Micheál Martin
Cork South-Central · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“At the beginning of April, the Government approved the establishment of the Cork city futures group to guide development of Cork city for the future.”
“We have to have a budget that reflects the need to sustain that level of work in our economy so that people will have access to jobs. The AI issue is causing a lot of concern. I take heart from the investment announced by Intel this week, which will be AI-propelled, actually.”
“Dublin City Council is progressing the establishment of this new legal entity, in line with the timelines laid out in the roadmap; a ten-year integrated area strategy for Dublin city centre to optimise funding and investment and tackle vacancy and dereliction; and accelerated delivery of landmark capital projects in the city centre throug…”
“I propose to take Questions Nos. 15 to 30, inclusive, together. This will be a long answer because there is one task group and one futures group.”
“I think Deputy Hayes was being a bit petty, if that is the word I am looking for, in what he said about Spain. Well, using the word "petty" might be a bit uncharitable today. It is more a Spain is more vociferous than us kind of thing. We have worked very well together on the Middle East. It is a very serious issue.”
“A dedicated body, to be known as The Cork City Futures Group, will work to unlock the city’s full economic, cultural and academic potential, alongside further investment, innovation and infrastructure. I think people are familiar with the terms of reference.”
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“I did not interrupt the Deputy. I would appreciate if I had the same opportunity. Well over 8,000 additional special needs assistants - that is not cutbacks, that is expansion, at an exponential rate. There is huge, growing need. We need to analyse that and reflect on it. That is why we are bringing a therapy-based service into our schools. That is an important intervention and I think one of the more significant decisions that this Government has taken, that there will be a therapy-based service in all our special schools and then moving into the mainstream schools. Because SNAs will not be able to do everything, and let us not pretend they will be able to do everything, as has been suggested by the Opposition.”
“I will take responsibility for the fact that well over 8,000 additional special needs assistants have been allocated to our schools since 2020. Let us have a sense of perspective here. Less of the rhetoric and the doomsday language.”
“An overall review was initiated, but before the outcome of that was comprehensively brought to a conclusion, action was taken in terms of what happened with correspondence going out to schools and so forth. Out of that, many schools gained, and some would have stayed the same and will stay the same. There will be no reductions next year. We will have the workforce planning, which has to happen, and is a good thing. There is also a new circular, which will have some changes compared to the 2014 circular, and the redeployment scheme. It is only then that we should look at a review process. Again, that is with a view to having consideration of the children who need the support. They have to be uppermost in our consideration.”
“It is very positive and progressive. In terms of workforce planning, there is an issue, or perhaps not an issue, but we need to take care to protect SNAs and that they are not asked to do everything in a school. Normally, the process is that the school says it has such a cohort of children in the school who require care and support, and it will require so many SNAs. That gets reviewed or assessed by the National Council for Special Education, and it makes a deliberation on that. There is a process for doing that. It has a panel, which can hear appeals from schools. That is normal, and it has been happening. What has happened in the last two to three years is that only schools that submitted for an increase were considered by the National Council for Special Education. There was not an overall review.”
“When the Government saw the impact of this, it considered it and decided not to go ahead with what was being proposed, and that there will be no reductions in the next school year, and that prior to anything happening, there is a redeployment plan, which, by the way, was sought by the unions - in my view, correctly so. Teachers have had that since the late 1980s. I think it was Kieran Mulvey who negotiated that, with others, on behalf of the teacher unions back then. If schools reduced their numbers, teachers could be redeployed to other schools. If children with special needs are reduced by a natural process, and move on to second level or whatever, the SNAs, rather than being made redundant, will be redeployed to another school as close as possible to the school where they operate. That is a good, positive thing.”
“First of all, as we have outlined already - I said it last week in response to Deputy Bacik - any additional SNAs that were identified by the council as being required by a particular school will get this in the context of that review, so they will get that. The funding is additional to the education budget and will not be taken from any other part of the education budget. It is not an initiative without a plan. The Government never signed off on this at a governmental level, and I would just make that point to the Deputy. The Government did not sign off on this in terms of the 550, and the scale and the impact of it.”
“What we are saying is that we are coming forward with the redeployment scheme and a new circular. I am open to discussion on the role of an SNA but the role of the SNA is primarily for the child, not the school.”
“That is logical and natural. What transpired here was there had not been a comprehensive review for quite a number of years and the National Council for Special Education embarked on one. In our view, from a Government perspective, we believe the building blocks should be in place first - the redeployment scheme, the workforce planning and a new circular, and in addition to that then, continued allocation of resources to a needs-based approach.”
“That will give safety and security of tenure to special needs assistants, as we did for teachers many years ago. There was a redeployment scheme in place for teachers. As regards the teaching allocation, as the Deputy knows, every September, depending on the numbers in a given school, teacher numbers will either increase, decrease or stay the same in that school. If there is a reduced number of pupils in September and the school does not meet a certain cut-off point in terms of pupil-teacher ratio, it loses a teacher. If it is above or at that level, it gains teachers. The same applies and has always applied to special needs assistants, insofar as the needs of children in a given school have to be assessed, and should be assessed, on an annual basis, because things change. Need either increases or it can decrease.”
“From a position where, prior to 2020, there were very few special schools and none at all in the previous five or six years, we have established 16 new special schools since 2020. Some 28% of the budget is now allocated to special education and we have up to 30,000 students in special classes and special schools. The investment made is very considerable and will increase. One of the reasons is that there was a significant increase in the number of children and young people identifying with a disability in the most recent census, as opposed to the census prior to that. It is a very significant increase. That is impacting on our schools and demand. We are correct in that we need to finish off the work that has been done on the redeployment scheme. A lot of work was done on that with all the partners and stakeholders in education.”
“I understand where the Deputy is coming from. She speaks of cynicism. She personifies cynicism in her approach to politics and issues. She does not deal with them substantively or in any considered way. The bottom line is this. If we take special needs assistants alone, in 2020, there were 16,000 special needs assistants. Starting next September, there will be more than 25,000 special needs assistants. The number has gone from 16,000 to almost 18,000 in 2021, 19,000 in 2022, 20,000 in 2023, 22,000 in 2024, 23,800 in 2025 and more than 25,000 in 2026. That is not cutbacks or pulling back. That is not taking special needs assistants away from vulnerable children. That is allocating more resources. It is the same across the board in terms of special education. Investment has been very significant over the past number of years.”
“Ar dtús báire, ní aontaím in aon chor leis an Teachta. Ag déanamh áiféise atá sí. Má fheicimid ar an scéal ó 2021 amach, tá an uimhir SNAs sa chóras agus sna scoileanna ar fud na tíre ag méadú bliain i ndiaidh bliana. Tá an méid infheistíocht ag méadú chomh maith, bliain i ndiaidh bliana. Is léir, maidir leis an Rialtas a bhí againn roimh an olltoghchán agus an Rialtas atá againn anois, is é an meon atá againn ná i bhfad níos mó infheistíocht a chur isteach do leanaí le riachtanais speisialta. Sin bun agus barr pholasaithe agus aidhmeanna an Rialtais.”
“The HSE says those tender processes and services commissioned by those tender processes are governed by separate contractual arrangements with providers. There is an issue there. It is not easily resolved. I will talk to the Minister. There is a one-day stoppage. We do not want industrial action taking place. I appreciate that people feel they need to do it. I will talk to the Minister again and see what we can do about it.”
“I acknowledge the very significant contribution healthcare assistants make to our health system. The difficulty here is there was a Workplace Relations Commission hearing on 10 March last year between ICTU unions and the relevant Departments. An agreement was reached on pay and conditions but that applied to section 39 organisations under the health Acts, section 56 of the Child and Family Agency Act 2013, section 10 of the housing Act and section 40 of the Domestic, Sexual, and Gender-Based Violence Agency Act 2023. It applied to all bodies falling within those. There are many healthcare assistant work and homecare services, such as the Northside Home Care Service, which are funded through a separate, competitive, tendering process. That is a separate mechanism to the funding of section 39 organisations.”
“Obviously it will be after a substantial review. It should be school by school, ongoing and regular, so there are no big surprises like what happened with the letters that were sent by the NCSE when some schools were told they would lose four SNAs. That was never the case. Approximately 68% of those 500 are staying the same and increasing.”
“I have responded to this on a number of occasions this afternoon. We have increased the number of SNAs and will continue to do that. There will have to be reviews on an ongoing basis. Members accepted that in the House this afternoon. One has to evaluate all of the time. Needs change in schools. Some schools have additional need; others may not.”
“The Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O’Connor, has been very focused on this. The implementation will be imminent. These are necessary Bills and we want to get them done and implemented through both Houses and see what more we can do to get rid of these things and protect young people.”
“There is an expansion in the number of SNAs. The number will go up to 25,000 in September from 23,000. I listed earlier that since 2020, we have had an extra 8,000 plus SNAs. That is the level of expansion that has occurred. It is enormous by any standard and that should be acknowledged. There were pressures on certain schools as a result of the recent review and therefore we have paused it. Ministers will engage now with the NCSE and there will be engagement with all the schools that got an indication of a reduction. I caution Deputies on the role and remit of SNAs. They cannot solve all problems in schools; they were never meant to. Their fundamental role is to facilitate and help the participation of children in schools. Other aspects of the needs of those children will have to be supported in other ways.”
“I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. It has always been a complex issue; it is not simple. More than 20 years ago we set up the Commission on Assisted Human Reproduction and it has taken that time to get a legislative framework to deal with the many issues pertaining to assisted human reproduction. I will talk to the Minister for Health in this regard. She has prioritised the commencement of this legislation and the creation of a proper edifice and framework to help people, particularly in respect of the surrogacy issue the Deputy referenced.”
“Clearly, the Deputy was not at a nightclub last night. He is full of the joys of spring, despite the rain and all the rest. Deputy O'Gorman raised a similar issue yesterday. I undertook to speak to the Minister for justice in this regard. Maybe I should have left him take the question. There is a broader issue. Clearly, we will discuss this with the Minister concerned. There was an earlier iteration of this under the previous Government in terms of a broader policy. Towards the latter end of the previous Government, the issue was revisited and there was a reduction in enthusiasm for it, to put it bluntly. The night-time economy is important, in particular in terms of our broader framework for visitors and so on and young people. The nature of nightlife has changed. There is much more autonomy. People are not shepherded into one venue.”
“We will proceed with the increase in the number of SNAs for the school year commencing September 2026. We have budgeted for additional numbers and that will not stop. We will continue to increase the number of SNAs. Our concern will always be to prioritise the needs of parents and children to enable their full participation in school. Special needs assistants are a key part of that.”
“In light of the Revenue Commissioners' ruling, a process involving the drafting and agreement of revised policies has been ongoing within the HSE, involving negotiations with the recognised unions. I understand the process is ongoing. The HSE is obliged to comply with Revenue Commissioners' regulations regarding what is a potential personal use of publicly owned vehicles. I have just received this information. People need to have a bit of common sense and pragmatism. I will speak to the Minister for Finance to see if a regulation needs to be changed so that the speed of first responders-----”
“I agree with the Deputy. There was an internal review by the National Ambulance Service in 2024. It apparently identified potential benefit-in-kind tax liabilities for NAS staff using NAS response vehicles to travel to and from work and the HSE sought a ruling from the Revenue Commissioners on the matter. In the interim, it took the decision to inform staff that there could be an issue, which has led to the result of the Deputy outlined. I am informed that the Revenue Commissioners responded to the HSE with a potential way forward to address the benefit-in-kind tax liability issue. I understand engagement has been ongoing between the HSE and Revenue Commissioners on the matter.”
“I acknowledge the concerns raised in respect of the schools Deputy identified regarding the outcome of the review of their schools and those that perhaps did not get the additional SNAs that they sought and so forth. The Ministers will engage with the NCSE in the context of those schools where it was indicated that there would be a reduction. We want to clarify this issue as quickly as we can. There will be a time lag because we paused the process in order to provide opportunities to re-engage on the issue, and for the Ministers, in particular, to engage with the NCSE and come back to the Government with a resolution framework for this.”
“Beidh an tAire Stáit, an Teachta Dooley, i nGaillimh Dé hAoine. Beidh sé ag bualadh agus ag déileáil leis na grúpaí áirithe ann. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil daoine imníoch faoin cheist seo. Gan amhras, tá an reachtaíocht agus an dlí ann. Tá fonn orainn cearta chosmhuintir na háite agus na dúiche sin a chosaint chomh fada agus is féidir linn. Caithfidh muid é a dhéanamh i gceart, áfach. Is áis nádúrtha tábhachtach í an fheamainn. Caithfidh muid éagsúlacht na háite a chur san áireamh, mar aon leis na nithe eile ar ghá machnamh a dhéanamh orthu.”
“At a time when we are increasing services and increasing numbers, we need to keep a weather eye on outputs, whether we are doing things in the optimal way and whether we can do things more effectively. I make those points generally and without prejudice to the individual case.”
“Obviously I did not attend the committee and am not aware of the full details that ensued but if you were to look at every agency in the country and back at where staffing was three or four years ago - it may not be the case here and I put that reservation or qualification in - there has been an increase generally. Numbers in the public service have risen very considerably. We are going to have to look at methodologies, how we do our business and how we do our work. MABS is a very important service and I am very supportive of it but I am very conscious our public expenditure growth is up to 8% per annum, which is quite significant. We have good, robust public finances and we are being criticised for spending too much by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and others and some economists worry about that too, so we need balance here.”
“Again, I do not have the full details or specifics of the case but the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, will undertake to examine it and understand the full background of it before making commitments in respect of it.”
“Robust age verification is part of the infrastructure we need to build to protect our children online. Our counterparts in Europe are of the same view on how to achieve this and we will work together to ensure the online realm is safe for children. Piloting, by the way, is about evaluation, asking whether it works and whether it has other implications. The intention is that it would be privacy-preserving and would protect people's rights but we will explore all that too. The other side of the coin is we need to enable children through programmes in our education system to be more resilient in terms of what they face in the modern era.”
“Russia's invasion is and has been an horrific act, violating not just territorial integrity but also causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, including Russian soldiers, Ukrainian soldiers and the appalling attacks on civilian infrastructure. Circumvention of sanctions has been a feature of the war. Europe has tried everything it possibly can, including the appointment of a former Secretary-General of the European Commission, Irishman David O'Sullivan, to try to deal with the circumvention of sanctions across the board. I read the report this morning. There is no suggestion that the companies themselves have done anything illegal, but we will pursue this and follow it through. It is concerning. The circumvention has been a feature in many areas of the war and many aspects of supplies to Russia and so forth.”
“The Ministers will engage with those schools and with the National Council for Special Education on that review. The schools themselves have appealed the decision, or will have appealed it, and there will be engagement.”
“At the heart of that reform is a clear focus on affordability, accessibility and the achievement of high-quality early learning and care to deliver on our commitment to reduce the cost of childcare to €200 per child per month over the lifetime of this Government.”
“Investment has grown significantly. It is up 12% again this year compared with last year. The sector will receive about €1.5 billion this year, but demand will grow. We also have to keep an eye on the quality of childcare that is provided as much as on capacity. That is why investment in the workforce is important. A total of €45 million has been provided this year in ring-fenced funding for another wage order on top of the €45 million that was provided for last year. We are making incremental progress on pay for childcare workers. An online consultation on the early years action plan is under way, alongside local and national consultation events, ensuring that reform is shaped with providers, educators and parents. That is important.”
“The early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme benefits over 105,000 children. The Equal Start programme is also expanding, with more priority services and the Bia Blasta nutrition programme. That said, we know there is more to be done, particularly on the reduction in the cost of childcare. We also need to increase places so there is easier availability for parents in terms of childcare places closer to where they live and work. Given the exponential growth in employment participation in this country over the last decade, as the services have expanded, the demand and challenges have expanded, too. I am fully cognisant of the issue the Deputy has raised, as I know the Minister is.”
“Some pay significantly less, depending on their income. We have introduced fee caps to services participating in core funding of €295 per week for a standard full-day place and €354 for services operating longer hours. From September, we will increase the income thresholds under the scheme and core funding has seen a 62% increase since it was introduced in 2022. Participation is now strong, with 93% of services involved. Over 4,590 providers have signed up. That is the highest level to date. That allows us to maintain fees at 2021 levels. We also need to support providers with new sectoral pay agreements. We must consider places, human resources and staff, and getting the fees down even further. There is additional capital funding this year to create 2,300 additional childcare places.”
“I thank the Deputy for raising an issue that is very close to her heart and for which she is advocating strongly. The €200 childcare cost is a programme for Government commitment. We will progressively implement that. The next budget will be important in that regard, in addition to what has been achieved already. We accept that childcare remains a very significant cost for many families and affects participation in the workplace, the proper care of their children and identifying the developmental needs of their children. Through the national childcare scheme, about 270,000 children will be supported next year, which is about 27,000 more than this year. After subsidies are applied, parents in some instances will pay no more than €198.70 per week for a full-day place of 40 hours to 50 hours.”
“On civil liberty grounds, he is now saying not to do that. Perhaps we need proper engagement in the House. In first three minutes, the Deputy spoke about how terrible we are in not protecting children and so forth. We are coming up with an age verification tool to protect children and he is telling us not to do that if it has implications for civil liberties and so on. That is basically what he is saying. However-----”
“The Deputy spent the first three minutes attacking and condemning us and the last minute saying that if we are going to do something to protect children, we had better be careful not to do it. He has his reasons on civil-----”
“It has been established fairly quickly in relative terms as our online safety and media regulator under the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022. Europe has enacted the Digital Services Act and the EU terrorist content online regulation. They all form part of our framework. We have an online safety code implemented by Coimisiún na Meán and further work is being done on that. With regard to the European Union, we work with our European Union colleagues in terms of the regulatory environment to make sure we have the strongest possible frameworks in place to protect children. Admhaím gurb é an rud is tábhachtaí ar fad ná leanaí a chosaint. Níl aon amhras go bhfuil dainséar ann. Déanann sé damáiste do leanaí. Caithfidh muid gach aon iarracht é sin a stopadh.”
“It actually has worked. It is only one of many things we have to do, but maybe if people stopped the knee-jerk necessity of attacking Government for the sake of it because, from their perspective, they think it is the right thing to do, we could focus on the issue of the protection of children. In that instance, it was to give space to children to allow them to concentrate and socialise within the school environment. It is very good. It has worked and it is a good idea. It is something that Northern Ireland did before us on a pilot basis. We need to do more in terms of age verification and we are looking at integrating an age verification tool into Ireland’s digital wallet. A voluntary pilot is envisaged in the coming months. Coimisiún na Meán is now at the heart of our online safety framework.”
“The Opposition attacked it. I cannot recollect whether Deputy Tóibín attacked it, but the Opposition said it was a waste of money and the wrong thing to do. The Deputy probably did attack it. The point is-----”
“Certainly, we can have an holistic, integrated approach to what is horrific criminal activity and behaviour in terms of presenting, enabling or facilitating access to hardcore pornographic material for children. That is illegal and against the law, and it will be prosecuted. If, by “integration”, the Deputy means integration with the Courts Service or decisions of judges, we cannot do that because we have the separation of powers. The Deputy knows that. We cannot dictate to judges. We can enact laws and there is work under way in the area of online safety, particularly for children. It is a whole-of-government priority. We want young people and children to be safe online. It was interesting last year that when we brought in the pouches for schools and allocated about €9 million to it, there was an outcry in the Dáil.”
“I am answering the question. The Deputy's attitude is that we can go to 26,000, 27,000 and 30,000 and it will be fine. That is not the full answer. In every area of policy, that is her answer - no analysis, no attempt at evaluation. Are we doing the right thing? Is this getting the optimal outcome for a given child? We need multidisciplinary approaches; that is my view. We need more SNAs. We are employing more SNAs. There will be up to 25,000. There will be 1,700 extra by September 2026. That is an increase.”
“Sorry. We have increased significantly the number of special needs assistants. I would welcome a proper engagement on this subject. The fallback position from Opposition all the time is "more, more, more, more". We should look at optimal deployment of all resources in our education system and at outcomes. There have to be reviews. Surely people are not suggesting we will never have reviews. There are limits-----”
“It is governed at the moment by the circular of 2014. There is a workforce plan for the SNA role. That is not completed in terms of clarity, direction and consistency within the entirety of the workforce. There has been a lot of progress in terms and conditions for special needs assistants over the last number of years and that will continue.”
“In my view, the health-based approach that was there from 2013 onwards was not optimal and did not succeed in terms of progressing disability. There are ongoing challenges and issues around that. We said from the outset there would be therapies in our schools. Special needs assistants have key roles in respect of facilitating the participation of children with intellectual, physical and sensory disability in our schools. It should and must be part of a multidisciplinary approach, ultimately. To me, that is the approach that ultimately will benefit children. I think taking therapists out of special schools in the last decade was a mistake. That is why we are correcting it now with a schools-based approach. I do not want to conflate therapies in total with the SNA issue, but SNA numbers have expanded.”
“That is why we are bringing in a school-based therapy service to have an optimal approach to enabling children to be in a position to communicate properly and effectively from early in their lives and to get help in that regard. That is why the language classes came in many years ago. Across the country we have specialist language classes that do very well in helping children with language difficulties early in life and reintegrating them into primary schools. We need more of that. Fundamentally, we need more therapists and multidisciplinary teams in our special schools and, ultimately, in our mainstream schools. I committed to this at the outset of this Government. I made it an election red-line issue that we would have therapies in our schools. There was resistance in different quarters.”
“With respect, I know the full needs of every child. They extend beyond the physical. It is a bit much of a question to ask but we will leave it at that. I am a parent as well. I was a teacher. My fundamental objective in politics is to realise the potential of every child in this country. In terms of SNAs, the 2014 circular is clear on the sensory needs and the role of SNAs in relation to that. A workforce planning exercise is under way in consultation with all stakeholders as to the optimal role of SNAs. In terms of communication and so forth, in my view therapies are essential. We do not have an adequacy of provision in therapies in terms of communication for every child.”
“In terms of the SNA redeployment scheme, the Deputy must know that the Department has been working with the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and education stakeholders, including Fórsa, to develop an SNA redeployment scheme to retain experienced SNAs in our schools. A circular on this new redeployment scheme is being finalised and will be issued in the coming weeks. There are no cuts, obviously - no school is losing any SNA - this school year.”
“Yes, I was just making the point. I presumed the Deputy did not and that is what I was saying. If the Deputy accepts that there are reviews, then reviews can work both ways because of changing need. A lot of schools get increases when those reviews are done. I think the mistake made here is that there has not been a comprehensive review for quite a number of years. The NCSE endeavouring to correct that in one year is, in my view, not the correct approach. That is why it has been paused. We will ensure the Minister, Deputy Naughton, the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and the officials will engage with the NCSE. We will also engage with the schools. Many of those have already appealed, as they do, and we will try to resolve these issues with the schools on an ongoing basis.”