YouSaid · the spoken record
Sarah Guo
- lines on the record
- 87
- first
- 2024-08-06
- most recent
- 2024-08-06
- sittings or episodes
- 1
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- podcast
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“Is more optimism grounded in a lot of really smart people at the labs and large players having confidence this is true. But if you could have models that were better calibrated on whether or not they are correct, they can tell when they have a good answer or not, they become much, much more useful. Hallucination management is the blocker for many, many use cases in the enterprise. And there's a lot of confidence that the next generation of models improves against this. The most obvious answer is just going to be multi-step reasoning. It is a core mission of what the labs are working on in terms of solving that in a more general way. So the things that I'm most hopeful for, multi-step reasoning and self-improvement, the things I'm confident on that have commercial value. Hallucination Management.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Because if they have done it in that period of time and it is that simple, competition is coming. There's a lot of people who recognize the opportunity. And so I'm somewhat.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I know I just slammed this idea of the GPT rapper narrative at the beginning, but there is a seed of truth in it. Maybe I'll backtrack a little bit truism here, which is like, well, if something is really easy for you to build, unless your distribution is totally unique and defensible, you're probably not going to be able to capture rent or economic value on that for a long time. And so we still see plenty of entrepreneurs get into initial traction with something that amounts to weeks to months of work in a handful of prompt templates essentially. But the idea that could that be an entry wedge to get customers to engage with you so you can serve them more deeply? Totally. We're not expecting that companies build billions of dollars of enterprise value with a software project that is three months old. But if they think that is the long-term answer, we disagree.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“To be a combination of different systems approaches and research approaches to this. So I am very optimistic that lots of valleys, lots of people pushing for values to be crossed really fast as experienced by us or other end users.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Even 20%, that's not good enough. We have some software engineering interns right now. If they generated stuff that was good enough 20% of the time, they're fired. Go fix that. The question is, well, also classical problem in computer science and math, but like, is something more easily, more cheaply verified than solved? I think that's going to be true for lots of classes of model problems where people are designing verification and designing ranking because this is, I think, one of the most recent progressions in code generation. But if I can, like the Google team did, generate a million candidates and then come back with a reasonable view of the top three, the end user experience is much better. If I have seven interns, 20% right, but then I know which of the best two intern answers I should look at, that's better. And so we're going to have foundational improvements. We're going to have company specific improvements, but they're going to.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“AI companies is going to be how can I make the cost of managing errors or going from 80% quality to acceptable quality really, really low cost for the end user. Another way to think of this would just be there's increasing interest in just how to do things that are really cheap for models to create a better end user experience. And so more and more model systems, they generate a bunch of candidates and they have some sort of verification or ranking against those candidates to get to an experienced outcome for the end user that's better and to like cross the valley that way. A really important valley just to make sure I answer your question directly is well, how much code can you generate from a natural language specification? Not much today. There are a bunch of different benchmarks out there, but like if you look at SweeBench or something, it's like, oh, well, all of a sudden we got to.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Oh, I think the world is full of valleys. It's all valleys from here. Like we've crossed three of them in little ways. Even in what should have been what is considered to be like one of the very first domains, like writing, you're somebody who cares a lot about quality of content. One way to think of the uncanny valleys and how to cross them faster, what the foundational capabilities offer you, and increasingly the labs are all working on a reasoning that should continue to improve writing output generation. It's a super multi-dimensional problem. And for example, if you look at a writing product, whether or not I use something for writing is going to depend on, oh, well, man, I'm so OCD about what I will actually publish. If you generate something for me and it's going to take me just as much time to edit it into what I want, then I'm not going to do this again versus part of the new product thinking for these.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Scope of use cases. If you go look at self driving, like the scoping of minimum viable quality for a particular use case also seems really important. I don't know if they're allowed to call it full self-driving or not at this point, but stay in my lane. They reached a long time ago. Now you have minimum viable quality as provable to safety regulators in the city of San Francisco for a taxi with no driver. We just got to this year. You can use this concept across a lot of different machine learning products and then it feels like quite different than scope for other types of companies.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Last year is if you're Patrick and you want a commercial use video to promote this podcast or positive sum or one of your companies, is their generated video of you speaking by yourself in a room good enough that you're comfortable using it? And until this past year, until Haygen broke through that minimum viable quality barrier, it just wasn't for like any player. Input ease matters. So for Haygen, it's like you give them two minutes of video. That's consumer quality. It could be you and me on a webcam not recording something perfectly and you'll still get good enough out if you had 30 cameras in a studio in front of a green screen that are all super high def professional cameras. This problem's a lot easier. It is a little bit multidimensional, but trying to define within a company what's good enough quality as the customer experiences it is like this really important new thing as a moving target as you expand.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Dealing with failure cases, well, there are many things you can creatively do as well as model improvement or model system improvement. But if we're more concrete about two examples, I'm on the board of this company called Haygen, and they generate video with people in it today. And people use it for all sorts of commercial use cases from like a McDonald's commercial to a creator on TikTok, making influencer product videos or whatever. But the North Star for the company in terms of how deep the video problem is is, well, is somebody going to make a 30 second Super Bowl advertising spot with this? Not yet. That's pretty far. People want a lot of control. They want a lot of creative degrees of freedom. Everything needs to be invested in. And one of the ways this company, Haygen thinks in working with their customers is for some type of video asking customers like, are we good enough? And one of the core breakthroughs for this company that's been growing really fast.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Specific workflows, you're manipulating a model to produce an output that you can think of as some step in a workflow process that somebody had, like an end user business customer had. And it doesn't even have to be like a business customer. We could talk about Tesla and video output as two different examples, but you can use machine learning models to do many different things. And the question is, are they good enough to sell? I think really having a strong point of view as an entrepreneur about that and validating that with the customer is going to be a huge part of finding product market fit for companies and being creative about how to improve the quality of the model, use user experience and traditional”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There is still this theory of in B2B workflow software, you need to do enough tasks. And it might be like enough operations on a particular object type in order to fulfill core workflows where there's actually clean abstraction from the next task or a piece of software. Or you can just like replace an existing piece of software, a CRM or something. If you're going to do that in a particular segment, you might need to assign reps and quota and accounts, have some queuing or allocation function and show BI against that. There's a lot more in CRM, but let's keep the table of customers and assign reps to accounts and track it. And so you have this idea of minimum viable product scope. What is a different concept that we use in AI is mostly you're not deterministically writing the source code for”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Idea stack ranks in the economic impact to an incumbent and what the quality of people that are working on it in the organization are, maybe you feel a lot better. Entrepreneurs mostly focus on the problem they're solving for their customer. But if they are going to worry about incumbents making richer predictions about what players in your ecosystem are going to do and care about, I would encourage.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It just means be aware and don't be surprised and have a strategy against it. I still think entrepreneurship should go after these opportunities, but the ability for an incumbent to be truly great at solving a problem or a product that is very secondary in their business doesn't drive the enterprise value of the business, let's say for Google, it might be anything out of ads and then cloud. If you want to go after ads, they're going to attack you violently. There's real reason for them to. I'm going to offend somebody out there with this. But if you're working on the like 19th most important product at Google, maybe that's okay. Sometimes people look at incumbents and they say like, oh, this thing is so scary and so powerful. And I'm like, oh man, like that thing has a lot of political challenge. You see projects end all the time based on how priorities shift. And if you look at where this product”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I am very willing to bet that very large, very capable incumbents are not going to go win every market. And so part of the judo here is being smart and really intellectually honest about what incumbents, let's consider some of the core foundation model companies incumbents now in terms of their resourcing and ambition. They're not going to be good at everything. The technology might be general, but if you think about the layers on top and how that technology lands with an end user, the distance is pretty far. So understanding where that distance is really far and then what these companies most care about, you need to make those predictions as an entrepreneur. And so I'm a big fan of Arvind and perplexity, but if you look at the search GPT announcement that just came out, I think it was pretty predictable that they were going to do search at some point. And that doesn't mean don't do it.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes. And so I think that's a significant piece of the product. If we zoom out and look at this versus our general lens on what is valuable in AI applications, there is making people who might be billing $2,000 an hour more productive, hundreds, two thousands of dollars an hour more productive. And then there is do things that you can't do at scale today. The perhaps simplest version of this is I want to understand if a term exists in these 20,000 contracts, but it's not going to be written exactly the same way. And if that costs you xens of thousands of legal hours in or out of house, you're not going to do it. If it costs you a Harvey Rudd, you might. And so I think these are two of the forms in which the product is offering value today.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I mean, assuming that they have heard of co-pilot, I think the simplest thing would be to say this is co-pilot for lawyers that does increasingly sophisticated tasks. And the product makes the application of this co-pilot increasingly automated. And so more and more of the work that used to take a junior person in a legal firm hours and hours should be something you get an answer back automatically for.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so your ability to take something that is fundamentally probabilistic and sell it to a relatively conservative or like risk aware, non-technical audience is challenging. And so they had to do a bunch of work to get people to understand how huge the economic benefit would be and like go build that credibility. And I think if it'd be Alan and Overy or PWC or some of their early partners, they're building that credibility in their lead.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The combination of DNA and technology fit for purpose is very obvious, where Gabe is a researcher. Winston comes from the legal domain like White Shoe Law Firm. And then they have the core entrepreneurial traits of overall velocity, work ethic, and customer orientation. Not just customer orientation, but ability to go out and engage customers and convince people to take risks with them. The phases for most companies are like get a prototype out, go get first customers on board and show them value, build the product suite and expand your lead and improve the organization and scale. Or early in that third phase now, but the company is in publicly reported tens of millions of runway with a bunch of leading customers. And I think it's just credit to Winston and Gabe and the team so far that one of the hardest things is law is a more conservative industry.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Distribution and have more limited resources. But if you think about this traditional diffusion of innovation curve, I think diffusion of innovation also happens with talent. If you have been working on large model training or tinkering with these models for longer than other people, your depth of understanding of them is much better. And so I still think we're like so, so early in the adoption and understanding cycle of these models that it is a significant advantage for people who understand how to build products around them, where they should be advancing the state of the art and making good predictions at this foundational technology layer. And so our teams often but not always have more research DNA than traditional software companies. If you ask me, is that going to be true five years from now? I'd say I really don't know. But I think at this point in time, there's overrepresentation that I is conscious.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That went into building a great company prior. And I'd say what's different is you don't want to build things that the foundation models are going to replicate in terms of capability in the near term because it's wasted effort and then commoditized. So this is what you do need to predict on the capability side. But I think the 99 miles is a lot. And in the case of Harvey, I do think another perhaps distinctive characteristic of our portfolios at this point in time, we have a lot of teams with research backgrounds. This is not all good, by the way. I'd say with total love for our research community and all the people who are researchers in our portfolio, I'm saying we have chosen to back a lot of people in research and it has some disadvantages because those people have often never met the market. Academia or working at DeepMind or OpenAI is a very different environment than having to go talk to customers and build your own.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That narrative serves somebody, somebody is pushing that narrative. And second is just it's the opposite of coming from first principles of saying, okay, we have this alien, magical new set of capabilities. Let's assume that set of capabilities is going to progress in some way. We need to make predictions about how much that set of capabilities progresses, how dangerous or positive it is for us to have this foundational technology coming from a single vendor, multiple vendors. And then what is the value of the workflows and customer relationships and specific data and change management and distribution that goes on top? I think a lot of that was considered a little bit like it's last mile, everything's the foundation model. And it's like, who really cares because all the companies look the same because they're really thin. And I'm like, oh, that last mile, that looks like 99 of the 100 miles to me. It's very similar to a lot of the work.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The core framework for evaluating software companies remains the same, which is all those things, distribution and quality of the people and size of opportunity matter. And so you make your judgment on that. If you ask me, what is different in the AI application landscape, I would start with the premise of believing the narrative in the landscape is a very dangerous thing. I'll explain what I mean for a second here. You, of course, remember maybe it's still going on. I think it's like being debunked a little bit. But when there is so much change and so much opportunity, it's very easy for investors to go ask themselves and each other and entrepreneurs, oh, where is the value going to be? And some dominant narrative to emerge. Like everything is GPT wrappers and there's no value in the application layer. So that was like a very popular narrative for a period of time. I think there's still some of this. But when I say it's dangerous to believe in the popular narrative, first of all,”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I guess the first dated investment in the fund would be a company in the legal application space called Harvey. I invested as an angel right before the fund was fully closed and we kind of warehoused it.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Besides the fundamental orientation of, I'm not going to do this unless we can be truly excellent, trying to be dominant in some scope of asset class or domain or whatever it is. I'm a partnership oriented person. I need to go recruit and raise money, I guess. So those are the first few steps. But I actually think it's not very complicated and I wasn't terribly prepared for it.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It is my primary lens right now with lots of love for my family. We launched the month before ChatGPT launched. And then there's some credit assigned in the market for taking a point of view that is actually a point of view versus like following. And I wish I'd done this even three to six months earlier. So if anybody who is really convinced that they should do this, but they're like, oh, it'll be better if I just optimize like another month or three months or something. Like, no, don't do that. The market is moving. It's always going to be hard. And the first thing was I was just like, oh, I guess there were LPs that I already knew who wanted to talk when they heard I was thinking about doing this. And I talked to them out of love and respect and long-term relationships. And then it just felt like I should go raise the fund. So I guess step one would be go talk to LPs. In parallel, I was trying to figure out what the strategy was because I wasn't quite prepared for that yet.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You want to be responsible to the personal commitments you've made. I carry some boards for Greylock still, and I'm very invested in those founder successes. So I think you want to sort out that and just leave things well. I guess step one would just be, I had planned to go take six months off and like hang out with my kids. And if I'm allowed to say like, I'm glad I didn't. I don't think you're supposed to say that sort of thing about. Well, it would have been a shame in terms of the opportunity if that is your only lens.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What did I do? I guess this is not perfect. It is complicated to leave a venture firm that preoccupied me for a little bit.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You see the results happening in academia. You see use of increasingly powerful models in the traditional machine learning sense happening at all the large internet companies. And you see transformers happen in 2017. And at some point, the curve just becomes clear. If you think it is actually a huge change in the landscape of software, not an incremental thing, then the opportunity becomes a little too big to ignore. And so it took me a little while to arrive at that conclusion and also say, I like really want to do pure early stage versus a more multi-stage firm. And a part of it is actually nothing to do with Greylock and the opportunity and more just, I still wanted to be an entrepreneur.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, yeah. We had social friends in common, but one of the amazing things about Silicon Valley, and I know you believe this is just like a fundamental principle positive some orientation, is it is not a meritocratic place, but is the closest I have found to that. And an example, I'm not saying like I deserve this, but the marketplace for ideas in Silicon Valley is pretty good. So I wrote some random blog posts. It's like an associate of Greylock 100 years ago that was talking about like LSTMs or something. And Andrew emails me. cold and it's like, hey, we should talk about this. I'm like, oh, sure, Andrew. And that's the beginning of a friendship and lots of other stories that you or I will have like that.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I had the great luck of being at a venture firm Greylock with an extraordinary history, 75 plus years old, been through multiple technology and internal generational transitions. One of the things that was really useful is just seeing how unevenly the innovation happens in technology and how important recognizing that had been to the success of some of my legendary partners. For me, I'd been lucky enough to just be intellectually interested in AI. I had a friend who's an amazing academic entrepreneur himself, Andrew Ng, who taught me about deep learning, like he taught lots of other people about deep learning.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You do have user love adoption within the leading influential group of a particular domain is just useful for pattern matching.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My tenure at Greylock was talking to Dylan about when we met the other day, and this is 10 years ago now. And so Figma is obviously going to be a very important company without the longitudinal exposure. It's really hard to have confidence that your judgment on people and markets that are very early but have potential. It's hard to have the confidence that you're right. The pattern match, this is one of the core challenges of early stage venture, especially with a company that has a long build, like Figma, five years to a public release, you don't get the feedback cycle for a while. And so I learned a lot about just what an inexperienced but truly great entrepreneur looks like at the beginning. And that early process also different type of company than most. I think it's really popular and even trite to say like, oh, product led, user-led growth now, but as a particular type of magic and knowing what it looks like when”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That's educational because you're doing the work. It's such a privilege. There are a lot of people early on in venture careers that are in a hurry to level up. And I understand where that comes from. I'm an ambitious person. I want to have agency. You want to have the decision making capability. But there's actually this enormous gift that I wasn't so sure I wanted to be an investor when I joined Graylock because I got to just work on the things that focus on the substance of the job and helping entrepreneurs. And your time just feels less precious than when you have the opportunity cost of a network of opportunities that you are turning down meetings all the time and the ability to just learn and do company building with a little more patience was great. So huge gratitude to both Asheem and all the early customers and Michael on that journey. And the other one was just Figma. We probably invest in this company a year and a half or something in two months.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Will use two very different companies, and it's hard to say early in career because the learning cycle on the company is just so long if it is successful. And so the two I will mention would be me and my former partner, Ashim Chana, we incubated a company called Awake. It was a network analysis security company. And this was the year I joined Graylock. We started with an entrepreneur named Michael Callahan, who had come from a math and storage data systems background. This company was eventually sold to Arista. Great product, great team. This was educational because it's just a cult start. And I spent half my time working on building the company. So recruiting co-founders and early employees, talking to design partners, drawing the market, working on the substance of building a company from scratch with the help of a venture firm. And so”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In somebody who's really early in their career, but you can use understanding of businesses, interest in businesses, somebody's thinking about why a product works or doesn't as a proxy. And so kind of the core traits, but it is hard.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think that's a hard thing in venture. The sample size is so small, and there is nothing on paper that is going to, at least in my experience, going to predict well if somebody's going to be a great early stage venture capitalist. If you're hiring somebody who is 15 years into an investing career and they have a track record, I think that is different. The alpha obviously is hiring people before they're obvious. And so I think it's really tricky. are recruiting for what we think of as some baseline understanding of the technology transition that's happening in AI. And it's like really more just core technology understanding because AI is like a domain of this from both a product and a technology perspective that you can learn, but it's some context around software and then core traits. We care a lot about competitiveness, team orientation. Judgment is the hardest thing to look for.”
2024-08-06 · Invest Like the Best · Sarah Guo - The Power of Conviction - [Invest Like the Best, EP.383] · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source