Danny Kinahan
South Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I support the draft Energy Order. I recognise that, today, it is really about putting in place an end date so that we can plan. It is great to hear that the Minister has put in a grace period and has been talking to the providers. I think that most of us have been lobbied at times by the various companies in the industry.”
“When I joined the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee not that long ago, one of the key briefings that I had was with the Northern Ireland manufacturers' association. One of the three main items that they wanted to raise with me is the cost of energy.”
“My original question was to ask the Minister whether he felt that the current transition process was fit for purpose and delivered to the same standard. He seems to have massive changes coming in, which is excellent.”
“Absolutely. Will the Minister guarantee that the flight routes being considered are planned to fit the respective airports and that we will keep in mind all the time that we need to try to make sure that our airports are competing with Dublin and that there is no bias involved, even in respect of our two local ones?”
“We still have ongoing insurance problems. We should keep that in mind when we look at the petition and the plan. <BR /> <BR />The present plan is to develop 400 houses beside the river, with a 10-metre buffer — that is all — with no recognition of the needs of the wildlife, including the otters, the dippers, the dollaghan and many others.…”
“<BR /> <BR />The valley and the river are just on the outskirts of Antrim, and a wonderful council-planned mill race trail runs along the riverbanks and is incredibly popular with locals as an area of natural beauty, for angling, for countryside walks and for nature. It really should be protected and preserved.”
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“I look forward to seeing where they are and understanding them in detail before we, as a party, give the support that we need. <BR /> <BR />I would also like to raise the same concerns as my colleague Robin Swann brought in about making sure that we can extend it past 19, and I take on board those who have suggested that we should look further, up to 25. Although it is not necessarily this Minister's role, it is always concerning when you meet so many parents who are now the sole carer for their child once they have left school. <BR /> <BR />We need to find a new way forward. The Bill has so much going for it. I have highlighted the areas that I am concerned about, and I look forward to seeing it in Committee.”
“The principals whom we spoke to during the inquiry — in fact, during most of the things that we have dealt with on the Committee — have shown more and more being loaded on the teachers. When we went to one school, it showed us that there were 36 consultations, surveys and other forms that it had to return. We were told recently that there are now over 70. We need to think about how much we load on to our teachers. John McGrath said that they will always cope: we have fantastic teachers, and, yes, they will always cope, but at some point we are pushing everyone towards breaking point. <BR /> <BR />There is much more in the Bill that we should discuss. That will all be clarified as we go through it in Committee, but I am concerned, like others, about the other regulations and guidelines that will come in on the back of the Bill.”
“Just as today, principals keep governors right on teachers and pupils, and the person on the board of governors who is skilled in finance also advises, but where will we go when we do not have the support, the Curriculum Advisory and Support Service (CASS) or the resources? We are relying on the governors making the decisions without necessarily having been given all of the right support. <BR /> <BR />Another area is the concern about training and the continual capacity of the teachers themselves. I met some principals last week who told me that morale was at an all-time low. The General Teaching Council for Northern Ireland (GTCNI) has asked whether teachers have adequate time and resources to take on the new roles on special needs. Last year, the vice principals showed in a survey of their own staff that they were overworked.”
“<BR /> <BR />Under the Bill, we expect the governors of a school to inform all those involved about a pupil's special needs. We expect them to maintain a learning plan for every pupil with special needs, to ensure that a teacher is designated as a learning support coordinator and to ensure that everyone is aware of the arrangements for dispute avoidance and resolution. We are putting a great deal on governors' shoulders. I am sure that most of them are able for it, but we need to think about it. <BR /> <BR />When you think about it, the trained learning support coordinators will need to keep the governors right, but will they?”
“<BR /> <BR />I am also concerned about the burden being placed on governors. I remember going to a governors' meeting in Hillsborough two years ago, when we were discussing the ESA Bill, and they were incensed by the extra work that we were expecting of them. Many governors give many hours and evenings of their life as they battle with budgets, teacher appointments and redundancies and with inspections and their aftermath, yet here we are loading even more on them. I have been a governor and was appalled to find myself legally bound to decide a principal's future without ever being shown the evidence. I hope that no governor is ever put in that position again. In the Bill, we must be careful about placing a legal duty on people who do not have control of every aspect of information or the skills needed to make their decisions.”
“It seems right that parents, children and, where suitable, independent advisers should be able to challenge decisions within these mechanisms, but has anyone really thought through the practicalities of legislating or assessed the financial cost or the cost in time and hours put in by teachers, parents and governors? We need to question those matters as we go through the Bill. <BR /> <BR />If a child is to have more say, does that have to be given a legal basis? I am told by those who practise at the moment that children's wishes are already part of the process and that it works extremely well. By giving it a legal basis, I am concerned that we are, as ever, giving more work to lawyers and putting in place an expensive delaying system that will mean that children will not get the fast service that we should give them.”
“The main concerns were about a dilution of the protections and resources. We are now seeing the detail of the changes that will come about. I hope that it will not just be the Committee that sounds out everyone on where the changes will be. We should look at consulting in some way. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to the bureaucratic procedures, I welcome the wish to have a more transparent system but ask whether the introduction of appeals and mediations without time limits or timescales is the best and most cost-effective way to do things.”
“I am sure that every MLA in the Chamber has had to raise special needs issues with their library boards or the Department because parents were not happy with the initial provision, with the school or with the board and what it offered, with the speed of statementing or even with the final provision that is decided on. We must remember that each child has only that one shot at education, and they deserve the most accurate, efficient and correct process possible to ensure that they receive the excellent education that I hinted at. We have to find something that has no delays and is quick, well informed and, most importantly, well resourced. I hope that the Bill will help to get us there. <BR /> <BR />The consultation was in 2009, some five years ago. At that time, the Education Committee referred to:”
“I feel that there should be more consultation with the public, the parents and the children as the Bill proceeds. There is a general feeling amongst those who practise the teaching of special needs that the Bill is a cover for reducing the spend on special needs. I know that the Minister has said that it is not, but that is something that we are going to have to deal with, as it is very much out there. If you extrapolate the graph that we were given in our excellent brief, you will find that it was intriguing to see that we could be looking at 25% of our pupils having special needs by 2020. So, yes, it is right that we streamline and look at better systems, and I think that it is probably right that we look at how we spend our money better.”
“It intrigues me that the Bill places a duty on the Education Authority to request help from the Department of Health and Social Services if it believes that the health and social care bodies could help in the exercise of the Education Authority's functions. That is useless if such a duty is not reciprocated by the Health Department. I was intrigued to hear that there has obviously been some discussion between others and the Minister. It seems that the Department will do that, but I would like to hear that from it. <BR /> <BR />I realise that this is just the Second Reading and that we should be dealing with the Bill's general principles, but I would like to explore some matters in more detail. We, as a party, are happy for the Bill to proceed, but we look forward to hearing about that detail.”
“It seems to be over-bureaucratic in places. It sets up costly and time-consuming procedures. At times, it seems to place an unsuitable burden on governors and possibly an even more burdensome role on some of the teachers when they are already appallingly overburdened. I do not want to be negative all the way through, but those are some of my major concerns. I am also concerned that we are relying that much more on the Department and the Education Authority when all the cuts are coming into place. We may well be losing many of those with experience. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is part of the solution. I think that we have a great deal of work to do to make sure that it works and puts in place the basis for a really good, thorough solution in the future. Others already touched on this, but we need a good cross-departmental approach.”
“I welcome the Bill. I have been on the Committee for two and a half years, and it is good to see legislation on special needs coming in front of us. <BR /> <BR />I also welcome the Bill's intention to include increased transparency and reduced bureaucracy and to focus on early intervention. I welcome the latter especially, as all the studies that we see seem to indicate that, the sooner a child's special needs are identified, the sooner we can deal with matters and help them with their education. As members of the Education Committee, we must remember that the key is to ensure that they get the excellent education that all of us deserve. We must also remember that, in what we are trying to do, various things, especially their welfare, must be looked after. <BR /> <BR />I have concerns about the Bill.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. The original voluntary exit scheme was announced as being open to all grades, except permanent secretaries. Why was it then skewed towards the lower ranks by an enhancement offer? Was that to make sure that we did not lose all the experience and skills?”
“I will be very brief. I am very lucky to have followed Lord Molyneaux in South Antrim, where he was known as a phenomenally hard worker. Others mentioned how much of a gentleman he was, as well as his great integrity, and how he really cared for Northern Ireland, especially Crumlin, and all his constituents. Like others who canvassed with him, I know how difficult it was to keep up with him. Everybody knew him and spoke to him. I echo what others have said. We all owe him a great sense of gratitude.”
“Does the Minister not find that the repeated complaints that renewable energy, in particular wind energy, are driving up prices a little rich and somewhat hypocritical, given that the person who asked the question changed the planning policy and liberalised it so that we could expand and bring in wind farm schemes?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Is he aware of any concerns raised by course participants, who are reporting concern at the amount of expenses paid out?”
“We have a terrific history, and we should be working on that. <BR /> <BR />Patsy McGlone highlighted the statistics and the issues raised by the ETI and the World Around Us. He said that we could do more with WAU and that we are doing things. I think that the main point raised today is that we must not rest on our laurels, and Basil McCrea said that we must do much more. I think he said that there are 1·2 billion people in the IT world in the whole world. We need to see Northern Ireland becoming a leading technological industry in the future. That is what we all should be aiming for. We must not rest on our laurels. Other good points were made, but we could get buried in them all.”
“When you watch the Generation Innovation video and see all the great technologies that we have in Northern Ireland, you realise that things are bright, but, as I said, we must not rest on our laurels. <BR /> <BR />Trevor Lunn made many more points. He said that there is a lack of confidence in primary schools, especially in science, and that there is a great deal of work to be done. <BR /> <BR />Nelson McCausland said that we should make teaching STEM one of our top priorities, and he, too, showed us the great Ulster-Scots links to so many of the mathematicians, scientists and those with technical brilliance from Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Robin Newton talked about the framework and mentioned Harry Ferguson and the Wright brothers. I worked at Shorts a few years ago. The first vertical take-off aircraft was developed there.”
“Sandra Overend said that we need to focus on careers, that it is a no-brainer and that business demands more STEM, hence the comments that I made in my speech. <BR /> <BR />Chris Hazzard said that it is not all bad. I accept that there are many very good things going on, but we must not just sit back on our laurels. He said that there are great examples and that we are not in crisis, yet Basil McCrea pointed out in his speech that we are in crisis. We need to look much closer at what we are doing. We need to look at enquiring into what is going on and to look for the inspiration. Terrific names have been mentioned today, such as Hans Sloane, Francis Hutcheson and William Thomson. There is a whole mass there. However, there are many whom we just do not see, and they are the people of the future.”
“Mr Rogers also said that we need to do much more practical work, and there were many other very good points in his contribution. He said that technology is a great leveller but that we should be spreading it out so that everyone can do it. It certainly failed with me at school.”
“If you go for one subject being compulsory, you lose on others, but the world is changing so fast and furious that you have to take more of a risk and lean towards it. If we have a different Minister in the future and another review, we will all have to make the same points again, but it is important that we look at leaning more towards STEM subjects. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to one or two comments from those who have spoken. Seán Rogers said that we must encourage inquisitiveness and problem solving. That is the same as Lord Ballyedmond said to me once when he discovered that I was in politics: we must have students who can think outside the box and solve problems for themselves.”
“When asked about the use of the change fund for science, he told me that he had been turned down by DFP and that there was no more money for Sentinus. At the same time, there is a huge lack of morale in the education system. We need to find a way of lifting the whole education system, so I go back to my point that we need a complete review of how we do everything. The budget cuts that are coming through emphasise the point that we should rethink how we do everything, dropping the sacred cows and trying to find a way forward. We need to see STEM much more in all parts of our education system; we need to see all teachers with some grounding in it; we need to see it at every level; we need to see it at further education; and we need to carry it through in society. <BR /> <BR />I understand the balance that the Minister mentioned.”
“We do not seem to really grasp the subject to make sure that STEM is available to all our children at every level. We need a completely new approach. We need to look at a zero tolerance on literacy and numeracy being carried on to every child having the chance to do STEM at every level. It is then up to them whether they choose to go into science or into something else. We should not tolerate anything less. That is the drive that we should be putting on the back of today's debate and not sitting thinking that we are doing particularly well. <BR /> <BR />I know that the Minister is struggling with a budget, but I hope that he can find some way of keeping the £100,000 for Sentinus. I am disturbed by the answer that he gave me last week.”
“We have rightly highlighted the gap between skills and industry and business and the jobs needed. Current estimates suggest that, by 2020, about 1·3 million scientists, engineers and technicians will be needed in the UK. We are also told that 80% of future jobs will include IT or technology. In a speech that I gave a few years back, I remember quoting the fact that China produces 75,000 engineers every year. It is probably more by now. The point is that we are not doing as well as we all seem to be putting across today, and I feel that we should re-look at how we are doing and put much more effort into it. <BR /> <BR />When we look at what we provide and all the summaries from the inspection and from Sentinus, we get vague figures.”
“Even if pupils do not go on to study science, that kind of learning, which promotes what is called scientific method — gathering evidence and analysing results — is a good grounding for children in many areas of study. <BR /> <BR />The Committee also recognises the value of teacher innovation. It is that element of the study of STEM in schools that has led to more pupils studying computer coding and taking up the associated A level. The Committee, therefore, supports ETI’s call for more guidance materials from CCEA and greater facilitation by the Department of support by external STEM stakeholders for schools. <BR /> <BR />I would like to make one or two comments of my own. My colleague Mrs Overend said that the STEM programme was not ambitious enough; I think that that is probably one of the greatest understatements.”
“There appear to be a number of key elements to that. The first is initial teacher education. Clearly, the promotion of science and technology, including, perhaps, some change to the student teacher curriculum, will enhance primary teacher confidence in the delivery of science. <BR /> <BR />The second important element is continuing professional development (CPD) in STEM for teachers. I think that the Committee will agree with the Department that the best way to promote the uptake of STEM subjects — any subjects — in schools is through good teaching. The best way to promote good teaching is by good initial teacher education and CPD. <BR /> <BR />Another key element of promoting STEM in schools is good planned opportunities for problem solving, investigation and inquiry-based learning.”
“I welcome today's debate, and, on behalf of the Committee, I thank all the Members who spoke and the Minister for contributing to what proved to be an interesting and, I think, kindly debate. I also thank the many lobby groups that have contacted the Committee and informed our scrutiny, including Sentinus, Momentum, W5, the Royal Society of Chemistry, the Association for Science Education, BT and the Northern Ireland Science Park, with which the Committee organised the STEM is Cool event in January 2014. I hope that they will all go on keeping the pressure on us. <BR /> <BR />The Chairperson mentioned the crucial importance of STEM to our economy, the good work already under way in our schools and the need for a full implementation of the STEM aspects of the curriculum to bring about high-quality learning for all our children.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far, and it is good to hear that there are so few. Has the Minister thought about or even discussed with officials the idea that has been suggested in the UK of extending the school years to include 17- and 18-year-olds or adding some flexibility into the system?”
“I wonder if the deputy First Minister shares my concerns at the fact that clear-up rates for crimes against older people are only 9% when, in fact, they are 17% for other groups, meaning that they really have less protection.”
“I find this fascinating. It will be great to see the Department of the Economy coming on board, which I think was Lord Empey's idea many years ago. <BR /> <BR />Will the Executive move on from being a two-party system or, using the implementation groups, will it move to involving all parties in the consensus that we are working towards, particularly in how we link with the Government at Westminster to deal with the reserved matters that affect us? We do not seem to have any suitable links for pulling things together.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I raise the issue not so much to ask about the Irish Football Association but because there seems to be a trend towards having 3G and 4G pitches everywhere, with the danger being that we will no longer have any grass facilities for, among others, those who want to play football or rugby on them. Will she use all her influence and, indeed, resources to make sure that we keep enough grass pitches so that we can still compete at the highest level and give people in towns and villages a chance to learn on that surface?”
“We have heard media reports about a potential top-up compensation scheme for landowners affected by vesting. With Randalstown and Toome both being in my patch, will the Minister provide an update on these plans and on whether we are going to bring Northern Ireland into line with GB?”
“<BR /> <BR />Think of what industry and technology are demanding from schools. There are changes coming in the next five or 10 years, so there will always be demand for more and different uses, which comes back to the better use of rooms and the creation of extra space. <BR /> <BR />I am really here just to support the motion and am glad to have been here to do so. However, the logic is that we ask for flexibility as we build for the future.”
“One way suggested to me was looking at council birth registrations, which gives two or three years' leeway before nursery school and a couple more before primary school so that we could check what we were doing and set some things in place. <BR /> <BR />It seems logical always to build for expansion rather than just for what we have today, and it is certainly logical to build for the children already there. Other changes, such as shared education, are coming to the education system. Surely there are uses for any extra rooms not being used now to help sharing with other schools, whether that is a room for music, woodwork, metalwork or whatever the new terminologies are. There are so many other ways of using a room. We should always build schools with a little extra space.”
“<BR /> <BR />When we were discussing area planning, I remember looking at the numbers and seeing that, in almost every area, the numbers for 2025, which is in 10 years' time, will return to what they are today. So surely it is worth building classrooms that we will use not just today but in the future. When I asked what the variation was on the figures, having once had to do statistics with standard deviation, I was told that it was within 10% each year — 10% over 15 years is an enormous variation. <BR /> <BR />As was touched on, there is always a lot of change, and maybe we need to find a more accurate way to look at the figures.”
“So it is not a new issue. What we are all asking for, really, is flexibility and for people to look ahead to how the numbers might change and prepare for that. <BR /> <BR />Going back to the big debates on area planning, I think that we need some strategic linkage between what is happening everywhere in Northern Ireland and what is happening in each patch, and how one has knock-on effects on the other. I know that, after Drumragh, the Minister said that there would be a slight change in order to look at the effect on other schools. So I go back to the point that we need the whole jigsaw, the whole picture, and everything has to fit into it.”
“I am pleased to support the Adjournment topic not just as an Ulster Unionist but as a member of the Education Committee. I am really here to listen. However, this is not a new issue; I am intrigued to hear Mrs Hale and others talk about various schools because I have had similar issues. Kilbride Central Primary School is looking for a change in use at the moment and is already using its classroom as a dining room. When Templepatrick Primary School was being built, it ended up using a storeroom as a classroom because it was not allowed to expand. We also had a situation at St Colman's Primary School.”
“I think that it is because we do not yet have a tourism strategy on the ground that works for all of the smaller tourism events. I look at the wonderful Antrim Castle Gardens or at what we could do with Lough Neagh, and I think of the fishermen, anglers, shooters and all the other people who come here. We need a budgeted tourism strategy that feeds all the way down to the people on the ground. We must not have only big events and rely on the trickle-down effect. We have this great little country, so let us make sure that it works, and let us make sure that everything that we do in this Budget helps not just our schools but our whole economy.”
“Also of concern in tourism is that we do not get our fair share from what is happening with the Irish. That is not because we do not get our fair share from the moneys that go to the tourism body but because the Irish do a whole mass of other things — they bring in lower air passenger duty and look at proper railway access to their airport — that have a knock-on effect on our tourism, and we always pay the penalty. <BR /> <BR />Our tourist figures today show no great increase in the numbers of people staying in Northern Ireland or coming from Great Britain. Yet we have the terrific success of the Titanic centre, and we have had golf and many other things happening, so why are we not getting many more people coming here?”
“<BR /> <BR />We wait for corporation tax to come in. I would love to know whether all the companies to which we have given big sums of money to come here in the last few years knew that corporation tax was coming, or whether there may be more flexibility in the future with corporation tax. If those companies have been given a nice chunk of money to come here, and suddenly they are being given a second whammy with corporation tax, have we budgeted for that, and will less money be given to them?”
“<BR /> <BR />I am also concerned that, if we are to go ahead with redundancies — voluntary redundancies first — we will lose all the highly skilled and most experienced people in one go. If they are like me and have learned from mistakes in their careers, they learn a great deal. If we lose all those experienced people, we will go through the same mistakes again and again. <BR /> <BR />I move on to the economy and DETI. I tried to find out whether we could look at the figures being spent on Invest NI and other matters in more detail, but we lost the argument in Committee. Most people said that we need to spend more because of being legally contracted, and it is what brings jobs in. However, you should not give up. We should still look at all the figures all the time to make sure that moneys are being spent properly and efficiently.”
“We need to get so much right in our schools, so I ask the Minister to push hard to get proper budget details down to the schools. <BR /> <BR />We all know that there is £500 million to help with shared education, but that is only capital. A shared education Bill is coming, yet we are cutting all the other areas that will allow us to promote the sharing of education. Are we really thinking things through properly? At the same time, area planning continues. We are reviewing transport policies and coming up with many more initiatives. We must have a long-term strategy. Will the Minister use his influence, through budgets and other things, to get a joined-up education plan for the future so that people know what is happening?”
“The following figures are for 2012-13: England £8,529 per head; Wales £9,709 per head; Scotland £10,512 per head; and Northern Ireland £10,876 per head. That is a huge figure and is 24% above the UK average. Where does all that money go? Where is the Treasury getting its figures from? Schools are certainly not seeing it. I hope that, with the new Education Authority, less money will be siphoned off to bureaucracy and more will go to pupils and better education. <BR /> <BR />One school rang me last week, wondering where its classroom assistant was. They did not know whether to appoint somebody or not. Another school has to change one of its classrooms into a dining room every day, and, even though that is done very swiftly, the school loses teaching time.”
“Are those 500 jobs to do with the jobs that will be cut back in the Civil Service, or are they 500 jobs that they are still concerned about in schools? We must have clarity. It is unfair on everybody to let this run on and on. There is a complete lack of certainty, and there is no transparency or consistency in how we do things. Schools do not know what is happening in the next few years. They have to work on three-year budgets, yet no one else seems to look more than six months to a year ahead. We need to start to deliver more accurate information to schools. <BR /> <BR />It is interesting that the Treasury tells us that Northern Ireland, per head of population, receives more for education than any other region in the UK.”
“Anyway, I must not be too grumbly and should not speak ill. It was good to see that money coming through, but we have not seen any more money since then. There has been one press release, which confirmed that £18 million was going to the aggregate schools budget on 19 January, £2·5 million was going into preschool education, and £2 million was going into education and library board youth schemes. That is all that we have heard. All the schools and everyone in education are still sitting there wondering what is going on. Surely, Minister, there has to be a better way to do this to make sure that people are told what is happening. <BR /> <BR />The Irish National Teachers' Organisation said last week that 500 jobs could still be lost under the revised budget, so we are still sitting there.”
“<BR /> <BR />I wonder, when we went through all this before Christmas, before that £150 million came, where was it actually found. Was it really part of the Stormont House Agreement, or was it sitting there? Why did we not give those in health and education some idea of priority — that health and education were the priorities — so that, after Christmas, they had some hope?”
“I very much welcome the £150 million that we moved to the Departments of Health and Education, especially the large sum that went to Education. I congratulate the whole of the education establishment for its strong lobbying, as it battled with its appalling Christmas present. It was told just before Christmas that £78·7 million was going to be taken out of the aggregate schools budget, along with numerous other cuts in early years, earmarked funds, some major capital, some minor capital, and — what really matters to must schools — the maintenance budget, which, I think, was being cut by £13 million. That is what they had to live with through Christmas. Still, today, they have to live with uncertainty, so I hope that the Minister will push his colleagues to try to ensure that that uncertainty stops.”
“I am pleased to be able to speak on the Budget. I am going to speak on education and enterprise, as those are the two fields that I am spokesman for. It is sad though. We really feel that, so often, we do not follow the consensus that was set up in the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement, and so many of the comments that have been made today about the Budget are because one Minister is doing his own thing compared to another. It is sad that we did not make all the cuts when we should have made them four years ago. We should not be going through the agony that we are going through at the moment; it should have been slow pain over four years instead of all in one go. <BR /> <BR />I will start with education.”
“Will the Minister advise on what actions have been taken as a result of the access to finance report that was produced by the independent economic advisory group last year?”
“If the First Minister looks at the three Programme for Government milestones and outputs regarding the commitment for corporation tax, he will see that the 2012-13 milestone/output of needing a Government decision through participation in a joint ministerial working group did not happen; the 2013-14 milestone/output to ensure that the required Westminster and Assembly legislation was in place did not happen; and the 2014-15 milestone/output on the need for an Executive announcement on the rate did not happen. So, in fact, we have had nothing but fail, fail, fail. We need corporation tax powers. Will things change? Will we see a better and more dynamic approach?”