Danny Kinahan
South Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I support the draft Energy Order. I recognise that, today, it is really about putting in place an end date so that we can plan. It is great to hear that the Minister has put in a grace period and has been talking to the providers. I think that most of us have been lobbied at times by the various companies in the industry.”
“When I joined the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee not that long ago, one of the key briefings that I had was with the Northern Ireland manufacturers' association. One of the three main items that they wanted to raise with me is the cost of energy.”
“My original question was to ask the Minister whether he felt that the current transition process was fit for purpose and delivered to the same standard. He seems to have massive changes coming in, which is excellent.”
“Absolutely. Will the Minister guarantee that the flight routes being considered are planned to fit the respective airports and that we will keep in mind all the time that we need to try to make sure that our airports are competing with Dublin and that there is no bias involved, even in respect of our two local ones?”
“We still have ongoing insurance problems. We should keep that in mind when we look at the petition and the plan. <BR /> <BR />The present plan is to develop 400 houses beside the river, with a 10-metre buffer — that is all — with no recognition of the needs of the wildlife, including the otters, the dippers, the dollaghan and many others.…”
“<BR /> <BR />The valley and the river are just on the outskirts of Antrim, and a wonderful council-planned mill race trail runs along the riverbanks and is incredibly popular with locals as an area of natural beauty, for angling, for countryside walks and for nature. It really should be protected and preserved.”
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“I welcome the statutory rule. We as a party support it. It is good to see us encouraging switching to new technology. It is also good to see new clear frameworks, eligibility standards and jobs coming into the technology world. Many people in my constituency have used the boiler replacement scheme. We should do all we can to help people to heat their home and to especially have alternatives when one scheme or type of fuel gets more expensive than the others. That is what we should all push for. <BR /> <BR />I have one or two questions. When the Minister is responding, will she confirm whether we will support the use of air-source heat pumps for domestic purposes? The Member who spoke previously touched on this and said that the previous renewable heat premium payment scheme provided a one-off payment of £1,700 to domestic consumers.”
“However, in the capital budget for the Department of the Environment, £50·5 million of financial transactions capital has been put aside for the project. That must have been an Executive decision. I ask Mrs Cameron to get her MP to write to the members of the Executive about that, because, at one end, all of us are saying that we do not want it, and, at the top end, we have people putting money aside so that it can happen. We should look at what we are all doing. We need to stop this happening. <BR /> <BR />I praise the No-Arc21 group, and I hope that the project stops now and that Bombardier is given the chance to deal with our waste.”
“I absolutely agree with Mrs Cameron that this is not Nimbyism. The Arc21 plan has attracted nearly 3,000 objections. If you add up the tonnage capacity required — I will not go into all the figures — the Bombardier site and Lisburn can deal with all the tonnage of the recycling waste that is suitable for them. That leaves nothing for Arc21. <BR /> <BR />Even if we locked ourselves into a contract, councils would probably have to buy in waste to meet the Arc21 targets. So it is essential that the Department looks at this properly. There is no reason why Arc21 should be allowed to go ahead with its proposal. <BR /> <BR />Something bothers me. Mrs Cameron's MP, Willie McCrea, is keen that we oppose the plan, I am keen that we oppose it, and there is cross-party agreement to oppose it.”
“I need to declare an interest, albeit a vague one, in that I worked for Shorts for three years in the late 1980s, so I still have a soft spot for Shorts or Bombardier. When Belfast City Council decided to turn down Duncrue Street, I felt that that was wrong and that the lough shore was the right sort of place to put anything that dealt with waste. However, it was the council's choice. <BR /> <BR />Now, Bombardier has planning permission for a plant that can cope with the tonnage that we need it to, and, as you heard, it did not receive any objections. It is on the lough shore, where it can provide energy for owned buildings, it has the major network and the docks, and it does not need a 29-year plan. That is where the plant should be.”
“If you even think it through, with the awful accident the other day with the school children in Antrim, here we have children crossing the road from a busy home side to the side where there are businesses and industry, and we do not have crossings. There was a whole mass of things that needed to be done. <BR /> <BR />Also buried in the back of my mind was an idea from schooldays that small was beautiful, which I think Professor Schumacher said. Here we were about to create an enormous body that was going to do everything. We had the South Waste Management Partnership (SWaMP) at the time, and North West, but as they dropped out, everything was left with this one big company. That just did not seem right. <BR /> <BR />If I can put it this way, Bombardier then comes to the rescue.”
“On the very first day that we went to the presentations, the first thing that went through my mind was the roads. All the roads went through areas where many people lived, yet missing from their map was the key Mayfield Road, which was the biggest one that could have taken lorries. That showed already that the thing had not been properly thought through or presented. <BR /> <BR />Once you looked at even that, you realised that you were trying to put 580 lorries through a busy area full of people, and one that already suffers from Biffa, smells, dirt and a mass of other industrial things. That makes life difficult.”
“I think that when it looks at those questions and comes up with its answers, it will realise that it is No-Arc21 that we should be supporting. I have left the Department with plenty of food for thought. <BR /> <BR />Ever since I went into politics, I have tried to base my actions on what I think is best for south Antrim and Northern Ireland, and to try to find the right thing to do for Northern Ireland. When I first heard of this proposal, I had been to Sheffield and saw how well an incinerator could work. In the back of mind was the thought that this was the right use: you were using a quarry and everything seemed to be correct. <BR /> <BR />But the more you looked at it, the worse it became, because so many details just did not work.”
“If we have seen all those changes, we realise that we need something that is flexible. <BR /> <BR />As has already been raised, I would also like the Department to look at the legal position of everything that is going on. We seem to have a process that is completely flawed. Is the relationship between Indaver and Beacon legal? Councillors who are long-term members of Arc21 are taking part in decisions in their councils but are about to be members of the new super-councils. Where does that place them? Is this legal or does it add more holes to the system? <BR /> <BR />Is the funding of Arc21 with council, European and Department money all legal? There are a mass of questions that we want the Department to answer.”
“Twenty-nine years, or nearly 30 years, seems far too long, unnecessarily long. Once again, when the Department does that, it will realise that there is no need for the Arc21 plan. <BR /> <BR />I also would like the Department to look at how a new bidder gets involved when there is new technology or more economic processes coming on board. How do you get flexibility into this so that we get a new system? Again, if you look at that, you will find that there is no need for the Arc21 plan or that it is not the right way to go forward. <BR /> <BR />All of us have looked at the changes in our own habits and waste in our own houses and we have seen new technologies come on board. We have seen incineration and a change to gasification. We have seen many new ways coming forward.”
“Thank you very much. That was a surprise. I thought I was going to be speaking third or fourth. <BR /> <BR />I, too, very much welcome this debate and congratulate Mrs Cameron for bringing it forward. I also praise the No-Arc21 campaign. I want to pose four questions to the Minister, which I hope will be passed on to him. <BR /> <BR />Would the Department sit down and calculate the tonnage figures, when they know that Bombardier, Lisburn, possibly Maydown, and even Derrylin are part of the future of waste? If the Department sits down and does an accurate calculation, it will see that there is no need for the Arc21 plan. <BR /> <BR />I would also like to ask the Department to look at how long a contract needs to be to be financially viable, given the likely tonnage.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. So we have got the review. However, when the consultation comes out, will the Minister guarantee that, if reform is needed, legislation will be brought forward?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers and look forward to hearing about many of the issues that we raised in that Adjournment debate. Does the Minister believe that the current penalties are effective as a deterrent, especially to public bodies, if, indeed, they are at fault? Does he have any idea why they are not working?”
“However, I think that this measure is eminently sensible and it is good to see it going through and taking off a burden. I hope that we can do it in many other areas so that, when we bring forward legislation, it all gets much simpler.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing forward this legislative consent motion. It all seems to be eminently sensible, although we seemed to be slightly at the mercy of the Department when we were being briefed and we looked forward to hearing more in certain areas. <BR /> <BR />Just now, the Minister listed one or two other areas that are not actually listed here. It may be that I was not listening properly or missed out, but I also think that there was a matter relating to the Companies House register. There are also one or two other matters that are going through the Lords. Are we, as a Committee, going to get more of a briefing on each of the other issues that are going through the Lords? Obviously, I would like to know and understand more.”
“I thank the Minister for her answers so far. Will she support my call for an enterprise zone at Belfast International Airport, because that would make it even more of a reason to connect flights to that airport?”
“There are so many things that we have to have in place to work with corporation tax. So, let us look quickly at what is there. I do not have the name of the American base, but I know that Fort Bragg has its own grid system. Let us look at how they got it and at putting in a pilot project and actually getting something in place. There is masses to be done. I look forward to hearing from the Minister. Let us hope that we can find a quick way of getting this all started and of getting somewhere.”
“Let us make sure that we have one. We have the actions, timelines and targets all put in place and, if necessary, pilot projects, given that our budgets will be struggling over the next few years. Let us find a way of getting forward very quickly indeed so that our businesses know that it is coming and that it will be on board and they can get the connections that they want. I know that it sounds easy to say that, but we must set targets so that we get there. <BR /> <BR />When we are talking of corporation tax maybe coming to us in the next few days, I think that it is just one of the masses of little things that we have to have in place. If you are going to bring investment into Northern Ireland, businesses have to know that their electricity system will be able to support them. I feel that we have been slow on that as well.”
“<BR /> <BR />I was appalled to see the comment in the document under the heading "Vision and Strategy" that said:”
“As of 31 December, I think that 686 single wind turbine applications were all waiting. We need to get a faster planning system. We need to go back to that point about being agile and moving quickly. We need an accurate heat map, open and transparent communication and to work with all the stakeholders all the time. <BR /> <BR />I am told that the cost of getting to that 40% is £420 million. We also have the cost of the interconnectors and of reinforcing. So, let us look at how Scotland, Wales and all the other countries have looked at raising funds, whether it is public-private funding or levering funding differently. Let us look at how we can do things quickly and finance them and work with everybody so that we have an economic and efficient system.”
“Let us make sure that we take on board what happens today and work quickly. We need to act with speed so that our economy can thrive, and electricity is very much part of that. <BR /> <BR />You heard from others today that our grid system is not even up to supporting our renewable target of 40%, that the planning system is slow and that the charging system is inconsistent. There are a lot of other issues to consider, and they are covered in the report. I thank the Ulster Farmers' Union for all its points. That was one of the few sessions that I was there for in my time on the Committee. We heard that the connection quotes are phenomenally expensive and that people are left with matters in limbo. Having paid their money, they still do not know whether they will get on to the grid. We need to resolve all those issues.”
“As many on the Committee will know, I am new to the subject. I was amazed to find how complicated our electricity industry is. I was also staggered to find that we have an electric power system that is based on the 1950s and 1960s. That is as old as me, and lots of me is failing already. No comments from the rest of you. <BR /> <BR />I am also staggered at how slow we seem to be at dealing with matters. When I spoke at our party conference, I called for the need for us to develop a world in which we are agile and make decisions quickly. We just do not seem to do that in this Building. That made me think of my army days when I was working slowly and the colour sergeant told me that I worked at the speed of a stunned slug. Let us make sure that we do not work at the speed of a stunned slug.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. While we are talking about the Irish-medium sector, can I just say that I am appalled and embarrassed by what is going on over the Irish language. <BR /> <BR />On this subject, we have development plans that seem to be splitting off the Irish-medium sector from groupings with other sectors. What effect will that have on other voluntary schools? We need to make sure that we have a level playing field for everybody.”
“The library has had to be cut back. There is the ideal place to work with: get the post office working with the library. All of us in here should be looking at each town and village, finding the focus and helping it work.”
“If we sit down and look at each town and think how we can work that town better, we can place the post office better into the middle of it and maybe share its workload and, if you use the diversification fund, help it benefit the town or village. <BR /> <BR />I, too, will talk about Randalstown, where the bank closed last week. I make it clear beforehand that I do not believe that the post office is under threat.”
“We can all do it through our Committees. Whether it is DVA-related, passports, banking, dog licences, tickets, housing benefits or many of the matters that we have raised already, the post offices could do it if we had a joined-up initiative from the Executive that worked downwards, with someone appointed to drive it from there. Then we probably need someone in every super-council area to do the same. <BR /> <BR />We could plan the future of our towns around those features. Think about what features will definitely survive. We know that we will always need the key shops such as the grocer's, the butcher's and the newsagent, and we know that we need the schools. We have the pubs and the coffee shops. You have Internet cafes, probably temporarily as fashions change. You have the transport hub in a town or village where the buses stop.”
“When we look at the wider picture and the challenges faced by our town centres and rural villages, which has already been touched on by many, we see that there have been bank closures, threats to libraries, public houses and Citizens Advice, and police station closures or reductions in opening hours. Therefore, it is now time to take a more strategic view on all of those under-threat services. I feel that the Executive, all Departments and, as the Chair suggested, all councils should work together, not just on post offices but on town and village centres. The post office is just one of the keys. <BR /> <BR />In the various briefs that we all received for today's debate, numerous Departments responded that they have passed nothing to post offices. Let us keep the pressure on them all. Let us make it work, and let us see them do it.”
“<BR /> <BR />The network's future could be transformed by supporting branches to become more entrepreneurial and for branches to experiment with new business models. Let us see that diversification fund there helping them. <BR /> <BR />In the context of a new trend in the UK towards the local, characterised by growing a microbusiness community and the development of community-based approaches to public service reform, it could be argued that post offices are ideally placed to become community enterprise hubs, which, for instance, could provide business support to make communities and also meet the needs of the UK's ageing population and address the isolation felt by older people.”
“The resulting report, 'Making the Connection', asked how post offices could provide services that support their local communities while also contributing to the bottom line. The report concluded that post offices have great potential to act as community enterprise hubs and that huge opportunities exist for post offices to offer support with everything from universal credit to business advice. The Scottish and Welsh have recognised it, and we should be following their examples. <BR />When looking through the research and on the Web, I was intrigued to see that the United States was also meeting the same difficulties, and I am sure that it is happening worldwide as the Internet and everything changes matters.”
“However, I will say that the post office network has faced significant challenges in recent years, including the decline of the high street and the advent of the Internet. We can all tell our own stories of post offices closing in our constituencies over the past decade, both in rural areas and in towns. Whether planned or simply because retiring sub-postmasters have not been replaced, the story, at one level, seems to be one of terminal decline. However, it does not necessarily have to be so. Let us all here ensure that that does not happen. <BR /> <BR />I want to highlight a recent report commissioned by the Post Office and produced by the Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce (RSA). In 2013-14, the RSA ran a project on post offices as community enterprise hubs.”
“What I am really leading up to saying today is that the onus is on all of us here and our colleagues in our parties to make sure that the same does not happen this time. <BR /> <BR />I wholeheartedly support the motion and, like others, want to acknowledge the tremendous contribution made by the post office network. If you think about it, you realise it is very much behind our health and our happiness as a nation, both in the past and in the future. If any community knew that their post office was under threat, you would find all of them crowding and supporting it in the future. So, let us make sure that we wind this up nicely so that everybody is supportive and works hard to keep the post offices. <BR /> <BR />I am the fifth Member to speak, so you have heard most of the arguments and the points that have been made.”
“I am very pleased to speak on the motion, although, having listened to the Member who spoke previously, at one stage, I thought that we were going to get a rendition of Adam Ant's 'Stand and Deliver'. Then we got the bells — the bells from Quasimodo. To be serious, I am very pleased to be here to support the motion. I congratulate Mr Lyttle for pushing it through. <BR /> <BR />I remember speaking — I think it was six years ago — on another motion, which was six steps to saving our post office. After that, I then concentrated on asking questions, as Mr Lyttle has, and getting many answers. When I went back with the answers to the organisation that had been pushing us, I found that that campaign had waned and gone.”
“Does the Minister regret wasting time discussing the cost of devolving corporation tax with Her Majesty's Treasury, when the decision was always going to be a political one that would be made in Number 10?”
“Minister, you said that sectoral groups were meeting, but I am being informed that those meetings have stopped. Whether it is departmental meetings or other meetings, will you please make sure that those are restored so that the partnerships work?”
“Equally, there does not seem to be any monitoring system for consents to discharge: when someone has consent to discharge, no one checks what they discharge. <BR />A whole lot of things lead to the pollution of rivers, and what I am really asking is whether the Minister will review the situation. I know that the Deputy Speaker will be very keen for me to stop there. However, remember that angling is not just a hobby or a livelihood; it helps the whole ecosystem. I look forward to things changing in the future.”
“Will the Minister please look at how we can enforce that throughout Northern Ireland and not just on the Sixmilewater? <BR /> <BR />There used to be two very good biannual cross-sectoral departmental meetings at which everything was discussed. Those have been stopped. They were very useful for everybody, and we need those to start again or find something suitable to replace them. <BR /> <BR />We need to know who is responsible for cleaning out rivers — when things are left in rivers, whose responsibility is it? If we do not know who is responsible, items just stay in rivers, and you get flooding like that which happened in Antrim a few years ago when the bridges blocked up and the water found its way into people's homes.”
“I entirely agree. There is a maximum £20,000 fine, but the Minister and we, as politicians, need to find a better way forward so that there is a suitable punishment and suitable compensation is paid. That is key. <BR /> <BR />I have been told by one observer that otters, kingfishers and dippers were back on the Sixmilewater and that they had all come back since 2008, although I have not seen them myself. I wrote a note of congratulation in the press when we heard that dollaghan, trout and salmon were well back in the river and of a decent size. Then we got the pollution. That is why I ask the Minister again to review how we deal with this. <BR /> <BR />On Friday, the Six Mile Water Trust met Jim Nicholson. Many other issues were raised, all of which are relevant. We do not seem to be working properly to the European water directive.”
“Yet, there are still things that we can all do better. Everyone is working together, and the reason I raise that is because that is the way we should be working — in partnerships. We need to find better ways of working, particularly at a time of fewer resources. <BR /> <BR />As already touched on, we need suitable fines. Under the fining system, for an offence committed on a non-commercial basis it is a £2,000 fine plus a compensation order with a sentencing range between £1,000 and three months in custody and compensation. For an offence committed on a commercial basis, two months in custody and as high as a £10,000 fine and three months.”
“<BR /> <BR />I know that one Member mentioned that the treatment plant may have been responsible in this case. However, there are two industrial areas that need to be checked and a waste area that might be leaching. We need to have a thorough check. As I said, that all needs to happen at the beginning. Therefore, we need a good database. <BR /> <BR />I know that we have extremely good groups working on the river, and some of them are sitting here in the Chamber above me. We have the Six Mile Water Trust — the anglers. Today, I want to praise not only them but the good work done on many occasions by the A8 team when they were contacted. When things went wrong, they dealt with them. However, things should not have gone wrong. We also have very good relationships with the wastewater plant.”
“I certainly agree that it is difficult, but it is a task that I think we should start doing. If you at least have a good database, you can move forward. Within that, you need to have trained samplers. <BR />I have asked for that already in the Chamber two or three times. We really need much better use of volunteers and all the people who are involved on the rivers and could sample. We need to look at where sampling should be happening all the time and how it should be done. We should also ensure that it is not just government sampling by government sources. We need some form of independent sampling and something that can hold government to account if, indeed, it is the polluter. It needs to be thorough, and it needs to happen extremely quickly.”
“We all need to be involved, but it needs to be immediate and fast. <BR /> <BR />I know that DCAL and the NIEA were down on the day. I am sorry that I was not there; I was away on holiday. They could not cover every angle, and I feel that we should have a really comprehensive list, on every river, of all the people who neighbour on to a river and all the people who could pollute it so that when a pollution incident happens people know exactly who to check and who the most likely polluters are. They could then go straight to those locations and not be limited by numbers.”
“Before we start, I need to declare an interest in that I own some land that neighbours on to the Sixmilewater. I am not sure that that means that I actually own any of the river, but I declare an interest anyway. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the debate. It is sad that we have to do it again. One of the first debates I led was on exactly this subject a few years ago. We really have to get to the point where it does not happen, and I hope that it never happens again. <BR /> <BR />The Minister has heard the details of this fish kill, and what I am really asking for is that we look at a new way of dealing with things. We are asking for a review of how things are done so that we get an immediate, comprehensive and open and transparent action on the day, and from then on, so that we eventually know who the polluter is and that the polluter pays.”
“That continual moving of the goalposts is going to have an increasingly significant knock-on impact on people's ability to save and plan for the future. <BR /> <BR />Only today, when meeting teaching unions, we heard how many teachers wish to, or need to, retire early and 68 years may not suit many teachers. We need flexibility. Therefore, I ask the Minister, dependent on future provisions in Westminster of course, whether the Bill will settle the issue for the foreseeable future or does he envisage further changes?”
“<BR /> <BR />One area of concern that my party has is the further change to the pension age. As the Minister said, bringing forward the planned increase in state pension age to 67 — or 68, I think, in some cases — by eight years will deliver net benefits-related savings to the Department for Social Development of almost £2 billion in real terms. That is a significant sum. The continual changing of the timetable, however, is not ideal. One must remember that, in the 2008 Act, the pension age was meant to increase to 66 between 2034 and 2038. The 2012 Act brought that forward to October 2020, and this Bill proposes to accelerate the increase to 67 years from 2034-36 to 2026-28. In other words, this is the third increase and/or acceleration in six years.”
“We need to keep our pensions structure flexible, but we must also ensure enough stability to allow people who are approaching pension age an awareness of what support they are likely to receive. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that one of the Bill's objectives is to reduce the number of people who have to rely on pension credit, but, of course, the objective may differ from what happens in reality. Therefore, that will need to be watched carefully. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the introduction of the new pension scheme in two years' time, with its single component flat rate, will lead to a more simplified system. In addition, the introduction of the bereavement support payment will, hopefully, move to a more uniform structure and a simplified payment system.”
“I welcome the opportunity to make a few comments at Second Stage in place of our social development spokesperson. <BR /> <BR />The Bill makes a number of changes, some of which are very significant. Of course, the Bill mirrors the provisions of Westminster's Pensions Act 2014. Pensions across the UK are parallel. Although I believe that the Assembly is right to use its powers to dissect every technical aspect of welfare reform, we are right to exercise caution with pensions. Our pension system needs to be forward-looking. Given our rapidly ageing population, as well as that across the wider UK, support for our elderly is going to demand increasing attention, as well as financial investment, over years to come.”
“As one of those who enjoyed the clink, clink of water into buckets in my office on Monday and Tuesday, I want to know whether we have got to a point where that is the end of the damage that is going to be done or whether it is likely to continue if we have further bad weather.”
“The budget for the coownership scheme has previously been given major additional allocations because of the previous Minister's underspending on the social housing development programme. Does the current Minister accept that, as positive and successful as coownership is, it should not be used to provide political cover for managerial failures?”
“May I follow that question? I am sure that the Minister is expecting me to show interest in Randalstown and Castledawson. Will he confirm the latest cost estimates of the scheme if it is delivered in phases?”
“Given the seriousness of recent attacks on prison officers and the fact that such attacks have doubled in the last three years, is it not the case that we need to do something now to change the situation so that officers are more secure and the Minister lives up to his duty of care to them?”
“We need to find that way forward, because it is not just the children who are at school now; it is the next generation and the next generation. As they all move towards that shared system, it has to be better for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to the staff, senior officers and members of all the education and library boards and say a huge "Thank you" to everyone in the system who works so incredibly hard to make sure that our children have a good education. They give long, long hours. We all need to give them a very big "Thank you". I look forward to seeing everything fall into place as the Bill moves forward, but I want to re-emphasise that it is an interim Bill. We need to find a way forward, and this is a good start. As Mr Hazzard said, everyone gave a little. I support the Bill.”