Gregory Campbell
East Londonderry · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I begin my contribution by thanking all the staff in this Assembly and in previous Assemblies, whom I found to be extremely courteous, diligent and helpful at all times. <BR /> <BR />I spent yesterday morning in the Senate Chamber at an event for victims, and I sat beside one of our youngest councillors in Northern Ireland.”
“We took the right decisions when it would have been easier to take the wrong ones, and, for that, we make no apology. For our stance, our statements and our comments since then, we make no apology whatsoever — none. <BR /> <BR />Over the last five years, people yearned for delivery, which has begun under the guidance of the DUP.”
“The Minister referred to the £6·7 billion that would be required over 30 years. He, obviously, had an exceptionally difficult task when determining whether an increase would be due in Housing Executive rents.”
“If a large sporting arena is close to a residential development, it is paramount that the organisers of the events liaise closely with residents, if there is a formal residents' structure in the area, to make sure that access to and departure from an event are done promptly and in a manner that does not give rise to concerns among residen…”
“The 9.00 pm threshold, which has been alluded to several times, was the subject of some scrutiny by the Committee, particularly in respect of the games — quite a few games — at the Kingspan Stadium that commence around 7.00 pm or 7.30 pm and therefore run close to the 9.00 pm threshold.”
“I will start where the Chair left off and append my congratulations to Carl Frampton. It was certainly clear on Saturday night that the Ulster boys were making all the noise everywhere they went. We wish him every success for the future.”
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“I thank the Acting First Minister for her response, and I am glad to hear that the date of 2 October is just around the corner. When the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister is looking at the development of the site, will it ensure that it is compatible with the surrounding area, that it maximises the potential for economic growth and that some of the projects that are being projected for there reach the full potential of the entire north-west to bring hundreds, if not several thousands, of jobs to the area?”
“You have some neck on you, a 20-year absentee.”
“I presume that the Member was talking about the past when he talked about politicians being trusted to allocate properties. Now he is talking about the Housing Executive being trusted as an institution. He has not at any time during his contribution in the debate lamented or even referred to the notorious under-representation of Protestants amongst the workforce in the Housing Executive that has prevailed for over 30 years.”
“Given the further serious allegations that the Minister alluded to, can the Minister outline what options are open to the Department post the November timeline that he has indicated, looking forward to 2016?”
“Among the functions that the deputy First Minister mentioned was the uniting communities function. What contribution does the deputy First Minister believe that uniting the communities would deliver if he were to admit to all of the extent of activity that he engaged in when he was a Provisional IRA second-in-command in Londonderry?”
“I understand that you, Mr Speaker, are aware of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and how it has functioned. She has ensured that that has gelled together and brought many benefits to Northern Ireland as well as to the United Kingdom as a whole. For those and many other reasons, we join, across the nation state, in paying tribute to her glorious majesty Queen Elizabeth II, and we say in that glorious refrain: long may she continue to reign over us.”
“— Mr Speaker. Events in the Great Hall, as may soon become apparent, delayed my appearance. <BR /> <BR />I associate myself and my party with the comments that I trust were made by Mr Allister. In that respect and context, I think that I would have no difficulty whatsoever in agreeing with him. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II has conducted herself impeccably in her reign, which, on Wednesday, will mean that she is the longest-reigning monarch in our history. This society has been privileged to have such a personage as Her Majesty as Queen in this realm for such a period of time. <BR /> <BR />We have much to be grateful for in the way in which she has sustained the monarchy in good times and difficult times. She has presided over the Commonwealth.”
“If he were to do that, who would investigate the complaint against the commissioner?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. Mr Maginness appeared to be very close to implying that he was going to consider making a complaint about Mr Spratt's attack on the commissioner.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She will recall me saying in my speech about my giving what I believed was the correct context in which it was used, which was a political context. Can she explain why she did not dispute that explanation, just as Mr McCann did not explain why he did not dispute it?”
“The unwillingness of the Chair to deal with the issue has to be dealt with here today. Mr Wilson has a right under free speech to say what he said. Nobody should be surprised by it. I would say that he has nothing to apologise for.”
“Then, Mr Bain went off to talk about a physically violent person or criminal. In what realm would anyone in the Chamber or watching the debates take that sort of context out of what was said, particularly when a person sitting beside the Member who said it explains immediately afterwards what the context was and was not challenged? Nobody challenged it. They challenged it afterwards, when Mrs Kelly ran off as quickly as possible. I do not know why Mr Allister did not do it. He was probably tabling more questions about the price of mint imperials in the Chamber. That is probably what he was about. Of course, he has to get his priorities right.”
“Not only did I say what context it was used in, but Mr Bain acknowledged that that had been done in the Committee. The more important thing is this: when I did that in the Committee, of all those who are now rounding on Mr Wilson — those who were on the Committee, the Member who made the complaint, the Chairman and all the others — not one said, "No, Mr Campbell, you are wrong; that was not the context in which it was used". When I put the correct context in which Sammy Wilson made the comment, not one member of the Committee said, "No, that is wrong. It is incorrect. It was not used in that context".”
“On the issue of what constituted the "thug" remark, Mr Bain actually asked Mr Wilson:”
“I am glad I gave way, then, in that context. I think that not only is it odd but that a lot of Members here obviously do not do irony very well.”
“After Mr Wilson made the comment about which Mrs Kelly complained, I made this comment in the Committee:”
“When he got the same response, he asked him a fourth time, and when he got the same response he asked him a fifth time. If that is not badgering a witness, I do not know what is badgering a witness. Of course, the Chair did not draw Mr Allister's attention to that, but I did. The Chair did not, and it was the Chair's job to do so. <BR /> <BR />Then, of course, Mr Wilson made the comment that he made, which was the "thug" remark. There is a lot of talk about what constitutes robust political debate and what does not. What concerns me is that there have been a number of investigations by Mr Bain into other individuals' conduct in Committee. On some occasions, people who were in the Committee and either overheard or took part in the disputed words were asked to give some evidence to Mr Bain.”
“One would have thought that any person on the Social Development Committee, let alone a Queen's Counsel, would have known after being told a second time, "I am not answering any questions in relation to internal party positions", to not persist a third time. When he did persist a third time, I said that he had done so, and the Chair, of course — he did a perfectly inadequate job of chairing the Committee, because every time there was a row he lifted his papers and said, "The meeting's over; we're calling it" — then lifted the ball and left the pitch. That is what happened on more than one occasion. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister was reminded, as was the Chair, on the third time that he tried to get Mr Brimstone to answer a question that he had perfectly legitimately said that he would prefer not to, but he persisted in asking him a third time.”
“I will begin my comments with a word of condolence to Mr Bain, who, I understand, suffered the loss of an immediate family member only yesterday. Our sympathies are with him in that loss. <BR /> <BR />This issue has been around for some time now. The person who is alleged to be at the centre of it is, of course, Mr Wilson, because of the comments that he made at a Social Development Committee meeting that was investigating the infamous 'Spotlight' saga, which did not amount to a row of beans, despite a number of people attempting to make it so. There was a series of questions posed by Mr Allister repeatedly and ad nauseam to one witness in particular, but not exclusively, and that witness was Mr Brimstone.”
“I just wonder whether you, Mr Speaker, could investigate the accuracy of the reply and give advance notice to other Ministers to avoid such gatecrashing in the future.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. Some time ago, I tabled a question for written answer to the Minister of Agriculture and received a reply in the past few days. It was in relation to an invite that she had extended to an event at the proposed DARD headquarters at Ballykelly camp. I had asked her whether invites were sent out to local community associations and local representatives. She said that they were. I indicated to her in a subsequent question that it appeared that an unelected representative from another constituency, who was a Westminster candidate a few weeks after the event, was present at the event and, in fact, was photographed beside her and the deputy First Minister. Yet her reply says that no such person was invited either by the Department or by her.”
“Will the Minister liaise with her colleague the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development so that a more strategic approach is adopted not only to mountain biking but other leisure pursuits in forests and mountains right across Northern Ireland to ensure that a strategic promotional aspect can be taken forward across the whole of Northern Ireland?”
“The deputy First Minister referred to extensive discussions on cross-border smuggling and fuel laundering. Given that, over the past number of years, I and others have endeavoured to get the deputy First Minister to own up to having known people or to personal involvement that he would have had in terror-related activities in the distant past, is he now prepared to own up to knowing any former colleagues, whom he is bound to know of, who would be involved in fuel smuggling and laundering in border areas? His denials are quite implausible.”
“What was the amount of money that was paid?”
“Reducing offending and, indeed, reoffending can often be achieved by reviewing the severity of the sentences available to the judiciary. How regularly does the Minister do that?”
“Is the deputy First Minister aware that part of the reason for changes to the Human Rights Act being demanded is that, particularly in GB, there have been a number of instances where legal representations have been made on behalf of people who have been guilty of very serious criminal and terrorist acts and have used the Human Rights Act to try to mitigate their heinous actions? Does the deputy First Minister agree that that has been the case?”
“Will the Minister undertake to examine such issues as the one that was brought to my attention in my constituency, in which a private sector company, an expertise of which is training people for HGV courses, has found it extremely difficult to compete with other companies whose practices are not as in-depth and comprehensive as theirs? Some allegations were made about dealings that were not entirely in keeping with legislation that restricts companies like the legitimate company that came to me.”
“Hopefully, the Minister will not have a marathon session to cover today, as I understand he successfully concluded one the other day. He will be aware of the number of fuel laundering plants that have been uncovered, and there is an emerging perception that fuel launderers simply wait until the fuel has got into the ground and then report it to the authorities. In other words, they get a clean-up done at no cost to them and a cost to the taxpayer. What is he doing to ensure that is clamped down on and ceases to be the standard procedure for fuel launderers?”
“The Minister outlined a series of conversations that she had been having. While she has been having those conversations, farmers have seen prices go down. They have declined significantly in recent months. How long does she believe it will be before she starts to see those prices recovering, principally as a result of the labelling saga?”
“Is the Minister aware that the delay and possible derailing of the welfare reform project, which we are discussing today, puts at risk not just the thousands of jobs at Ballykelly but the other thousands of jobs at the Maze site and the tens of thousands of jobs, all in the private sector, that could be created through the corporation tax reduction?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that, in addition to the group of people he is talking about, there is a considerable number of vulnerable people who would have been better off under the welfare reform package that had been negotiated but who, now, will not be better off as a result of this?”
“We have got to get on, mitigate what we can, do our best for those in need and do our best to secure the best deal — and we have got the best deal in the United Kingdom — or else it gets an awful lot worse. I support the Bill.”
“Then, four months ago this weekend past, an anti-austerity party was not just on the rise, but became the Government of Greece. Then we heard, "You are going to see stuff happen now; you are going to see austerity confronted and smashed." What do we see four months later? The Greeks are at the IMF, saying, "Please, can you bail us out? Please, can you do something? We cannot meet your demands." So much for the mighty anti-austerity measures and the great anti-austerity party. I wonder where Sinn Féin, the great anti-austerity party of Groucho Marx rather than Karl Marx, will be? <BR /> <BR />The reality is that we are where we are. We have got to cut our cloth. People might not like it — I do not like it — but it does not change where we are.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I think he was underselling it a bit when he said that their grasp of the numbers is "not great". "Not great" does not come close. The reality is that we have a Conservative Government in place for, in all likelihood, five years. The subvention is £10 billion a year. People ask why we cannot go it alone. It is 50 billion of those over the next five years — 50 billion of those. That is why we cannot go it alone. <BR /> <BR />I have heard a lot about anti-austerity. I remember, and I am sure many here remember, that, four months ago, the talk across Europe, in Spain, Italy and various countries, was that anti-austerity parties were on the rise, which they were; that they were getting more votes, which they were, and that they were becoming more strident in their demands.”
“You cannot, because they are future claimants. You do not know what it will be, yet Sinn Féin wants to say that we have to get a budget and reforms that take account of the unknowable.”
“I notice that the deputy First Minister referred to the Member Mr Chris Hazzard, and I am glad that he did. Who will ever forget the car-crash radio interview before the election, when the Karl Marx economics of Sinn Féin was that, if you run up a credit card debt, we will write it off? These are the people who will say that we can get a better welfare reform package. Of course, they also said that they want to safeguard not only existing claimants but all future claimants. The current DLA claimant rate, in some parts of Northern Ireland, is three times greater than in the rest of the UK. If it becomes four times greater, do they want to safeguard it? If it becomes five times greater, do they want to safeguard it? Commentators ask, "How do you account for future claimants?". They answer is that you do not.”
“Or do we adopt the better way and try to mitigate the worst excesses of a welfare reform system that is, as everybody else in the UK admits, better than what they have? When I speak to the Scots Nats, Plaid Cymru, the Conservatives and Labour across the rest of the United Kingdom, they say, "I wish we had the system that you people have." When I say that we might not have it, they say, "That is your call." We are making it today. This call is being made today. <BR /> <BR />Over the course of the last month, we have heard from Sinn Féin a number of pie-in-the-sky economic issues. In fact, I was really glad that our former Finance Minister made the quote before I made it: it was not really Karl Marx economics, it was Groucho Marx economics.”
“When we come to that point — I know that there are some, particularly in Sinn Féin and the SDLP, who do not seem to be at that point yet, but everybody else seems to be — we then have to decide what we do. Do we sit tight and hope, Micawber-like, that something will turn up? When my head comes out of the sand, will somebody somewhere, with this magic money tree that everybody talks about and nobody knows where it is, deliver hundreds of millions of pounds to deliver what we would all like to see? It ain't going to happen. <BR /> <BR />What do we do then? If we all wish that it was better but know that it is not going to be, do we sit tight and then it will get worse? That is what is going to happen; it is going to get worse.”
“That is what we would want to see in a perfect world. What we have is not perfect. It is rather imperfect, and there is no additional money. Given that we were told by a Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition that there was no additional money, does anybody seriously think that the Conservatives, bereft of the Liberal Democrats and now governing on their own with a complete majority, will say, "Yes, we did say that with the Lib Dems in tow, but we have now had a think about it. We are going to give everybody else in the UK a £12 billion hit, but we will overlook that for you people in Northern Ireland and give you a bit more money."? It is not going to happen. It simply is not going to happen. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that we have to do whatever we are going to do within the confines of our Budget.”
“I join others in wishing Peter Robinson a speedy recovery. <BR /> <BR />Given the removal of OFMDFM Question Time, it seems somewhat strange, when we in an open-ended legislative debate that could go on for hours, for us to take a lunch break of two and a quarter hours; hopefully, the Business Committee will be able to meet. That seems absurd, but I am sure that the Whips are discussing it as we speak. <BR /> <BR />A number of issues about the Bill need to be brought to a head. When it comes to what most people in the House would like to see, welfare reform does not divide us. We would all like to see a belt-and-braces, super-duper welfare reform package. I presume that almost everyone in the Chamber, as well as outside, would want to see that in place. However, that is what we would like to see.”
“Given the ongoing changing nature of the EU and the possible change that may come over the next few years, has the Minister had any discussions with his counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom should the compulsory element be required?”
“I hope and pray that we all, as a wider community, offer the prospect of hope and help to all those afflicted by the potential of suicide.”
“I saw the excellent work that Foyle Search and Rescue did in coming to his aid and bringing him out, but I also saw the trauma felt by all of us who were doing whatever little we could do to help as we saw the drama unfold: someone trying to take their life. As they struggled in the water, there was nothing any of us could do because there was such a distance and height between us and the person in the river. Then the boat came to his rescue. Only when that happens to you do you begin to see the extent of the trauma that there would have been had that suicide attempt been successful. It has been replicated on hundreds of occasions. <BR /> <BR />I feel that this has been a worthwhile debate and hope that the Minister will respond positively.”
“They need to know that, whatever their problem, somebody will be there to help them — whatever it is, there will be someone there to help them. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude with this, as I do not want to delay the proceedings. I came across the issue at first hand, as many of us have. I was not as close to it as, for example, Mr Durkan; I know that he has personal experience. Many of us have had second-hand experience. I had direct experience about two years ago when, out for an evening stroll along the Peace Bridge in Londonderry, a young man, before my eyes, tried to take his life by going into the river.”
“They saw nothing that could have given them an early alert that something was wrong. They just did not see coming what hit them in the early hours of the morning or at whatever time they were told of the passing of their son. It seems to me that, as a society, we need to reflect on that and do whatever we can. <BR /> <BR />Hopefully, the Minister will refer to the suicide prevention strategy. We all need to understand that those facing suicide are in an exceptionally dark place and feel that there is no way out. We have heard discussions about what might be the root of the problem, but the main issue is that, whatever the problem, they feel that there is no solution. That is usually, but not always, why they end up taking their life.”
“I, too, pay tribute to my colleague Gary Middleton for his maiden speech. It is an exceptionally important but exceptionally difficult topic on which to make a maiden speech. <BR /> <BR />I wish to say a couple of things. Very often in the Chamber, we engage in very important topics that divide. The divide is sometimes subtle, sometimes very stark. This is a non-divisive issue that transcends communities and crosses all sorts of boundaries and communities. <BR /> <BR />Down through the years and in recent times, I have had to go to a family home after a young man or young woman — pre-eminently, it is young males — has taken his or her life. Inevitably, the conversation in the wake house, as we call it, turns, usually at the instigation of the family, to the fact that they saw nothing, detected nothing and saw no change in behaviour.”
“He is quoting me correctly about the leaking of the report. Has the Deputy Chairman of the Committee given any thought to whose interest it would have been in to leak this report in the week before the general election?”
“Further to that point of order, I thank Ms Sugden for confirming that Mr Allister did indeed approach the late David McClarty when he was very ill to take his seat on the Committee.”
“Not once did he raise those issues; not once did he raise the issues about sectarianism and how it affected the investigation. Of course, he went on in the Chamber to ask more questions about the price of mint imperials than he ever did about discrimination against Protestants.”
“It does not surprise me, Mr Speaker. I know what happened. I know about the conversation between the late Mr McClarty and Mr Allister, and I stand over what I said. <BR /> <BR />Let us move on to what actually happened after he replaced Mr McClarty on the Committee. A number of issues were raised, and, of course, the sectarian attacks on Red Sky property were raised by the DUP and not by Mr Allister. They were never raised by him. Many issues were raised during the investigation and the report, including a series of investigations and quotes from senior Housing Executive officials about the severe under-representation of the Protestant community in the staff of the Housing Executive. That was never mentioned by Mr Allister, who came onto the Committee belatedly in place of a dying man.”