Martin Kenny
Sligo-Leitrim · Sinn Féin · Ireland
“A debate here for a couple of hours is fine, but I remember being involved in some of the deep talks with people in the early days of the peace process. We sat in rooms and talked about reconciliation. I met Garret FitzGerald on many occasions at the Glencree Centre for Peace and Reconciliation.”
“Of course, we have the areas of natural constraint payments that most farmers on this side of the Border avail of. Unfortunately, those payments are no longer available in the North. Sinn Féin has recommended that the payments should be restored. Farmers need support. Brexit took their support away.”
“I welcome this debate. Such a debate has been needed for quite a long time. The reality is that for many people, the issue of the financial implications of Irish unity has been used as a put-down to try to smother or put a stop to argument and debate. This is a welcome way in which we can open that up.”
“I hope Government will reflect on that and recognise that we need to build a process. There is an energy for reunification among ordinary people the length and breadth of the country. This is about the physical constraints, but is also about identity. Many people who live on this island have a British identity.”
“As the Taoiseach is aware, for many years people with mental health issues have been attending emergency departments in our hospitals. Many of them get very poor outcomes. They experience long delays and end up on trolleys. Sometimes they are referred for short-term stays or to community services, which offer little or no service.”
“I appreciate all that and the farmers forum is a positive advancement on things, but we are back to the problem at the very core of this issue, which is that the chair of Bord Bia has been using imported beef from Brazil as part of his mix to sell product.”
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“We need to get this legislation passed as soon as possible because we do not want a situation where we have more weather warnings and more storms and people start to worry again that they will be left without electricity, water and heat. I am asking for cross-party support for this legislation. We are open to getting everybody to come together to find a solution for something that has affected thousands of people across the country.”
“Minimum width corridors for electricity lines shall be as follows: 55 m centre minimum width in the case of a 10 KV capacity line; 55 m centre minimum width for a 38 KV capacity line; 61 m centre minimum width for a 110 KV capacity line; 60 m centre minimum width for a 220 KV capacity line; and 74 m centre minimum width for a 400 KV capacity line. The Government promised to introduce legislation on this but has failed to do so and nothing has happened. It has been 18 months since Storm Éowyn wreaked havoc across the country. We all hear from Government that the legislation is being progressed but nothing has happened.”
“The Bill aims to establish minimum corridor widths for specific categories of critical infrastructure as currently outlined under the forestry standards manual. The critical infrastructure is defined as water mains, gas lines and electricity lines of varying voltage capacities. The minimum width of forestry corridors for critical infrastructure shall be as follows: 15 m width for water mains; 15 m minimum distance for gas lines; and a 30 m minimum corridor shall apply where a gas line has been installed after the forestry has been planted.”
“In my constituency covering Sligo, Leitrim and south Donegal, along with many other countries in the north west, we were severely impacted by the storm with power outages and water outages. This was not the first time; it has been happening on a regular basis. As these storms seem to continue to become more frequent, we cannot allow these extended power outages to continue or indeed to become the norm. The biggest issue the ESB faced in restoring electricity was forestry where trees had fallen upon power lines and the corridors for the power lines were blocked for days. These corridors had to be cleared before repair works could be carried out. This legislation, the Forestry (Critical Infrastructure) (Amendment) Bill 2026, would prevent this happening in the future.”
“I move: That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Forestry Act 2014 to provide for the effective management of critical infrastructure corridors and forestry management, and to provide for related matters. As Deputies will be aware, this is a Bill to deal with the forestry situation. It is to amend the Forestry Act 2014 to provide for the effective management of critical infrastructure corridors and forestry management and related matters. We all remember Storm Éowyn and the havoc it caused across the country to many thousands of households that were left without electricity and, as consequence of that, were also left without water. Roads were blocked by fallen trees with people cut off for days in many cases.”
“The poultry litter cannot come across the Border and it is having a serious impact on farmers down here. As we know, the price of fertiliser has gone through the roof. They will have to buy fertiliser to replace this. It is a serious problem for both sides of the Border. Farmers in the North cannot get rid of it and farmers down here who want it are not being given a licence to get it. We need to get this resolved. I raised it with the Minister for agriculture, Deputy Heydon, in the past. He said he is trying to work something out. The Government needs to engage with the environmental services and the Department of agriculture, as well as with our counterparts north of the Border, to get this issue resolved as quickly as possible.”
“I wish to raise a cross-Border issue with regard to the poultry industry. North of the Border, the poultry industry is an important and large industry. Of course, a byproduct of that is poultry litter. Poultry litter contains a high level of phosphates. As a result of the North already having an abundance of them, and the South having a deficit, poultry litter has traditionally always been exported South of the Border under licence from the Department of agriculture. However, the Shared Environmental Services, SES, in the North – it is kind of a State-fund organisation similar to An Taisce down here – has raised questions about the export and spreading of this litter, particularly its impact on designated sites. That has brought us to a situation where, in fact, there has been a suspension of licences being issued.”
“At the end of the day, we have an opportunity to make this so much better. That is why we appeal to the Minister to include services, to make the full stand that we need make and stand up for what is right and to ensure that the people of Palestine and the world know that Ireland of all places stands firmly with them.”
“The Government can make all kinds of excuses but, at the end of the day, we have to make a stand sometime. Many people live long and weary lives and go to their graves without ever having taken a stand for anything but that is what we are about in this place. We are about making a stand. We have to be leaders on this on the international stage. Ireland of all countries, which was the victim of centuries of colonisation and imperialism, knows what it means to have somebody to lead. When the rest of the world was under the yoke of imperialism, Ireland stood and said that there can be a different way. We struck a blow in 1916 for freedom. It lit a torch that inspired oppressed people in every corner of the world and we still have an obligation to inspire oppressed people in every corner of the world. That is why what we do here is important.”
“It is now eight years since the occupied territories Bill was first proposed. Fianna Fáil said that it would support that Bill and that it wanted to see it move through the Oireachtas. For those eight years, there has been foot dragging every time the Bill has come up. The reality is that the people who live in the occupied territories continue to suffer under a cruel and harsh regime that continues to take their land and their houses from them and that allows them to be attacked by settlers with the protection of the military. It is a deplorable situation. International law says that it has to stop and that it is wrong and yet we are presented with an occupied territories Bill this evening that is only a half-measure. It leaves out trade in services, which is absolutely vital.”
“It was handling clients’ money. It was selling the tickets to the customers, taking in the money, holding it and giving it back. There is no such thing as client account in these organisations. There needs to be an examination of how this can be properly regulated and properly done. There also needs to be some kind of compensation, particularly for the community organisations but for all the organisations that run festivals around the country that may be largely out of pocket because of this.”
“Everybody who attended had a tremendous time. It was wonderful, but the promoters say there is no money there any more. This company is owned by DEAG, which is the largest shareholder. I understand it is a German company with an annual turnover of about €450 million, so there is no absence of money in the parent company, which needs to be held accountable for this. My understanding is that in the past couple years since it was taken over by international companies, it has been scaled down. Its offices have been closed. It has been scaled down to the stage where it was all being run by one man working from home. Now, it has pulled the plug on it and nobody knows where it has gone. There is an issue about how we regulate such agencies and organisations. A solicitor or an auctioneer has to have a client account. That is what it was doing.”
“A lot of them are organised by community projects and community groups and they need funding and assistance to ensure they can survive. In the past, some of them got bits of assistance from the local authorities. Then there is a need for a bit of crowd control and the Garda charges them a fortune to manage the crowd. It just seems to turn it on its head. There needs to be an overall examination of all of that. Finally, I want to come to the issue of tickets.ie . As we know, it went wallop in the last week. A lot of festivals around the country were affected. The Rory Gallagher International Festival in Ballyshannon, County Donegal has lost an awful lot of money. The organisers do not know where it has gone. It has disappeared. Cowboys and Heroes in Ballinamore, County Leitrim is a country music festival that was on again last weekend.”
“The Government needs to put more investment into all of that and ensure that we have the level of support required to build the critical mass so that it can work on its own. Very often in the early days that is one of the critical points as a lot of tourism packages cannot develop without support. The Wild Atlantic Way has been a great success from a marketing perspective, as has the Hidden Heartlands, which also runs through a lot of my area. It has a lot more potential and needs a lot more investment. I want to return to a topic that was raised by others, namely, festivals. They are a big part of summer tourism attractions, in particular in a lot of small places around the country. People come to music festivals, literature festivals and whatever else.”
“I acknowledge the huge work that has been done by so many people around the country, particularly in a voluntary capacity to develop the tourism package that we offer to people. Tourists come to Ireland for a number of reasons. There is leisure tourism and activity tourism. We have a lot of that in my region with the Shannon waterway among others. We also have a lot of hill walking, etc. In addition, we have interest tourism - people who want to come to look at history and how people lived in the past or developed. We have the coal mining experience in Arigna, Seán Mac Diarmada's Cottage in north Leitrim as well as Yeats country. We have all of the types of tourism packages that attract people and bring those who have an interest in a particular region or a particular area.”
“It is totally wrong, and the Minister and Government need to stand up and say "Stop the game", so that we can truly identify with the people being oppressed in Gaza and the West Bank.”
“That is what is required of a Government which claims to be in favour of international law and ensuring standards are applied equally and fairly. If they are applied equally and fairly, we should be applying them in the same way to the Israelis as we apply them to the Russians, applied them to the Yugoslavians and South Africans and would apply them to any other terrorist organisation around the world which claims to be a government. There are Jewish people around the world and in Ireland - I met a couple of them recently - who are totally outraged by what is happening in Israel. They are very annoyed it is being done in their name. Zionism is a different thing altogether from the Jewish communities around the world who are being plagued by what is happening in Israel.”
“That is the choice we have here, and the choice which, unfortunately, the players may have to make at some point if the Government and others do not stand up to what is happening. Of course, there may be consequences. However, those consequences are minor compared to the consequence of the loss of one child, never mind 22,000 children who have lost their lives since this conflict erupted in its most recent form in Gaza. Many soccer clubs affiliated with the Israel Football Association are located in occupied territories, on land which was stolen in the West Bank from Palestinian people. They are illegal soccer organisations, yet FIFA and World Soccer are doing nothing about it. The Government has an opportunity to stand with the oppressed, and that is what it has to do.”
“Yet, here we find it being used as something negative. Genocide and murder are being hidden behind soccer, a game that is so positive. The Government has a job of work to do here. We have to recognise that this is not about the rules of international football; this is about politics. It is about whether we take a stand. It was very interesting to hear about a neutral venue. I think it was Desmond Tutu who said to claim neutrality in the time of oppression is to stand on the side of the oppressor. That is exactly what is being done here with this talk of neutrality. There is no such thing as a neutral venue. There is no such thing as a Government being neutral in a time of oppression. You have to either stand with the oppressed or stand with the oppressor.”
“I thank the Social Democrats for bringing this forward this morning. The truth is we cannot have a situation where the world stands idly by but that is what has been happening, not just in the couple of years since Israel started bombarding Gaza but for decades. For more than half a century, we have seen Israel treat the Palestinian people as not just second class but as third- and fourth-class citizens. People have been mutilated in their own homes. I am often struck by the fact that soccer and football, certainly in working class communities, bring everybody together, particularly those who come from different ethnic backgrounds. We see kids of all races and creeds coming together to play football. It brings huge energy and positivity to society, here in Ireland and around the globe.”
“That is the frustration we have and the frustration felt by the vast majority of ordinary decent people who just want to get on with their lives. They want to have a chance to do a little bit better than their parents before them and to see a future for their children coming after them. That is the problem for so many people. It was said to me the other day that in the past, back in the 1970s and 1980s in this country when things were terrible, people could buy a house and have a future. Today, people are saying their children will not be able to do those things. These are the issues that are impacting people. We need to recognise that the Government has a role to play in assisting people through the ordinary things in their lives as well as the big things in the economy.”
“The Government did little to help them and they felt they were left alone. That is what brought people to the streets. These people were not crazies. They were just ordinary people who felt they were being totally let down. While the Finance Bill is about trying to put in place mechanisms to deliver the measures the Government put in place in March and April, it is really an opportunity for us to tell the Government it needs to wake up to ordinary people's struggles. Ordinary people feel the Government has opportunities to do so much more but continually hides away and pretends that, somehow or other, everything is out of its control and it has to put away money in a big piggy bank for a rainy day. People feel it is raining on them right now.”
“It would benefit hauliers, those who own a school bus that brings children to school but also people who cannot get a school bus and have to bring their children to school themselves. There are many people who have no option but to do that. People who go to work felt the Government simply was not listening. That is why there was such frustration and people took to the streets at that time. Since then, prices have stabilised at a high level and have not come down enough for people who are struggling to survive. The squeezed middle are often talked about. People cannot manage to pay a mortgage because they are under so much pressure. They cannot manage to pay the car loan and everything that is hitting them at all angles. Then, they suddenly found the price of fuel, home heating oil and everything else going through the roof.”
“Older people, people with disabilities and others found it difficult, having come through a long, hard winter when they were already hit with the cost-of-living crisis, that the cost of a fill of oil went through the roof and the Government did absolutely nothing about it. That is one of the big frustrations people had. They felt so let down by all of that. Families who had to bring children to school and those who run small businesses and so forth also found their costs spiralling and, again, the Government did the minimum to help them. That was their experience. It is why we proposed that whatever reduction should come, it should come at the pump so that everybody would benefit from it.”
“We recognise that so many people were suffering so much as a consequence of the fuel crisis that many of them took to the streets and expressed huge frustration about a situation that was outside their control and about which they felt the Government could do much more. We all acknowledge the Government was not able to stop the war that caused the crisis in the first place but it could certainly have done more to ensure people could get a break, particularly when it came to home heating oil. In my part of the country and, I am sure, in the Minister of State's area, the vast majority of people use home heating as their source of fuel.”
“Tagging is practically unknown and in some cases, if one of the small number of animals that are tagged dies, the tag is removed from its ear and put on another's. That is the way the system works. It is a complete wild west, as far as anyone can see. To suggest that somehow or other Brazilian farmers are going to meet the standard in the short term is ridiculous. It is not going to happen. I ask again that the Government commit that the date in September is brought forward and that we ban this substance now.”
“We appreciate that there has been some progress made but we still have a situation where there is no traceability whatsoever with animals, particularly in Brazil. When a calf is born in Ireland it has to be tagged almost immediately. There have to be full checks and records of any medicine or antibiotics it receives. Everything has to be written down and accounted for. They have to meet all the standards. In fact, even the foodstuffs have to be recorded. A farmer told me recently that more records are kept on your calf than on your child in this country to ensure their safety. We recognise that European farmers are meeting a high standard. The farms in Brazil do not meet those standards.”
“We have to stand firm and ensure consumers are protected and that the farming community meets the same standards everywhere for food coming into anywhere in Europe but particularly in Ireland.”
“We are now at a situation where they have recognised the reality so many of us have been pointing out for so long. They say they will ban this product coming into Europe. However, they are not going to do it for another three months. It makes no sense whatsoever. We want an assurance from Government that it will put maximum pressure on the Commission to ensure any ban going to happen with regard to Brazilian beef happens now, and they do not wait any longer for it. If this food product is dangerous, as has been proven, and is not meeting European standards it should not be given a three-month reprieve before we ensure it stops coming into the European Union.”
“In 2019 we had a motion in the Dáil, one of the few motions the Opposition got through before the most recent election, and all of the Dáil supported ensuring we would mandate the Government to stand firm and put pressure on to ensure the Mercosur trade agreement did not go through because of the concerns outlined with regard to Brazilian beef in particular, but other food products from Brazil as well because of the very low standards. We also had a motion this year about this and there was a battle between farmers, consumers and environmentalists across Europe to ensure people in the European Commission would sit up and listen to the realities on the ground with regard to Brazilian beef and other food products coming from Brazil.”
“It is welcome that the Commission has decided it wants to ban Brazilian beef and other food products coming into Europe in spite of the Mercosur trade agreement. It has come to this late in the day. Many of us have been calling out Mercosur and the situation we have with the trade agreement for decades. Deputy Carthy, as an MEP, led the charge in the European Union. At one stage Phil Hogan accepted that they hoped to see foodstuffs taken off the table with regard to the Mercosur trade agreement because of concerns about Brazilian beef. However, it was not taken off.”
“They are the only ones who get any deal, who are sorted out in any way when it comes to all of this. The ordinary people who are trying their best to survive and manage are making no progress whatsoever with this Government when it comes to delivering housing. What we are calling for here is very clear: we need the Government to bring in a strategy whereby it caps rents, freezes rents and bans evictions so that people can have the security of knowing they will not be leaving their homes. If we do not do that, the 51% increase we see will be double that this time next year.”
“We are in a situation where the Government seems to have its eyes closed to the reality of ordinary people on the ground. In his speech, the Minister of State mentioned that there are no easy solutions, that the Government has a long-term plan to deal with this and that caps and trying to freeze rents will not solve anything. It would solve problems for the people who cannot afford their rent at the moment and for those facing eviction. There are thousands of them across the country. I am sure the Minister of State deals with them in his constituency in the same way as the rest of us do. Yet, for some reason, the only thing the Government is prepared to listen to on the housing situation are the corporate interests of the big landlord companies.”
“I commend Deputy Ó Broin on bringing forward this motion. We clearly have a situation where rents and evictions are out of control in every part of the country and it is spiralling at an alarming rate. At the moment, I am dealing with a group of houses in my constituency in Enniscrone, Sonas. It is elder care accommodation beside a nursing home. Older people who live there have received eviction notices telling them they have to move out. They have nowhere to go. Some of them are on the council tenancy list, waiting to get into local authority houses. There are no local authority houses in that area or anywhere in Sligo for them to go to. Others are above the threshold because their pensions are slightly higher, with a couple living in a house and they also have nowhere to go.”
“It washed thousands of acres of peat down the mountain, flooded farmland and destroyed the whole area. All of that was because of the wrong type of forestry on the top of the mountain. The bog land on the top of the mountain was drained and it created a mess.”
“I commend the work that has been done by the farmers in this area and I wish them well as the project continues. I want to mention two other issues that have a big impact on biodiversity. The first is flooding. I speak to farmers all the time who are in areas that get flooded. When flooding happens, every septic tank and town and village water treatment system is washed out across the land and into the rivers. I have also spoken to farmers who told me they were in conservation projects to conserve rare birds in the Shannon Callows and when the floods happen the nests are just washed down the river. All the work that has been done to preserve biodiversity is destroyed when we have flooding. That is a major problem. The second issue relates to landslides. We had a major landslide in County Leitrim on Shass Mountain.”
“Thousands of acres of bog on top of the mountain were planted with Sitka spruce. The Cuilcagh-Anierin is a special area of conservation, SAC, and one of Ireland's largest upland blanket bogs. Pressure stemming from erosion and drainage have damaged the SAC site that encompasses more than 9,700 ha, 11 habitats and seven protected species. The restoration project includes three main actions - erosion control, drain management and invasive species removal. The main invasive species is Sitka spruce trees. The aim is to help vegetation to grow on the bare peat, helping to reduce carbon loss and restore the natural habitat. This mountain is grazed by sheep. It should be noted that sheep are part of the habitat. They help to keep the vegetation in check so that one species does not take over, thereby contributing to the biodiversity in the area.”
“The basis of the scheme is good and there is a lot of good work being done by farmers to improve biodiversity through the scheme, which is building on the work of previous schemes like GLAS and REPS. I also want to mention another project that is taking place in my constituency in County Leitrim - the EU Horizon wetlands conservation project is taking place on Cuilcagh-Anierin mountain range known local as Sliabh Anierin and Bencroy. Until the 1990s coal was mined in Bencroy. I know some old men in my community who still talk about the coal mines there. The coal was used to run the Arigna ESB power station, which was nearby. It is fitting that we are now giving something back to the mountain by helping to restore the peatlands on top of the mountain, which were devastated throughout that time, and the forestry since then as well.”
“Biodiversity may sound like a buzz word but the reality is that it means all life on Earth - from the smallest micro-organism to the largest mammal and the tallest tree. It covers all ecosystems and habitats which shows how all life is connected and dependent on each other for survival, including us humans. Humans are the biggest threat to biodiversity. It is said that over 30% of habitats in Ireland are in decline. We know that agriculture is a significant contributory factor but all the blame cannot be put on farmers. Farmers are doing their bit to help biodiversity and have shown that they will adapt their farming practices to help protect ecosystems and habitats. I and others have been critical of the ACRES, for instance, but my criticism is of the Minister and how the Department has made a shambles of implementing the scheme.”
“They were bringing aid to an area in Gaza which is under siege, where people are hungry, do not have medical provisions and have been tortured and destroyed by war for the past 18 months. Yet we see this international action happening, which is totally inappropriate. I appeal to the Taoiseach to be firm and clear as to what Ireland is going to do in respect of this.”
“I want to raise with the Taoiseach the issue of the flotilla. As he knows, Dr. Margaret Connolly is a constituent of mine from County Sligo. She and 11 others have been detained by Israel on the open seas in international waters. Their boats were invaded and taken over by military force and people were taken by military force back to Israel. We do not know who they are, where they are, where they are being held or what is happening to them. These families are in distress. I acknowledge the Irish consulate is working with them and the work it has been doing there. Politically, the reaction of Ireland needs to be strong, determined and forceful. We need to say clearly to the world that it is not appropriate that Irish citizens can be treated in this way.”
“On the broader issue, we really need to get to grips with putting supports in place for farmers to be able to get the adequate amounts of fertilisers they need to be able to develop their industry.”
“He told me he is applying for planning permission, but to get it, he has to show that he can get a licence to export the poultry litter to the South to be spread. He has been doing this for the past five years from his poultry farm, but he is having difficulties getting those things sorted out. It is not just him. There are several others as well. It is quite a problem because they need to get co-operation North and South in this regard. I ask the Minister to consider sorting out this problem because it is a very good source of nitrogen, especially for the tillage industry but also for other sectors. It is very clearly available and something I would like the Minister to deal with.”
“The fertiliser issue is having a huge impact globally. Even the WHO has said that it is going to have an impact on food production and could lead to global food shortages. This is a real issue that we need to deal with here in Ireland with regard to resilience and to finding alternatives. The Minister mentioned that work has been done on this aspect and I welcome that. One of the alternatives I would like the Minister to note is that there is an awful lot of poultry production in the North at the moment. As he knows, poultry litter is a very good fertiliser, particularly in the context of the tillage sector. I spoke to a poultry farmer yesterday in the North at the Balmoral Show.”
“The problem is that there is no way of judging or guaranteeing it. I welcome the European Union accepting that point and removing Brazil from the list. However, I understand that product is still going to come in from Brazil until September. That is a problem that needs to be dealt with. We really need to accept that Irish farming is under pressure and beef production is absolutely vital to the Irish rural economy.”
“I thank the Minister. I understand that and appreciate there is work being done by an awful lot of people across the European Union from the Government here and other governments in Europe, as well as farm and consumer organisations, to look at all of this and to recognise that the product that has been coming in from Brazil is way below standard. The big problem with it all is traceability. There is no traceability whatsoever in Brazil when it comes to the production of beef. A person can buy antibiotics or hormones across the counter and administer them to the animals and there is no traceability as to what they have had. It is open season. I know there have been suggestions that beef is going to come in from particular factories or farms that comply with European standards.”
“We need to be looking at how we are going to maintain that level of production. The other point I want to get a view from the Minister on is in regard to the beef that is coming into the European Union from Brazil. Some 100,000 tonnes of product was imported, most of it beef, in the last year from Brazil. If the European Union is saying there is a problem with it, why are we waiting until September to do something about it? When it came to implementing the Mercosur trade agreement, they were able to do it provisionally immediately rather than wait. Why do we have to wait for this?”
“I appreciate that the value of products has gone up because prices have gone up. The price that is returned for beef internationally, particularly for higher quality product, has increased over the past number of years. That is because of a reduction in the number of cattle across Europe and many other parts of the world. It is creating that buoyancy in the market. The reality from an Irish perspective is that the amount of beef we produce has actually gone down. We need to look at that. I am not saying why that is. I do not know what the situation is or where we are at here. In the lamb market, we see a similar thing. I have met with people and I know the Minister has met them as well, namely, young farmers who want to get into lamb. Even the factories are asking what the future is going to be because production is going down.”
“I want to ask the Minister about the declining volume of beef exports, particularly to the UK and the EU, over the past 12 to 18 months and the impact it is having on the sector. It is very clear that many farmers out there are not producing to the same level they had been. We also have the situation in regard to the Mercosur countries when it comes to beef, particularly. There is talk of banning beef from Brazil coming into the European Union as of September. That should happen now, not in September. I would like to get the Minister's remarks on that.”
“I know that the marts are vital to this but we should not be in a situation where the Department of agriculture is implementing a strategy and depending on what are private entities - the marts around the country - to communicate what that strategy is. We need to have another way of doing that. That is the difficulty people have. Everybody wants to co-operate and work with this. We just need a bit of clarity around it.”