YouSaid · the spoken record

Rachel Williams

lines on the record: 26
first: 2022-03-02
most recent: 2022-03-02
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“There is to some extent, but I think in Anna's case, it really seems like the illusion of Anna is what has won, this Netflix legacy almost of her, although from what I've been told that the television show isn't actually that good. But it does definitely glamorize her, and she did profit from it, but she herself was arrested by the immigration enforcement here in the United States because she's not a citizen and she overstayed her visa, and she's trying to appeal her deportation to Germany because she'd rather be here. So she herself is in jail right now. And I don't necessarily know how that will play out for her knowing Anna. She tends to get what she wants and she can be pretty convincing, but I guess I would say if it looks like she's winning, we're just not at the end yet.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“For me personally, yeah, I liked her as a person. She was funny, she's clever, she's smart, she's ambitious. I hate to give her all these compliments, but there's a reason people find her interesting. I think there is this caricature of which money is definitely a facet, but I personally never saw her throwing around cash and never went shopping with her. I think she really presented a different side of herself to each person she spent time with. And she was very good at sort of becoming whatever it is you needed in a friend.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“To do with materialism and money, and it's part of why it's now on Netflix. It's definitely part and parcel of the same fascination with this lifestyle that must have motivated Anna too at the offset to want to be a part of this flashy world.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It is to some extent when I was her friend, but I worked at Vanity Fair. I was used to traveling a lot for work. I had been around significant money before I personally obviously didn't have it. I say I was wealth adjacent. But with Anna, we mostly stayed in her hotel. We ate at Lakuku, which was this very decadent restaurant within her hotel often. And then, of course, when we went to Morocco, we stayed in one of the world's nicest resorts. But the way I've really seen wealth play out is more in the disparity of perspectives on the other side of the crime. The way that different people interpret whether bankers deserved it or financial companies deserved it, or if I deserved it because I'm young, white, and privileged, like, does that make the crime somehow less than a crime because I am not actually to some people in their minds hurting for the money or something? There's a real distraction to the story with Anna that has”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think you're right. And even when we think about her in the Art Foundation as having some grand plan, I think Anna is very good at being a chameleon and at playing these different parts, whether it's the penitent prisoner or the wannabe art aficionado. It's not to say that that isn't sincere when it's happening. I think I'm not inside of her head, thank goodness. But I think she has some level of obviously she seems to superficially understand what it is she's doing in the moment. I think the emotions are real, but I just don't think the longevity of an agenda is something that she's really capable of because I'm not quite sure she has that capacity for that level of profound reflection or forethought, really.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Feels very lazy and irresponsible, would be my answer. That's the world's largest streaming service. Personally, I don't see any excuse for them to have thought this was going to be okay. That said, I recognize what's happening. It doesn't make it okay. Looking at my Instagram right now, I'm just getting the nastiest of insults that have no basis in fact whatsoever. This is new to me. This does feel very upside down and surreal. I have not sleeping much. I'm okay. I'm surrounded by people who know and love me and understand also what's happening. So I think there's a different degree of openness and I feel much more prepared as much as anyone could be to sort of begin to navigate what to do next and to articulate the patterns of behavior that are happening here and to understand when people don't understand why that's happening. I guess I'm doing my best to explain it as it happens as loudly as I can, like banging pots and pans, hoping people will figure out that there's something bigger.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I could do. I didn't tell many people, it's so hard to tell a story like that. How do you even begin? And especially before you have any explanations yourself, because I could barely get through a day, let alone pause to explain every step I was trying and everything I'd already tried. I just didn't have the energy. I didn't have the wherewithal. I didn't sleep much. My hair was falling out. had to take loans from friends. It was definitely the most agonizing period of my life. And I understand that that's relative. I get that I'm privileged and I hate with this type of a crime you find yourself sort of defending the fact that you are wronged. Even like the jury has this preconceived notion of what a victim should be and how they ought to behave. And I really ran up against that.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Particular situation today feels a lot like an episode of Black Mirror. It's very surreal to me, but I think with this kind of a crime, people have seem to have this idea of what a victim is supposed to look like. Initially back in 2017, when Anna owed me, it was $62,000, which was more than I net annually at the time. And it was paralyzing, it was confusing. I really trusted her and I really was relying on her to follow through. I had no reason not to trust her at that point so far as I could tell, obviously. As the puzzles got more cryptic and as she got more elusive, it became very maddening and I think the quest to understand what was happening became just as strong as my need to resolve this enormous debt. So it was three agonizing months of panic attacks, telling American Express the same things she was telling me, which then made me feel like I was stringing them along too because I certainly was.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, obviously, it's violating, but it's also just hard to even internalize because it has so little to do with me as a person, but it's scary and you see how misinformation takes hold and spreads and it's very hard to correct a narrative like that. There's very little I can I feel that I could do, but I have two psychologists for parents and I've been through what I've been through with Anna once before. I've experienced what gaslighting feels like. And I think having now had however many years I went to Marrakesh in 2017, it's now 2022 to heal from that, I feel much stronger and more aware of what's happening. And I'm doing my best to sort of amplify a message about what it is, the different patterns of behavior involved with this. Because in some ways, who knows if I'll be able to make any sort of a difference? Quite a big machine that Netflix.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Struggle. I had to cut corners because of the rich were too rich or something, ignoring the fact that I wasn't rich. And people conveniently ignore nuance in order to tell a bigger, better story or whatever story it is they want to tell.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's not new that someone gets tricked and taken for a wild ride, but I think each time it happens, people sort of marvel at the sight of hand. And it also creates this foundation onto which people project their own interpretations of what happened. I think in some ways the story takes on a life of its own and it becomes richer and bigger and wilder than it actually was in real life. For example, from what I can tell based on attention from trolls I'm now receiving, I'm told Anna financed my life or bought me all these things. In reality, Anna never bought me an article of clothing. She never bought me any accessories. They just never happen. But I see how in my instance it was the criminal defenses way of weaving a narrative to try and justify her behavior where she was just trying to fake it until she could make it. You know, she didn't have the same advantage so many people in New York have. And look at her hustle, isn't she great? I think he kind of played off of this idea of every woman sort of.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I would argue, yes, obviously, I don't think everybody's going to be out $62,000, but I do think that there is something deep and troubling about the way that this sort of entertainment is slipping through the gates where it's neither documentary nor fiction. It's important to also look at who entertainment is benefiting, who's profiting in it, whose expense.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Absolutely. My character is essentially a straw man. It's troubling and it puts me in this weird position. I don't want to create the illusion of a Rachel versus Anna or a Rachel versus I'm so far past that point in my life I'd love to move on, but I do see the trouble with this sort of fact fiction braided narrative that's creating. It seems to me like a misinformation campaign and also one that affected real-time criminal justice proceedings. It's the same as watching the con, watching whether it's the private jets, the flashy, whatever it is. People are watching the spectacle of this in the same way they watched Anna during the trial and were making so much about what she was wearing and to me I'm so fixated on what's happening behind the scenes because I've been through this before and I know you get taken advantage of when you are relaxed, when you think there's nothing at stake. That's when it's going to happen. And it's never what you expect. That's how it works. It's subtle.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Not at the moment, the rights have reverted to me and it's not in production. And who knows what the future will bring, but at the moment that's a bit of a relief”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“No, I had nothing to do with it. I gave neither consent nor input, but I'm not sure what one is technically allowed to do. To me, this does seem over so many lines, but here we are.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Feel like my name has been inhabited by this stranger and you know, run amok through goodness knows what in front of who knows who and I'm getting so much animosity and hatred. Apparently someone maybe sets my character up as racist. It's a lot to navigate and it's also just very surreal. I laugh because it's so absurd, but it's really very troubling. And the kicker is that when it comes to my character as much as I want to sit here and nitpick every detail that's wrong, the reason I felt compelled to speak up, I'm hoping that people will start having the conversation is I think this is just part and parcel of a bigger picture issue here.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Front of each episode that says everything in the show is true except for everything that's not. I don't remember the exact language. It basically says this is fiction. In my mind, that creation of that half truth is actually more dangerous than a lie because people who are watching it can Google facts or find my full name. That's how belief is formed. You have emotional connection to these stories. You're being told. And a show like that by Seana Rimes with these wonderful actors, that's so much easier to connect with than watching the news or hearing someone tell their boring facts. So people really take that as truth. But my character in that show is she's told that she's being suspended from her job, her prose accuses her of being complicit with a convicted criminal and defrauding the company. None of that ever happened.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There's a lot to unpack there. At the time, Netflix had optioned this article by a writer named Jessica Presser. My book had been optioned by HBO. So when Netflix eventually did try to come to me to get the rights to adapt my piece of the puzzle, it was unavailable. I understand there are lots of different ways to tell a story. I certainly don't feel competitive over this space. Honestly, I want nothing to do with this space, but I found myself stuck in a narrative and part of the reason I'm still talking about it today is after having had a front row seat to the way that Anna's cons work, I now see the same pattern on a much bigger scale with regard to the way that storytelling is still being used to create a false narrative. I think people are referring to this as a documentary or a document, and it's absolutely not. It's fiction. They've done this very, to me, sort of troubling thing where they've cherry-picked names and facts, and then they put a disclaimer on.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It was but Anna was so good at immediately picking up a new narrative. In the same breath she told me Oh the manager sending you a receipt. It was a Friday, she said. Oh, why are you the money on Monday morning so you'll have it by the end of the weekend? So the alarm bells that immediately went off were instantly quelled by this sort of like fake promise that of course never realized.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Left that these managers arrived in the villa and wouldn't leave without a functioning credit card, and I was leaving before the rest of the group, I was told the final bill would be settled when they checked out. I thought it was going to be a temporary hold. There was just no other choice. But of course it was only after I left that I learned all the money had gone on my cards.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I haven't actually seen the full Netflix show. Maybe you know. I hope you realize I definitely didn't cooperate with it. I had no part of it. And I think that the character who plays me has pretty much the spelling of my name in common with who I am as a person. But when it came to Anna and the way that I ended up out that money, it wasn't like she'd ask me for a loan necessarily. It snowballed. It starts with a penny. And then once you're in for a penny, when we got to the airport on the way to America, she checked her wallet, which I know of course sounds like such an obvious thing now, but she was always a little messy. It wasn't outside of the realm of what she would do. Here I am still rationalizing the behavior. But then once she's borrowed money for meals or whatever it is, it becomes like, okay, well, we'll just add this next thing to it and you can reimburse it all at once. Of course, the hotel was something very different. I had begun covering costs outside of this hotel in Morocco because her cards weren't working, but it was only the day before I”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Problem obviously for me was when I was owed that enormous sum of money, and I kept asking for concrete, factual information. You know, why transfer numbers, federal reference numbers, cashier's check, times, things that actually were more concrete than these sort of abstract, it should be soon, I already sent it, I'm waiting on a call, those kind of ways she kept moving the goalpost back. But just because, you know, there's a problem doesn't mean you know what to do about it.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“To people who say that, I always just say, I hope you're right. But I think when we look at things in hindsight, everyone can pick the red flags out immediately. But when it happens in real time, it's not as though things are presented in this way that sets off alarm bells or else nobody would ever get conned. I think the thing that was surprising to me when all of a sudden I realized what was going on was that it wasn't as though I hadn't been paying attention. The way it works is I think con artists, or at least Anna, was a really masterful storyteller and she was very good at rationalizing her behavior and explaining away everything. She had a story for anything and she could come up with one very quickly as soon as you tried to get something direct in terms of information from her. is a big part of how she was able to keep the illusion going for so long in terms of the process of picking it away at a certain point you realize that there's a”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I do. I think that from my experience, I saw Anna sort of play life as if it were a game of chess. And to her other people seemed to be pawns. So I think that would ring true when it comes to sort of being thirsty for power versus money. It's all about how to advance her and her agenda.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Madam Mental Healthcare Professional, obviously, but I do think there is some degree of sort of a delusion there. But I think with someone like Anna, it seems to me that she doesn't understand why if she says something is so that it can't be. She uses her confidences as a way of almost manifesting whatever it is that she's going for. A lot of people sit and stare and wonder, well, was she really going to do the foundation or was she not? And the mystery and that sort of enigma is part of what I would argue is the con. It's part of the charade because it keeps you watching and guessing and while your brain is busy spinning in circles looking at that, she's busy doing something else.”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think the question about Anna as a character is probably more on the nose than we realize no matter whether you're talking about Netflix or just in regular life, given that she was posing as an heiress. She was and is very bold, ambitious, entitled, outgoing, sort of the polar opposite of me when I met her. She was living in New York in a hotel full-time. I was introduced to her through friends. I didn't think much of it because it's not as though she was wearing a name tag with all these quirky things we now know about her. The story of her piece together from different sources over the course of a year. And she had told people sort of seeding these little pieces of information and various circles that she was from Germany and her family was very wealthy and she had a trust fund and she was working on collecting art so that she could build this foundation and she had this very great”
2022-03-02 · Intelligence Squared · The Art of the Scam, with Rachel Williams and Erlend Ofte Arntsen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT