Victor Boyhan
Agricultural Panel · Independent · Ireland
“It also mentions the agrifood sector and the importance of diversification in agriculture, the maritime sector, coastal communities and fishing communities in terms of rural policy.”
“I know from my engagement with both the Department and the Minister that over 900 submissions to the consultation process were received. No Member or parliamentarian will have had the opportunity to consider the anonymised version of these consultations, which contain many good suggestions in favour of the regulations and many concerns in…”
“I welcome the Minister and the official to the Seanad. This is particularly important Private Members' business. I thank Senators Collins and Tully for setting out the background and the rationale behind their Private Members' motion. I acknowledge the Minister's exceptional commitment to rural Ireland and his Ministry.”
“I am conscious of the Minister's public consultation, and I acknowledge it and thank them for it, in relation to the Our Rural Future work programme in 2025. In fairness to him, he did not stop at that. I received a further update when I requested it from his office very recently.”
“This will come about through that process. It is for the Minister to decide. Maybe he will do so tomorrow when the regulations are dealt with. However, when Senators are in this Chamber discussing these regulations tomorrow, they will have no sight of any constituent who made a submission. That is my first item.”
“I am pleased to see Senator Byrne in the Leader’s chair. I wish him well in that job. I also wish him well in his new position as Government Whip. There are three items I wish to discuss today. First is the exempt development regulations, which are being covered extensively in the media.”
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“No less than them, I also pay tribute to those members of all parties and none who have advocated strongly. There is a real focus now and a feeling that something needs to be done. I looked at the commentary of the 100% Redress campaign but I also looked at members of Sinn Féin, who are very strong in this area as well, as are all parties. The common themes are that all rental properties and those being zoned at community level by local authorities and community-based organisations should be included in the scheme; a grant rate must reflect the cost of the rebuild in accordance with modern building regulations; emergency funding should be released quickly to the most vulnerable and all those occupying unsafe properties; and an audit is required of all public buildings to understand the full extent of the problem.”
“Ms Beard said many householders cannot come up with the upfront costs they need to participate in the scheme, they cannot make up the shortfall between the grant and the building costs and there is not enough accommodation for these families to be rehoused at a time of housing crisis. I do not doubt that the Minister understands all of that, because I know he does. That is important. I want to look back. That is one of the reasons I took the example of the 100% Redress campaigners. Let us be realistic. They received a mandate in the local elections – Joy Beard in south Inishowen, Tomás Seán Devine in Letterkenny, Ali Farren in north Inishowen and Denis McGee - and we have one 100% Redress TD. There was clearly a lot of anger, disappointment and expectation. They have democratic mandates from the people they represent, as do others.”
“Members may have heard on the BBC the other night commentary on Donegal in regard to this matter. I am sure RTÉ did likewise. I want to touch on a few issues. The Department confirmed that more than €235 million has been spent on redress so far. It says that, as of October, 1,700 remediation determinations have been issued so far, with remediation works completed on more than 320 buildings and commenced on more than 1,000 others. However, a member of Donegal County Council, Joy Beard, who is one of the 100% Redress campaigners, expressed serious concerns and warned that thousands of families are still in dire straits, living in homes where the conditions are unsafe and unhealthy in the run-up to Christmas. Whether it is the run-up to Christmas or to Easter, nobody should be in that situation.”
“I welcome the Minister and his officials. I acknowledge the enormous amount of work that has been on this matter. I served for nearly ten years on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government and this was a matter we discussed at great length. Senator Blaney is right that there were many detractors of some of the proposals. Emotions ran high in both Houses, but we must remember that we are talking about people's homes. We are talking about people who were strapped for cash and whose homes were crumbling under the ground. There was an expectation that they could build like for like. I do not say I agree with that, but that was an expectation. I know Buncrana and that part of Donegal more than other parts, but today I want to just focus on Donegal.”
“Maybe the day will come when we will provide legislation to allow certain councillors to be full time, if that is an option they wish to pursue.”
“I say to the proposers of this amendment, I support the amendment. I know what they are trying to do. We need also to progress. What are the needs? Is it individual secretarial services or administration services? Is it about giving councillors more money so that they can procure individual secretarial services? I do not know. However, councillors need more support. I agree with other speakers that we need to address the issue of their pensions. It is unacceptable. A councillor met me yesterday. I will not say from which party but he was on party business here and he said he has 30 years' service in the Munster region but will only get 20 years' recognition. That has to stop. That is not fair or right. However, I acknowledge there have been vast improvements, which is really important, and we can do a lot more.”
“Many people would like to be in public life but they can give it the time due to their family commitments. Their own security, jobs and professional trajectory sometimes does not necessarily allow it. Of course we all want to support councillors but we want to do it in a meaningful and effective way. The easy option is to come in here and say it is all terrible. I am not in the business of doing that, because councillors are no eejits. They have been around for a long time. They have been around many a corner and have heard many promises from people inside and outside these Houses and they put them in their right place at each Seanad election. There is no automatic pathway into these Houses. We demonstrate our commitment to our work on a broad political agenda. People know when people are genuine and when they are committed.”
“She was here last week addressing a meeting the Independent Senator Frances Black and others organised and she made a very strong case. Councillors want to do the job but they need the support. Local government is very challenging. There are huge complexities in our communities ranging from crime, addiction, drugs to housing and a councillor is, as Senator Fitzpatrick said, the person of political interest, and that is a challenge for people.”
“I am somewhat disappointed that the timed amendment is for 12 months. I would have understood had the Minister of State come in here and said we will defer this until the task force completes its work. That is reasonable and it is still open to the Government to come back earlier if it wishes, I presume. I urge the Minister of State to consider when the task force on local government completes its work - I understand that will be around Easter or a bit longer - that he might come back to the political groupings in both Houses to see whether can we bring this legislation forward slightly. I thank Councillor Malone for being here because he has been consistently advocating on behalf of councillors from LAMA, and the very distinguished AILG president, Councillor Mary Hanna Hourigan from Senator Ahearn's neck of the woods.”
“Like Senator Ahearn, my proudest moment in political life was the first day I entered the Town Hall of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown where I grew up. Circumstances brought me there, nothing else, and I chose to live there for all of my life and I still live there and am very proud of that. I am a citizen there nearly before I am a citizen of Ireland. I feel so proud of the streets and of the place. Every day I went in there the hair stood on my back, moreso than coming into Seanad Éireann or Leinster House. I fundamentally believe in the power of local government and subsidiarity. You are effectively a bit of a parish priest, therapist, counsellor, and a whole load of things but you are an advocate too. What makes local government really important is that one is also a stakeholder in the decisions.”
“There was a long protracted discussion, debate and engaging with the stakeholders and others such as sitting county managers and local government and department officials, the engagement took place in the Chamber, so it is on the public record. What was very interesting was we came up in the end with a very substantial report with 25 key recommendations and I have them here. It was very clear and did not need any explanation. When I was first a councillor I did not get a penny, quite frankly. I handed in a bill and I scratched out in red ones that were used for political reasons. The maximum I could get was £11 or something. That meant exposing all my telephone numbers to everybody anywhere and explaining to the county manager. Anyway, times have moved on and I am glad they have.”
“I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, who is no stranger to working in local government. Indeed he has served in local government and worked within the Department and I want to acknowledge his work. I also acknowledge Mr. Tim Carey who is here from the Department and heading up local government and has vast experience in it too. I acknowledge his work, the Minister of State's work and the Department's work. I thank the independent Senators who brought this Bill forward. It is a very simple Bill, with only three sections to it, but it is very focused and I commend them for bringing the amendment. I also acknowledge the Cathaoirleach. He established the Seanad Public Consultation Committee on local government and many of the Members here were actively involved in that.”
“I will certainly make contact with the Ombudsman for Children tomorrow and see what his views are on it. There are challenges for us all and we may have been going along with our eyes slightly blinded or closed but surely this is an issue of significant importance. The best way to test it and pursue it is through some sort of Private Members' motion or Bill and we should work to do this. We have had an important debate and we have learned from it.”
“The challenge the Minister of State has put up to us is that there is concern about the ratification in domestic law. This is my takeaway from this. Am I sorry that I pursued this line of engagement? No, because from this engagement I am going away having learned more from the Minister of State on certain segments of it. I am now more determined than ever that this needs to be highlighted at the highest level possible. There are challenges for us but this is what parliamentarians do. They have to be pragmatists, they have to meet, they have to engage and they have to see whether there are other opportunities for legislation. I have no doubt this is something that is not going to go away. I have no doubt the media will pick up on this. I urge the advocacy groups looking in here to rigorously and robustly pursue it.”
“At this stage, I am conscious that we need to move on. The Minister of State has stated her position. I have stated mine. However, it has been a wake-up call. As I say, my takeaway is that both of these conventions have not been worked into domestic law. I am already drafting in my head Private Members' business that I will table. I will engage constructively with Ministers, as I always do. Clearly this is something I will certainly be writing to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste about in the next few days. I will also write to the various mental health spokespersons in the parties. We have a strong line in the Opposition in the Seanad on it. We are legislators. We are mature and big enough people, and we will talk, laugh and engage after this debate. I have no doubt our paths will cross.”
“I want to thank the other organisations that have been in touch with me, including Mental Health Ireland. The Government is spending a lot of money on assistance and financial support for advocacy groups. I got a bit a of a handle on that today. It is important in a democracy that we support advocacy groups. This is a weakness in the Bill and it needs to be rectified. I hear what the Minister of State is saying. That is her call. She is ultimately the Minister of State and is driving the Bill through, and I respect that.”
“We all believe in it. I am not sure what the proposals are. I do not know what the Minister of State's advice was. She might share it with me if she can. She might not be in a position to do so, which I understand. Has there been discussion at Government level? I note the Minister of State's point that there must be a whole-of-government approach rather than one involving any one segment of the Government. I note that but I wonder whether there is now a commitment to make this a priority. The Minister of State has highlighted it here and in other places. I am flabbergasted to think about whether these conventions mean anything. In fact, they are not incorporated into domestic law. I could go on at length about this. I reassure the Minister of State that my only motive is not to block any reform of mental health. It is really important.”
“Let us be clear for people listening tonight and tomorrow to these proceedings, which will be on the record, that nobody in this House on any side wants our children incarcerated under any circumstances. We have been talking about this for years, and report after report has condemned the fact that vulnerable children have been put into adult care settings. Whose interest is paramount in all of this? The psychiatrists, psychologists and gardaí will all have their interests but children are of principal importance. What we are discussing is the weakest part of this legislation. I am not here to knock this legislation; I am trying to improve it. We are the advocates for the children. We should cherish all the children of the nation equally and support them. This is central to our being. I do not see anyone who has a veto on this.”
“I would have thought that because the Minister of State has been working on this primary legislation for a long time and became aware at some point of the position on the important conventions, she would have tried to incorporate them into legislation. This Bill could be referred back to committee. Technically, that is possible. I am not in the business of frustrating legislation. I have five amendments and believe three were ruled out of order. The all-encompassing amendment that I came up with, No. 36a, covers the areas of debate I wanted to raise with the Minister of State. That is important. The issue of age-appropriate care is important.”
“I was not aware of what the Minister of State told us today about the conventions. I put my hands up in that regard. It demonstrates the benefit of teasing out, line by line, the legislation. I was simply not aware that neither of the conventions has been incorporated into Irish law. I would love to know who will prioritise this and how it will be prioritised. I would have thought a Minister would come in here one day and say it is on the Government's agenda. This has to be regarded as important. My colleague Senator Clonan has been doing amazing work on disability. I do not even know if he was fully aware of what I have referred to.”
“No. We are the policymakers, the legislators. It is a challenge for us. It is a failing that it is not a priority. I do not know whether anyone thought this issue was important enough to put into the programme for Government. I do not have it in front of me. What I do know, however, is that the issue was not accorded sufficient priority by those who have been in government for many years in some shape or form. There are amazing, strong advocates on the Government and Opposition benches in the Seanad who have advocated very strongly for the disability sector, children, justice, equality, care, and compassion and empathy for people less fortunate than ourselves or who are particularly vulnerable. I am referring to both children and adults. Anyone who is vulnerable needs support.”
“What is really important is her statement that the UN convention was not incorporated into domestic Irish law. Is that not a challenge for us as politicians on all sides of the House?”
“It is unacceptable for anybody to advocate, allow or accept the continuation of a situation in which children do not get age-appropriate care. All children are entitled to it. We have got to put our money where our mouths are and our resources where they are needed. We need age-appropriate accommodation for all our children. It is not appropriate to incarcerate any child with an adult in a psychiatric care situation. There has been a litany of abuses of children in all forms of institutional care, but not necessarily to do with mental health. There are worries for both the child, who is paramount in any debate, and the institutions themselves. The Minister of State has explained, and I fully accept, that she has devoted a lot of time to this.”
“There is a lot in that, and that is why it is taking so much of our time. However, I too am emotional and passionate about this. I have spent my entire life as an advocate. I do not see myself ever as a politician but as an advocate, and this is one of the areas in which I have always advocated because I believe in the cause in my very heart and being. Also, I have lived experience of it. Therefore, I put great store in the Ombudsman for Children. Any time he is here, I seek to engage with his presentations. I have great support for the Children's Rights Alliance. I wholly believe in the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in its entirety, just as I believe in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.”
“If the Minister of State is not going to accept it, it is not going to get me very far today but it puts on the record that this is the Government's position and it is not prepared and it does not see it as an important priority. I cannot anticipate what advice it has received. I find it extraordinary that these groups who advocate strongly for these UN conventions and the comfort these sectors are receiving from this convention will not be embedded in this primary legislation in terms of mental health and mental health reform.”
“To suggest that there is a difficulty or to cast doubt, the Government somehow feels it has to take cover or take advice on the basis of not putting them into the Bill. I do not know why; I cannot guess. It is right that they should put into the Bill. It is an important one. It is a statement. We talk about legacy in politics and people. This is a simple ask. I did not write these conventions but I support them. The Government supports them and, therefore, they should be embedded in this legislation. I am not going to go on at great length because we have had a long debate on these two issues. I have two options. I either bring it to a further debate on the next section or press it to a vote.”
“I would have thought that what I have put forward is quite simple. I do not think I could make it simpler. There is a desire for advocates in terms of children and disability. We have had many debates on it in this House. I want to single out Senator Clonan and others who have pioneered a lot of work in the disability sector and in the children's sector and to highlight the importance of that work. This is a simple ask. I am conscious also that we have an excellent Ombudsman for Children and am aware of his constant advocacy work in respect of children. These are two conventions that the various advocacy groups are constantly promoting. The Minister of State rightly stated that we are signatories to these conventions. I do not know which attorney would suggest that there was a difficulty with them.”
“I will just respond to the Minister of State. What she said is disappointing in light of the representations. I do not see any conflict in the overarching acceptance. If there is no difficulty with the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, I do not understand why they cannot be embedded in this primary legislation. Let us be clear as to what I am asking for here. The amendment proposes to include the following wording: ... in line with the best interests of the child, this section must be fully compliant with the United Nations Convention on Rights of the Child (UNCRC) and the United Nations Convention on Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD) of which Ireland are signatories ... The Minister of State pointed all that out and told us when the convention was ratified.”
“Rather than continue talking and reading out what I had prepared, it might be more productive to listen to the Minister of State and hear her rationale and the reason for it. Perhaps we will meet in the middle, but I do not know because I cannot pre-empt what she will say. I will hand over to her, if that is possible, and I will then respond, if that is permitted.”
“I spoke to a number of people, and I thought this might be very much a broad brush-stroke that would catch many things. The Children's Rights Alliance has promoted the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. I will not go into that at any great length. There is also the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which contains many articles. I looked at Article 7. I was conscious that there is a reference to this in the explanatory memorandum to the Bill. That prompted me to further investigate the issue. These memoranda are very handy. It is not my work; it is the work of the Minister of State's officials and the Parliamentary Counsel. This relates to section 10 and the guiding principles that apply in respect of children.”
“The amendment reads: In page 22, after line 38, to insert the following: “(a) in line with the best interests of the child, this section must be fully compliant with the United Nations Convention on Rights of the Child (UNCRC) and the United Nations Convention on Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD) of which Ireland are signatories;”. We went through this at some length. I will give the Minister of State a brief rationale of why I am bringing this amendment forward. She will have considered matters at this stage and she will know the position that she best wants to promote here. Amendments Nos. 39, 40 and 57 in my name were ruled out of order. That is not the Minister of State's call; it is the Cathaoirleach's call. Those amendments sought to make the sanctions more robust. I came back at it.”
“I move amendment No. 36a: In page 22, after line 38, to insert the following: “(a) in line with the best interests of the child, this section must be fully compliant with the United Nations Convention on Rights of the Child (UNCRC) and the United Nations Convention on Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD) of which Ireland are signatories;”. I submitted this amendment because we had not reached section 10, and it was open to me to submit an additional amendment. It very much hinges on many of the issues I talked about.”
“I do not know the process or if the latter has made submissions directly to her, but she will be aware of that organisation in any event. Could the Minister of State indicate whether there are particular concerns - if they come to mind, but she should not worry if they do not - that are included here or whether she has a view on that?”
“I will be brief on this. I do not propose to talk at great length on this group of amendments because we will have another opportunity in a few minutes. Has the Children's Rights Alliance been in touch with the Minister of State on areas around this particular section of the Bill? It is very much focused on children and the courts. I have had some correspondence, but I wanted to ask if the Children's Rights Alliance had been in touch with her. What is it saying to the Minister of State or her officials? Have its concerns been considered as part of this? The Minister of State might say that it is pretty obvious, but I do not know. That is not a trick question, I am just looking at some correspondence from the Children's Rights Alliance.”
“We need clarity and certainty as to the Irish Government's decision to support the IFA and other farm organisation and the beef sector in relation to Mercosur.”
“A number of colleagues here were with representatives from those organisations yesterday, as I was, at the Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food. However, there are serious issues of no evidence of practise of effective controls of medicines used in farm animals, no national traceability system for cattle in Brazil, and no credible means to certify beef coming from there into the European market. We know there has been a recall of Brazilian beef right across Europe and in the UK and Northern Ireland. It is a challenge. It is a threat to Irish sustainable agriculture and the meat industry. We should have a debate on it. I will leave the Leader with this, however. The key ask I took away from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food yesterday was what the Irish Government is doing.”
“Suggestions are in the ether and in the air already this morning that there may be litigation against this agreement. We, as parliamentarians in these Houses, need to fully understand what is being signed up to, what has actually been agreed and what the specific terms are in relation to the special nitrates directive for Ireland. I would like to know more about it. I think everyone else in this House would like to know more about it. We need to be equipped to fully understand it. I concur with the comments from Senator Daly on the matter. Finally, I congratulate the Irish Farmers' Association, IFA, and Irish Farmers' Journal , which did a very extensive piece of work and collaboration in relation to Mercosur.”
“I have three issues. I share Senator Fitzpatrick’s concerns about The Complex. Indeed, I had a number of calls, one of which was from the director, Vanessa Fielding, who wished me to refer to the issue here. Her key message was that it is not the Minister for arts or heritage they want to speak to but the Minister for Finance. I want to pass that on. That was not suggested earlier, but that is actually who they want to speak to and see in relation to The Complex arts space in Dublin. I will leave that as a request to be conveyed, if relevant, but it is important that I ask that for Vanessa Fielding because I know she is listening this morning. Second, I concur with Senator Daly in his comments and suggestions on the nitrates directive. It is important that we have a greater understanding of what has been agreed.”
“I agree with Senator Black but that may be coming along in a later amendment and so I am going to take a lesson from the Minister of State and sit down, shut up, be patient and take it when it comes. Point taken.”
“Is it those of the HSE and the people entrusted to care for these children or who are meant to be entrusted to care for them, is it the psychiatric services or is it their guardians? What is the weighting of these rights? The Minister of State understands what I am getting at. How can we ensure that this cohort of exceptionally vulnerable people is protected and has independent advocacy that puts them at the heart of the decision-making process?”
“This matter relates to the right to special advocates, particularly for 16- and 17-year-olds who are children. There are various terms regarding consent in respect of medical issues, which the Minister of State has already explained and which I and everyone else here knows. The Minister of State indicated that advocacy is a central plank of the reforms in the Bill, and there is this particular group. The Ombudsman for Children and other agencies have strongly advocated that every person accessing mental health services should have the right to access independent advocates to support them. I said to the Minister of State last week that there are many people on our streets who are children. They have complex needs. They have many and diverse needs. They have little or no support. Whose interests best prevail?”
“Sorry, but I am still standing. That is all I am asking. Can we just move on? It took a long time to get that simple response. The amendments are compliant. I am happy if the understanding is they are fully compliant with the two UN conventions. Will the Minister of State just say that?”
“Hold on. We are getting places. I started by asking whether the Minister of State could give me reassurances that these amendments are fully compliant with the conventions. She is happy to stand over them and say "Yes". I am happy with that. Let us keep the language simple.”
“I will reply to the Minister of State on a few things she said. I had indicated to speak back on it. I did not suggest she was incompetent at any point. I want to be clear on that. I have a lot of respect for her. She has her knowledge. I put that on the record genuinely because I am sincere about that. I do not doubt her ability. I have every confidence in her ability. She has been at this for years. I simply asked her a question and in calmness I ask it again. I am not going to repeat it all again. I asked about compliance with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The Minister of State's response, which I wrote down, was to ask whether I honestly thought the Government would do such a thing. I hope that it would not.”
“I ask the Minister of State to answer the question. Can she provide an answer to the two questions I have asked? Are we fully compliant with regard to these particular amendments? That is all I am asking.”
“Well, of course. You are here ten years. Let us not get personal and ridiculous. I am in this House to scrutinise the legislation. You are the Minister of State putting this through. You are putting through 300 amendments to the Bill. You have told us already that you have spent four years on it. You have vast experience in this area. I am not doubting any of that, but they are your amendments and not mine. I have the right to scrutinise and ask you questions. I am asking you finally once more. Either you do not know, you are not capable of it or you do not want to share it with us.”
“Previous governments have bought into them. It is established practice. I am asking if the Minister of State will give me the assurances regarding this whole group of amendments that we are fully compliant. She either can or she cannot. The Minister of State is suggesting that she cannot do it now in the section allotted under our Standing Orders and by the secretariat, and agreed by whoever agrees them. She is saying she is not in a position to comment on the question I have asked her. She is saying she is happy to discuss it later, but I am asking her to discuss it now. I am asking her to comment on these ones now, not the broader bit. She can do what she likes, quite frankly, in terms of her scope of debate but she cannot do what she likes in terms of legislation. We accept, amend or reject. There is a vote.”
“That is the Minister of State's view. I am asking her to comment now. This is when we have them. We vote on amendments separately. I will not anticipate what she might say later on. She can say it all again five times if she wants to. I respect that. She is the Minister of State. I am putting it to her on the record of the House that she is either unwilling or unable, or does not know what the situation is. I have asked her two simple questions. I will ask them again so there is no ambiguity about the questioning and no doubt what I am asking. Ireland is signatory to two conventions. On the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, I referred to Article 7 but I will now refer to the entire convention. Ireland is also a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. We are signatories to these. We are obliged.”
“I have sought advice on it which I am happy to share with her. The Irish Government is a signatory and has signed up to these conventions. They are not for us to decide to pick or disregard because this is primary legislation we are doing here. I am somewhat surprised that the Minister of State is suggesting she will discuss it later. Of course she will discuss it later. I am asking her, in relation to this set of amendments, to give that assurance. She can either do it or she cannot do it. I will come back in after I listen to her response.”
“All I am asking for is absolute clarity in relation to this section. If we have to repeat the thing five times, so be it - we can repeat the thing five times. However, we have to take it incrementally. These are the amendments the Minister of State has put before us in this grouping. I just want absolute clarity on them. I do not want qualified support or a qualified endorsement. I want an absolute endorsement that this fifth group of amendments, the amendments we are currently discussing, are fully in compliance with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. We are signatories to both. This legislation cannot proceed if it is in conflict with these UN conventions. The Minister of State might suggest it can, but I put it respectfully to her that it cannot.”