Holly Cairns
Cork South-West · Social Democrats · Ireland
“At the end of the day, there are a few things that we know and a few things that we do not know. We know the commission of investigation found that it is highly likely there are babies buried on the grounds. We do not know why it made that recommendation. Why? Because the archives are sealed.”
“He now seems to be using that as an excuse for inaction, when what he should be doing is moving heaven and earth to find these children and 19 women who disappeared. Two weeks ago, the Taoiseach told me that Cork City Council should have placed a compulsory purchase order on the land.”
“It knows the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes said it was highly likely that burials had taken place on this land. It has all the evidence of abuse, suspicious deaths, disappeared women and children and likely burial, and the Taoiseach is telling us he is powerless to act because legislation his previous Government d…”
“I want to take up where we left off yesterday. When explaining why the Government was not going to buy Bessborough the Taoiseach said: Excavation without evidence of location is neither feasible nor lawful [because] Under the Institutional Burials Act 2022, the Government can only [start an excavation] where it is satisfied that burials h…”
“The decision by An Coimisiún Pleanála to grant planning permission for apartments at Bessborough is disgusting. This represents yet another failure, a betrayal by the State of the thousands of women and children who were incarcerated and abused there and of the 859 children and 19 women who remain unaccounted for and are presumed dead.”
“I take it from the Taoiseach's reply and his talk about respecting An Bord Pleanála's decision that the answer is that the Government will not be issuing a CPO for the land. The Taoiseach may correct me if I am wrong because I hope the Government is going to make moves to compulsorily purchase the land.”
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“It is very clearly by design that we do not have this information. I take it from the Taoiseach's reply that his answer to my questions was "No", so I will ask him this: will he simply release the archaeological report?”
“We do not know why. The Taoiseach's whole argument amounts to "We simply don't have enough information to meet the threshold for excavation and examination." Why do we not? It is by design.”
“At the end of the day, there are a few things that we know and a few things that we do not know. We know the commission of investigation found that it is highly likely there are babies buried on the grounds. We do not know why it made that recommendation. Why? Because the archives are sealed. The Taoiseach took exception to that word yesterday. They are closed. He can call it whatever he wants. That is why we do not know why the commission made that recommendation. We know that archaeologists walked the site. We do not know what they said or recommended because the archive is sealed. We know that there was no ground-penetrating radar used. As far as we know, there were no soil samples and no test excavations. We do not know why. We know that we have this information for Tuam and for Sean Ross Abbey. We do not have it for Bessborough.”
“If he cared about this issue he would act. He could amend the burials Act. He could open the archives. He could negotiate with the developer. He could give money to Cork City Council to secure the land.”
“He now seems to be using that as an excuse for inaction, when what he should be doing is moving heaven and earth to find these children and 19 women who disappeared. Two weeks ago, the Taoiseach told me that Cork City Council should have placed a compulsory purchase order on the land. Councillors on Cork City Council have now twice voted unanimously to CPO the land, mostly recently on Monday of this week. The councillors have been told that they cannot do that because the council does not have capital. The Taoiseach holds the purse strings. Quite frequently when I ask him an important question he comes back and speaks about how I do not have a monopoly on caring, about his bona fides and about how much he cares. Respectfully, it does not matter how much the Taoiseach cares unless that is mirrored some way in his actions.”
“It knows the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes said it was highly likely that burials had taken place on this land. It has all the evidence of abuse, suspicious deaths, disappeared women and children and likely burial, and the Taoiseach is telling us he is powerless to act because legislation his previous Government drafted and enacted is preventing him. This really is beneath contempt. I repeat again what he said yesterday. The Government needs evidence that burials were "manifestly inappropriate" before it can intervene. Is he actually trying to say that these burials were in any way manifestly appropriate, and discarding the remains of hundreds of children without a scrap of paper recording the burial location is appropriate?”
“I want to take up where we left off yesterday. When explaining why the Government was not going to buy Bessborough the Taoiseach said: Excavation without evidence of location is neither feasible nor lawful [because] Under the Institutional Burials Act 2022, the Government can only [start an excavation] where it is satisfied that burials have taken place and there is evidence that those burials are manifestly inappropriate. He then said, "I am advised that the legal threshold cannot currently be met because the location of many burials remains unknown." I cannot have been the only person listening who was stunned. The Government knows that 859 children and 19 women who were incarcerated at Bessborough are missing, presumed dead.”
“The point of a State apology is not whether it is moving; it is whether it results in change, whether every recommendation of the commission is implemented, whether survivors receive justice without having to spend another decade fighting for it, whether this Government will finally get its head around the fact that accountability does not end with saying "Sorry" but, rather, begins there. These men deserve more than words. I sincerely hope the Government delivers action.”
“That should never have been necessary to receive justice, but it is a path this State forces survivors down time and time again. Ireland has become far too comfortable with empty apologies. The survivors of the mother and baby homes received an apology yet, today, families are still pleading with the Government not to permit apartments to be built on the grounds of Bessborough, where hundreds of children remain unaccounted for. Survivors of child sexual abuse in our schools received apologies yet women abused in Dunderrow National School are still being denied redress and forced through the courts. The remaining thalidomide survivors are still waiting for a State apology - still waiting for justice.”
“Instead, the local institutions of the State in Waterford circled the wagons. They protected a powerful man who came from a powerful family, with no regard to the safety of the children who were suffering at his hands. Those are failures that changed lives irreparably because after gardaí interviewed Bill Kenneally in December 1987, he walked out of Waterford Garda station and continued to abuse children up until 1993 - children who could and should have been protected. The extraordinary courage shown by survivors is what brought us here today. They forced the truth into the open and fought against institutions that did not want to listen. They relived unimaginable trauma in the pursuit of justice so that future generations of children might be safer.”
“The principal of De La Salle secondary school knew. The South-Eastern Health Board knew. Billy Kenneally senior knew. Brendan Kenneally knew. Monsignor John Shine knew. Parents had raised concerns. Boys themselves tried. They reached out to figures of authority who should have helped them. They gave statements and handed in photographic evidence, but the people who were supposed to protect them did not. The handling of the case by An Garda Síochána and the South-Eastern Health Board was a horrific dereliction of duty. The commission of investigation was very clear in that. It found that Bill Kenneally could have been arrested. His home could have been searched. Evidence could have been secured. Other victims could have been identified. Child protection measures could have been put in place.”
“I welcome the survivors in the Gallery today. Today is a momentous day for you all, for everyone who suffered at the hands of Bill Kenneally and who fought bravely for decades to be believed and to be supported. This apology should have happened years ago because the horrific abuse inflicted on young boys was not solely the work of one predatory monster. It was the consequence of institutional failure by the State. Bill Kenneally's abuse was cruel beyond belief. He was calculated. He used alcohol, gifts and money to groom boys. He used intimidation, restraint and degrading photographs to control them. His crimes were among the most serious imaginable and their effects have lasted a lifetime, and State failure allowed him to keep doing it. Senior gardaí were aware of allegations against him.”
“Will the Taoiseach clarify whether the Government is going to compulsorily purchase the land? He can call it what he wants. The Taoiseach says the records are not sealed but the archives are closed. Even An Bord Pleanála could not access them. Will the Taoiseach open them?”
“I do not believe this build will go ahead. I know people will chain themselves to the gates before diggers can roll in there to build and to concrete over land where potentially hundreds of children are buried.”
“I take it from the Taoiseach's reply and his talk about respecting An Bord Pleanála's decision that the answer is that the Government will not be issuing a CPO for the land. The Taoiseach may correct me if I am wrong because I hope the Government is going to make moves to compulsorily purchase the land. However, I believe this will go down as the most callous decision by this Government. A commission of investigation said that it is highly likely that children whose deaths went uninvestigated are buried in these grounds but the Taoiseach is saying to go ahead and build apartments on the site. He underestimates the strength of feeling on this issue. Crucially, he underestimates the strength of survivors. This is fundamentally wrong. Not only do the survivors know it but the general public do as well.”
“Will he ask the Attorney General to order an inquest into the deaths of children and women in Bessborough, as he has the power to do under section 4 of the Coroner's Act 1962? Critically, will the Government CPO the land?”
“Two weeks ago when I asked the Taoiseach to purchase the site using a compulsory purchase order, CPO, he told me he was waiting for the outcome of the appeal before deciding how to respond. He has it now, so what is he going to do? Will he unseal all records about burials from the archive of the mother and baby homes commission?”
“No. Instead, planning permission was granted to build apartments over the unmarked graves of disappeared children. Unlike those done in Tuam and at Sean Ross Abbey, the so-called archeological assessment carried out by the commission has never been published. It remains sealed, along with the entire archive of documents relating to Bessborough. No one can access those documents, not even An Coimisiún Pleanála. The fact the latter can grant planning permission and simultaneously conclude that the history of burials on the grounds is incomplete is just appalling. The trauma this has caused survivors is immeasurable. One survivor Terry Meyer told the Irish Examiner it was like "a stab in my heart and soul" because it showed "the inhumanity, and the callousness".”
“The decision by An Coimisiún Pleanála to grant planning permission for apartments at Bessborough is disgusting. This represents yet another failure, a betrayal by the State of the thousands of women and children who were incarcerated and abused there and of the 859 children and 19 women who remain unaccounted for and are presumed dead. I read An Coimisiún Pleanála's decision in detail and I cannot get over it. It states, "from the information available, there is no evidence that there are unrecorded burials" on the development site. Yet, the report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes said it was highly likely that burials took place on the grounds. What happened after that conclusion was reached? Was there a comprehensive survey of the grounds? Was ground-penetrating radar used? Were test excavations conducted?”
“I also welcome Grace's parents, who are in the Public Gallery, and Michel Barnier, the ambassadors and others who are in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. On behalf of the Social Democrats, I extend our sincere best wishes to the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, and his family. Everyone in this House wishes him a full and speedy recovery.”
“Will the Taoiseach give a cast-iron commitment today that details of the mediation process will be communicated to the survivors before 17 July?”
“Two weeks ago, I raised with the Taoiseach the issue of the 19 survivors of Dunderrow National School in Kinsale, who are being denied redress. I told him that the Government's strategy in these cases is "delay, delay, delay". He said, “It is not delay, delay, delay in respect of the mediation that has been sought". Lo and behold, what do we have? A delay in respect of the mediation that has been sought. The women, who have been waiting 15 years, have been told the Government needs more time to consider their request and will get back to them on 17 July, conveniently the day after the Dáil rises for the recess and less than two weeks before the end of the law term. Delaying mediation and accountability sounds a lot like "delay, delay, delay".”
“I do not know how the Taoiseach can stand up in here and say there is not a change when this is very clearly a huge change for schools, teachers and students, without engagement with them, without understanding of the impact and, seemingly, without even understanding the school calendar. If it were not so serious, it would be comical. The Government has failed to provide school places for hundreds of children, attempted to slash the number of SNAs in school and botched the roll-out of the summer provision, and the Taoiseach stands up here and tells everybody that things are going great. Given that schools are closed now, people thought they might get a break from this kind of mess, but no, here we are again. I will ask the other two questions that the Taoiseach did not answer again. Why was this announced when the schools are closed?”
“Will he do now what will inevitably be done later and postpone the closure of the portal until at least October? Can he confirm that this Government is changing the eligibility criteria for special classes and schools?”
“Now, we have a hint of what may be coming down the line, namely, reports created by teachers as learning and support aids for children replacing psychological reports, placing huge pressure on teachers who, instead of writing a report on how best to support a child in their own classroom, will know that what they write could be the difference between that child getting a special class or not. This massive change in policy is being slipped through quietly in a circular during the summer break. In all fairness, I have to ask about the carelessness in the way in which this Government consistently treats special education and the level of disrespect being shown to families and school communities. Will the Taoiseach explain why this announcement was made when schools are closed?”
“We also learned yesterday that, for the first time, children's student support plans will be used to help determine eligibility for a place in a special class. Currently, these plans are created by teachers to support children in their existing classes. They are not supposed to be the determining factor in whether a child can access a special class or not. The fear now is that the Government is changing the eligibility requirements for special classes by stealth. Last December, the Minister, Deputy Foley, announced that assessment of need would no longer be required to access special classes or special schools.”
“Schools are closed, teachers are on leave and families are on holidays. Incredibly, I have to ask the Taoiseach if the Department of education knows that. If it does, why did it choose this week to announce a whole new application process for special class and special school places for the 2027-28 school year? Parents and schools only found out yesterday. To add insult to injury, the portal closes on 1 September. We all know that so many parents rely on teachers to help them with these hugely complicated applications, yet the Department somehow expects them to do that by the first week back to school. The circular says the Department will have a targeted communications strategy to reach out to parents over the summer and that it wants schools to "assist" it in doing so, even though, I repeat, schools are closed.”
“Disabled people must be at the centre of shaping disability policy. DPOs and advocacy services need sustainable funding so disabled people themselves can shape the decisions that affect their lives. We owe it to every disabled person in this country to finally deliver on the promise of the UNCRPD, to make Ireland's commitment mean something and deliver people's fundamental rights.”
“For some, that may well be family carer but for many, being looked after by your parents into adulthood does not represent the independence that they want and are entitled to. The Government cannot even tell us how many people are waiting for appropriate housing and supports. How can you solve a crisis that you refuse to even measure? You cannot. Right now, when people's parents become too ill, die or simply can no longer cope, too many people are sent wherever a vacancy happens to exist, often far from their families, friends and communities. That is not a rights-based approach; it is institutional thinking. It is wrong. This motion calls for what should already exist - one pathway, one assessment, one named team and one community living plan. Crucially, it calls for planning that begins years before crisis, not days after one.”
“That injustice is what sparked the Before We Die campaign which, in turn, has inspired this motion. One mother put it starkly: "Please let me live just one day longer than him. I am terrified for his future." That is the position the State has forced people into. Rather than planning for independent living, we wait until an ageing parent can no longer cope, until they become seriously ill or until they die. Only then does the State begin looking for somewhere for that person to live. That is not planning; it is negligence. Only 2% of families surveyed had a formal written housing plan for their adult son or daughter with an intellectual disability and 92% still rely on a parent as their primary carer. Independence means having a choice in your care.”
“Those rights are recognised under Article 19 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which Ireland ratified years ago but on which it has still failed to deliver. Instead, we have a system that fails disabled people and carers alike; a system where many people are denied the personal assistance hours they need; and they are cut off by an inaccessible public transport system and locked out of employment. Many young disabled people are living in places they should never have been put in the first place. Over 1,000 adults under the age of 65 are still living in nursing homes. That is five years after the Wasted Lives report told the Government this had to end. Adults with intellectual disabilities are facing another heartbreaking housing crisis because of the State's failure to uphold their human rights.”
“First, I thank Deputy Quaide for his dedication and really hard work on this issue. Our motion today can be boiled down to one simple principle: disabled people have the same rights as everyone else. They have the right to a home, the right to decide where they live, the right to remain part of their community and the right to relationships, privacy, autonomy and dignity. These are not optional services to be delivered when a government feels like it. These are human rights, plain and simple. Too often we see governments pointing proudly to their budget allocation for disability as though it is some kind of great act of generosity. Disability supports are not charity. They are the basic supports the State is obliged to provide to deliver on the rights and freedoms disabled people are entitled to.”
“There are cases not being heard and there are victims who ultimately will not get justice. Where is this going to end? Is there anything other than a climb-down for the Minister at this point? What is the Government going to do now that it is in this situation? Will it accept that its approach has not worked and tell us what the next step will be?”
“I think everybody agrees that reform is needed. The point is that the Minister for justice's approach has been an absolute disaster. His review looked into 350,000 cases. He is repeatedly citing three cases. Three in 350,000 does not really stand up to scrutiny. In addition to that, his main argument for pointing the finger at solicitors is the number of adjournments, but there is no mechanism for recording the reason for adjournments. We all know that the majority of them come from the State's side. Why is he not introducing a mechanism to record the reason for adjournments and taking it from there? It simply does not make sense. The final point I would make is that it has resulted in cases not being heard in their thousands. There are people who cannot access free legal aid, crucially.”
“Does the Minister, Deputy Chambers, share our concerns about the chaos we are witnessing in the courts and will the Government admit that the justice Minister's attempt to ram through these changes has been a disaster?”
“For a start, his own internal review is clear that it does not know the reason adjournments are requested. Also, it is just a matter of fact that, ordinarily, adjournments are requested by the State because there is some delay on the prosecution side. Finally, it is judges who grant adjournments. Does the Minister seriously think judges are conspiring with solicitors to delay cases in order that solicitors can make more money? That seems to be the implication. This chaos simply cannot continue. These changes to the legal aid system must be reversed. Then there needs to be a real consultation about reforms that would genuinely improve the system.”
“I do not want to comment on this or any other case before the courts but we should all be aware that being unable to access legal advice in Garda stations could pose very serious problems in subsequent criminal trials. The question for the Government is how long it will allow this chaos to continue. This is a crisis of the justice Minister's own making. I have serious concerns about the way he has gone about this. At every stage, he has failed to meaningfully engage with solicitors, preferring instead to just portray them as abusing the system and being unethical. Clearly, the Minister and the Government seem to believe criminal legal aid solicitors are gaming the system and trying to line their pockets by prolonging criminal cases. The problem for the Minister is he does not have a shred of evidence to back this up.”
“It is another week of chaos in the criminal courts as hundreds of solicitors have withdrawn their services for legal aid. Thanks to the actions of the Minister for justice, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, thousands of cases have already been adjourned, not just in the District Court but in the Circuit Court and the Central Criminal Court, where the most serious crimes are prosecuted. Yesterday, at the Central Criminal Court, 12 rape cases were listed. Of that number, just two trials were able to start and that is only because the defendants in those two cases were minors and solicitors have not withdrawn their services in cases involving children. All the other cases were adjourned. This is an absolute disaster. It was also reported today that a man has been charged with murder without having access to legal advice during Garda questioning.”
“He spoke around the issue for the entire reply, talked about how great the Government's scheme was, which excluded people who spent less than six months in an institution, and talked about the size of the site again.”
“Can the Taoiseach imagine what it must feel like to not know if your baby, your sibling or your niece or nephew is buried at the site in Bessborough or, potentially, was sold abroad? Like Carmel Cantwell said at the weekend, the truth lies in the grounds. We are talking about some of the worst human rights violations and some of the worst crimes imaginable. We are talking about forced family separation. We are talking about disappeared infants. We are talking about human trafficking. We are then talking about the potential. Can the Taoiseach imagine apartments being built on top of that uninvestigated, potential mass grave of disappeared babies? It is unbelievable. I asked the Taoiseach if the Government would compulsorily purchase the land, and he stood up and simply did not answer the question.”
“What survivors want to know is what this Government is going to do if the planning decision is upheld. Is it going to do nothing? Will it sit back while survivors chain themselves to the gates, or is the Government going to do what it should have done a long time ago, which is the bare minimum of compulsorily purchasing the land?”
“Everyone understands and agrees that in normal circumstances the Government should not intervene but does the Taoiseach think these circumstances are normal? A total of 923 children died at Bessborough between 1922 and 1998 when it finally closed, and 1998 is not that long ago. This is the Taoiseach's constituency and he was on the local authority at that time. Burial records exist for only 64 of these children, meaning 829 children are disappeared, presumed dead, but nobody knows. These are not normal circumstances. Under the European Convention on Human Rights, ECHR, the State has a legal obligation to protect this site for proper forensic investigation and to deliver truth and justice for survivors. The only way to do that is through compulsorily purchasing the land.”
“Leaving that aside for the moment, no one is asking the Government to go in tomorrow and excavate the entire site at Bessborough. Before that there would need to be geophysical surveys, test excavations and soil samples. The commission of investigation did not do any of that. It did not properly investigate the site. Even leaving that aside, the first thing the Government has to do is CPO land. This was unanimously agreed by Cork City Council and it is the number one ask of survivors for the State to protect the site and to give survivors breathing space and time to discuss what should happen next, without the looming pressure of diggers rolling into the site. Another argument the Taoiseach puts forward whenever I raise Bessborough is that he cannot intervene in the planning process.”
“Carmel Cantwell's brother William died in Bessborough mother and baby home. Speaking at a vigil on Sunday she said, "The land itself holds the truth. These buildings, these fields hold stories and secrets and the remains of our family members". That truth now lies buried. If planning permission is granted next week, this Government has a big decision to make: do its State apologies mean anything or are they just performance? Until this point, every time I have raised it with the Taoiseach, the current Minister and the former Minister, they have all said the same thing, which is that an investigation of the site would be too big and too expensive. For one, is anything too big when we are talking about the gravity of 829 disappeared babies?”
“Crucially, the most important figure in all of this is the number of lives it is costing, which is equivalent to nearly one person every day in Ireland. It is hard to articulate the impact that has on those people's families and communities and on everything. The Taoiseach has an opportunity to do something that will save lives. I ask him again whether the recommendations in the report will be included in the drugs strategy next month.”
“The Taoiseach said the Government is taking a health-led approach to this issue. Respectfully, the Government is not taking a health-led approach. A citizens' assembly was established and issued its findings. A cross-party Oireachtas committee did the same. Both of them found that we need to change to a health-led approach. That includes decriminalisation among a range of other health-led approach methods. From the Taoiseach's reply, I take it that he plans to continue with more of the same and he thinks we have a health-led approach. I really urge him to reconsider that. He highlighted that a lot of funding is going into different things. It costs a lot of money, too, to put people in prison.”
“They have done that work and issued a unanimous report with cross-party support. The national drugs strategy will be finalised next month. If the recommendations of the committee are not included, it will have little credibility. Will the Taoiseach ignore the report or will he make a commitment today that its recommendations will be included?”
“The committee also heard about places where decriminalisation was introduced but not done properly, such as Oregon, where drugs were decriminalised but there was no increase in resources for treatment. What is clear is that decriminalisation must be accompanied by increased investment in health services. It will not work in isolation. That is key to the committee's recommendations. Treatment options for drug use are threadbare. This is especially true in prisons, which are dangerously overcrowded. It is estimated that 70% of people entering prison have an addiction or substance abuse problem. That is about 4,000 people. How many addiction nurses are employed in Irish prisons? Zero. This is not a health-led approach; it is killing people. It is, quite frankly, inhumane. The Oireachtas gave the members of the drugs committee a job.”
“Its key recommendations are that the possession of drugs for personal use be decriminalised and that we introduce a comprehensive health-led approach to the use and misuse of drugs. The committee did not pull these recommendations out of thin air. It listened to a wide variety of experts, community groups, people with lived experience of drug use and recovery and families affected by addiction. The committee also heard comprehensive evidence about other parts of the world where this approach has worked, such as Portugal, which decriminalised drugs 25 years ago and has seen a significant reduction in drug-related deaths with no increase in drug use.”
“Someone dies from a drug overdose in Ireland almost every day. Drug deaths in this country are almost three times the EU average. The Taoiseach has a big decision to make. The Government can keep on doing what we all know is not working - criminalising people who struggle with addiction, failing to fund the services that could help them and cramming people into overcrowded prisons where drug use is endemic - or it can be radical and brave. It can opt to change its policy approach so that it is evidence-based and health-led. It can address the underlying causes of drug addiction. It can save lives. That is what the cross-party report from the Committee on Drugs Use has recommended today. The decision was unanimous.”