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Rich Liu

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58
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2023-06-07
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2023-06-07
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  1. “To drive more bundle size and basket within our customers right now to keep them sticky in an environment that is going to be more friction around buying and keeping pieces of hardware software, thinking creatively around how to actually build that expansion, that cross-sell into your sale up front. I think that was a great example of that. And you got a travel company to buy more software during a pandemic when the remedy went down to zero, I think is a pretty cool.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  2. “Was a while back, but I think one of the plays that I think really helped me even during the pandemic. So we bought people AI during the pandemic at Trip Action Steven. And it was initially to go get like contact capture so we can build our database to go track activity and go better do marketing to those folks. And they do this thing where they did the like, hey, we know you don't want to buy this expensive analytics offering, but we think it can give you some insights. And I'm like, no, I got a great analytics team. CKCU is the best on the planet. Role the size, like amazing. Like we got our own stack. We're good. And they were like, well, we'll give it to you for free for six months. Just try it out. Like we'll help you implement it and stand it up. And if it's anything other than amazing, like, you know, but they built it in the contract. So it's like premium and an enterprise software sale. They built a freemium thing into the contract. They worked with us to stand it up and make it successful. And sure enough, we signed a check to do the broader platform buy after that was done despite a lot of skepticism on my part that it was valuable. Now that's not to say that's the only way to do it, but in a world where we're trying.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  3. “Oh gosh, more people get into it instead of feeling like when I got into sales, I was a gangly engineering student from Yale and I had this understanding that it was for like slick, well-spoken white guys that could tell the story the right way. And I had that chip on my shoulder. And I would say that I would love to see more people considered as a career coming out of any major with any background because it's an amazing career. I've learned a ton. I've met some really cool people doing it. And the reason I'm still doing it is because I keep learning and I keep figuring out ways to do it differently. And in an environment where maybe AI is going to take our jobs, ability to go connect with people in a real way, the ability to go show value, the ability to go do deep discount. I think that's at a premium.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  4. “Be quick in identifying and driving alignment with the CEO or founder or your boss, what are the most important things we can get done this quarter and what are the one or two metrics that I need to show you to show that we're doing this right?”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  5. “The biggest mistake, I think, is hiring a head of what you actually have conviction to do. You think you are ready to scale and you're not ready to drive efficiency scale. The second is just hiring a leader that is not really well suited to what you need done in terms of what you need to accomplish in the next 12 to 18 months, not 24 to 36, and not moving quickly enough to go make changes if it's not working.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  6. “Would say for me right now, having that perfectly crafted email, hey, I did a great YUI now. It's two paragraphs. I've done a lot of research. Or I've done the cheap thing where it's like, hey, you went to EL, you're the captain of the volleyball team. What do you think about Yale volleyball this year?”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  7. “I would say I'm a huge fan of force management and that the value framework, you know, whether it's force management, whether it's like challenge or selling, that idea of needing to attach do enough pain-based discovery to figure out what are the most important problems or worries or fears or existential threats that company is facing, that the CEO is facing, that the economic buyer in your org is facing, like doing that level of pain-based discovery has not changed and actually getting to that true, I don't know, Sandler calls like level three pain of like, what is the true business pain and figuring out how to map what you do, your service, your platform, really back directly to that in a quantifiable way, that has not changed.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  8. “Now and take a fresh look at it. That is what I think everyone should be doing in your entire sort of mid stage pipe and building into your early qualification deal process or sales process if you don't have it. Those are the things I'm seeing in different sales, different industries, different velocities. It could be different things. But that's the thing that's going to keep us from getting surprised around, hey, I had this pipe and I had this, thought I had this great pipe coverage. It turned out it was like fake pipe and just slipped out.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  9. “Now is the time more than ever to go inspect what is real and what is not because things that might have been a deal that you could feel 50%, 75%, 90% confident in a year ago might not close at all this year or might get delayed this year. So like the difference between deals pushing, deals not closing at all, or deals coming in way smaller is do I have direct access to an EB? Do I have a real business case or am I selling it off of a cool? This is a nice product we'd love to have. If I'm doing that kind of inspection for true business case direct access to EB, do I have a closed plan in front of them or an evaluation plan that we've talked about? By this date, we will do this. By this date, we will do that. You are looking for these three things to go make a decision. These are who the people are who are going to make the decision by this date. And this is what we will show them. If we don't have that, even if it was a good deal last year, it's probably not going to close this year and it's definitely not going to close on time. So that level of inspection of your midstage pipe and what are the things in your sale you need to have a deal right now.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  10. “Get to 90% of that crazy stretch target, man. It feels like, oh, we run ourselves ragged and we still didn't hit it. You know, maybe the board's like, oh, how come you didn't hit this target? And meanwhile, growing 4x on a 5x target might have been freaking amazing taking all the weird expectations out of it. I've certainly fallen into that camp. That's one of the biggest things that I've done as a sales leader. So I think it's just so important to get no daylight between what we think is possible, what the appropriate amount of stretches, so that we set the expectations around the right way. We motivate the team the right way. They have the right feelings of winning. We set the board expectations and company expectations the right way. And most importantly, in this environment, we're investing the right way because the worst thing is I invest for 2x growth here and I grow, want to have half X and I took the cost to grow 2x and I grew.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  11. “This is one where probably good advice for founders and for sales leaders and heads of sales are just getting really aligned on expectations and what's possible, what's not. So number one is I talk to a lot of early stage go-to-market leaders and early stage founders who will tell me the flip side of this same question, which is like, what's possible? I was talking to a founder and he had just churned out ahead of sales. He's like, I want to push them hard. I want to make sure that we're striving and we're, you know, this is like a 10x type of year. We should run 5x this year. I believe the product is so good that it should be doing that. His sales leader didn't have that belief. His sales leader is like, hey, I think this is like a 2x here, one and a half x here, 50% growth year. Here's why. And there was that gap between what each side thought was possible. And instead of solving that and figuring out a target, the CEO founder sets a target that's like crazy high. Sales leader is like, I don't have the confidence to push back or bring this to a header leave and takes that. And we'll bend over backwards to try to make it happen, see what happens. And then even if you.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  12. “Yeah, there's as tactical as activity, but if we could set up basic Salesforce reporting on how many ops they're generating, good roll of thumb is like an AE in my book should be generating at least a new op a week by themselves without SDRs, without marketing, helping them in an enterprise software sale outbound sale. Are you at least doing one op a week? If you're not, okay, are you doing activity? How are you doing it? Do you actually know how to do it? That's the hardest part of selling. If they don't have either the appetite or the skill to do that, you better get it fast because you're not going to work here. And granted, we should be vetting for that in our hiring process going back to what we just talked about. That's number one. Number two is when they just don't seem to grok the product. If I can't grok the like talk track, how to talk about it, how to use the product, how to share it, yes, and we talked about not going straight to a product-led sale, a driven sale, but if they're not showing that at a pretty fundamental level and quickly grappling onto those sound bites, talk tracks, that's usually the big red flag for me. So between those two, those are pretty early because those are the precursors to can you actually get pipe? Can you actually build lates?”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  13. “Correct. If they are not doing, if they're not doing it early in their tenure, that's a sign. If you've set up an expectation that they should be doing it, to me, that's a big one.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  14. “Don't do PG number one. They don't generate their own pipeline. They won't make the calls. They won't actually get out there and get their hands dirty.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  15. “I think there's a few places that comes up. Number one is you never had true buy-in to start with. You didn't do the deal the right way, yet you're trying to prosecute and just go through the sales stages. I'll send out contracts, boss. I got 10 contracts out, all right. Are anyone going to sign by when? By what? Actually trying to do the contracting and the like operational sale without actually getting over the hump with your champion, with your economic buyer, with a business case that matters. That's a huge issue, particularly right now in a changing market. A second one is not getting to the economic buyer and actually selling to them. Right now the, oh, I got the EB back behind the scenes. That's not a true champion. You don't have a deal. Those are probably the things that are hurting deals the most right now in this current environment, in this changing environment.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  16. “Yes, we do them. Bad deal review is everybody get in a room. Let's go talk about the deal, see what happened. Great deal review. Let's actually go through and use a framework, any framework. MedPIC, you build your own, right? Command of the message, create.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  17. “Yes. If I'm running a PLG, don't waste your time getting into these cycles of discounting and not. But if I'm running like an enterprise sale, I like to hold a high list and then figure out how I need to discount to still protect a premium and get the deal done. I'm going to discount aggressively if I need to break in a new space and market, but I need to know why I'm doing that and the trade-off again because now I'm eating CAC effectively.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  18. “Is the model I'm trying to run, right? Every approach has trade offs. It's a crowded race, it's a knife fight. We got to capture share. I'm going to do the lowest that I can possibly maintain from a margin standpoint to capture that share and do it efficiently, then raise the prices. Is it a, hey, we think we built even in a crowded space the best product, it's at a premium. I can clearly tell a story that is defensible and differentiated when I get into that room with the CFO and tell them why it should be worth more. Those are pretty different approaches. A lot of the founders I speak with will probably tell me, hey, we and Everlaw is the same way. We think we built the best product. We think we have the best team. We demonstrably get in the room and people say, yep, you guys are the best product. You built the best thing by far. Then it becomes a question of how much of a premium can I charge for it, right? And that premium depends on how well I can tell the story, quantify the value, have proven results for delivery.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  19. “As it translates to us, it's this role, this title. And it's okay to say, look, I recognize you can get that SUP CROCO offer somewhere else. This is what this offer is. This is why I believe it's meaningful, the vision that we're selling, the future that we're going to create, the opportunities you'll have to grow and learn, opportunities to work with me, whatever those things are, to be really clear what they're getting there. But don't get caught into the like, I got to do this title of this offer just because somewhere else. And if you do, do so knowingly. I'm trading off that I'm giving this higher title to someone, some person that I might need to up level later because now I can't bring someone on top because I've given this title. I've given this comp. I think that's really important to keep in mind. And sometimes it's easy to say, okay, I just need to do this to get someone. And there you go. And I'm a huge proponent of being intellectually honest and bringing the people around you if you're a founder to help you do that, right? Your advisors who know go to market, your investors, the executive recruiters who again might have a bit of a conflict of interest in some way.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  20. “At a company that may or may not be similar at similar scale, similar problems to solve, that doesn't necessarily qualify me for the job. So I would be really clear around like, let's make sure what you need in the job is like based on I need to solve this end of the journey. Build a first sales order, go from first to second line leadership, take us from early adopter to mainstream, as we were doing at Navan when I joined. These are the things I need done. Okay, great. What scope a person do I need for that? And what is the right titling for that? And what is the comp for that? Be really clear about that and then make sure that the person you are hiring actually fits that description titles aside, experience aside, and that's what you want to use your interview process to go solve for. We've had people who I've hired, hey, this is a, let's call it strategic sales director RVP role. And that person might have that title at another company or a bigger title. And they're saying, no, I should be an SVP. Okay, great. You can go with them on that, or you could say, well, based on the work you're doing, based on the scope.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  21. “I would say number one is sometimes I hear founders say, oh, that person's like getting an offer from so and so or they're competing with so-and-so. I got to compete with this and to get over anchored into throwing the kitchen sink and giving half the company to go get them. There are some good benchmarks out there for any role AE, CSM, marketer, you know, partnerships person, ops person, strategy person. So trust that all VCs, all the town folks and recruiters will give you that. The bigger question is also trying to figure out, is the person actually at that level and with that experience that you are comfortable making that offer to them? I think a lot of the call it offer inflation out there that we had seen the last few years was like, okay, anybody can be a VP sales zero zero at a series A, whatever company, the whole titling thing got thrown out of whack because inflation is out there. Another thing is, okay, do the job for a year. Does that make me a great COO? Because I got the title now at one place.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  22. “I know sometimes people do the back channel thing has mixed emotions out there. But I would say if we know someone who we trust that has worked with that person, it's obviously not going to blow them up, that I trust in my network, I sure as hell want to figure out some signal. References you can easily give someone who's going to sing my praises. Tell me if Harry's good or not. Hey, Harry's awesome. Cool. Thanks. Bye. What does Harry do well? What are the areas that you were coaching Harry in? What are the ways that others worked with him? You know, what are those things that actually get it out? And I set it up by saying, hey, I want to make sure this person set up for success here that we're the right fit for them so that we don't put them in the wrong type of company. So the more direct you'll be with me, the more open you'll be with me, the more we can figure out that for this human who I know you love and like and trust, that's the best fit for this.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  23. “I've done both. Obviously, with your company, you can see if they can quickly do the research, assimilate all the information they get with how to pitch it, figure out the product, and pitch it back to you. If you do their product, you can demonstrate more about how they would run the meeting, how they would do the discovery, how they would practice these core sales skills. So it really depends on what you would want to get out of it more. And actually, I might do either one depending on, do I have questions of if this person's either smart enough to do my sale or motivated enough to go do the research or is putting together the pieces or can actually help tell my story in a way that's better that I haven't thought about yet? If I have questions on core salesmanship or salespersonship, I might have them do theirs and I can play into their role or I might do a little bit of both. We're going to spend 15 minutes on a meeting here and then we're going to do like a quick five minute if your prospecting and doing PG, how would you help PG to take a meeting and go do our product? But that exercise is super important. And then finally, like references and backchannel.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  24. “For example, but again, interviews, structured interviews is only half the story and don't actually give you much. Having an exercise that really, and you don't have to be a big company to do this, what is something that they would actually do that mimics what they would need to do in the role? Hey, here's a scenario. Make a cold”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  25. “Yeah, job changes, a lot of job changing, huge red flag for me at some point. Everybody's got a good reason. But if you say do one or two year stints for like several in a row, that's a huge red flag. Performance, great sales reps know exactly how they did every year. Like I can tell you, okay, in this year, in 2007, I did this and I made this amount of money. I was number one on the sales board. I was number two on the sales board no three. John Hullick beat me. Damn him. He's an awesome dude. But ah, I missed out because of X. Like salespeople know their numbers. If they can't quickly rattle and tell you those things or they start to hemming ha, that's an interesting signal when you start digging into track record.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  26. “In your next deal. Did you do anything with that? Oh, that was a one off. That was a one off, Harry. It was going to happen. That's a very different response than, oh, I started to do things differently. I go work with my manager earlier to look at the deals and the deal reviews. I'm actually going to use these lines to go get to the EB earlier. And this is why. So you can actually, without leading, see how they respond. And when you ask them, then what? Tell me more, tell me more, you can get some more color around that.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  27. “Give you much. Any great salesperson can hear me up past that. Coachability, those are like hard to ask. How do you do that? Tell me about a situation where you were stuck in a deal. Why were you stuck? What happened? What did you do next? What'd you do to get help? Well, how did you react to this? Don't lead them to what did you do to get help? Oh, help. I went to so and so. What'd you do in that situation? Did they engage the manager? Did they engage an essay? Did they go talk to partners outside? To go figure out how to go crack that open? Okay, then what happened? Then what happened? Then what happened? And you can design these questions to start talking about, okay, what is it in a real life situation in my role? What would I want them to do in that scenario to see if the classic one is, hey, you lost a deal? What happened? I'm looking for humanity. Oh, you know, all these other things happen. It wasn't built right and externalization, externalization, externalization. Or I really should have seen this. I didn't do that. I learned that I should have gotten to the EB earlier. Okay, how'd you not go to the EB earlier? Well, I thought I had a great champion they were going to get the deal done. Oh, interesting. What did you do with that?”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  28. “How do you actually vet for that? So, again, I'll go to the other pieces, but track record, and by the way, a lot of people screw that. Like a lot of people leave a lot on the table for like, hey, how'd you do? Oh, I was a top rap. I was this, that, that. And they stop there. Everybody, every salesperson can tell you how they were the top. And then the question that don't get asked are like, oh, what were the metrics that you were measured on? Okay, how did you do on that? Great. How many other reps were there in that cohort in that region? I was a top of my region. I was a top 5%. Oh, it was the top of two reps. Cool. That doesn't tell me much, right? I was a top one of 10 reps on new business sales and the average attainment I did was 120 and the average attainment they did was 80. Oh, that's actually valuable. Asking those clarifying questions over what period? What was the metric? How are you measured? How many people were in that cohort? How well do the others do? So you can actually get a real sense of like repeatability quarter after quarter after quarter year after year after year rollout to roll after roll. That's actually really important so that we don't stop at, hey, I was a top achiever. Cool. Done. That doesn't.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  29. “Same interviewer so that you can get some calibration between candidates that's really important. So if you build out a light structured interview process, say it's, I don't know, three interviewers, one for track record of achievement, one for this linear execution, coachability”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  30. “It and then let's actually break down a process that helps us vet for those skills in an effective way. An interviews, by the way, if you think about it, they're actually a pretty ineffective way to understand if someone's going to be good at something, right? Whoever interviews well gets a job, but that doesn't mean they are a great engineer and they're a great CSM or they're a great marketer. They interview really well. They're great in the room and I'm terrible in the room. So that's why I say that. But what I need to do is design a process that bets for that. So say I decide, okay, for my enterprise AEs, I need really strong operational linear execution. I need strong coachability. I need great in-the-room skills. Let's actually vet for that designing number one structured interview questions that vet for, oh, tell me how you had driven situation action result, right? Tell me how you drove this type of interaction, what you did, what was the result, how did you do it? Having those structured questions that vet for those specific skills, and then knowing what a good answer looks like, what a bad answer looks like, and then making sure to ask that question at every time and ideally with.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  31. “I take a lot of my hiring philosophy from Mule Soft of all places. My wife was a longtime Googler and was famous for doing their executive committee as to approve every hire. The simple thing that I would say from my MuleSup days and Greg Schott, if you're ever listening, thank you for the religion on this. People are the most, it's an adage, it's oversaid. It's a cliche. People are the most important thing. That was what that company did better than anything else is figuring out not the product, not anything else, but hiring the best people and then figuring out how to utilize them and how to do that is number one is what do you actually need to do in this job? Not just make calls or all that, but what are the like outcomes that you want this job to have? Help me figure out the narrative, help me break into new customers in an evangelical sale versus a sort of a more tactical. We already know how we're going to sell at sale. Is it a product sale? I need someone to go spice someone up and get them to believe in the world's round when everybody thinks it's flat. What are those things you actually need done? And then let's actually break that down into skills that support.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  32. “Well, but just don't try to jump too far ahead of where the product is ready, where your success org is ready for where your services org is ready. That motion, if done right, I think, can be super effective.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  33. “A good question. The intellectual answer would be it depends on which space you're in and what your DNA is. If I'm building a security company doing enterprise security, I should probably start at the top of the market and then go down because that's where the inherent need is biggest. And if I'm building like an ads business, right, it's an online ads business publisher like Facebook going bottoms up was absolutely right. So I would say a lotteries depending on what space you're going after, if you're going to ask me personally what I think is easier, personally, I think it's easier to start small and go up.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  34. “With a different go to market motion, think with a different marketing motion. You're not doing multi-touch attribution, lead gen, marketing. You're doing consumer marketing.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  35. “And had actually a lot of largest accounts in the earlier days Zyingga, Plato, Living Social, right, Groupon, the performance advertisers, because they weren't out there selling Nike and Walmart and crushing that yet. They were helping the early advertisers find a lot of success doing that. That's a fundamentally different motion than let's go take someone in a Super Bowl game. Let's go build this great I.O. Let's go create this great creative pitch with the creative agencies to sell in. So that's just one example, but you build a product inherently differently and to start to say like, oh, we're going to do that well and have a really enterprise ready product is really hard. We will solve some other side of that, right? Heavy, large enterprise integration APIs work inherently better for larger companies that have a bigger need than sort of small startups when you think about sort of enterprise corporate IT for a company that has not built a product that is meant to solve for like anybody can come and use it like Zappier type of citizen integrator to say, oh, let's all of a sudden think with a different DNA.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  36. “Would say it's for operational definitional purposes, let's say enterprise meaning couple hundred thousand, a few hundred thousand dollars sales rep in a long, protracted six to 12 month sales cycle, and PLG will call sort of pure sort of online self-sell, self-serve. And then there's probably something in the middle of it, which is like the velocity sales assist or inside or inside-outside hybrid model. So again, I agree, it's really hard to do both well, right? And it comes back to even how you design your product. So Facebook ads is inherently a self-served platform, right? Built self-serve first. You can use it self-serve. You can now self onboard. And so the way that you built the people org around that naturally is, okay, let's make sure we can get everybody self serving and then using that as your funnel to figure out, oh, who are at the bigger spenders, who has higher potential spend, who's doing interesting things that we can then build back into the product, and then how can we use humans to augment the effectiveness those people are having to go extend them out? And that was what Facebook's mid-market.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  37. “I'm a big fan of two at a time, right? Again, this is the engineer me coming out. The two at a time thing, right? So much goodness comes out of it. First of all, if you don't have enough conviction in your business that you're hiring a rep that they'll go hire too, get to the point where you think you have enough for two versus one because ultimately you're splitting hairs if you're like, oh, I think I can support one rep, not two. Fundraise, get more conviction, the product, the story, whatever. But the two point is just so valuable because cohorting in terms of ramping, the supporting each other, the ramping the competitive elements of it, it's really hard to know, is my product market fit fundamentally wrong? Is the way I'm telling the story fundamentally wrong? Is the PG messaging I'm using fundamentally wrong? Or is it the rep that sucks or the rep that can figure it out? Having two helps to at least give you the minimum viable, separate the two and give you a little bit of signal about what's happening, right? Now, again, if you hire two great reps, awesome. You have two bad reps, maybe you got to press restart and do it again, but at least it helps to neutralize for that.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  38. “Biggest fuck ups would be one is staying too close. I speak sometimes with founders who have 10 sales reps reporting directly to them. Makes no sense. Five sales reps reporting makes no sense. It completely impedes. And then you also build this like sales model where like you are de facto head of sales or head of revenue and you're starting to play in territory that you might not be good at in terms of coaching and developing and holding accountability metrics all that stuff. So I think that to me is a hey you maybe moved a little too slowly against it too quickly would be a couple flavors one is you hire someone who's like really large scale that has aspirations to be an early startup, thinks it's cool to be in an early startup. They don't really know what to do or they can't do it without hiring a bunch of other people to do it. That's a telltale sign of this person's too far or has been too far from it for too long and either isn't willing or able to go step back and get their hands to the degree I need done. Build me a sales plan for scratch. I don't have an FPNA team or CFO. I got Google Docs. Let's build a”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  39. “Probably depends on how much conviction you have that what you have is ready for that, right? Jumping ahead from that first player coach or person to go do it with me to the first person who's like more of a coach than a player and going to have a team of people doing it, I probably have to be comfortable putting those that amount of chips on the table. I don't gamble, but like I've been to Vegas. I have chips on the table instead of one. I got to have enough conviction that I have enough to go build those five reps around that's going to give me the momentum to go learn it faster bookings against it.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  40. “The title out the window for a moment. I think that first hire when I'm looking to scale, I'm looking to scale me out as a founder. I'm trying to figure out how do I get someone who can continue to help me shape this message because it's not all done yet, right? I speak about it sometimes like it's binary. It's not. To help scale and continue to refine the go-to-market and can give me some scale so that I'm not doing all the sales so that I have someone who's close enough to me that's given the feedback back so that we can iterate on that story on the ICP on the product market fit yet is helping me do more of those sales. To me, that could be a player coach. It could be a player who's stretching in a player coach. It could be someone who has that sort of creativity, but also can get out in front of the customers and help me continue to hone that message. The next role would be the person who can probably run that first line team and continue to help shape that narrative, but also manage a few people to do that, right? And again, where you are in that spectrum of you're hiring that first player to help you or that first player coach to help you.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  41. “What am I inspiring them about? What's the story, right? And I met a lot of founders out there that they might have a big vision of the problem they want to solve, and then it gets really murky after that. I don't want to go work with that founder unless we've actually done a little bit of legwork to show there's some MVP of a go-to-market, of a something that works there. And frankly, I've also worked with founders who you said you can't raise money in the previous funding environment I've talked to and have friends who are founders that actually did raise money. And guess what? They had a murky version of it that maybe they might have had some initial product market or product customer some problem they were solving for some people, but maybe it wasn't big enough or maybe it wasn't meaningful enough. Maybe it wasn't going to catch in any market. And guess what? They start scaling a team around it and then 6, 12, 24 months later, they go, oh, we're not in the right business. We're not in the right thing. I can't go back now because I've already committed to this path. What do you do then? Give the money back to the investors. Fold up shop. Pivot.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  42. “Actually, help to scale that motion out. Now, if you have an early stage salesperson, maybe it's an IC, maybe it's a team lead, maybe it's a player coach, you got to be really close to that person to make sure those learnings are”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  43. “If you're at that stage where you're still figuring out that question of what is the problem my product solves and for whom, right? What industry, what use case, what profile a person, what region, if I'm still at that place where I feel like that's not a really repeatable motion and able to do at scale, if I'm a product founder, I got to be close enough to help make sure that whatever is happening and whatever learnings we're getting is translating back so that that product led version of that product, market or product customer fit is lights out and tight at least at the tightest ICP before you scale it out. If you're trying to go bring in a head of sales to outsource that for you at that stage, that's pretty dangerous. Ariel at Navan was really involved with a lot of the earliest deals and knew the product, knew the people really well to the point where he got a really clear view of, ooh, this is our problem we solved for whom this is how we'll talk about it. And then at that stage, let's say the CR is coming in.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  44. “How do I help map the ore? How do I help ask tactical questions to figure out what our adoption is or is it? How do I get some preview into other parts of the org that can be using us or that can utilize different parts of the stack? Give them some of those plays that they can start to see that and actually build it from the existing potentially tactical relationship out. So I think it's a two-pronged thing, but either way, without tying clearly to value, quantifiable value and agreement about that value is, that relationship's going to be at risk.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  45. “So, how do you do that in the post sale if a lot of your customer base didn't buy that way? That means, oh, we got to go figure out how to actually build that from the ground up, the bottom up. Oh, let's actually have a conversation around what is ROI? How do you measure it? What are the metrics that you think you should use that we think you should use? And let's agree on what that looks like. Let's actually set the tone of what good looks like within that. Let's make sure your CFO or CIO or whoever it's going to ultimately say yes or no is bought into that as well. And so we almost have to like redo the sale the right way with the value message, with the EB engagement. Then when we hadn't done it in the front, which is tougher, right? Are you using McCam Manager to do it? Are you using CSM to do it? Are you using AEM horsepower to do it? And then on this pure CS side, even if the profile of our CS rep is make them super successful, help support them, get them launched and implemented, service the admin, the question is, oh, how do we arm that profile of person with enough commercial mindset and tooling and playbooking to say, oh.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  46. “Yeah, so a couple things right now, though, the default is the same thing that happens on the pre-sale side is happening on the post-sales side, right? How am I rationalizing the use of this tool, the tool to this degree? What am I actually getting out of it? Can we clean out a bunch of this SAS proliferation across the company? That is coming across pre and post sale. And so the impact on renewals for the successful work is we need to have a true business justification if we're going to expect that customer to stay with us. Think about it as the converse or the mirror image of what needs to happen on the sales side and why the sales and success side needs to be tightly intertwined. If a lot of these deals, think about how we were doing deals like early days of trip actions, Navan or early days of Everblaw, awesome product. It's great. You sold to early days of mule soft, right? Sold to a developer who's using it for a project. CIO CIO doesn't care about that, right? They want to centralize on a tool. They don't see it's valuable. Like they don't care who bought it and what lower level mid-level person bought it.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  47. “Actually, better or worse with an SDR lead or a marketing inbound or an AE outbound if I say they're going to spend a quarter of their time doing pipeline generation. That's the kind of effort that I think did just start having that conversation and actually making those trade-offs even if you're a startup to a late stage private company to a public company. That version of that conversation needs to happen. And then we can decide for ourselves, how do we make some decisions about where we want to invest and don't want to invest in the spirit of what's going to drive efficient growth and productive growth?”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  48. “Yeah, I think right now every founder, every board member, every CFO is being pushed to say, okay, in this shift from grow to shift to productive growth, what is the operating envelope that we can play in right now? I think we're looking right now sales leaders, COO, CBOs, whatever the title is of the person that runs a go-to-market is being asked to say, hey, how do you demonstrate that you are building an effective and productive go-to-market on a per rep basis, on a per se basis? whether it's my support org, my CS org, my AEs, my SDRs, my partner people, I'm trying to figure out how do I actually measure the effectiveness and productivity of that org. Bookings per head rep, source dollars per marketing spend. If I can start to normalize those investments to metrics that actually matter and I can start comparing to each other, then I can start making the trade-offs of, wow, is my cost per booking or new booking customer or new booking dollar? Is that accurate?”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  49. “Spent. Right now, my CFO is going to know that's just some other piece of stack that the sales team wants to buy to make their jobs a little easier. Don't do it. Use the tools you have already. Do it in GDOS, whatever the case is. Use your CRM. I just need to figure out how I can map that story back to what is that CFO care about, operating more efficiently, sales productivity if I actually invest in this thing, it's going to make my sales team that much more productive in a proven out way with these data points and with these sound bites.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  50. “If I'm a founder and that's the environment I'm in right now and I advise and invest in a number of companies who are going through this exact same thing right now, right? The sale is real different for sales automation or whatever the technology is just six or 12 months ago. Right now, I need to figure out what is the problem my product solves and for whom. Getting back to that exact, okay, what is the problem I solve and for whom and how do I quantify that thing and how do I make sure that problem I solve is actually something that the CFO, the CEO, the COO actually cares about right now cutting costs, running an efficient business, sales productivity, margin. I need to be able to make sure I can map back my narrative of what my product does to that big thing. And unless I can do that, I'm not going to get in the road. How do I map that back right now? So I'm sitting with Jonathan Friedman at DemoStack a couple weeks ago and he's like, hey, we're trying to work on this thing. Great. Okay, you have a tool that helps people create demos or you have a scratch pad that helps people shrink down the size of time.”

    2023-06-07 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source