Jonathan Craig
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Unfortunately, I speak as one who has a little understanding of what that family is going through. The same knock came to my family's door, and it is horrendous. I feel for that family, and my thoughts and prayers are with the family circle at this time. What that family is going through is almost unbearable and unthinkable.”
“I welcome what the Minster has said so far about the scheme at the Temple crossroads, which is an extremely dangerous crossroads. My father witnessed a fatal accident at that junction. Will the Minister outline the approximate cost of the scheme? More importantly, what additional features will it have?”
“Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I am almost tempted to call you Father Newton because, for the second time this month, I find myself confessing to not being in my seat. I apologise to you and the House.”
“I could show you glaring examples in my own constituency of where this should have been done but was not done, is not being done and is not going to be done until somebody somewhere points out that there is a need to do it.”
“I want to outline some of the rationale and reasons behind why we believe that that is fundamentally important to the Bill. <BR /> <BR />At this point, the Bill is all well and good.”
“Some obvious circumstances are staring schools in the face, and I have to say that there is huge resistance from some sectors to facing up to the challenges that they face. There are even challenges within sectors for shared facilities.”
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“Minister, my question to you is this: can you assure the House that you will give the Chief Constable all the resources necessary to try to thwart those who, unfortunately, want to drag us back to the past?”
“Unfortunately, I speak as one who has a little understanding of what that family is going through. The same knock came to my family's door, and it is horrendous. I feel for that family, and my thoughts and prayers are with the family circle at this time. What that family is going through is almost unbearable and unthinkable. <BR /> <BR />It is a reminder to all of us in the House that we signed up for a peaceful alternative for Northern Ireland and that we need to redouble our efforts to secure that peaceful future. We need to support those in our police force who, unfortunately, have to deal with this daily. It is concerning to hear that six other attempts were thwarted before, unfortunately, these evil people succeeded in this case.”
“Let us not beat about the bush: he was murdered by terrorists in Northern Ireland. We hoped that that had been buried in the past, in the history of not only Northern Ireland but Ireland as a whole.”
“It is with deep sadness that I rise to speak on one of the last things to be discussed in the House: the death of Adrian Ismay.”
“I welcome what the Minster has said so far about the scheme at the Temple crossroads, which is an extremely dangerous crossroads. My father witnessed a fatal accident at that junction. Will the Minister outline the approximate cost of the scheme? More importantly, what additional features will it have?”
“Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I am almost tempted to call you Father Newton because, for the second time this month, I find myself confessing to not being in my seat. I apologise to you and the House. Unfortunately, I was in a meeting with Lord Morrow, which overran, and I did not get back in time, so I apologise to you and the House, and I hope that you can absolve me of my sin.”
“Pupils do not necessarily benefit from that and the one big loser in all of this is the taxpayer who forks out millions every year for duplicated resources, some of which sit literally next door to each other.”
“No, but what I will say is that the taxpayer is the one who always suffers in these circumstances. Speaking as a taxpayer, I do not find that acceptable. That is why I believe that we should agree amendment No 8 and amend the Bill so that we can promote, encourage and facilitate — where it is possible and where there is a willingness to do so — all educational sectors to consider this and how they could share resources, facilities, teachers and whatever, so as to deliver the best education for the pupils in their area. I think that we need to focus on how we can improve educational achievement for these specific areas instead of sitting back and watching sectors fight it out with each other, because inevitably that is what we witness.”
“I will just leave the Member guessing, because it is something that he probably does know about.”
“I saw a prime example of this in my own constituency; one sector deliberately tried to grow, and grow, and grow to the detriment of other sectors. It is not introducing anything new to the education system, it is not bringing in new pupils; all it is doing is diminishing other existing sectors. If a shared arrangement had been agreed at the start, we would not be in that mess. <BR /> <BR />It is the public purse that is hit every time whenever there is a failure to look at the shared educational opportunities that are out there. Millions are being spent on all of those projects, all paid for by the taxpayer.”
“I could show you glaring examples in my own constituency of where this should have been done but was not done, is not being done and is not going to be done until somebody somewhere points out that there is a need to do it. I think of sporting facilities in my constituency; there are three schools within a mile of each other, all of them bursting to the seams with 3G/4G pitches that are beautiful, but none of these schools can fully utilise those facilities. There are no sharing arrangements and there probably never will be until somebody puts a bit of pressure on them and encourages them to share those facilities. That is why we feel this is important. <BR /> <BR />It is also important from the point of view that there are still sectors out there who, quite honestly, want to dominate and overthrow all other sectors.”
“We believe that a form of duty and some level of pressure has to be put on the Education Authority to look at the measures to see what can be done and, more importantly, to promote and encourage all schools, whether they are old, new or merging, to look at what can be done through the shared education system. It is not unreasonable in my mind to ask the Education Authority to do that. It does not mean that in every case they will force any school into a shared system, because that is not what it is about. However, I think it is important that on every occasion the question should be asked, "Can this be done better if you share your facility with others?".”
“Some obvious circumstances are staring schools in the face, and I have to say that there is huge resistance from some sectors to facing up to the challenges that they face. There are even challenges within sectors for shared facilities. Again, even though they are staring everybody in the face, they are obvious and some people have encouraged them to take up those opportunities, there is still very little take-up of the shared opportunities that exist. Those opportunities would deliver facilities for communities that otherwise are going to be left with no education facilities if they do not face up to what are shared facilities within their own sectors, never mind with other sectors. <BR /> <BR />Minister, that is the rationale behind why we support amendment No 8.”
“Has there been any real facilitation of that from what were the old education boards, now the Education Authority? The sad truth is that there has been very little support for it whatsoever. Can that deliver huge financial savings for the education system? The simple answer is yes. I could go round the houses for the next hour and quote examples of shared facilities from within my constituency that have saved the education system literally millions in pounds and pence every year. It is measurable. <BR /> <BR />First and foremost, we need to place a duty on the Education Authority to encourage and promote such shared arrangements right across the education sectors. Some of it will come naturally.”
“I want to outline some of the rationale and reasons behind why we believe that that is fundamentally important to the Bill. <BR /> <BR />At this point, the Bill is all well and good. It defines shared education and shows what it is, but all Bills are powerless if there is no duty on the authority that has the responsibility for carrying out the legislation to promote and encourage that legislation. That is what has been lacking so far within our education system. Several approaches have been taken to shared education, all of which have come from the ground up. They have come from schools that are facing difficulties and that have come to unique conclusions about how to share facilities, teachers, sporting facilities and, quite frankly, exams. The schools have been the drivers behind that.”
“From a party point of view, I do not want to repeat what my colleague Mr Peter Weir has outlined and what we are and are not supporting, but I want to speak to amendment No 8, which deals with a duty that we are trying to place on the Department of Education to:”
“I support the Bill and several of the amendments — I obviously support those that the Committee has put forward. From a party point of view, we have supported the concept of shared education. The one thing that we cannot afford to do is to continue with the existing education set-up in Northern Ireland. Five sectors competing against each other and, quite frankly, leading to some ludicrous decisions and a huge waste of taxpayers' money cannot continue.”
“Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I apologise to you and to the House for not being in my place earlier. Obviously, I need to improve my time management skills.”
“While it is welcome to see that teachers from Northern Ireland can now apply for jobs in the Republic of Ireland and that they are allowed up to three years to get the Irish language qualification, can the Minister explain whether there is any subsidising of the course that leads to that qualification and whether those working towards it are entitled to any time out? There is a bit of an issue around that.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome the Bill, the steps forward for all schools and the level of consistency that it will introduce across all of them. However, we need to be careful, because it will not resolve bullying in our schools. Bullying is an age-old problem, and it is one that will not go away because we have introduced legislation. Hopefully, the Bill will lead to a more effective and consistent approach to bullying across all of our schools, and I commend it to the House.”
“When I look at that, I think to myself, "That's just common sense. All schools should do that". However, if we look at our schools across the Province, we find that that is not universal practice, so that is to be welcomed. Those are the good things about the Bill, and I welcome them. <BR /> <BR />The other issue is one that teachers have raised with me: the fictitious or false accusations made not only against teachers but, unfortunately, against other pupils, usually to hide some wrong or indiscretion by another pupil in the school. This happens in the real world, and it happens a lot more frequently than any of us would like. I ask that, in the Bill, we find a balance that allows teachers and governors some form of mediation to enable them to make a judgement on what is correct and what is fictitious.”
“In secondary schools, there are usually heads of department or a head of pastoral care who will deal very effectively with the policies in the school. <BR /> <BR />Sadly, I have to admit that there are schools that do not have effective anti-bullying policies. In my elected role, I have, unfortunately, dealt with some that do not have an effective policy, and I hope and pray that they do now after the advice that I gave them. I am fortunate: I sit on the boards of governors of two schools that have very effective anti-bullying policies, and I praise them for it. I welcome the fact that there is an imperative on all schools to produce an anti-bullying policy and to follow it. I also welcome the fact that there is a duty under clause 3 to keep records of such incidents in the school.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have looked carefully at the responsibilities for boards of governors, and I welcome the fact that there is now legislation that will put an imperative on governors to take responsibility for anti-bullying policies. I would like the Minister to clarify that in his closing remarks because I take it that it is policy. I do not want governors having to take responsibility for the implementation of the policy in a school; we need to make that very clear. Governors are not in schools on a daily basis, and they are not there to see the minutiae of what goes on in schools. In primary schools, principals or vice principals are predominantly responsible for dealing with bullying issues on a daily basis.”
“I have no intention of tabling any amendments, but, thinking back to my experiences in schools, I have seen instances of pupils bullying teachers to a very serious extent. To my recollection, I am not at all certain that it was dealt with effectively. I note that, for some reason, all the definitions of bullying in clause 1 are between pupils; it is almost as if it is excluding any other form of bullying, should it be between pupil and teacher or even vice versa. I ask the Minister to think about that because it is an issue that needs to be dealt with. I would welcome some thought on that being included in the definition.”
“That has always caused a huge conundrum, not only for governors but for teachers in schools. Many a time, it ends up being dealt with by the police. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that there is a word definition of electronic bullying in the Bill, but I ask the Minister to check with his officials that it is a catch-all definition. If we try to define every electronic device or every piece of software, ultimately someone will get away with bullying because it was done through something that was not mentioned in the Bill. The catch-all definition is much better and is more effective. <BR /> <BR />I noticed something else interesting about the definition of bullying in the Bill, and I ask the Minister to think long and hard about it.”
“We need catch-all statements, and, looking at what is in the Bill, we see that the term "electronic communication" is a catch-all. That will be welcomed by a lot of schools, because, until now, technology has been well and truly ahead of what any legislation has stated anywhere. Schools, I know for a fact, have struggled with the issue. The difficulty with electronic communications is that they occur not only within schools, from pupil to pupil, but out of schools, into and around schools and, unfortunately, between pupils out of school.”
“On behalf of my party, I welcome this Bill on anti-bullying. It is fascinating to hear how many people have fed into the consultation on the Bill. That in itself, as the Minister said, highlights how big an issue this is in schools. I will declare an interest: I am on the board of governors of both Killowen Primary School and Laurelhill Community College. I suppose the irony is that I have just received a text message about bullying issues in one of those schools. <BR /> <BR />What I wish to say concerns the definition itself. Some Members, whom I listened to carefully, are worried about how accurately you define electronic bullying. It was put to me that it is important not to be overly wordy in your definition of bullying.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. Could she briefly outline the benefits of the new system to those clubs?”
“At the end of the day, we are looking for a child-centred approach that will deliver on the education of a child. If that means forcing Departments to work together, I am content to do so in order to get some form of achievement. <BR /> <BR />My colleague is right: this is a bit of a historic day. Nine years later, we are finally getting another Bill through the House. I remember his speech on the setting up of the Education Authority. As a member of the Committee, I welcome the fact that the Bill is at this stage. I know that there are other stages to go, but I welcome and approve of the fact that we are now at this stage.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that, in clause 5, we are trying to reduce the number of assessment days from 29 to 22. Personally, I think that it will be a huge challenge for the Education Authority, and it may not be totally under the authority's control, Minister. I have numerous cases in which it is not the Education Authority, as it now is, that delays the process. When looking for medical records or information, it takes time for the bureaucratic Health Department to get the information back to the authority. That will definitely be a challenge. <BR /> <BR />That takes us back to the need for a joined-up approach between Health and Education in the assessment process. Hopefully, that is what will be at the root of this: a more streamlined, joined-up approach between the two Departments.”
“Every member of the Committee, including me, had to admit that, when cases came in, the one thing missing from them all was joined-up thinking between Departments. There is no way of escaping that. I do not say that with any joy, whether Education or Health is responsible, but the truth is that we have all had bad experiences of the two not connecting properly and information not being shared. Amendment Nos 5, 6 and 7 are an effort to try to force some joined-up thinking between the two Departments. In answer to my colleague's concerns, as a party, we will support amendment Nos 5 and 7. However, because of concerns that the Minister has raised with us about RQIA having the responsibility, we will not support amendment No 6.”
“We need to consider the unintended practical output of what may occur if there is no other mechanism of handing over that personal learning plan to the new school. It could have a detrimental impact on the education of the child concerned. When you get down to the nitty-gritty, a lot of these issues are very personal to the parents and pupils involved, and there is not always consensus. I appeal to the Minister to take another look at that to see whether, in circumstances in which there is disagreement, some mechanism can be found to assist the new school in obtaining that information. <BR /> <BR />I understand why some people will think that, in clause 4, we are trying to reinvent the wheel. Other legislation was welcomed by the Committee and in the House, but there is a deep and underlying concern.”
“That is a huge step forward for special educational needs. The concept is to speed up an incredibly bureaucratic system. Everyone in the House will welcome attempts to speed up that process. <BR /> <BR />While I have no issue in principle with amendment No 4, which seeks consent from pupils and parents to pass personal learning plans from one school to another, especially if a child transfers midterm, we will face a difficulty in that parental or even pupil permission may be required. I appeal to the Minister to think about that because my bitter experience as an elected Member is that, when it comes to pupils changing schools midterm, there is normally little or no agreement between schools. That is an unfortunate reality. In a lot of cases, getting consensus on passing a pupil's personal learning plan over to the new school is doubtful.”
“I cannot claim to have as long a memory on the Bill and special educational needs as my colleague in Lagan Valley Mr Lunn. I do recall, however, as a Committee member, that one of the first things that we discussed was the first special educational needs Bill. I think that my colleague Mervyn Storey organised a meeting of concerned groups and parties in the Great Hall. That was an interesting meeting. Unfortunately for the then Minister, the consensus was that the original Bill was not up to much. That seemed to be the prevailing thought of most of the bodies and concerned parents. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that we have reached a stage at which we have a Bill that has been scrutinised by the Committee, and many of its recommendations have been accepted by the Minister and are being implemented through amendments.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. It is good to see that Londonderry is getting £30 million. With regard to small boxing clubs — there are a couple of them in my constituency — ongoing running costs are always an issue. Would the Minister support proposals, hopefully coming forward from the Finance Minister, to make them rates-free? The running costs of a lot of the clubs are where the problems lie for them.”
“Given the point raised by the Chair of the Education Committee, is the Minister inclined to introduce what would be the equivalent of grade 9 — an A**? I think of the poor parents who will have to struggle with the complexity of the numbers, letters and all the rest of it, so has any thought been given to what would almost be a dummy's guide to it, Minister? Not all children here go on to university in the Province; in fact, a lot of them go on to apprenticeships and equivalent jobs across the United Kingdom. It is important that there is an understanding of that.”
“I thought we had come close to achieving something that would bring that about in the HIU and the whole Stormont agreement at Christmas. Unfortunately, that has been delayed. I live in hope as a victim, and I hope that others live in hope as victims, that we will find a way forward in treating and dealing with the past in this Province, but I do not believe for one second that taking any one issue from the past in Northern Ireland and dealing with it separately and uniquely moves that situation forward. We need a comprehensive way of looking at the past. That is hopefully what we are going to get with the HIU. I think where that family needs to look with hope is towards the HIU and how we can move all those situations forward, but not take them as one. Northern Ireland is full of victims, many of whom sit on these Benches.”
“We have a historic situation in Northern Ireland that, unfortunately for all of us, all the victims who sit around the Chamber, we will see no satisfaction from. We need a comprehensive way forward on the whole issue of historical inquiries.”
“Is one person any more satisfied now than they were when that event occurred? I doubt it. I think that we are all reinforced in our opinions, no matter what they are, of what happened in that event and, unfortunately, I do not think that it will bring truth in this case. <BR /> <BR />We have all seen the demise of the Historical Enquiries Team (HET), and I can understand the families' frustration about that. Looking at the whole Coroners' Court situation in Northern Ireland and at what is happening in the ombudsman's office, I do not think that anyone in the Chamber believes that any of that will bring satisfaction to the families. It is grinding to a halt under its own pressures.”
“My family suffered from that in the bombing of Newry police station, when eight police officers were bombed to pieces and there was nothing left. No one was ever brought to book. No investigation ever uncovered what happened there. The truth is out there, and there are those on the opposite Benches here today who, I suspect, know something of the truth of that situation but refuse to bring it forward. There is hypocrisy on all sides about these things. <BR /> <BR />Will we get satisfaction for the families? I have severe doubts. Will yet another inquiry bring any closure for them? I have my doubts, because I have looked at what happened with the Bloody Sunday inquiry, where millions upon millions of pounds of taxpayers' money was spent that could have been used elsewhere.”
“Ballymurphy in 1971 was one in a long list of events in Northern Ireland that created a long list of victims, victims of a war of terrorism that was waged in the Province. It was one horrific event in a long list of horrific events in the history of Northern Ireland. It was, unfortunately, neither unique nor the worst to take place in the Province. <BR /> <BR />I have listened with interest, and I have absolutely no doubt that the victims and the families who are left want to hear the truth of what actually occurred in that unique piece of our history. It is something that I certainly have sympathy with and understanding of. This was not the only event to take place where no one has been brought to account and where we had major breaches of article 2 — the right to life — in the Province.”
“We are right to highlight our concerns about Maghaberry, Minister. The Chief Constable confirmed only last week that there are five live cases of intimidation of prison officers in the prison and that several cases of intimidation of private contractors have reached the PPS. It has been pointed out to you that there has been serious intimidation of the staff and those who work in the prison. As the Minister, what have you done to stop that intimidation, other than appease those carrying it out?”
“Sorry, but my time is up. <BR /> <BR />The issue is around how we measure the achievement levels of children going from primary to post-primary.”
“There is an issue that has not gone away, Minister.”
“However, the reality is that the only people who would get to those extremely good schools in our society are the economically well-off. The deprived children whom we are talking about, many of whom have passed the academic tests and got into those schools, would no longer have access to them. I have never heard that issue addressed anywhere, and no one has tackled it. We talk about Every School a Good School, and that is a good principle, a good start and a way forward. However, we will still see the postcode lottery, with only the well-heeled getting into what are grammar schools today. <BR /> <BR />Are there other fundamental issues with the transfer process? Yes, I believe that there are, and they have nothing to do with the selection process. How do secondary schools in general find out what the achievement levels of children are?”
“I thank the Member for his comments, and I will come to address them. That hits on a fundamental issue with the whole selection process. There are parents out there who think that the only means of getting their children into the best school is to put them through the test. Some other parents make the choice not to put their children through that system and to send them to other extremely good schools, and I have no difficulty with that. <BR /> <BR />Let us take a look at the alternative, which nobody seems to want to talk about. What is proposed there? It is called the postcode lottery. People living near some of the grammar schools would, I think, be delighted with the postcode lottery, because, automatically, the value of their property would double, treble or whatever.”
“Has the unregulated system gradually been going away, as others said? Are people running away from it? Well, I have bad news for all of you: the numbers taking the unregulated tests have not gone down, and they are not going down. Parental choice is a wonderful thing. As others said, it is parents who make the choice to send their children to the best schools for their educational achievement. If children are academically inclined, that is the right road to send them down.”
“I have to be fundamentally honest with the House that my experience is that the unregulated system is a thousand times better than the regulated system was. I make no apology for saying that, because I have experienced both, and I know which is the much better experience for the pupil. <BR /> <BR />Am I content with the unregulated system that we have? I am not content that there are two unregulated systems out there. I have always appealed to those involved in the debate to come up with a single unregulated system. Is it wrong to have an unregulated system? No, I do not believe that it is. I am not one who thinks that government must do everything. I think that a remarkable job has been done in a very stressful situation, and I make no apology for saying that. Is it a disaster? No, it has not turned out to be a disaster.”
“Like others, I find the motion a little confusing. I did not describe it as a mishmash, baffling, bewildering or a dog's dinner, but I find aspects of it extremely confusing. It was good to hear the proposer admit to the fact that it was the DUP that salvaged the transfer principle, and, through the years, whether others believe us to be on the wrong side of history or not is not something that has ever bothered us. It was often said that our founding father was always on the wrong side of history. That never held him back, and I am sure that it will not hold us back either. <BR /> <BR />Would it be nice to have a regulated testing system? Yes, it probably would. I say that with some scepticism because I am one of those who went through the regulated system, and my daughter went through what is now described as the unregulated system.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer, but I have to say that it is not the first time that Mr Nesbitt has got his sums wrong, as we witnessed in Fermanagh in the selection process. Will the Minister outline the accurate figure over the same time period?”