David McIlveen
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the member for her answer. I completely appreciate that, when we are dealing with personnel, there should be confidentiality. However, in a general sense, will the member assure me and the House that there has been even-handedness in the way in which the matter has been dealt with and that original thought in social media and the…”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I am very glad that the last question that I asked in this mandate — of her anyway — delivered some good news. There had been some concerns about the fact that, historically, there was at times a backlog in processing blue badge applications. A lot of time was involved in getting them processed.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. He is aware that the news that the good people of east Belfast had to come to terms with last week is something that my constituents in North Antrim have had to face up to on at least three occasions recently, with the closure of Patton's and the announcements by JTI and Michelin.”
“I thank the First Minister for her answers so far. The Minister will also be aware that another central component of the Delivering Social Change initiative was the nurture unit programme. Can the Minister give us an indication of the impact so far of the nurture unit programme?”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will try my very best. As we come to the dawning of the age of the Department for Employment and Learning, there is obviously an opportunity for reflection. Whilst the Minister has been very good at delivering initiatives, some may say that he has not been so successful at delivering reform.”
“I sincerely hope that narrow political points of view will be set aside when it comes to the debate and the vote because I genuinely and sincerely believe that if one Member — even if it is just one — decides to vote against these changes, they will be on the wrong side of public opinion.”
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“That broader discussion will definitely need to happen, but I am not convinced that this is the time to do it. <BR /> <BR />That said, I welcome the Member's premise. It is very telling, and it will not go unnoticed by the electorate, that there are people, even in the Assembly, who are very vocal in their opposition to the so-called Tory cuts, but, when they have the opportunity to make their voices heard in the national Parliament, they refuse to do so and miss that opportunity. The electorate's patience is growing thin. I believe that, in this election, the electorate will be looking not only at those who are shouting the loudest but at those who are backing up their words with actions. <BR /> <BR />This is a unique opportunity, and the precedent has been set.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion, which is very timely as we come up to 7 May, and the election draws ever closer. I listened with interest to what the proposer of the motion said, and I think that the issue of Europe needs to be looked at very quickly. Amongst those who wish for the status quo with Europe to remain, there is hysteria about the very prospect of a referendum, but, importantly, there has not even been any agreement at this stage on what the referendum question would be. Given that, at this point in the election, we do not know what will happen on 7 May in any great form, we have to be careful not to allow ourselves to get drawn into an almost hysterical position on what our future relationship with Europe would look like.”
“— are the same as the needs of every other sector across our community is a myth. It suggests a misunderstanding of the whole principle of equality by the Members on the opposite Benches.”
“I am sorry, I am coming very close to the end of my remarks, and I want to make one final remark about the single equality Bill. If we take a view that the single equality Bill will be the panacea that sorts everything out, we are living in cloud cuckoo land. To suggest that the needs of the education sector —”
“It is quite happy for DEL to continue to fund and churn out teachers, knowing full well that the jobs are simply not there for them. I believe that a penalty should be enforced on the Department of Education if it continues to allow an oversupply of teachers in the sector. I think that we have to —”
“I am sorry, but I have a few other points that I want to get through. <BR /> <BR />There needs to be a consultation. If a decision is not taken voluntarily in the sector, we will have to look at equality legislation to see what can be done to deal with the issue. However, it would be much better if the sector stepped up to the mark and dealt with these issues itself. Furthermore, there is still an issue with the oversupply of teachers, which is inextricably linked to this issue. <BR /> <BR />There is a systemic problem as well. Think of the health service for example. The Department that pays for the training of new doctors is the same Department that pays for their employment. That is not the issue that we have in education. There is a laissez-faire attitude in the Department of Education.”
“It is seldom that I go round the doors of my constituency and do not meet a parent whose son or daughter has been unable to find employment in the education sector; in the worst-case scenarios, they may have had to leave Northern Ireland completely. They have applied for jobs in the Catholic sector, and it is clear that they do not get them because they do not hold this certificate. It is perhaps the worst form of discrimination: silent discrimination. The statistics perhaps are not always there, but that does not mean that discrimination is not in place. We have to be very clear on that.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was formerly a member of the Employment and Learning Committee. The last time the head of St Mary's was before the Committee when I was a member of it, I asked this very question: how many Protestant students are there in St Mary's College? The answer was a small number. I cannot remember the exact figure off the top off my head. When I took it a little bit further and asked how many of those students were not in liberal arts but in the teacher-training side of the college, the answer was a very clear and resounding zero. There is no appetite. <BR /> <BR />It is so clear. I am sorry to the Member, but I represent a constituency where people are being very heavily affected by this.”
“There is no reason why such a system would not work in our primary-school sector, and it would completely remove this discrimination. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to Mr Sheehan.”
“However, I will happily take an intervention from the other side of the House if somebody can tell me the difference between Catholic maths and Protestant maths, Catholic English and Protestant English, or Catholic science and Protestant science. Those subjects are universal and can be taught by people who are Protestant, Catholic or any other particular religion, as indeed is the case in the rest of the United Kingdom. That is where we have to be very careful not to fall into a trap. <BR /> <BR />The precedent has already been set. In primary schools today, where a teacher does not have the ability to teach music to primary-school children, the class will move to where such a teacher is for a time, be it an afternoon or a couple of hours, to be taught music.”
“I will in just a moment. <BR /> <BR />The teaching of a Catholic ethos in schools was also raised, and I am certainly one who has some sympathy for that principle. I think that it was Mr Rogers who said that, if a parent is teaching their children a certain ethos in the home, which they are perfectly entitled to do, and there is a contrary ethos being taught to them in school, that could be very destabilising to the needs of the child. However, that is not what this motion is asking for; it is certainly not what we have been calling for. <BR /> <BR />What we have been asking for is that when it comes to religious studies, which is obviously a very specific issue where there may be varying views from sector to sector, parental choice should be taken into consideration.”
“I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this motion as a member of the OFMDFM Committee. It is abundantly clear that the Catholic certificate of education is providing fuel to a culture of discrimination in our education sector. The last Member who spoke tried to make the point that there is no statistical evidence. There is statistical evidence. The statistical evidence is the miniscule number of young Protestant teachers who teach in the Catholic education sector. That statistic is clear for everyone to see.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that, in the coming days, as a result of this report, each Department within the Executive here in Northern Ireland will ensure that there are better and closer working relationships with the European Union and that every cent and euro that comes into Northern Ireland is used to benefit the people we represent.”
“So, I think that the Executive office needs to look at how it can be a little more innovative in dealing with local businesses and helping them to tap into this money. <BR /> <BR />Generally speaking, the drawdown of funds is something that Northern Ireland needs to do better, particularly in the coming days. Negotiations are going on at Executive level on how to deal with welfare reform. However, if we find ourselves in a position where more Sinn Féin cuts are put upon the Assembly as a result of failure to implement welfare reform, our reliance on Europe will be even greater, particularly for arts and cultural organisations, which will be hit tremendously hard by the budget cuts that will come as a result. Therefore, stronger, greater engagement with the European Union at that level will be even more important.”
“Therefore, they rely entirely on introductions to other companies, perhaps in other parts of Europe, so that they can collaborate. The staff of our European office in particular are the ones with the contacts and expertise in this matter. Unless they help to bring companies together and help our home businesses to deal with the bureaucracy and red tape involved in getting access to funds, we will, unfortunately, always lag behind other parts of the United Kingdom. <BR /> <BR />Look at what the Executive office of Scotland is doing: it is exceptionally good at almost spoon-feeding businesses the information that they need. Let us face it: most directors of local companies are getting on with running their businesses; they do not have time to fill in forms and trawl through the endless tenders coming through the European system.”
“We think of schemes such as Horizon 2020, for example, which brings together businesses from all parts of Europe. To go back to what I said in my opening remarks, such cooperation is what the European Union was founded for, and certainly we would like to see more of it. <BR /> <BR />One thing that came out of the sessions that we had, particularly with the Office of the Northern Ireland Executive in Brussels, is that its representatives probably failed to convince some of us that everything that could be done is being done to help businesses in Northern Ireland. Many of our small and medium-sized enterprises just do not have the numbers, on their own, to pursue a lot of these high-yielding, high-profit schemes.”
“However, this is my difficulty: in my view, the European Union was never set up to meddle with the justice system of an independent jurisdiction, its environmental policy, or how much fishing could be done in the waters around it. Until those issues are properly dealt with, broad acceptance of the utopia to which Mr McGlone refers is perhaps some way off. I hope that, in the coming days, there will be a renegotiation of how the powers of Europe impact on us in this part of the United Kingdom. <BR /> <BR />To touch on what Mr McGlone says, my interest is particularly around business, how it can do better from engaging with the European Union, and how it can get involved in some of the schemes that are going around at the minute. There is tremendous potential for businesses in Northern Ireland to benefit incredibly from such collaboration.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. Admittedly, I came to the Committee a little bit later, before the report had already been started, so I came into it when it was already well under way. I welcome its publication and many of its findings. I do so as an open-minded Eurosceptic; I have no difficulty in being described in that way because I am entirely open-minded. I accept the entire premise as to why the European Union was set up in the first place: to ensure that Europe would never again find itself at war and, furthermore, encourage greater cooperation between all the states of Europe. I am entirely in favour of that principle and concept.”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his answer and welcome the fact of his church attendance in the last couple of weeks. Will the deputy First Minister give us some indication, bearing in mind that he made the point that faith is not just reserved for the Christian community but is broader, of whether he has any objections to the issue of the protection and the rights of people of faith being included in the commission that was recommended by the Stormont House Agreement? Has he any objections to that being part of it?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his answer and for the vital work that is being done for that group of vulnerable people within our society. Has any thought been given, under the Delivering Social Change network, to some sort of a cross-departmental signature project that might be particularly targeted towards the needs of our older people?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. In the knowledge that the system that we have at the minute is an evolving system and, as the Minister rightly said, one in which improvements have had to be made, does she believe that, where decisions have been taken erroneously by the Department or where the Department has made mistakes in calculations in what was clearly an imperfect system, it is right that farmers — not those who, to use her words, "try to cheat the system" but those who were genuine and made no mistakes — continue to be pursued for the outstanding amounts?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Does he agree with me that spending £1·7 million on Ballymena courthouse in one year and then subject it to closure the next shows a Minister and a Department that are fiscally irresponsible?”
“I thank the Minister for her answers so far. She will, of course, not be surprised that I entirely support the Member of South Belfast's sentiments and his call for greater transatlantic connectivity. However, we would perhaps struggle to encourage direct connectivity to areas like China, India and Russia that we are seeking to do business with. Would the Minister support the proposed expansion of Heathrow Airport, and would she see it as having a long-term benefit to Northern Ireland's economy, as well as to the south-east of England?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member agree that, in areas such as south Armagh, which has been scourged by the curse of fuel smuggling and the illicit cross-border trade going through that part of Northern Ireland, moderate nationalist voters who have been plagued by that will equally rejoice today and that, come an election, they may be influenced by the outcomes of what happens in the House today?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his answers so far. I also welcome his condemnation of the murders of two hostages by ISIS in Syria. Also, at the tail end of last week, two other murders took place in Syria. Two Israeli soldiers were murdered by Hezbollah in the southern part of Syria. Will the deputy First Minister join me in also condemning the murders of those two Israeli soldiers?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer to that question. The Minister will recall that, at the end of November, Dr Sara Hedderwick from the Royal Victoria Hospital suggested that there was almost an inevitability that these shores might be affected by Ebola. In light of what the Minister has just said and in light of what the doctor said, is the Minister satisfied that this part of the United Kingdom — Northern Ireland — is at a ready state of preparedness if that unfortunate eventuality occurs?”
“That is what we want to deal with when it comes to the passing of this legislation and that is why, in principle, we have no difficulty with what the legislation is trying to achieve. However, we certainly would want to make sure that, as it progresses through its further stages, including the Committee, all those issues are thoroughly interrogated and that an unnecessary bureaucratic burden is not put on resources and Departments that are hugely under pressure.”
“No, in no way am I saying that. In fact, I think that most of us, and certainly I have regularly been on record as saying this, that we want better collaboration between Departments. However, we are not talking about the principle of collaboration; nobody is against that principle. What we are talking about is putting that in statute and, when you do that, it goes from being a principle to something that has to be very rigidly adhered to. <BR /> <BR />We are all long enough in politics to realise that, sometimes, the wheels of Departments do not turn not just as quickly as we want them to, particularly from a cross-departmental point of view. We want to avoid anything coming into statue that is not absolutely crystal clear about the fact that it will not remove front-line resources to deal with unnecessary bureaucratic burdens.”
“What the Member has failed to address is the fact that the Bill would significantly change the processes through which that would be done. It may just be the way that it is drafted. I accept that, and that is why we are all approaching the Bill with an open mind. However, as it is drafted, I feel that it will put a burden on public bodies that does not currently exist, and I know that it has also been the view of the Committee and other colleagues. We have to be acutely aware of that —”
“The fact is, if we find ourselves in a position in which a case is referred to a health and social care trust, the reply from that will require clarification from the PSNI. The PSNI may require clarification from another area and, by the time that comes back to the PSNI, there may only be a very limited amount of time left to compile the report within the two-year statute bar. We would have a problem with that if the PSNI was to find itself in a position in which it would be in breach of legislation if it did not get the required information in on time and had to pull resources from the front line to deal with it. So, there is a human resource cost as well as a capital cost. <BR /> <BR />If the Member wants to continue his intervention, I would certainly welcome it.”
“If you would just let me finish the point. I know the point that you want to make.”
“There are two types of cost. First, there is money, as in the physical cost of the capital that we would put into it; I will speak about that in a moment. However, there is also the human resource cost. I think that the Member, in his challenges, has failed to address the fact that the reports that would be compiled as part of this legislation are statute barred to two years. Colleagues whom I sit with, in the House and, for example, on the Policing Board, know that, when it comes to dealing with a circle of correspondence, two years is not a long time. In many cases —”
“I share the concerns about how we get to the end the point of the Bill. I do not think that anyone can say, with any degree of credibility, that, if the Bill were to be made law in its current form today, it would not cause an increase in bureaucracy. It is clear that a bureaucratic load would be put on all the Departments that are asked to be part of it. <BR /> <BR />Now, that said —”
“Few in the House could deny that the aspirations behind the Bill are worthy of support. Therefore, I, like my colleagues, take the view that, at this stage, we will not stand in the way of the Bill progressing to its further stages.”
“I thank the First Minister for his answers so far. First Minister, touching a little on what you said, I ask you to elaborate on what could be done to make the post more attractive, given that there was a relatively low number of candidates for quite a high-profile position.”
“— even though they were in the minority. Once that community gets its head around that issue and starts using the system that we already have, the cost of division will plummet.”
“However, anybody within that boundary who wants to celebrate their identity, whatever it may be, has every right to do so. <BR /> <BR />Very briefly, I will conclude on the issue of education. I went to a grammar school that was not a Protestant school. We do not have Protestant schools in Northern Ireland. I welcome and applaud the Roman Catholic families who stepped outside the mould and sent their children to my school —”
“<BR /> <BR />I find myself really agreeing with Mr Eastwood here. Like Mr Moutray, he touched on the myth of "both sides of the community" that we still cling to in Northern Ireland. When will we learn that, after 20 years of relative peace, we no longer have "both sides of the community"? We have a thriving migrant community from eastern Europe, South America, China, Russia and many countries. We can learn so much from that. Those communities welcome the fact that they reside in this part of the United Kingdom, but they also celebrate the fact that they have their unique identity. Why can we, in Northern Ireland, not learn from that? Why can we not get to grips with the fact that the constitutional position of this country is set in the St Andrews Agreement. It is not up for debate.”
“He said that the issue of parading was a balance of rights and responsibilities. In my view, the right of somebody to walk on the Queen's highway has long been set in our constitution and should always be guarded. However, with those rights come responsibilities, and I am the first person to acknowledge that. As a former member of the Orange Order and a loyalist band, I always sought to walk with responsibility when I was parading, no matter what part of Northern Ireland I was parading in. That is something that all lodges and bands should adhere to. When they go to an area where perhaps there are those who may not exactly be bought into the cultural identity that they represent, they should present themselves with dignity and respect. Certainly, they should not walk in a way that is provocative to any section of our society.”
“When it comes specifically to the cost, a point has to be made about where the cost actually emanates from. In my capacity as a member of the Policing Board, I have regularly questioned the Chief Constable and his assistant chief constables on parading and the cost of parading. Every assistant chief constable whom I have asked about the issue always gives me the same answer: the cost of policing a parade, in a general sense, is virtually nothing. A small amount of traffic policing is required, which is a relatively small cost to bear for a parade. However, when you come to a parade that is being molested, inhibited or protested against in a way that creates tension, as we have seen in Drumcree and at Twaddell, the costs of policing mushroom. <BR /> <BR />In a roundabout way, I agree with Mr Eastwood.”
“I will keep my comments as brief as I can. This is a useful debate. The tone has been set by one or two Members who have decided, unfortunately, to go down the road of finger-pointing, and that is regrettable. It completely misreads the spirit of the motion, and I think that it is fair to say that none of the main political parties in the House can say that their hands are completely clean in relation to how division has, at times, been handled in this society. I could give examples; however, that would be to fall into the very trap that I am trying to speak against. Those who have, at times, encouraged division know who they are, and they will have to deal with that.”
“In relation to the Minister's last question, surely considerable respect is shown for the diversity of languages in Northern Ireland; we are the only part of the United Kingdom that provides an interpreting service for all our ethnic minority communities. We are unique in that regard, and we should be very proud of that. What discussion took place around how we recognise all the minority languages in Northern Ireland, which, of course, take in many of our recent immigrants over the last 10 years from eastern Europe and other parts of the world?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way, and I certainly welcome what he has just said. In the knowledge that there is a severe breach of confidence between the public in the Ballycastle and wider north Antrim area and the Northern Trust, could the Minister give some assurances that there will be an element of independence to this consultation to ensure that there is a fair outcome rather than one predetermined by the trust?”
“The point was made about how good it is to have a devolved Minister. I ask the Minister to comment on how many people have made use of our devolved Minister since the press release. How many people have actually spoken to him about it?”
“Jim, I will try to give time at the end if I can. <BR /> <BR />I have to say that there is little trust in the north Antrim area towards the Northern Trust at this moment in time. Therefore, I propose and would like to see a root-and-branch review of Dalriada Hospital that is independent of the Northern Trust and is based on figures from before 30 October this year. <BR /> <BR />There is a sign as you drive down the main A26 that states, in very simple terms, "Don't let the Dal die". From the day and minute that the press release was issued, that is what the Northern Trust started to do, in my view. It started to let the Dal die. It failed to allow any new admissions, and therefore, on that basis, there is very little trust in what the Northern Trust is telling us. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude very quickly.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is my understanding that there are purchased beds in place until the middle of February at least for MS respite care, so the view of Dr Tony Stevens in that press release entirely contradicts what the Minister told me in April this year.”
“I am sorry; I will try to do so at the end, Stewart, if there is time. <BR /> <BR />The third reason that I am critical of the trust is that it sought to overrule a previous ministerial decision. I have a letter dated 18 April 2014 that was sent to me about a constituent I was working with in relation to respite services in the Dal. The letter told me that all purchased bed days and respite bookings have been honoured and will continue to be honoured in the facility — not in the Northern Trust but in the facility, meaning Dalriada, which the original letter related to. However, we were told later on, in the press release of 30 October, that the multiple sclerosis respite centre would also temporarily close from 30 November 2014.”
“There is absolutely no ambiguity around where the proposals came from. They came from the trust and the chief executive. Indeed, it is on the written record that that is the case.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention, and I am sure that the Minister will respond to that. <BR /> <BR />The second reason why I am extremely critical of the trust is its handling of the release of this information. I received a press release, along with all Members I am sure, on 30 October this year. I do not want it to appear in any way that this side of the House is backing its Minister and the other side of the House can take a pop at him. That is not what it is about. This transcends politics, and we have to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the people we represent and their needs. There is absolutely no ambiguity in the press release about who was proposing the change of services in Dalriada. <BR /> <BR />The trust chief executive, Dr Tony Stevens, said:”
“However, five months into the existing Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition, George Osborne was very clear that there would be cuts across all the devolved regions of the United Kingdom. Therefore, in my view, the Northern Trust has had four years to put its house in order but has failed to do so. It is entirely unfair that the pressure that is now being placed on our community is being done at this late stage, when there was plenty of advance notice for the trust to deal with that and to put its house in order.”