Daithí McKay
North Antrim · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Will the First Minister give us a more detailed update on the civic advisory panel? Would she also agree that, as we face what is, undoubtedly, a political and economic abyss, it is more important than ever that we hear from civic voices in society as well as political leadership?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I recognise much of the work that is ongoing. Given the recent reported and alleged race crime in the Minister's constituency involving several members of the police, will she give us an assurance that a proper and fully independent investigation will be carried out?”
“<BR /> <BR />In recent years, it has become harder and harder to secure your vote. In that context, it does not make sense that support to secure the vote is withdrawn from those on the ground when they need it more than ever. I am sure that most people picked up anecdotes when canvassing in the recent election.”
“We should move forward with confidence and take on more powers to ensure that we protect local services and workers. <BR /> <BR />Look at the list of offices to be impacted: Ballymena, Banbridge, Omagh, Derry, Newtownabbey and Newtownards. If all those were to close, it would leave a huge gap in rural constituencies.”
“I thank the proposers of the motion for bringing it to the House. I am moving the amendment on behalf of Sinn Féin. <BR /> <BR />I think that all 108 Members received a letter from NIPSA concerning the action that has been taken. The letter also highlights the lack of accountability regarding local politicians.”
“I did so along with other MLAs from all the parties locally, so we are unanimously opposed to the decision there. But, we are all 108 locally elected politicians who are powerless to do anything about this. That is why we should see these small — I have to say they are small — but significant functions being transferred to Belfast.”
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“At its meeting on 4 February, departmental officials briefed the Committee and answered questions on the Bill, including on issues relating to a range of Departments. In addition to that evidence, the Committee has scrutinised each of the monitoring rounds during the current financial year, both for overall outcome across Departments and for the position for the Department of Finance and Personnel. In view of that evidence-gathering exercise throughout the year, the Committee was content to grant accelerated passage to the Bill. I therefore wrote to you, Mr Speaker, to inform you of the Committee's decision.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I apologise for missing the start of the Minister's contribution. Things are running quite swiftly this afternoon. <BR /> <BR />As we heard, the Budget Bill provides statutory authority for expenditure as set out in the spring Supplementary Estimates 2014-15. The Bill also includes the Vote on Account, which allows Departments to incur expenditure and use resources in the early part of 2015-16 until the Main Estimates are voted on by the Assembly in June. <BR /> <BR />Standing Order 42(2) states that accelerated passage may be granted for a Budget Bill provided the Committee for Finance and Personnel is satisfied that it has been appropriately consulted on the public expenditure proposals in the Bill.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I speak as a supporter of solar energy; however, there is a remarkable lack of regulation for these applications. There are applications in the system for Rasharkin, and there is a forthcoming application for Kells as well. Can the Minister give an assurance that they will not be considered under PPS 18 alone, and will the views of the residents in those areas be fed into the publications that you will put out in the next six weeks?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Does she agree that Invest NI could do a lot better for North Antrim, especially in comparison with constituencies around Belfast? Will she also agree that, to arrest the decline, North Antrim and, indeed, Ballymena should be prioritised, given the jobs that have gone at the Patton Group and the jobs that will go at Gallaher. Does she agree that North Antrim needs to be a priority area for investment?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. He referred to the globalisation fund. What is his assessment of the likelihood that we will qualify for the globalisation fund and that those funds will go to the workers?”
“— that any decisions he makes will have to be based on protecting front-line services, like those at Dalriada, and that they will also need to be rural proofed in the year ahead.”
“Finally, a lot of money has gone to Health over the past year for front-line support. That will continue with the £200 million uplift in 2015-16, but I hope that the Health Minister will learn —”
“There is a lot of concern out there at the moment. I recently met a number of organisations in my own constituency to talk about how the ESF payments and the ESF process have been dealt with. There is a sense that community-based groups have been cut out of this process. There have been questionable changes made to the criteria for level 1 and level 2 qualifications. It is important that, over the next financial year, the Minister for Employment and Learning looks after not only his own Department but those in the community and voluntary sector who, in a lot of instances, deliver better outcomes and better results on the community line.”
“It is important that we ensure that we get a good deal and a complete deal on corporation tax and that the Treasury does not pull a fly one with the Executive. A lot of these situations arise for a very simple reason: the fact that we do not have adequate detail on revenues and taxes. The Department of Finance and Personnel is often left in the position where the Treasury can wilfully pull the wool over its eyes whether it likes it or not. This is not an ideal position and does not represent good governance as far as the people we represent are concerned. It will lead to situations where we are not getting an appropriate and fair deal when it comes to any dealings with the Treasury. <BR /> <BR />In the DEL budget contained in the document before us today, there is reference to the European Social Fund (ESF).”
“We looked at Scotland, because the Smith Commission has rightly secured an assurance that any secondary tax impacts arising from fiscal powers used by the Scottish Government will make their way back to Edinburgh and to the Scottish Government. The Minister and the Executive need to seek an assurance that we do not get only the sting in the tail of corporation tax in terms of the cost, the £300 million projections, that have been put out there. If this is going to result in significant revenues going to the Treasury in London, those should be taken off the cost of corporation tax. <BR /> <BR />We do not know what is going to happen in Westminster over the next few months. However, there is every possibility that Scotland and the SNP, which wants to see corporation tax powers in Edinburgh, will get a better deal on corporation tax.”
“It is no surprise that the Member has brought this proposal forward. <BR /> <BR />I turn now to corporation tax. The Committee recently received evidence from Dr Graham Gudgin from the Centre for Economic Policy. He made a very interesting point, and one that we certainly agree with, that, in the calculations around corporation tax, there is a clear deficit. Most people expect that if, when the Assembly receives corporation tax powers, there were a decision to reduce the rate, then the secondary tax impacts of that — for instance, an increase in income tax revenues, an increase in VAT, and a reduction in welfare payments — should result in a benefit to the Department of Finance here in Belfast.”
“I will now speak from my party's position. I turn first to Mr Allister's amendment. The amendment is juvenile and petty. The Member for North Antrim does not like a decision that the Equality Commission has made, so he wants us to just take its money away. This is a Budget debate. It is a serious debate for the House. We should not be led into any diversionary debates that, as the Speaker has already said, belong elsewhere. You cannot have your cake and eat it. Have your 10 minutes and have your little argument, but, as far as we are concerned, this proposal is going nowhere. It is part of a homophobic front, to use the Member's terminology, because the whole argument that has arisen from the proposed legislation is about not only targeting the LGBT community and undermining the Equality Commission but opening a Pandora's box on equality.”
“<BR /> <BR />I turn now to the motion relating to the Vote on Account for 2015-16. That is a practical measure that provides interim resources at approximately 45% of the 2014-15 provision. That enables Departments, as the Minister said, to ensure that public services continue during the early part of the financial year until the Main Estimates for 2015-16 and the associated Budget Bill are debated by the Assembly before the summer.”
“Given the scope for significant savings in this area in 2015-16 and beyond, I expect the Committee will wish to closely monitor progress in this area. <BR /> <BR />Arising from last week's evidence from the Department of Finance and Personnel, the Committee agreed that in its future scrutiny it would be beneficial if, in advance of the Committee receiving an oral briefing and of the related Supply resolution debates, the Department provided the more-detailed information explaining the changes in departmental positions from the opening position to the Estimates. That would ensure that the Finance Committee and other Statutory Committees had a more detailed understanding of the changes ahead of debates. I look forward to the Department's response in that regard.”
“<BR /> <BR />As regards its own expenditure, the Department of Finance and Personnel reported easements totalling £1·6 million in resource. In allocations, the Department received £5·8 million resource and £29·4 million capital, primarily in relation to the asset management strategy. <BR /> <BR />In the Committee's previous debate on its report into flexible working, a key issue in relation to office accommodation savings was that we do not yet have firm figures from the Department for the potential savings or even a plan setting out when and how those savings will be achieved. The Committee discovered that only 20% of Civil Service office space met workspace utilisation targets and traditional office space was typically occupied for only 45% of the time.”
“<BR /> <BR />That reconciliation exercise highlighted the scale of the movement of moneys across Departments during the year. From a quick calculation, the total resource allocations amounted to £239 million, while total capital allocations amounted to almost £227 million. That was against total easements of almost £78 million in resource and £331 million in capital. In some instances, the figures were substantial, in particular for Health, Social Development and Regional Development. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Finance and Personnel undertook an active role in scrutinising the quarterly monitoring rounds at a strategic and departmental level throughout the 2014-15 financial year and received timely briefings on the Department's position prior to each monitoring round.”
“Additionally, the Department explained to the Committee that headroom was built into the spring Supplementary Estimates to give the Executive ability to spend any last-minute underspends on priority areas to ensure that no resources are lost to the Treasury under the Budget exchange scheme. That relates to the Department for Social Development and Department for Regional Development in particular. <BR /> <BR />During the evidence session, the Committee received helpful clarification from officials on a number of significant allocations, easements and technical adjustments that occurred during the in-year monitoring round process. The officials ran through the detail of those when explaining the reconciliation of the spring Supplementary Estimates with the Main Estimates of Departments, which were approved in the Assembly last summer.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Senior DFP officials briefed the Committee for Finance and Personnel in relation to the spring Supplementary Estimates (SSE) and Vote on Account, and the Committee approved accelerated passage for the Budget Bill, which will be introduced by the Minister later today. That decision was on the basis that there had been appropriate consultation with the Committee as provided for by Standing Order 42(2), and I wrote to the Speaker to provide confirmation of that. <BR /> <BR />As was pointed out, the SSE reflect the changes that were made to the opening Budget position for 2014-15 as a result of the monitoring rounds in June, October and January.”
“I urge the Justice Minister to listen to what the families, the victims of drugs and the communities where I come from in north Antrim are saying. This is a relatively small amount of money, and it makes a big difference to their lives.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is something wrong somewhere when so few questions are asked about the cost of incarceration in prison. Railway Street has consistently demonstrated that, given access to good-quality treatment, crime will fall and health outcomes will improve. Indeed, there are obvious benefits to the public purse. The cuts to Railway Street can in no way be made without there being severe consequences for patients, their families, criminal justice agencies and other Health and Social Care professionals. All will struggle to cope with the void that will be created. <BR /> <BR />However, I welcome the fact that some small amounts of funding have been extended to the end of this financial year, but the service clearly needs to be protected beyond 31 March.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Over 2,200 people have put their name to this petition to prevent the cut to the service at Railway Street in Ballymena. The cut from the Department of Justice is not a 5% cut, a 10% cut or a 20% cut; it is a 100% cut in DOJ funding to the service, which prevents crime, drug addiction and, indeed, human misery. It is a non-judgemental service that can respond to members of the public who walk in off the street. That will not be sustainable after the cuts take effect. <BR /> <BR />The decision to withdraw funding, with no consultation with service users, was a cruel act. To offer hope, to bed in the service over 14 years and then to walk away is disgraceful. This is about the removal of a life-saving service to people who are often seen as the undeserving recipients of health care.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Does the deputy First Minister agree that it is important to make progress swiftly on the Stormont House Agreement to help retain the public's confidence in the Assembly and the institutions and to send out a positive message domestically and internationally?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I welcome the fact that the VES business case will be signed off by the Executive and the assurances that you have given. We are happy to support an unamended motion. The Minister made a point about sensitivity on the scheme. Does he agree that not only should the Executive and the main parties be sensitive about the issue but all parties should, because it is not a compulsory scheme? It is a voluntary scheme. Whatever number of workers want to sign up for it, it is up to them. Political parties should not deliberately put out any misinterpretation of that to make political points.”
“That was raised by my party colleague Oliver McMullan, and I would be interested to hear the Minister's view on that.”
“We could get it if we had a more collective call from the parties here for the transfer of that power. Scotland is moving ahead; we need to do the same. Also, interestingly, full control of the Crown Estate is due to be transferred to Scotland. That is something that we need to see here.”
“We want to see a 15% reduction in ministerial salaries and an end to remuneration for Chairs of Committees. It is important that the Assembly sends a message out to the public. People are suffering and having to deal with the rising cost of living and, until recently, the rising cost of oil. There is also the rising cost of food and so on. They expect that we should take some of the pain as well. That is something that perhaps the Executive should return to. My party would certainly have no problem supporting such a proposal and ensuring that the public see that the politicians are taking as much pain as the public. <BR /> <BR />I would be interested in the Minister's position on the Smith commission and developments in Scotland. Scotland looks likely to get the transfer of powers for air passenger duty. We need to see that here.”
“Yesterday, they were attacking the rural community of Dungiven, and today they are attacking the entire rural community of the north-west and rural public servants in general. We support the transfer of public service jobs to rural communities and to rural areas such as Ballykelly. There are 800 places available, and 1,600 people want to go there, so there is more than enough demand for that. It is a shame that the Ulster Unionists are using this Budget debate to try to deprive the north-west once again. <BR /> <BR />We have made it clear that there were opportunities to make more savings in the Budget. In recent talks, we have raised proposals that concern ourselves as Members of the Assembly. We need to take a cut as well. Sinn Féin wants to see Assembly Members take a 15% cut in wages. We want to see the same cut for special advisers.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to make a few comments from a party perspective. There are a number of amendments to the motion, and we will support John McCallister's amendment. Sinn Féin has concerns about the voluntary exit scheme, which needs to be thought through and prepared properly. Mr McCallister's amendment refers to ensuring that there is improved efficiency. Generating reductions in administrative costs is something that we return to again and again in our Committee work, so we will support Mr McCallister's amendment on the basis that there is concern about the scheme and it needs to be handled carefully in the weeks and months ahead. <BR /> <BR />We will not support the Ulster Unionist amendment.”
“Again, I would welcome the Minister’s view on this proposal, particularly in terms of assuring ourselves of available options, in the event that they are needed, to meet the challenges that lie ahead and to deliver the services that the public rightly expect. <BR /> <BR />In the coming weeks, the Committee will consider the Department's response to the Committee’s report. Other areas that the Committee will be keen to see progressed include the memorandum of understanding between the Assembly and the Executive to improve future Budget processes. Also, as part of its ongoing scrutiny of public sector reform, the Committee will wish to closely monitor the work of DFP in overseeing the implementation of workforce restructuring, particularly how this will be managed in a way that safeguards the delivery of key public services.”
“This raises the question of whether the provisions for assessing the financial performance of the Health Department will have the desired effect. <BR /> <BR />A further recommendation from the Committee’s report that I would reiterate is the need for DFP and the wider Executive to provide complete information on all the options across Departments for raising additional revenue through charges and further devolved taxes and duties. This should include projected costs, benefits and risks and impacts to enable a fully informed and mature public debate on how best to help meet the further budgetary challenges in coming years.”
“Perhaps the Minister could provide more detail on these measures today and an assurance of their effectiveness. I request this particularly in light of the key finding in the Committee’s report that, following devolution, DFP’s role has changed from:”
“<BR /> <BR />While seeking assurance regarding any risk of underspend in the FTC diverted to the investment fund for 2015-16, the Committee also queried the basis for the significant reduced requirement from DETI in this regard between the draft Budget and final Budget, which amounted to some £27·5 million. A further point explored with departmental officials was the reference in the Minister’s statement detailing DFP’s plans to assess the financial performance of the Health Department. The Committee asked how the outcome of DFP’s in-year monitoring work in this regard would be reported. Also, clarification was sought of:”
“In examining the changes and allocations in the final Budget, the Committee questioned officials on the detail of a range of issues including, for example, the provision to mitigate the worst impacts of Westminster's welfare proposals, the funding for bodies to deal with the past, the financial performance of the Health Department, to which the Finance Minister has drawn attention in the past, assurances in relation to financial transactions capital (FTC) and the applications to the change fund. It was noted that the change fund was oversubscribed by five times its value, and members have sought further information on the successful and unsuccessful applications.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. It was clear from the Committee’s recent take-note debate that this Budget process has been far from ideal both in the time and the information available for consultation on and scrutiny of Departments' spending plans. A number of factors caused a rather exceptional set of circumstances and a truncated process. I hope that we can now look to improving future budgetary processes, which is a point that I will return to in closing. <BR /> <BR />First, I wish to pick up on some of the developments between the draft Budget and final Budget and reiterate some of the key recommendations from the Committee’s coordinated report. Following the Minister’s statement on the final Budget on 19 January, the Committee was briefed by officials at its meeting last Wednesday.”
“I support the motion, a LeasCheann Comhairle.”
“Whilst the Budget is not perfect, which everybody knows, given that we do not have the money that we should, the fact is that Health, Education and universities have received an uplift that most parties should find a lot of difficulty disagreeing with. In terms of budgetary decisions —”
“Budgets for the NIFRS and education are very resource-intensive and take up a lot of staff. In health, we need to look at what are not front-line services, such as administration and the level of management in some of the trusts. Senior managers, who make a lot of the decisions, will not look to themselves. That is a quandary that the Minister needs to deal with. We cannot continue to have overbureaucratic Departments and overbureaucratic trusts while front-line services continue to suffer. <BR /> <BR />As far as the Budget is concerned, it is welcome that we have received another £80 million for education. I met principals in my constituency about that last week.”
“Of course, the Fire Service has lost not a day to industrial action in the last 10 years. So, in finalising the health budget for 2015-16, the Minister needs to be careful to ensure that the front-line provision that is the Fire Service is not undermined or cut into double figures, upsetting what is a very good record in relations between the Department and the Fire Service.”
“<BR /> <BR />Also, I think that we should discuss and debate where the Fire Service sits. We are reducing the number of Departments in the Executive. Is the Department of Health the best place for the Fire Service? That is something we need to discuss, because the Fire Service, wherever it is located, needs to have appropriate funding.”
“<BR /> <BR />This question has to be asked about the motion: what are core public services? One good example is the Fire Service. I often refer to it as the forgotten service, because often, as the Fire Service is within the Department of Health, it is left to the last in being allocated appropriate resources and funding. The fact of the matter is that 83% of the Fire Service budget goes towards firefighters and resource. If there is a cut, as has been mooted, it will affect response times. It will also affect the non-traditional jobs that firefighters do in dealing with issues like flooding and car accidents. Departments are very quick to come up — in particular, the Department of Health — with where to make cuts, they never think through what the consequences are. Indeed, they assess the consequences after they have made the decision.”
“<BR /> <BR />As regards the comments about the begging bowl, we got £500 million extra capital for education, for example, in the recent Stormont House Agreement. You do not look a gift horse in the mouth. If there is extra money there, we need to take it and put it towards front-line services. Other Members are correct about some of these so-called opposition parties: where are their alternatives? Where are the proposals that they brought forward at the negotiations? We want to hear them in detail because we have not heard them in detail to date. What we have here before us, potentially, is the greatest cut in public spending since the 1930s. If the Tories continue for another four years, we will return to a Great Depression in public spending. That is the challenge to public services that lies before us.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the motion, and I note some rank hypocrisy from some sides of the Chamber. The Ulster Unionist Member for South Antrim complained about the begging bowl and the lack of finances: was it not he and his party colleagues who tied their boat to the Tories at the last Westminster election? Was it not he who stood on a manifesto that is actually delivering the austerity that we see today? He can talk about the public, and the public will analyse all of what we are doing up here, but the public will always remember that the Ulster Unionists did their utmost to get the Tories in power in the first place. You do not hear many members of the Ulster Unionist Party referring to that any more.”
“— and, indeed, organisations in the community and voluntary sector in Portglenone, which I represent. Can the Minister estimate how many projects could close and how many jobs could be lost in the community and voluntary sector through his approach? Is it more about shuttling money out of the community and voluntary sector and into his Department than anything else?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The problem with that approach, Minister, is that a lot of community and voluntary servers find themselves locked out by the way the criteria have been set, and you will be well aware of the concerns outlined by NICVA —”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the statement. It is clearly good news for our schools, our universities and health. I also welcome the fact that this place is taking a cut, because the public feel that we and the Assembly should feel some pain in the Budget for the year ahead. <BR /> <BR />Minister, the Minister for Regional Development has often alleged that you are threatening to knock his lights out, so I welcome the £2 million that will go towards street lighting. Do you agree that it is not sustainable for opposition Ministers to want to have their cake and eat it every time that they mismanage their budget? Do you also agree that it is not MLAs who need training courses, and that perhaps it is some of the Ministers who act like cuckoos within the Executive who need some training?”
“I welcome some of the discussion that he has elaborated on in the transfer of powers. However, does the Minister agree that, in continuing the conversation about transferring more fiscal powers, we should look at establishing a proper baseline of information and statistics? He referred to the level of debt here. I feel that for too many years we have been too reliant on the Treasury and on others to put those figures forward. Should we take a leaf out of the Scottish book and try to ensure that we are 100% sure of the figures ourselves, rather than just swallowing whatever the Treasury says?”
“If that is to be the case, we need to have a serious debate about taking those powers for ourselves and looking at what is happening in Scotland and saying, "Well, you have a choice: you can decide things for yourselves, or you can let the Tories visit upon us rack and ruin in the public service, the health service, in education and so on and so forth." <BR /> <BR />I welcome the debate and look forward to the contributions from other Members, but we are still in very difficult economic times, and, to find an economic solution to our economic problems, we need to have economic levers.”
“We need to have a debate about fiscal powers in their entirety and how we can change the rates and have those powers transferred. Quite clearly, given the outcome in economic growth and job creation, if it is broke, we need to fix it. As long as the levers of financial power remain with Westminster, things will not change. We need a full debate about the powers that we want to be transferred. <BR /> <BR />My party's position is that we want all powers to be transferred, but other parties need to be more open and less ideological about that. I give credit where credit is due: some parties have moved more in that direction. However, the urgency is there now. The Tories, if they get in at Westminster, will lambaste us with another four years of austerity and send us back to the 1930s.”
“If senior civil servants in some Departments embraced the report, it could radically change the way in which people work and would, according to the report recommendations, lead to greater productivity, lower sickness levels and allow for more public finances to go towards front-line services. Given that we are possibly heading into another four years of austerity, we absolutely need to look at each and every opportunity to realise savings and to put money towards front-line services, the Fire Service, the health service and education. There are gaps, and we need to fill them. <BR /> <BR />More so than ever, other parties need to be open to having the great debate about fiscal powers. At the moment, we have a piecemeal approach. We have looked at corporation tax and air passenger duty (APD).”
“The Department of Education is the most important Department for economic growth, because it represents the future. If we do not invest in our future, how can we be expected to improve on it? <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Finance and Personnel carried out an inquiry into flexible working. I believe that it has a huge potential to realise savings and to change people's lives. I am thinking about people who commute from Ballycastle, Derry and Enniskillen into Belfast five or six days a week. Departments need to embrace the Committee report, rather than just saying that they will note it and then stick it on a shelf with other reports.”