YouSaid · the spoken record

Tobias Ellwood

lines on the record: 47
first: 2019-03-01
most recent: 2019-03-01
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“I'm up for the fight to defend the centre-right spectrum of the Conservative Party, which has a broad appeal to the nation. I do not want to lose sight of that. And absolutely, I will fight for that.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, no, leadership speech. What I'm trying to say is what the Prime Minister, this is what this government has achieved. But nobody hears about this because what do we do? We're on, you know, carry on Brexit.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, you would not. Absolutely not. I'm pleased to be part of a thoughtful, energetic, strategically-minded group of MPs in the Conservative Party that are determined to make sure that we promote a welcoming and I think an inviting party in the future. I think we are going through a period of time where our brand has been affected. We re-energize we morph, we move forward. When we get Brexit behind us, and this is perhaps the frustration, I mean, just think what the Conservatives have achieved. We've got the deficit down, our climate change reduction is down by a quarter, the pound is steady, billions spent on the NHS.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“They didn't tell me about that until afterwards, but there we go. So I've come better prepared just in case you take a snap today. Yeah, sure.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I was wearing my gym kit. I literally just sort of rolled out of bed and I had to zip up to here. I live just down the road, do the interview, then run back and take the kids to school. And the snapper.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think given the status and caliber of the interviewers we're put in front of them. Good effort. Was that written down? No, that wasn't. But that's just how I feel. Brilliant. You're going to do the to-date ranging. You're going to do PM. You're going to do podcasts like this. Absolutely. It's right too. And this is actually part of the symbiotic relationship, could I say, is that, and why I was welcomed to be invited onto here, is that this is a rare program where we bothered to go into the detail. Because as I say, in my world, or the world of politics or news, things are just so slim and shallow. Nobody bothers to venture into the detail. You learn more, you can make better decisions and understand them.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I think the training I received means I would never want to go into any environment without feeling I was prepared. So yes, there's been an awful lot of recognizing make sure you have the authority, the detail and so forth. Perhaps a lot of Brexit has all been about headlines, headlines trotting off the lines to take and so forth. And you see that on the green, not far from where we are today.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think because of what's happened, the statement this week, I think there's more of a chance of that actually happening. But I think you follow and comment on these things. I don't think anybody knows.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Think ultimately you can't remove it as such, but ultimately there is so many questions ahead that I think I'm probably going to get into further trouble if I venture an answer then.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Let the people resolve it. Well, there's a couple of what ifs there, and the first one is on the 12th, which is the Prime Minister's meaningful vote. And you're suggesting that if that doesn't get through, we then go to the next day, which is removing no deal from the table, then you go to the next day, which is extension of Article 50. We do move ourselves past the 31st of March, which is not, I think, what the nation actually wants. The nation actually wants, I think, for us to get on with this. So I hope people's minds will be focused, but you're absolutely right. We move into new territory, uncharted territory, if we cross the thirty first without a deal. And if we are then to seek some form of consensus in parliament that honors the referendum result, then you'll probably look at an ever softer Brexit than we've currently got. Again, I hope that will focus minds of the ERG.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What we want to do is support the Prime Minister and encourage, provided she does what he wants, rather than trying to avoid the gridlock, avoid the paralysis, avoid the divergence that we got, and bring our party together. And I think members of the ERG are recognizing that if no deal”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We're going to stay. We want to be the party. We don't want to be pushed out in any sense. We want to this moderate view that we're trying to defend has to be where we go into the future or we will not win the next general election.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Whenever that no deal is not good for Britain, it would damage Britain in so many different ways. And it's not even in the article. It's in the Article 50 letter, but the Article 50 letter says let's have a deep and working relationship with the EU.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think everybody's the wiser of the consequences of no deal. Therefore, and I hope it's very, very clear that if this was the ERG's intent to take us to no deal, that we will stop that.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think that's why you're singing an awakening. You're seeing many, the majority of people that I work with in the parliamentary party, in our party, are very much of the view that we want to be that progressive party that's inclusive, that's looking ahead to the next generation, to serve Britain, and to have that wide support from up and down the country as a one nation conservative. We won't achieve that, I'm afraid, if the bloc view of the ERG is allowed to flourish. As I stress, individuals have made huge contributions to the thinking. The party thinking, but it's never right for one caucus, like the Tea Party in the United States, to have such leverage and affect the Prime Minister's thinking. She's had to bend over backwards to accommodate the ERG. This was their project, as I said earlier. The referendum was called for because of them. And even the Article 50 letter was...”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It does. I think I appreciate the passion perhaps that's behind the comment itself, but we need to recognize that when people make comments such as that, or Chris Chope's comments on female genital mutilation, for example, it's perceived out there as if this is the ERG speaking, and the ERG speaking on behalf of the Conservative Party. And if there's any chance of that happening, then it's damaging. It doesn't help us at all.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, I think that was unhelpful comments. And what it does on the perception side, it gives the indication that the ERG is actually speaking on behalf of the Conservative Party, and that's doing damage to our brand. And going back to your original question is why are ministers, moderate ministers, actually expressing themselves when perhaps they normally wouldn't? It's because at the moment there is, if we're honest, a bit of a battle for the soul of our party. What do we actually stand for? How can we continue being that fiscally responsible centre-right party, which is going to be open and welcoming to the next generation? And we can only do that, and you only win elections, as I think you, because you've commented on a few, if you dominate the center ground. If we move to our extreme, or if Labour moves to its extreme, then you open up the ground for somebody else to win.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And what purpose does that serve when it's actually British technology? It's Airbus that's very much at the forefront of this, now being denied that. This isn't good use of the West working together, recognizing that power has moved away from the rest, from the West itself, to other nations around the world. There's a new multipolar world that we have to face and recognize. And we must work together if we are to update those rules that were created after the Second World War, but are now out of date.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“To Brexit Well, there are many upsides to many things. You have to look at the way you have to do it is to say that this is the reality that we are now working with. And I go back to the point again, is that it's always going to be the coalition of the willing that steps forward. What we can continue to do, and I shouldn't say it's binary, it's either yes or no working with the EU or without them. Not at all. The problems, the challenges that we face, and whether it's dealing with a growing China, whether it's dealing with a resurgent Russia, is making sure that Britain leads and takes countries with us. But, for example, arguing over Galileo, this new satellite system, where we're now having to build a replica system, China must be loving this, absolutely as Russia as well.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The possibility of Brexit does do that. If you are having to honour the referendum result itself, then yes, you can express yourself in a way that the consensus that binds the EU together actually limits you. If we think about the speed in which we reacted to Russia and the Crimea in the Donex region, in Ukraine and so forth, we were very, very slow. Now, prior to the EU's existence, it was actually NATO that did the operational response, the collective response of Western Europe. Because of consensus, it means you have to wait for people to get around the table, find out what everybody then wants to do. And by that time, Putin has thrown another spanner in the works, and then we're debating that.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“This was an operational statement of what will the Queen Elizabeth will do in, I think, 2021. This is a long time hence. I think that the bigger picture that I've touched on is how we deal with China in a modern context. President Xi will become more powerful than Mao is on his watch because he's now got him the job for life will become the largest economic, most powerful country in the world. The world is actually changing how we do business and as I touched on the rules have yet to be written and we need to be part of that adult conversation treat them as they've grown up but recognize that as we do business all of us including China must honour and respect the rules.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, who is that somebody else? Tell me. Who is that? There are ever fewer nations that have the ability and desire to help shape the world around us. We are one of them. I want us to be one of them, but as I say, through different reasons, perhaps starting with Iraq and Afghanistan, where we become risk-averse in stepping forward, perhaps because of the recession, perhaps because of the terrorist attacks that we've hit, perhaps because of this internal debate which divided the nation, we've perhaps lost our confidence. And the danger of that is that as America looks at America first and has its own internal issues, France as well, we are arguing with the West when actually what we should be doing is recognizing the world around us, with resurgent nations, Russia, China interpreting its rules, we need to press the reset button because the world is, if we think the last 10 years have changed, the next 10 years are going to be incredibly difficult.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The Bretton Woods, if you like, agreements after the Second World War. They're looking at life in a very, very different way. But we have to have an adult conversation with them, particularly to do with data and to do with ownership and protection of that. And there are no rules there whatsoever. This is my frustration. As we get sucked into the vortex of Brexit, there is an entire Geneva Convention to be set up on what is allowed or isn't allowed in the world of information technology, information warfare and so forth. Is somebody allowed to interfere with election process? What is the punishment for that? There are actually no rules there as well. And it's not just done on state levels. It's done with anybody with a computer. But at the moment, we're drifting into this world where data is overtaking terrain as the prize, if you like, and nobody is writing the rules.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Think you paint the picture of how complex and dangerous our world has become and why we need to, if we want to continue playing a role on the international stage, we must continue having that full spectrum capability. My concern with all the Brexit and else like that is actually that we don't make the case for defence. Our battle tank is 20 years old. It needs replacing. There isn't the money at the moment to do that. France is about to overtake us in defence spending. China, you mentioned, is increasing the size of its navy by the size of our Navy every single year. Russia has just invested huge sums of money in improving its procurement and indeed its hard power on all three traditional arenas are air, sea and land, but it's now developing space capability as well. And then we have China, as you mentioned, they are not interpreting the Western rules that we set up.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It certainly gives you an angle from which you can move forward from. It gives you goals ahead of you as to what you actually want to clear up. That was back in 2002. There, I think there were 20 terrorist groups listed in the UK at that point that we had officially listed. Sanjay Javid just a couple days ago said that's now gone up to 70 over 70. It shows you that this threat of extremism has not gone away.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Weren't in coffins, they were just lying in body bags. And eventually I was able to get him. For some reason, I don't know why, but I took the dental records with me and he'd had keyhole surgery on the base of his spine. And that was because most of the bodies were very difficult to identify. And then through the DNA testing and the dental records, we were able to prove who we was and start the process of getting him back to the UK”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It was. I mean, my brother was at a teaching conference and he was an international schools teacher in Saigon. A number of international schools teachers teachers and deputies met in Bali. They all went for a drink in the evening. He was in the Sari Club opposite the IS bar and he was killed with a number of other teachers as well. And my sister, who was actually also an international schools teacher, she was in Langkawi, not far away in Malaysia, flew straight there, but she just said it was absolute chaos and said to Bias, you need to come out and help because it's pandemonium here. And it was, again, a very dramatic event where this morgue that could deal with 12 bodies had 200, many of them just lying out in the sun. And I had to go through the lot in order to identify my brother.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In my time, and then what the politicians must recognize, that simply defeating the enemy there and then is not enough. Charlie Wilson's war was a fantastic indictment of dealing with helping the Mujahideen and then stepping back from Afghanistan and not realizing that that actually was the genesis of the Taliban. You must enable the locals, you must build up and develop, you must stay the course.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I didn't want to take the responsibility to end. There was now a doctor who had arrived by the helicopter and I wanted to be ordered. I was told to stop because I was continuing to provide air to the brain. But the bigger question is why did this happen on the gates of Britain? It is an iconic place. We know it's a symbolism of democracy. And the police do a very difficult job in on the one hand trying to take pictures with people, tourists coming by, and on the other hand try to recognize a threat that happens. And again, it goes back to that bigger picture of the fact that much as we've sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, there is still a concern that people are so easily indoctrinated to think they're going to get a fast track to paradise if they believe in this poisonous ideology. And there is so much work to be done. This is where again going back to what the armed forces do.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I arrived there and we had a pulse. And yes, as you say, I had to give evidence on what happened. And it was a very traumatic day for everyone. And I'm pleased now that there's a memorial, permanent memorial that has been placed there, given what he did to sort of defend the gates of democracy.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Difficult for me to place a finger on why I did it, it's a combination of things. I'm still in the reserves now and it was the annual training I have to do, these tests that every reservist must go through, the annual tests that we do on first aid, on dealing with battlefield injuries and so forth, that gives you the confidence to be able to then step forward, can I actually help? Can I assist in some way? And I think that was the result of that.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'd firstly say that you are very much prepared for it, better so than I think even in my time because of the training you receive from Sandhurst and the infantry training that we gained. So wherever your place now, you're not only prepared for the kinetic, the actual operation as well, but also we're far better now, and I'm pleased at the work we're doing with veterans and so on, of looking after the mental implications of all that as well. I think they are very personal things that you tend to want to simply keep to yourself for different reasons. I think there's an arena that you are willing to talk about them, but not in public.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“A few, but I think, like many of us, I think we prefer to, you know, we'll talk amongst ourselves about that. These are things that events which we tend to sort of keep to ourselves.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“On occasions, yes, I mean, absolutely, in all these environments where you go, there is concern. But you have confidence in your training.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Thought, I could possibly with a bit of work do this. So I went back all the way to the beginning to the Vikara Dibley stuff and became a parish councillor in the little village that based ourselves in Hertfordshire, Aldbury, and then I worked my way up from there.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My first degree at Loughborough University, which mostly we just played sports, I think we didn't do an awful lot. But my first perhaps introduction to politics itself was standing for the students union. I was actually president at the students' union. So I got a flavor of that. But it was in the armed forces where I then moved into the political world. Who was actually telling the armed forces to go to A, B, or C or to do this or stabilize this or to help another country? It was the politicians. So after working in the infantry, in the Royal Green Jackets, I then applied to work for Tom King, the former defense secretary. And that allowed me to actually be in the heart of democracy here in Britain to see how it actually worked. It's seeing, I actually put MPs on a pedestal. I thought I can never be one of them. My understanding of the economy and so forth, that's way beyond me. And then I came in and saw how it actually operated.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think he's thrown his passport away now. I think it was something to do with the tax returns. So he decided to relinquish his American passport. But the point is I'm absolutely passionate and patriotic to Britain. I serve my country as well. And it's during that service when I signed up for the armed forces, I learned about the decision-making, who was making the wisest citizens for our country. And goes back to this very point. I believe Britain continues, should have a higher purpose, a cause in this very changing world to lead, to lead sensibly and responsibly, to help shape the world around us. And we have stepped back from that for different reasons.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My father was a diplomat with the UN, so I was born in New York. I'm actually a dual national, and I've always thought that if things didn't work out here in the UK, I could then go across to the United States. But I think that's probably as confusing as challenging now over there as it is over here.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think for all the reasons why you say my background is absolutely quite the opposite of that. I want to be inside a modern progressive inclusive party where control, if you like, our economic competence is what we actually put forward. So I'm trying to stand up to say I want to be part of the future. If we look at the party itself, we are hemorrhaging support from the youngsters. And I'm afraid what the ERG has done as a block is actually adding to that. I stress this because there are individuals who are good friends, who have added much value with ideas and so forth. But when you have a caucus acting in their way, they become the drag anchor. They're the ones that are prohibiting us from being that inclusive, involved party that has a potential to win the next general election.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes, I won't go into the tactics. What we wanted to do was to focus on getting the deal across the line. There's an irony here that I voted for Remain. I still think it's suboptimal, but we have to recognize that's what the country concluded. We do need something that actually doesn't answer the 17.5 million people's question, but actually unites the country as well. But this was the ERG's project. They wanted Brexit in the first place, and yet it's them that are holding us back from getting this across the line. And as I say, I was worried that actually no deal was now their objective. And what we've now done is ensure that we focus, refocus on the Prime Minister's deal, otherwise we will obviously lead, well, I think lead to an extension.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And for an individual to then have a night at the palladium as well, I mean, this is moving. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that per se. What I'm saying is that the Conservative Party has always been its appeal has been the fact that it's able to have a broad spectrum of views. But no single viewpoint ever dominates too much. We're a broad church that phrases you so much, but here we have one group that's taken over the pulpit, taken over the choir stalls, and indeed the bell tower as well. And that for me became, and for many other ministers, I should say, became too uncomfortable when it seemed the perception was that they didn't like Theresa May's deal and actually were orchestrating to run down the clock to take us to no deal. And that's why we felt the necessity to step forward.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That we dared to have a view. The point is, I think, that I felt, yes, there is a collective responsibility, but ultimately a big question, a fundamental question that sits behind all the detail of Brexit is actually what is good for the nation. But another question is also what is good for our Conservative Party as well. And there's been a growing concern that we've had a voice, a group, a caucus that has developed the ERG. The fact that even people in the country know who the ERG was, you've been following and commenting on politics for many decades. Has any one single think tank or group organization within a political party had so much dominance? We still need the need for the need.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Chamber at the time, and we knew something was happening. There was already messages that got out, so I was pleased to say that she was able to confirm.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I hate to use the word satisfaction, but we've managed to prevent no deal. In fact, no deal, I think, as a possibility has really come up under the microscope. Perhaps a worry I have with all this Brexit stuff is the fact that people trot out these lines, you know, I want this or I want that. I'm happy now with the no deal. And what happened in this week is that no deal was really scrutinized. Does it answer the referendum question? I don't actually recall it people calling for WTO terms at all. Does it help our economy? I don't think so, introducing tariffs. Security-wise, the area that I look after most absolutely would be very dangerous as we lost sight of that threat picture. And will it bring together what we know is a very, very divided nation. And in all those answers, it's very much a no. So I was pleased that the Prime Minister did come to the dispatch box, and we all were listening very carefully. I have to say I was at the back of this.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But there are people who say the failure to deal with this anti Semitism is evidence that Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to lead this country. Is he fit to be Prime Minister? He could easily be Prime Minister, but of course people challenge, you know, we could do without the anti-Semitism because people question it allows you to ask me that question on the Today program. So we need to close these.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Hope it's very, very clear that if this was the ERG's intent to take us to no deal, that we will stop that. You'll stop it.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Going to stay. We want to be the party. We don't want to be pushed out in any sense. We want to, this moderate view that we're trying to defend has to be where we go into the future or we will not win the next general election.”
2019-03-01 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Tobias Ellwood One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source