Martin Kenny
Sligo-Leitrim · Sinn Féin · Ireland
“A debate here for a couple of hours is fine, but I remember being involved in some of the deep talks with people in the early days of the peace process. We sat in rooms and talked about reconciliation. I met Garret FitzGerald on many occasions at the Glencree Centre for Peace and Reconciliation.”
“Of course, we have the areas of natural constraint payments that most farmers on this side of the Border avail of. Unfortunately, those payments are no longer available in the North. Sinn Féin has recommended that the payments should be restored. Farmers need support. Brexit took their support away.”
“I welcome this debate. Such a debate has been needed for quite a long time. The reality is that for many people, the issue of the financial implications of Irish unity has been used as a put-down to try to smother or put a stop to argument and debate. This is a welcome way in which we can open that up.”
“I hope Government will reflect on that and recognise that we need to build a process. There is an energy for reunification among ordinary people the length and breadth of the country. This is about the physical constraints, but is also about identity. Many people who live on this island have a British identity.”
“As the Taoiseach is aware, for many years people with mental health issues have been attending emergency departments in our hospitals. Many of them get very poor outcomes. They experience long delays and end up on trolleys. Sometimes they are referred for short-term stays or to community services, which offer little or no service.”
“I appreciate all that and the farmers forum is a positive advancement on things, but we are back to the problem at the very core of this issue, which is that the chair of Bord Bia has been using imported beef from Brazil as part of his mix to sell product.”
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“As the chair of Bord Bia, the organisation charged with marketing Irish food, drink and horticulture of the finest quality to which the quality assurance mark is attached and with whose standards Irish farmers have to comply, it is unacceptable that he would also run a company that is buying, processing and selling Brazilian beef, which is possibly contaminated, mixed with Irish beef. If the Minister does not understand the huge impact of this when it comes to the farmers of this country and to consumers across Europe and around the world, he does not understand the issue we are dealing with. We on this side of the House are not looking for a head or trying to make political capital; we are looking at reality. The reality is that the person in charge of marketing Irish food cannot also be selling-----”
“We know he has used it as part of his contingency planning, as the Minister outlined. If the contingency planning for the marketing of Irish beef is to mix Brazilian beef in with it, then the Government needs to start being honest with Irish farmers. Is that what the Minister is saying? The Minister seems to have said that we are not listening to the common-sense explanation as to why some Brazilian beef would have to be used in order to gain access to particular markets. That is a dangerous Rubicon to cross. That is the reality. There is a red line that Larry Murrin has crossed.”
“This has been a heated debate, and that is fine. We debate matters robustly in order to make progress, so let us make a little of progress. There are a couple of things that are not disputed. Beef from Brazil has a lot of problems. The system in Brazil is different. The Irish Government opposed the Mercosur deal. We can debate whether it was as wholehearted in doing so as we would have liked, but it did oppose the deal because it recognised - and we take its word for this - that the beef coming from Brazil does not meet the standards that European consumers should expect. There is no dispute about that. The head of Bord Bia imported Brazilian beef that does not meet these standards. That is not in dispute either. He is not coming here tomorrow to tell us whether or not he imported Brazilian beef. We know he did so.”
“Now, the Government and the Minister for agriculture are deciding to take the side of big business, protecting the well-connected rather than standing up for Irish farmers. The message from Irish farmers is clear: we do not have confidence in Larry Murrin, and we want to restore confidence in Bord Bia. It is the Minister's job to remove him. Larry Murrin must go, and the Minister must do his job.”
“It is condescending, to say the least. The IFA is not to blame for this, nor is any other farm organisation. They are not the ones importing Brazilian beef. Their job is to represent Irish farmers, and that is what they are doing. Irish farmers have a right to protest when they feel they are being let down. Irish farmers have been let down by the Minister for agriculture, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, and not for the first time. They put up no opposition to the Mercosur trade agreement, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to vote “No” at the last minute. Then, only half of the Government MEPs voted to send the Mercosur trade agreement to the European Court of Justice.”
“I believe the longer that Larry Murrin remains in his position as chairperson of Bord Bia, the more damage that will be done to the organisation and, unfortunately, to Ireland's reputation. The Government amendment to our motion states that the majority of the board agreed to support the chairman to continue in his office. I believe this is not an accurate reflection of the board meeting where the IFA and the ICMSA proposed removing Larry Murrin as chairperson. There was no vote. It was stated that it was up to the Minister for agriculture to remove the chairperson of Bord Bia. Comments by the Minister for agriculture and other members of the Government that farm organisations are to blame for this controversy, and the description of farmers as getting "emotional" over the issue, are far from helpful.”
“He claims that it is only 1% of the beef he uses, and that may be so, but we all know that Brazilian beef is produced at about 1% of the standards that Irish farmers must comply with. It is blatantly double standards from Larry Murrin, and shows arrogance towards Irish farmers. I wrote to Dawn Farm Foods in the last couple of weeks to ask if it was one of the three companies that imported Brazilian beef last September that was recalled because it contained banned hormones. I also asked the Minister this on a number of occasions. It replied to the question, but it did not answer the question. We do not know what the three companies are. We do not know if Dawn Farm Foods is one of them.”
“Every vaccine medication they get has to be recorded, and those records have to be kept for inspection. There are records of all animal movements. Does the animal have a health plan? Does it have a health safety statement? Does the farmyard have a layout plan? Has it had Bord Bia inspections every 18 months, as well as complete surveys and audits? The level of record-keeping and paperwork is enormous. Irish farmers comply with these rules and conditions in order to maintain Ireland's reputation as a world-leading food producer. It is no wonder, then, that farmers are angry when they hear that the chairperson of Bord Bia, Larry Murrin, is importing possibly contaminated Brazilian beef into the supply of his own company in this country.”
“The problem we have is that the Government and the chairperson of Bord Bia, Larry Murrin, are failing to recognise the importance of Irish farmers and the value of the work they are doing to bring this world-class product to market. Without Irish farmers, the primary producers, there would be no Bord Bia and no world-class produce to go to market. Bord Bia operates the quality assurance scheme, with thousands of farmers participating in it and complying with the very demanding standards. I want to go through some of those standards. As I said to somebody today, a child being raised in this country does not need to have the same level of records as a calf needs to have in the Bord Bia records. That is astonishing, but it is the reality. Everything they eat has to be recorded.”
“We are back here again, unfortunately. I first want to welcome all the farmers in the Visitors Gallery, who represent thousands of farmers around the country, and who are not "emotional", but are extremely angry about this situation. Bord Bia has done amazing work promoting Irish food, Irish drink and Irish horticulture around the world, and it has played an important role in increasing Irish exports to record volumes. The value of Irish food, drink and horticulture is estimated to hit €21 billion for 2025. We recognise the role of Bord Bia, its important work and the importance of the trade missions it is engaged in.”
“I move: That Dáil Éireann: notes: — that Bord Bia's mission statement is to bring Ireland's outstanding food, drink and horticulture to the world, thus enabling growth and sustainability of producers; — the importance of Irish food and drink exports to the Irish economy; — the importance of Ireland's reputation around the world as a food producer; — that the Irish food and drinks industry is dependent on Irish farmers as the primary producer; and — the animal health and welfare standards that Irish farmers must adhere to, and in particular the standards and conditions that are part of Bord Bia's Sustainable Quality Assurance Scheme; further notes that: — Irish farmers and their representative organisations have lost confidence in the Chairperson of Bord Bia, as a result of his company's role in importing Brazilian beef into Ireland; and — continuing as Chairperson undermines public confidence in Bord Bia, and damages Ireland's reputation as a world leader producing food that adheres to the highest standards; and calls on the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to use his powers under section 18 (1) of the An Bord Bia Act, 1994 to remove from office a member of the Board, with immediate effect.”
“With the weather getting warmer, we will see a lot more of these diseases, which have probably been confined to hotter climates, starting to move up. This will be an issue as we move forward. We could get a couple of weeks in March when temperatures are 15°C or 16°C. What will happen then? That is the issue we need to focus on and it is where the vaccine comes into play.”
“I thank the Minister. I want to follow up a little on this. Obviously, these are animals that probably got infected last summer. This will concern many in the agricultural community. Does this mean there are animals on a lot of farms around the country that contracted it last summer but it was not identified, they presented no symptoms and it will only be when they go to the factory and a test is done that it will be found? This is a big concern I have learned about this morning from the Minister. I was not aware of that before now, and I am sure a lot of people were not either. With regard to the spreading of the disease, we are in cold weather now but climate change is probably at the root of a lot of this.”
“We tell farmers to be vigilant but what do they need to be vigilant for? This is really what we need to focus on. The Minister did not get to speak about the vaccines and where that is at. Perhaps we will hear about it at the meeting later.”
“I thank the Minister and I appreciate all of the work that has been done. When I ask where it came from, there is the monitoring of the wind but we are in the winter and the weather is very cold. The likelihood of it coming from midges blown across the Irish Sea is probably minimal, I expect. How much investigation of this has been done? A lot of straw is being imported. Could the disease come with midges in the straw? These are the kinds of questions farmers ask me. People are perplexed that it is here at this time of the year. While I doubt it is the case, is there a connection with the outbreak in County Down before Christmas? That is very unlikely seeing as the cases were in two opposite ends of the country. People would like to get information in respect of this.”
“This question is on the bluetongue outbreak. We saw yesterday that three more farms have been found to have animals with bluetongue. It is a very serious problem and a lot of farmers are very concerned. What is missing from all of this is that we do not know what the plan is. I appreciate we will have a meeting with members of the agriculture committee in respect of this after these questions. We do not know what the plan is. We know that vaccines have been approved. Are there stocks of them? What will happen as we move forward? Where did this come from? That is one of the big questions a lot of farmers have and it is their real concern. What do they need to watch for? How do animals get infected?”
“That again erodes farmers' confidence in the whole system. That is what I am getting at here. All of this is about farmers' confidence in the system. They need to know that, when they are set a particular objective, they will be rewarded when they attain it. That is not how they feel. They are afraid the next CAP will be very much the same.”
“I appreciate that. The Minister also mentioned simplification. Most farmers who have been hearing about simplification for the past 40 years would almost wish that somebody would talk about complication, because it seems to be the opposite that always happens. Every time schemes are brought out, we are told there will be simplification but, in actual fact, it means more paperwork, more red tape and more measures to comply with. We need to start doing what we say. If things are to be simpler and easier for farmers to comply with, it needs to be like that. ACRES is an example. The Minister might say that has been ironed out. I accept that there has certainly been progress in his term as Minister. However, when that scheme was brought out, it was such a mess that the Department did not know how to administer it at first.”
“Is the Minister in favour of scrapping entitlements? Does he want to see a one-size-fits-all payment across all hectares? What are we looking at in the future? We need information in respect of all of this.”
“There was a meeting of the EU's AGRIFISH Council this week. Was progress made on additional funding at that meeting? What is happening? Farmers and people in the sector want to know where matters stand and what progress has been made. I appreciate that the Minister is saying that everything possible is being done and that he is trying to talk to people and so on but we need information and communication around this issue. Without that, farmers will naturally feel they are not being sufficiently looked after. There is also talk of scrapping entitlements. Many farmers, particularly young farmers, had to spend a lot of money to buy entitlements. How is that going to work out? That is key for farmers, particularly young farmers who are not seeing a return on big investments they have put in.”
“The Minister has known me long enough to know that I do not engage in soundbites. I engage in genuine debate. I hope we have respect for each other in that context. The Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, is the most key element in farmers' income because it is sustainable and long-term and they know it is there. However, there is talk of cutting it by 20% to 22%. That equates to a shortfall of about €2.4 billion. What measures will be taken to restore that level of funding for farmers in the forthcoming CAP?”
“If that is the case, then it is a witch hunt to ensure that proper standards are maintained and that people can have confidence in the systems that are in place, which they have to adhere to. If the Minister is going to erode that confidence by keeping this person in place and standing by him, he will have to look at this own position because it is simply untenable to allow these circumstances to continue while farmers are outside the gates of Bord Bia's headquarters protesting about this. They are not there because they want to be there. They are there because the Minister will not take appropriate action.”
“This is all the more reason to ensure we have confidence in Bord Bia. It has done an excellent job in marketing Irish beef and Irish food around the world. We all know that and it is not in dispute. What is in dispute is that the chairperson of a board charged with marketing Irish food is importing Brazilian beef. It is untenable for him to remain in his position. Everyone knows that. The Minister is trying to suggest the that IFA is to blame. Come on. With respect, the Minister has to recognise that there is a serious issue for the whole system. He is eroding the confidence of farmers and consumers in that system. That is what is happening. The Minister is trying to suggest that this is a witch hunt.”
“They should be at home. Their cows are calving at this time of the year and they do not want to be up here protesting. They want the Minister to do the right thing by the sector. That is the problem here. It is not a witch hunt against this person.”
“On the agrifood sector, the regulator has stated it does not have enough powers and resources, and this needs to be brought up to speed. As I said, confidence has been lost in the system. The Minister may say this is a pivot but it is all part of the same issue. The farming community has lost confidence in the system because it is being forced to keep standards, and it is quite welcome that they keep to the standards Bord Bia sets and the standards Europe sets in terms of food safety and all those things. They are all in place. Yet they see the people at the top, who are in charge of marketing Irish beef, importing Brazilian beef at the same. It is just untenable that this man can stay in that position. The Minister knows this and the writing is on the wall. Everybody knows it. The farmers are not protesting because they want to.”
“The Agri-Food Regulator has an important role in Irish agriculture. We need to restore confidence in the system because it has broken down. We still do not know the names of the three companies that imported Brazilian beef earlier this year. Has the Agri-Food Regulator told the Minister the names of these three companies? When are we going to find out? Was Dawn Foods one of these three companies? I ask because we have a situation where the head of Bord Bia is also importing Brazilian beef. He simply has to go, yet the Minister seems to be absolutely determined to protect the well-connected rather to protect the sector. That needs to be called out.”
“That is something the Minister needs to take into account. Returning to the Bill, we have robust legislation in place which needs to be implemented and is not being implemented. Many people who come here do not get a fair crack of the whip because they feel they are not being dealt with adequately. If they are entitled to stay, they should be able to stay. If they are not entitled to stay, that should be implemented as well. This legislation, which takes a one-size-fits-all approach for all countries in Europe, is not appropriate under these circumstances.”
“Even at this late stage, that is why the Minister needs to reconsider signing up to all aspects of this pact. The Government needs to look at this again and come back to what most logical people would recognise the situations to be. We have a particular problem in some parts of the country where people have protested. In many parts of the country, including in my community, migrants, in particular people using IPAS, have settled well and done well. For hundreds of years, Irish people went around the world with their hand out looking for a welcome. In general, they got it, and that has to be recognised. The riots in Dublin were not organised by migrants. The burning of people out of their homes was not organised by migrants. They were organised by far right elements in this country who also need to be stood up to.”
“This particular pact has put forward a set of recommendations, some of which are positive but many of which are not in line with what we need to be doing in this country. That is widely recognised. We have a situation where the committee has looked at this and it has recognised that there are many aspects of it that do not recognise the unique situation we have where we have a border with a non-EU state which is an open border, as it absolutely needs to be. Yet, this pact does not give any recognition to that or pay any regard to it. There are serious issues with it which need to be dealt with. Doing it all as a package is this notion of one size fits all for all countries in Europe. Ireland is an example of a country where one size does not fit all.”
“The responsibility of this service's failure lies with Government and Government must step up to the mark and take responsibility. If the Minister of State is hiding behind reports, she is not taking responsibility.”
“I have written to the Minister of State and raised it with the Taoiseach several times. These two families, including the Loughlin family, want engagement around this issue. Each time we are told that we are waiting for a report or waiting for this, that and the other. The experience of these families is that these reports are blocks in the wall to stop them from making any progress. It was last July that the Minister of State told me here in this Chamber that this report would be ready within weeks and then she would meet the family. That did not happen. What does that tell that family? What does that tell the hundreds of other families around the country whose outcome may not be that the person who was failed by the mental health services killed themselves? Those people are in the same position.”
“Her murder was carried out by an individual already known to State bodies, including the HSE mental health services, An Garda Síochána, the criminal justice system and this was a case involving multiple prior convictions, psychiatric concerns, violent episodes and, most disturbingly, missed opportunities for intervention and public protection. That is Ms McGuinness writing to the Minister. She went on to say: While I appreciate the Department's acknowledgment of our family's loss, I must express my deep frustration that, once again, serious concerns have been met with procedural deflection rather than meaningful engagement. That is the experience of a family that lost a loved one. That was Natalie in 2015. In 2017, another young man, Jimmy Loughlin, was also killed in Sligo by a man who was in the mental health services.”
“Hundreds of people around the country have good outcomes when they access mental health services but there are also hundreds who have very bad outcomes. Many with bad outcomes end up self-harming or worse. For many, the tragedy is that suicide is the outcome but for some, what happens is that person goes on to kill someone else. I want to bring to the Minister of State's attention to people in my constituency. First, this letter is from Jodie McGuinness, whose sister lost her life in 2015. The loss of my sister Natalie McGuinness in 2015 was not an isolated or unpredictable tragedy.”
“There will be problems coming down the road if the resources are not in place for Tusla to follow up on a number of occasions and make visits at random and in depth. We cannot allow more of these things to happen in the future.”
“I do not think there is anything in this legislation to deal with that phenomenon and sort it out. Clearly, there needs to be additional resourcing as well as additional legislation. Without the level of social work resources and social workers that we need, there will be more and more of these situations as we move into the future. I am aware of and deal with a number of situations in my constituency. Some are people in homes where there are serious mental health problems, addiction problems, etc. The children suffer, number one, and they are the ones who have to be looked after. I have come across situations where reports were put in to Tusla and Tusla made a very brief visit and was gone, saying everything was okay.”
“There are children in situations where the tragedy may not come to light until later in life when they approach the Garda or someone else and talk about things that happened in their home or in the circumstances they were in and the agencies that were there to look after them but did not have the resources to deal with it. That is a real problem. Foster care is another element of this. Very often these children are put into foster care. Sometimes it is family foster care. There is an issue with proper oversight to ensure that is done properly. That needs to be examined. Many children are in dangerous situations. Those situations are usually within their own families but we also have children coming into the country alone from other jurisdictions.”
“We clearly have a crisis when we are talking about children who are in real danger, particularly regarding Tusla. While legislation is clearly needed and there is work to be done on that, a big issue which does not ever seem to be addressed is in regard to resourcing. We speak to people in Tusla and the workload and number of files involved are practically impossible to properly deal with. That is one of the reasons so many situations have come to light where vulnerable children have been left in dangerous places and ended up in very tragic circumstances. That is only a part of it.”
“This particular group scheme has not got one pump because all houses on it are kilometres below and with gravity it flows to everybody. The running costs of it are negligible. Yet, Uisce Éireann refuses to give the scheme the small grant its needs to provide the practices that need to be in place to keep the water clean. There is a big problem here. The problem is that nobody wants to think outside of the box. When you create Uisce Éireann or projects like that, it simply closes down everything and no project can go ahead because it has to have its rules and regulations in place. I ask the Minister to keep those points in mind.”
“This group scheme takes its water from a set of spring wells in the mountains. There are thousands of acres. It is a clear open mountain. The water is of the highest quality. Naturally, to meet the requirements, it has to get a small level of treatment. It applied to Uisce Éireann to get the grants to upgrade its treatment facilities. It will not give them the grants. It says, "No. We want to take over your supply." It wants to take it in charge. That is fine. However, when it talked about taking it in charge, it said that if takes it in charge, it will no longer use that water. It will pump the water from Carrick-on-Shannon up the top of the mountain, even though at the moment it cannot supply enough of it for everywhere else.”
“Even if planning permission is given to build 50 houses in places like Mohill, Drumshanbo or other towns, they cannot get a letter from Uisce Éireann saying that they can go ahead with that because the capacity is not there to do it. That is the same in an awful lot of areas. At the moment, for the whole of south Leitrim, water that is treated comes from the River Shannon, outside of Carrick-on-Shannon. There is a big treatment facility there. That treatment facility is at 120% capacity. It is producing more water than it was designed to produce. If there is a burst or problem, we all have a serious issue. That brings me to the example I have written to the Minister about and he has kicked back the letter saying to talk to Uisce Éireann regarding it. There is a group scheme in an area outside of Drumshanbo, which is up on the mountain.”
“It is a public company and, therefore, it has a public responsibility to answer public representatives and it does not do that. The Minister cannot also abdicate his responsibilities around that. That is the first point I want to make, and I hope the Minister hears that point very clearly. We will no longer accept this notion that the Minister - water and local government are covered in his brief - is not going answer questions around Uisce Éireann. Please, make sure that that practice ends in his Department and Ministry. The issues have been well aired regarding various problems in different parts of country. They are no different in my area. They are no different, particularly in parts of County Leitrim, where there are towns where the wastewater system is at maximum capacity already.”
“One of the big issues we have as parliamentarians is when we write to the Minister, he writes back to us and says he cannot talk to us and to talk to Irish Water. That is one of the big problems that an awful lot of Members of this Dáil have. Continuously, I have written to various Ministers, the Minister and the Ministers of State about issues about water. The can is always kicked to Irish Water. All we get from Irish Water is a very curt reply if we get any at all. That is a problem. Irish Water is not a private company. I need to repeat that; it is not a private company.”
“We are now in a position where the Mercosur trade agreement will have to go to the courts and the undemocratic way in which the Commission put this forward will have to be dealt with. However, all is not lost. The cute boyo routine that this Government went into over the past number of months - they were saying at home that they were opposed to it and yet they were doing nothing about it - is now very clear. We are in a position where the Government has an opportunity to support what is going on in the European Parliament and to hold to account the Commission that has done this in an undemocratic way.”
“I raise the issue of the Mercosur trade agreement, which has certainly not gone away. We are in a position over the weekend where we see that Larry Murrin, the chair of Bord Bia, is also the CEO of a company that was providing Brazilian beef. It is simply incompatible with his role in the promotion of Irish food products to remain in that position. That is the first point. We also had good news from the European Parliament this morning because the Mercosur trade agreement has been referred to the European courts because of the undemocratic nature in which it went forward. This vote happened today. It was The Left group in the European Parliament, with which Sinn Féin is affiliated, that initiated this proposal to bring this forward.”
“The other issue we have to recognise relates to what they are doing when they go out to provide the care. It has now moved from being just care services only. If an elderly person needs to have a shower or whatever, they can get that done. However, if they need a few dishes picked up off the table and put them in the sink and run the brush around the floor for two minutes, the carer is not allowed to do it. The carer cannot do that. If there is something spilt on the floor, which could be a slip hazard, the carer is not allowed to mop it up. They are not allowed to that because it is not a care service. That is one of the key things that changed in the past number of years, which an awful lot of elderly people that I talk to tell me is a huge problem.”
“That is something that needs to be looked at. Yet, when the State provides that and 60% of it is provided by the private companies, it is paying nearly double that per hour because it has to pay for the administration fees and the profit margins that the companies have to make. That is their business. Fair play to them. That is fine. The State should be ensuring that they pay adequately. I talk to all of the people on the ground, and they keep telling me that they cannot get carers and people to do it. It is because they are not paying them enough. We need to be pay over €20 an hour to attract people to go in to do that kind of work. That is the reality. If the State does not step up to the mark in respect of that, it will simply not be able to provide that service.”
“As the Minister of State is well aware, there are an awful lot of problems regarding the provision of home packages. One of the big issues that strikes me is the privatisation of it. At the moment, about 60% of the home care packages are provided by private companies. It used to be the opposite way around. It was 60% to 40%. A total of 60% or 70% of packages in years gone by were provided by the State through the HSE. That is still the way it should be done if possible. While this Bill is about regulation, one of the issues is that if a person signs up to be a home care provider at the moment in this country, he or she will be paid about €16 per hour. The minimum wage is €14.15. It is not even €2 above the minimum wage for somebody to go out there and care for an elderly person or a person with disabilities.”
“That is a mark of what his commitment is. Will he make sure that he works with other countries across Europe to block this deal? Will the Government publish what it has done in the past and what it intends to do in the future, as stated in the motion we put before the House, or will it not? At the end of the day, we know where the Government stands. The Government thinks it can ride both horses; it cannot.”
“The Taoiseach, when he was in China the other day, thought that he was at the point that it was nearly palatable, and he was sort of saying that a lot of things have improved and everything is good now. Basically, what he was saying was that the Government was going to vote "Yes" to it - the Minister of State knows that - and only at the last minute was the U-turn done. That is the reality. Everyone knows that. We will put the past behind us. We will put the Government's duplicity and all its nonsense behind us and we will start a new day tomorrow. Will it tomorrow make sure that every MEP elected in Ireland will vote against this agreement? Will the Minister of State make sure they vote against it? Will he make sure his Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael colleagues who are Government MEPs vote against it? Will he do that or will he not?”
“It is a contradiction if the Government says it wants to improve the deal but it is also saying to the same people it also wants to block it. The Government cannot do both and we all know that. We hear it back. We do not live in a vacuum. We hear what goes on in the country and we hear what goes on in Europe also. The truth is, on one side of the Minister of State's mouth over here he was saying he wants to block the deal but when he went out to Europe and European meetings were happening with Irish officials they were wishy-washy, saying well, if we could improve this and if this little thing could be done it might help. It was all about getting the deal improved so that it could be palatable for the Irish Government to sell. That is exactly what was being done.”