YouSaid · the spoken record

Sara Paretsky

lines on the record: 64
first: 2023-12-14
most recent: 2023-12-14
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Do things that are liberating that just allow the imagination to soar, it just gives you so much better a society, people feel free and can just take chances and creativity can be such a liberating outlet instead of anger and need and poverty and all these other things that we seem to prefer as a society.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What I wanted, our mission is to support Children in the arts, letters, sciences, and also to support reproductive rights. And so initially we were looking at programs that we don't accept requests for funding. We give money to existing programs. We support a small feminist press, antloot press. We support one of my favorite programs is Girls in the Game, which is an after school program that uses sports to help girls in Chicago public schools with all the kinds of issues that children face these days. But sadly, because of the political wins, we've had to give more and bigger and bigger fraction of our giving. It's gone to reproductive health. And in a way, I really resent that because I just feel like helping kids and helping women”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And I'm writing something that I hope will be just kind of more for fun, although as I wasn't sleeping last night, I was thinking, oh no, poor Lily, my 75-year-old ex-CIA agent, she was supposed to be carefree, but she's already not”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I think it's part of the issue with the book that I'm publishing in April is that my own kind of exhaustion and sense of pain filtered too much into the novel. And that's why I'm turning away from VR for a while.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Terrified about the future of all rights in this country and women's rights are always kind of the first to be jettisoned, especially for women of color. So I'm not able to, I don't have the strength or the time or the stamina to be as aggressively active as I did, although I spent the second half of 2022 working on different campaigns to do my part to keep reproductive health as well.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Oh, I'm both exhausted and enraged at the same time. I'm so tired of the two. Visions of women as either hooters, waitresses, revealing everything in their bodies to the public or as incubators, but not as human beings with lives, rights, voices. I am so tired of it. And you know here at the University of Chicago Law School is one of the men who drafted that Texas law. Can't remember his name now, but so, yep, they're pretty proud of themselves. And I guess I have to say that the last eight years I have spent being depressed and terrified and equal measures with the assault on rights across the board, the stacking of federal courts with people with absolutely no competence or experience, but only a particular ideological viewpoint.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“A major publication than one by a woman. And this means libraries don't know you, bookstores, don't know you. And so you go out of print very rapidly. So we really addressed that, but organizations started. I was hearing all of these complaints and I thought of Flo Kennedy's great line, don't agonize, organize. I held a breakfast at our big national conference and invited all the women I knew and said, you know, either we need to start an organization to fight this or we just stop whining and go about our business. And so everyone wanted to do this. And so that was where we started.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I said, nope, I spent all my spare time on abortion activism, and my husband does all the housework. That actually wasn't true, but kind of ended that conversation. But anyway, so just lots of disrespect of women as writers, which translated into women not getting their books reviewed, as we found when we became an organization and started studying it. We found a crime novel by a man was seven times more likely to be reviewed.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Conference and made some quite aggressive statements about women in the mystery field. I just published two books at that time. And then I became a lightning rod for both pro and con what was going on with women in the mystery. And I started getting letters and phone calls from women all over the country. Had I said this, had I advocated censorship? Had I advocated burning books, all the things that kind of segueed out of some smart ass remarks I made in public. And then I started hearing from all of the ways in which women were disrespected as writers. And I mean, I myself, I was at one conference where my dinner partner, the dinner man, said, was I married? And I said, yes. And he said, well, it's good that you have this hobby so that you don't bother your husband when he comes home from work. I was like.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“25 people showed up for the initial meeting. So, you know, I had been both lackfidence and I at the same time run my mouth too much. And then I'm always shocked at what I've actually said. Anyway, I was at a.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's now being run by very dynamic young women. It's doing, I'm so impressed with the current generation of leadership, but we now have something like 5,000 members worldwide.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right. So I don't do as much as I used to. I just don't have the energy, which is really frustrating and annoying. I guess my husband always felt that I spread myself too thin and that my books did more good than my activism did. But I've never felt that I was doing enough. So I guess some of the things that I've been involved in professionally, I started an organization that's an advocacy organization for women in the crime fiction field, sisters in crime.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right. And also, you know, now it just seems funny to me, but gosh, like, I hadn't had a raise for two and a half years, but they were paying someone to monitor everything I said. That made me feel good. I was like, okay, all that money that I didn't get paid in raises. And I was the top seller of computers to insurance agents in my division that.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, of course, anyone. Supported by lawyers, person who doesn't relish the idea of going into a courtroom would feel threatened by vague threats of litigation.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I felt like it was like Goldilocks. Some people are too creative, some people aren't creative enough, but someone, we had to have someone who was just right. And then, oh God, maybe I shouldn't even be saying this on the air, but I said this in an interview about a year after I had resigned and I got a letter from their legal department saying we monitor everything that you're saying about the company, threatening me with some kind of vague consequences if I badmouth the company. I was like, so my editor, who was a wonderful woman, was married to one of the top litigators in the country. And Jay kindly wrote them a letter basically saying, get alive, guys.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah. Anyway, my last performance review was really funny to me. They had brought in consultant to, they felt their management teams were not creative enough. And so they brought in some consultants to help middle management become more creative. And then I had my final performance review before I resigned was that I was too creative to be happy at the company.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, that's also complicated. They felt that I was had split loyalties and that I wasn't giving a thousand percent to the company.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't think about it in that way. I think about it in an emotional way. I think in this conversation with this feeling in it, and then I actually physically feel it often in my hands. If a confrontation is feeling too Violent. I need to dial it back because it's a level of violence. It isn't appropriate for that confrontation or also, you know, the old architectural slogan less is more. It's something that I constantly try to keep in mind. I override a lot and then I have to. Trim it back and pull it back. And sometimes, you know, a more authentic emotion will come from less being said than more being said. So it's more feeling what the characters are feeling and then speech coming out of feeling.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Also, a mystery rider. And he was really a good mentor. I had written 70 pages of what became indemnity only. And then I thought, oh, I don't know what I'm doing, blah, blah. And then a coworker told me about his class, knew what I was trying to do. And he was very helpful. I mean, with things like dialogue, and I was using all these 30s tropes and he said, no, you've got to make it your voice now. And so really he was enormously helpful in shaping how I was doing what I was doing.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And you know, she mostly succeeds, at least in a small way. Stu Kaminski, who was the person who taught the class that you mentioned at Northwestern.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Having someone break down in my arms, describing what had happened to him and the loss of his sense of himself as a man. So I had to write that. And I really think that that was my most authentic book.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Of suspects in custody. So he was not, I don't even know the right adjectives to say he was not a bleeding heart. He was dismissive at first of claims of torture. He said, oh, police always rough someone up and they claim they've been tortured. And then he saw the characteristic burn marks from having had alligator clips put in the ears and having had an electric current run through them. It completely changed him. And he became an expert on torture. He was an internationally Sought after person to do autopsies to prove or disprove claims of torture and custody. He started important institutes in the USN in Tel Aviv for victims of torture. So it was through him that I became very invested in what was happening and the whole 20-year cycle of the city covering it up and then talking to people who actually had been”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, the books of mine that I think I've done the best job with come out of that place. And I wrote a book called Hardball, which is probably my personal favorite among my books because it's really grounded in that summer of 66. The whole storyline is, but also, did you know Bob Kirschner? He was the chief deputy medical examiner of Cook County, and he was a friend of mine. Died sadly young of kidney cancer, but he was the first person to recognize the torture that was being done at Area 2. And he was quite.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, mostly, I try to imagine what it feels like to be that person in that situation. And I don't try to keep up with street language because even if I had an entree into it, it changes so fast it would change between putting it on the page and the page being printed. But also, I think some of the volunteer work that I've been able to do over the years has kept me grounded, connected to people who need a voice. And I think my writing is at its worst when I don't recognize the legitimacy of a point of view of a character and it's at its best when I can imagine what it might be like to be that character.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I suppose you could say that she is who I wanted to be, and now after the 22nd book in the series will be published in April, I'm taking a break from her because she has become too much like me instead of me becoming too much like her. So she's going to go off, I don't know what she's going to be doing. Something extremely adventurous, and I'm working on something very, a new character, a new everything.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And VI Warsawski actually literally came to me in that moment thinking thoughts on company time. And I thought, no, I don't want Philip Marlowe and Drag. I want a woman like me and my friends. We're doing a job that didn't exist for us when we were growing up. We were batting our heads against an establishment that doesn't want us here, doesn't want us doing this. Only she hadn't been brought up to be a good Kansas girl. So she said what was in the balloon over her head. And she didn't worry about making waves or getting fired because she just didn't worry about stuff like that.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Anyway, and then I was working at the CNA and worked for a guy whom I always call Fred to avoid libel and slander suits, who he was really a pisser. And there was an October day, I was looking down at Grant Park. We were in his office. He was, as usual, undercutting his team. And my lips were saying, gosh, Fred, heck of an idea. And the balloon over my head was, you know, imagining him dead on a slab.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Wanted to turn the tables on this depiction of women, but I didn't have confidence in my voice. And really eight years went by where I was doing a lot of different jobs. And I had this very tough woman, Minerva Daniels, who was basically Philip Marlowe and Drag. And she smoked, which I've never smoked. And, you know, you shouldn't give your detective a habit that you don't know what they're doing with it. Like, when do people need a cigarette constantly, I guess, based on the smokers I've known?”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The different things that I felt that were negative about my experience. And then, as I started going back and reading crime fiction, and Chandler actually for the first time when I was in my early 20s, still doing secretarial work at the university as I was working on my degree. And one of my brother secretaries introduced me to the hard-boiled school. So I'm reading these books and women get to be vamps. They get to be victims. If they're virtuous, they basically can't tie their shoes in public without adult supervision. And it's all based on female sexuality. So a woman who has a sex life is by definition like Eve trying to get good boys to do bad things. And inevitably failing, you know, Adam was the only success story that women have had in trying to get good boys to do bad things. And so I had a lot of anger about that.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Oh, I don't know this world. I still don't know this world. But I would say in some ways it started with a chip on my shoulder. I think that's always been what gets me moving. And I had been reading crime fiction since childhood or early adolescence, rexed out. He grew up in the same part of Kansas that I did. And he went to a one-room country school that was always beating up my school in baseball. Anyway, Second Wave feminism started shaping how I felt and thought about the world or started giving language to the issues that were really important to me or started giving language to why I was always second guessing myself and why I was differential and why I was Felt that.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's still my favorite form of fiction. And, you know, when I started writing for publication, I had these grandiose dreams that I would do something I would be as memorable as Shakespeare with my dazzling.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Conferences and publications for Fortune 1000 managers trying to figure out how to implement Title VII as it affected American businesses. So I was doing that and helping and writing stuff for him and helping run conferences on affirmative action and how to implement it and sidebar something I could see already then that was just frustrating was everyone was angry that their victimization wasn't recognized, you know, that trying to implement affirmative action for African Americans and for women of all colors. I'd be in these meetings where there was just this fury from Polish Americans, Italian Americans and so on on how they'd had it just as bad, maybe worse and nobody ever gave them a hand up and So, I actually am a big fan of affirmative action, but I could see that it was already kind of blowing up.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right, but I don't know. I did a lot of odd jobs. I worked for John Niz, but can't even think of the name of his outfit. But he had been in the Johnson administration, and then he started this urban research company that was.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Every different kind of person. If you ever met him, he had served in the Royal Navy during the Second World War. And if you ever met him, you would think he was more like a sea captain than like a part of.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So along the way, I met and fell in love with and married Courtney Wright, who was part of the physics department. A scientist.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Chicago. I reported to her. And this was just a fluke. You know, I came here, my parents had sent me to secretarial school so that I would always have a skill Fallback on. And I went to an employment agency and they placed me here. It wasn't that I was drawn to this institution. Anyway, she felt they had a fellowship that they were going to have to return to the Ford Foundation that someone had turned down. And so she suggested that it be given to me to do a history degree. And I had applied actually to study history, graduate history, in a number of schools and had been turned down by all of them. But she made the university reverse its students.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I think writing was something that was very private and personal for me, fiction writing. And I continued. To write. I still have a lot of my posthumous writing in a folder, but I didn't have confidence in my fiction writing voice, I guess you could say. So I think it was important to me in a, this is all hindsight, it wasn't what was consciously driving my actions. I was working as a secretary in the political science department. And the assistant dean Emma Pitcher, who was the Dean of Students in the Social Sciences Division, I.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I thought I was going to be a writer. And God, I knew nothing. I was so bone ignorant. I didn't know you needed a sponsor. I had a sort of a portfolio of short stories I'd written and history essays I'd written, but nobody wanted to see it. I just didn't, I was and am pretty shy about putting a foot in the door. So I ended up being a secretary and came back to Chicago where I could also be a secretary, but at least I had a bit of a community.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Just in the public sphere, seeing how. How enormous issues ended up affecting people personally at the street level. I guess I never had a very clear sense of direction and it took a long time for me to really find a direction. But it left me feeling this kind of passion and compulsion that people without voices needed to have a way to have their voices.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, in personal things and in public things, we were put up and local people put us up, us three volunteers up in their homes. And the home that I was living in. The woman was a baker at Davidson's Bakery, and the man was a bus driver, and they had two daughters, and one was severely developmentally disabled. And you know, for all the maybe one-sided things that I've said about my family, the other side was that we were brought up to believe we were intellectuals, that we were smart, that we knew more than other people. I looked at how this family cared for this child. And she was just part of their lives. And it was not in any way felt like, oh, this is a burden to us. And I thought, if my parents had had a child with those issues, they would have collapsed. They would not have known. It would have just been such more trouble than they could handle. And so it was my first maybe eye-opening into true empathy or seeing experience different from my own. But the other thing, too, was”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Anyway, our one contribution was with all the fire trucks and cops in Marquette Park. Locals had set fire to the rectory at St. Justin Martyr. So my team, the three of us saw the fire, we were able to put it out before it took hold of the whole building. So that was, I guess, my one contribution that summer.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, we were forbidden from taking part in any of these demonstrations. And so our strange experience, it was such a strange day in that neighborhood because everyone was in the park. And a week before, or two weeks before, Cardinal Cody had sent out a pastoral letter that he required every priest in the diocese to read at Mass saying that open housing and access to jobs were Christ-like values. And St. Justin Martyr, the local church, went from 2,000 people at Mass to 200. They were furious. They felt betrayed by the church and the Democratic Party. And I always have felt that the beginning of the ultra-Republican DuPage County came out of that summer with a white flight to DuPage County.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The kids used to stand are white kids on the west side of Ashland, black kids on the east side throwing rocks at each other. So, our mission was to show them that there were different ways to embrace diversity than with rocks. And so it was very much a soft propaganda summer. The minister of the church that this was housed in was the best manager I ever worked for in all my working experience. And he had us so embedded in the city and in the community. I mean, we went to white citizen council meetings. We went to the big Catholic church in the neighborhood, 2,000 people at Mass every Sunday. We went to their youth programs. We just, we heard every opinion possible in the neighborhood and in the city too.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Summer day camp for kids in the neighborhood and what we were meant to do was soft propaganda on Better Ashland Avenue 1600 West at that point was a dividing line between black and white.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And the older sister of one of my friends had been arrested in Birmingham and spent time in the Birmingham jail. And, you know, it was just in the air. And I so wanted to be part of it, but didn't really have the guts to just up and leave and go to the south for Freedom Summer or some of the things that stronger people than I volunteered for. So when this came up, it seemed like a way that I could take part in the civil rights movement in a manageable way. And they did not, the Presbyterians, they didn't have a religious test. They didn't care that I was Jewish. So I ended up, you just took whatever you were assigned to do. And of course, I thought I was going to do something important in the black community. And I was assigned to this program south of back of the yards, Polish, Lithuanian. It was the neighborhood was then at 70th in Damon. And was running a”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And this call came out for student volunteers. It was actually through the Presbytery of Chicago that Dr. King had agreed to come in response to requests, repeated requests from the local civil rights leadership who could not get traction against the daily administration on issues of housing and employment So, when he moved into that apartment building, they knew that it was going to be a volatile summer. I don't think anyone anticipated how very violent it was going to be. But they wanted, they asked for 100 students who could be embedded in the communities and do service work, whatever was asked of us.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think that that was the defining experience of my life. It upended me in so many different ways, so many different preconceived notions that I had about everything. 66, a call went out. And I always think of this with my generation. Without the internet,”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think it has left me with a lifelong sense of self doubt and, you know, that I keep on keeping on and in some ways it's made me both very pugnacious and also very self-doubting, so sort of a bizarre split personality.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Something like that. I think that, I mean, this is my version of her narrative and she isn't here to. To give her version, but I think if I failed, then she could think it was the system. But if I succeeded, then it felt like, oh, I should have been able to do that and that I was kind of like showing her up. You know, she had many gifts that were valuable as a person and as a parent, but there was this other aspect of her that was very harsh and damaging, not just for me but for my brothers as well.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“For people like Yuri and so on, who went on to win Nobel Prizes. And so my dad who went to City College, his faculty also then shared that connection And so he went out to Iowa.”
2023-12-14 · The Axe Files with David Axelrod · Ep. 561 — Sara Paretsky · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source