Claire Hanna
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far and for the announcement of the inquiry. In common with other Opposition parties, we have been calling for a long number of weeks for an inquiry under the 2005 Act. I am glad of the acknowledgement of that.”
“My question was about a contingency or plan B, as the challenge was entirely foreseeable. Has the Minister given any thought to publishing an anonymised list? Such a list could contain some geographical detail, the date, the output and the payment, so that we can get a sense of the levels of applicants that are credible and not credible.”
“— it is so important we let the people who have put all those qualities into the public discourse know they have been validated and that the redress they are entitled to is delivered to them.”
“I thank all those who have spoken. Like others, I attended the launch of the report on Friday and have spent some time since reading it. I think that, for everybody there, it was a very difficult few hours — even for those of us who did not live through those experiences.”
“<BR /> <BR />Colin McGrath, when moving the motion, referred to the appalling shooting last night of a public servant and member of the PSNI as an illustration of what we have failed to eliminate and what we are definitely not returning to, but, as we said, that opportunity has been squandered.”
“<BR /> <BR />Colin McGrath made the point that, despite the disappointment and the stop and start of progress, if we found ourselves 20 years back, we would still push to try and deliver the Good Friday Agreement, because the fact is the that core analysis of John Hume's three strands still stands.”
The complete record
Every one of 479 lines we hold for Claire Hanna, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 4 of 10.
“They cannot be expected to police us out of political failure, and action or otherwise on any issue should not be dictated by who is going to make the most trouble. The spectacle of the PSNI apologising for removing flags in Ballyclare because there was a riot afterwards is an affront to any society based on law and order, but it is inevitable when we are asking an organisation that is necessarily impartial to operate in a political context with no framework. We are not being prescriptive at this stage about what form a licensing system would take, but we are asking that people at least acknowledge that there is an unsustainable issue to be dealt with and to engage rationally and constructively in finding a solution.”
“Thankfully, I did not hear that. <BR /> <BR />I have sympathy for the public agencies that are called on to devise policy and cover for what is a political problem, although I would like them to be more consistent. An SDLP councillor was asked very promptly to remove anti-burglary posters he erected a few months ago. Transport NI cannot be solely responsible for regulating flags on its property, and I felt for the Housing Executive on Thursday when it was asked to unilaterally adjudicate on the suitability of a new UDA mural on one of its properties. However, it is a pressure that is probably most acutely felt by the PSNI, which is being asked to judge flagging or flag removal in the context of public disorder.”
“Apparently elected representatives will sanction that. Further, local arrangements in many cases have no clear basis and are made by self-appointed gatekeepers, with no discussion with local residents. People do —”
“No, you can come back in. You will have your own time.”
“I am happy to address that. Would the Member like to state other areas in which it is appropriate to break the law because you do not like a democratic decision? If people put up signs or start street riots because they do not agree, for example, with the UK-wide vote on Brexit, is that acceptable to us? Are we saying you can break the law because you do not agree with a decision that was made by a majority of elected representatives? The fact is that this has been a problem for a very long time, and it is not good enough to say, "Because of a separate democratic decision, we will break the law". Apparently, our elected representatives —”
“I will, Christopher. Do I get an extra minute if I give way? I have a lot to say. Go ahead.”
“<BR /> <BR />Much reference is made to the 2005 flags protocol, which was devised between the PSNI and various Departments. It has been eroded in almost every aspect. The proliferation of flags on arterial routes was supposed to have been prevented, and flags were definitely not supposed to be flown in integrated areas. Finaghy, the Lisburn Road, the Ormeau and Rosetta fit that bill probably more than any streets.”
“I did it in one ward, and I think it could be done in others. Malone Ward runs, as South Belfast representatives know, from Balmoral Avenue to Marlborough Park. I walked up one day, and there were 23 flags on lamp posts. I did a consistent survey in every street in the ward, which is home to about 4,000 people in about 200 households. I found that four houses were flying flags, so I do not think it is fair to say that that is representative of the neighbourhood. I am not saying it is a plebiscite in every area — other factors will be taken into consideration — but I do not think the views of four households should have been projected on to every household in that ward and in a very busy shopping area for so many months.”
“In fact, in 30 years at five addresses in South Belfast, I have never lived more than 200 metres from a main route that has been flagged and a main parade route, and I will state for the record that I have never in my life objected to an Orange parade along those routes. When I was growing up, flags went up about a week before the Twelfth demonstration and came down about a week after. People probably were not dying about it — we were not dying about it — but we lived and let live because we understood how important that key parade route was to very many people. We understood there was a balance: the flags went up and came down in a fairly timely fashion. That compromise has been lost now in many areas, as flags are left to rot for months on end. <BR /> <BR />I did a small survey last summer to gauge the level of local support for flags.”
“In this case, we think it should be based on the principle that individuals and small groups do not get to decide on the character and atmosphere of an entire neighbourhood and that one event or political viewpoint cannot dominate a whole neighbourhood for months on end. As stated, we support the right of any individual or family to fly a legal flag but do not support someone unilaterally, with no consultation, projecting that view on everybody else for the whole summer and longer. <BR /> <BR />For the many constituents who contact me on this, it is the duration of flag flying that distresses them most. I grew up a few metres off the Lisburn Road.”
“Your poster about your lost cat or charity disco, which is considerably less divisive, will be removed a lot more quickly. <BR /> <BR />There is a serious lack of clarity, and I think that there is a deliberate political fudge on what is and is not permissible. For that reason, we believe that fresh legislation is overdue. I want to be clear that the SDLP's preference and ambition is for neutral public space that is free from the flying of this sort of symbol. We are not blind to the fact that not all of them are malign. I understand that not everybody is seeking to just mark territory. Also, we know that that aspiration is not shared by all parties in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />We think it is time for a fair compromise. Fair compromises are possible. I believe one took place at City Hall on designated day flying.”
“That is not just a perception of mine: in the life and times survey, 66% of people across all communities stated their perception that flag flying was done by paramilitaries. I am also aware of families who have received intimidation when a flag outside their house was removed, not by them, I might add. The police will confirm, as will many of us who have had conversations about the cat-and-mouse chasing to get the flags down, that the people who they are conducting those conversations with frequently are in paramilitary groups. I know genuinely that no Member of the Assembly is in any way condoning that behaviour, and I know that there are people with much more benign aims who put up flags and other things, but the fact is that there is a disparity.”
“There is evidence that is quantified year on year by the Northern Ireland life and times survey that flags can produce a chill factor that discourages people from shopping in particular areas. <BR /> <BR />It is an issue of confidence in law and order. How can people have confidence that the Executive are serious about tackling paramilitaries when in many cases their logos fly unmolested from our public property? They are organisations of community control, extortion and drugs, and, if their logos are able to fly, that shows that we are not in any way serious about addressing them. Although I appreciate that it is absolutely not always the case, national flags that do not bear paramilitary logos are often erected by gangs of men, sometimes with their faces obscured, and it is not that cold in South Belfast in May.”
“I commend the people who were involved in local decisions and had the ability to get flags down in certain residential streets in Finaghy. There are slips too, and flags appear each year in places where they had never been before. <BR /> <BR />South Belfast is probably the most diverse, vibrant and participative constituency in Northern Ireland. Our neighbourhoods are home to people of all faiths and none and all political backgrounds. Of course, they are home to many people from new communities. I know that many people opt to live in South Belfast precisely because it is so open and welcoming. This is not just an issue of community relations and preventing what in some cases is identity being used as a weapon; there is an economic issue.”
“I noted these as recently as this summer at locations in South Belfast. At the root of the wider problem is the perception by very many people, me included, that, in a lot of cases, those flags are being used to mark territory, to intimidate and to divide. This is an issue raised with me by literally dozens of people every summer. I know that many of them contact all their elected representatives, so those of you from South Belfast will have heard from them as well. It frustrates me greatly to be able to do nothing. Those of us who are elected to represent people are literally powerless in this matter until there is some regulation. There are patchy improvements, and I am glad to report that flags came down in the very mixed neighbourhood of Rosetta just this weekend.”
“Although I consider them to be in a different category, flags of the Northern Ireland football team and GAA clubs, which have been up and down at various times in South Belfast during the summer, are entirely regulatable. A 2010 Queen's study suggested that sporting and other displays made up approximately 5% of the total of things flying from lamp posts, but, if there is support for these displays, there should be a lawful way for people to apply, setting out the aims and the purpose of the flying. It is not the primary subject of the debate, but, if a set of principles were agreed, they could be applied to, for example, new murals appearing as well. <BR /> <BR />Most acutely problematic — they should not be regulated but obviously immediately removed — is the display of paramilitary flags.”
“I defend the right of anyone to fly a legal flag from their home, provided that it is not in support of an illegal organisation or of violence. There are, of course, separate regulations and guidance for public buildings. <BR /> <BR />In practice, certainly in South Belfast, the issue is primarily related to flags reflecting a unionist or loyalist identity. In a report from Queen's, the ratio is reported as being 13:1. However, in discussing the issue and potential solutions, we will absolutely include all such manifestations of identity, including the hunger strike banners that are being displayed on parts of the Ormeau Road.”
“As it is primarily made up of representatives of political parties in the Assembly, it is fair and interesting to hear from those parties in this debate. <BR /> <BR />The issue of flags sucks up an enormous amount of traditional media and social media time, but, hopefully, we can discuss it here in a way that gives us time to draw out points and that is less fraught than some other discussions. For clarity, by irregular flag flying, I do not mean flags flown from private residences or public buildings.”
“No one is saying that flags are the biggest or most pressing concern for the Assembly to discuss, but, nearly two decades after the establishment of the Assembly, it is an issue that we have to make progress on and remove from the "too difficult" pile, where it is with victims, the past, the 11-plus and a number of other issues. Our party and others, including the Alliance Party, which has a long-standing and honourable position on the issue, have been seeking regulation for several years. If that is not going to come centrally, we need to push for it. <BR /> <BR />A commission on flags and identity has been created, which, after a year, has released the names of its members, but we have yet to hear any news from it.”
“I thank those Members who have taken the time to participate in the debate. It is disappointing and a little bit unusual that there is no Minister in the Chamber today. I appreciate that this is a complex issue and, indeed, could probably have landed in one of three or four Departments. I understand, however, that it was assigned to the Executive Office and that none of the four Ministers is available, despite the normal publication cycle of the Order Paper.”
“Is the Minister aware of the concept of a city deal? By way of context, Glasgow leveraged an extra £1·1 billion of infrastructural funding for their city. Did the concept of a regional city deal for NI come up, and did the Minister support it?”
“Of course we need a robust regulatory framework, but we cannot put all the burden on the licensed premises that are so important to our economy. <BR /> <BR />It is also a societal issue. As I said, we have societal problems with alcohol, which puts enormous pressure on our health service and other public services, and nobody is denying that, but we are here to develop evidence-based policy. There is no evidence that those problems are all coming from the licensed sector; it simply is not there. The Member has shown that pubs opening later does not mean that people will act in negative ways. So, it is right that we use the evidence and make the Bill, now that it has come forward, as strong and as useful as possible.”
“As well as the fact that it is time for our laws to come into the 21st century and reflect how people consume alcohol, this is the Northern Ireland Year of Food and Drink. Discover NI has a big flagship promotion to support our growers, our brewers, our cooks and so on, but we are in ways holding back this sector.”
“I am happy to respond to that. I do not think that anybody here will judge you for having a drink on your holidays. This reinforces my point. It is not the licensing laws that are the issue. In the places where they were celebrating, alcohol was available. It does not have to mean that everybody is going to lose the run of themselves. That is why there is a problem in having a regulatory framework that implies that, if we open the pubs a little later, we will all lose our minds. That is where we can get the balance correct. <BR /> <BR />In summary, this is both an economic and a social issue. The hospitality sector provides 60,000 jobs and over £1 billion to our economy.”
“You assume correctly, and the Member has in no way called for that. I think that that is the point. It is not about absolute liberalisation with 24-hour opening or what we have now. There are very many positions between the antiquated licensing laws that we have and one that is fit for purpose. In fact, there are various bodies of evidence on how that has and has not worked out. I have said that I think people do have a poor relationship with alcohol here, and, as I said, when you are on the Continent, you see that the natives are enjoying a quiet beer at 1.00 am while it is the British and Irish people who are going hell for leather and causing all the trouble. I do not think that it is just the licensing hours; there are other things. We have not at any point called for 24-hour licensing.”
“That was supposed to be about a big pitch to event organisers that Belfast and Northern Ireland are suitable venues for big events, but, as it was on a Sunday, it was lights out and bedtime at midnight. There was no flexibility and no ability for the council to respond to that. It was supposed to be a big sales pitch to a lot of those —”
“The major BBC Good Food Show, which is coming to Belfast next month, cannot operate here the way that it will elsewhere, where people can sample alcohol-related products and buy them to take away. This was flagged up by the industry in January or February, and the show takes place next month, in October. The Executive did not have time to respond. That is an issue where a wee royal prerogative would have come in handy, and I think that people will be frustrated that it is only used to help the Executive and not to help the wider sector. <BR /> <BR />Also, I remember that we had a blip in 2011, when Belfast City Council put on and supported the MTV music awards.”
“I agree with that. As I said, it is an opportunity to show younger people how alcohol can be consumed. There are many more protections that we can give young people than when they are getting together in a bandstand in a park, or wherever. <BR /> <BR />Additional issues that we hope can be incorporated by amendment have been mentioned by others. One is provision for microbreweries. Craft brewing is a growing industry here, and it very much promotes quality over quantity. It is not about firing a whole load of alcohol into you. The legislation in this area needs to be amended to allow breweries to sell the product on their premises or at trade shows. These beers do not have the big networks that others have. If people like them, they cannot say that they will go down to Tesco and buy a whole load of it.”
“Crucially, it will stagger — pardon the pun — reduce and spread out the number of people on the streets at closing time seeking taxis, fast food or whatever, some of which frequently leads to antisocial behaviour. <BR /> <BR />Children's attendance at functions and the related provisions will be explored by colleagues later. This issue has also been well aired recently in the media, and it is very appropriate that we regularise the ways in which premises that sell alcohol can be used, because they do not just sell alcohol. In many cases, they do have a wider social function.”
“Yes, it is nice that there is shutdown time for everybody, but I am very comfortable that this can be accommodated by individual businesses and within the framework of existing labour law. <BR /> <BR />The changes to additional hours are reasonable, but we understand that many licence holders will want a dependable, year-round licensing framework that will assist them with their staff planning and with marketing and so on. Drinking-up time is the key to reducing the antisocial behaviour that we see on our streets in the wee small hours. As the Member outlined, it will discourage people from stockpiling and buying double rounds and so on just before last orders.”
“For many of us, Easter is a time for family, for reflection and for religion, but we cannot tell everybody that they have to sit in their homes and reflect all weekend. It is a bank holiday weekend and many people will find it literally ridiculous that they cannot have a glass of wine with their lunch on a bank holiday Friday. I believe that Hospitality Ulster quantifies the loss to the sector at about £16 million. It is an important tourism weekend as well. People might go home and say that they had a good night out but had to go home at 11.00 pm, which will not encourage them to come back on another weekend. Concerns have been expressed in the media discussions about staff not being able to have that weekend off.”
“I do agree, and I think that it is worrying that we do not have that information. Unfortunately, underage alcohol consumption is visible to any of us when we are out, and I am sure that, as elected representatives, we hear about the negative effects of that and try to mitigate it. It is worrying if we do not have a statistical basis to help us tackle that. Actually, it is about the societal relationship with alcohol and, in fact, we can use licensing control and licensed premises to demonstrate how alcohol can be consumed responsibly. <BR /> <BR />The Minister and others have outlined the provisions of the Bill regarding Easter. It will permit normal opening on the Thursday before Good Friday. We support that, but we support it being enhanced and extended.”
“As such, it is unfair to place almost the entire regulatory burden on venues that account for 20% of consumption, as well as the fact that pubs can be considerably more controlled environments. In a former life, I was a personal licence holder in Lambeth. In England, the licence is attached to the individual and not the pub, and I had to go through a lot of training and licensing exams to be a designated person. There are a lot of burdens on licence holders here and most licence holders and pubs take those very seriously in terms of selling to underage people and intoxicated people. The conditions of the licence are strict and stringent and a lot of that regulation is available in pubs while it is certainly not available in private homes. It is the "below the radar" drinking that we need to —”
“<BR /> <BR />While it held the Social Development Ministry, the SDLP initiated a consultation with a view to reforming licensing and achieved some liberalisation of the licensing of clubs. I note that the Department carried out a public consultation in 2012 and received over 2,500 responses which, I imagine, even though it was four years ago, was reflective of the urgency required by the sector as well as the frustration of many members of the public. <BR /> <BR />As other Members have outlined very thoroughly, it is estimated that approximately one fifth of alcohol consumption is in pubs, with 80% of it taking place in the private homes of individuals or in somebody else's home.”
“We agree very much that many people in this society have a very unhealthy and destructive relationship with alcohol. We believe that this reform can assist with the regulation and control of alcohol to that end and, hopefully, reduce some of the antisocial behaviour associated with binge drinking. We support that as a stated aim of the Bill but we will say that it is absolutely not just down to the licensed premises. It is easy to see that longer drinking hours do not necessarily result in more antisocial behaviour. If you want a case study, you can go and look at almost all of mainland Europe, which has much more liberal licensing laws than we have but does not seem to have the same level of antisocial behaviour — unless people from these islands are over visiting.”
“Hopefully, it will also be a small factor in encouraging our own brightest and best young people to stay here, because people are frustrated that they do not feel that they can use their leisure time as they want to, and would elsewhere.”
“I will try to be brief, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I know that a lot of Members are down to speak, and I do not want you to have to call last orders on me. Nichola Mallon will outline our thinking more fully shortly. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP supports the Bill, because our licensing laws are in dire need of reform. We hope, however, that it will go further by amendment. I commend the Minister for being out of the traps this early in the mandate. It was frustrating for many people that, on this issue, as on several others, we ran out of time before the election. It is good to see some movement. <BR /> <BR />Updating the licensing laws will have a very positive effect on the hospitality sector, which is vital to our wider tourism and economic pitch.”
“Does the Member not find it surprising that the Sinn Féin amendment also deletes the requirement for the First Ministers to give a statement to the Assembly?”
“The motion, with our amendment, charts a course on how we can finally have action and not just talk on this.”
“<BR /> <BR />A memorandum of understanding will be required to ensure full cooperation in the production of papers and the attendance of persons at parliamentary inquiries or commissions of investigation. That is designed to address the specific concerns that Mr O'Dowd correctly raised about people who have potentially dodged or may dodge an investigation. It is a requirement on both Governments, their Departments, their agencies and relevant financial regulatory bodies to cooperate as required. <BR /> <BR />It is not enough just to nod this through, to do the hand-wringing or to call for a weak statement. A statement on the issue should have been made a long time ago. Rightly or wrongly, there is a public perception that the Assembly is at best inert and, at worst, complicit when it comes to getting to the truth of the issue.”
“We have to ensure maximum communication between them. If they are sought, we have to ensure that prosecutions are able to take place in the most suitable jurisdiction and that nobody is able to use the existence of a border to evade justice. <BR /> <BR />A second requirement is for legislation for joint North/South inquiries. We have a draft Bill to amend the flawed Westminster Inquiries Act 2005 to make exactly that provision. We have worked closely with colleagues in Irish Labour, who have drafted complementary legislation amending the Irish Commissions of Investigation Act 2004. That will not entirely fix the framework for this scenario, but it will allow us to future-proof other public confidence issues.”
“They address the explicit cross-border nature of the matter, and if ever there was a North/South issue, it is this. We are trying to bridge the jurisdictional issues for the law enforcement agencies and anybody else with an interest. The situation is that very many of the questions are here in the North but the answers are in the South. The massive loss to the taxpayer has been borne in the South, but we have suffered the reputational damage and the public confidence damage. <BR /> <BR />I will take each of our proposals in turn. We are recommending that there be a joint investigation team between the NCA and an Garda Síochána. Provision exists for joint law enforcement teams under the Criminal Justice (Joint Investigation Teams) Act 2004 in the Republic and should be used. There are investigations open in the UK, the Republic and the US.”
“There is real public concern about political interference from whatever direction and foot-dragging in the running of investigations to date. Of course criminal investigations must be allowed to proceed completely unhindered, but we cannot be expected simply to mark time until that happens without taking steps to repair the reputational damage to this region as an open and transparent place in which to do business. There are numerous precedents — Lawrence, Hillsborough, Hart to name just three — for public and criminal inquiries to run in parallel. Suggesting otherwise could be perceived as another foot-dragging exercise. <BR /> <BR />Our specific proposals are outlined in brief in the text of the amendment, and I will explore them further now.”
“Some useful work was done by the predecessor Committee for Finance and Personnel in the last mandate, but, of course, that has been undermined by allegations of coaching in the inquiry. <BR /> <BR />We in the SDLP welcome the change in approach from the Dublin Government, which previously appeared ambivalent about the legitimate interest of the Assembly in Project Eagle. I hope that they will now give the Assembly its proper place, as I do not think that they did in parts of the last year. The reporting of relevant persons to the standards in public office authorities, as well as the acknowledgement of the content of the C&AG report, are a welcome change in approach. <BR /> <BR />It is the form and remit of the inquiry that we wish to explore in more detail in the debate and through our amendment.”
“That is all very heart-warming, but I would be grateful to hear the deputy First Minister's response and recollection of that conference call and precisely which Ulstermen he wanted stood up for, especially in the light of the fact that, not very long after that reported conversation, PIMCO, probably acutely aware of the consequences of the racketeering provisions of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act in the US, itself scotched the deal, possibly on the basis of the fixer fee to be paid to London lawyers and a few select Ulstermen. <BR /> <BR />For over a year, the Administrations in Belfast and Dublin have effectively adopted a "nothing to see" approach, which has eroded public confidence in the will and ability to cast light on the murky corners of this issue.”
“<BR /> <BR />The deputy First Minister could give us some clarification, too. It is reported in the 'Irish Times' of 17 September that a record exists of a conference call in early January 2014, including the DUP and Sinn Féin, where they were as one in telling Dublin that they jointly supported the PIMCO deal and that Mr McGuinness quipped to the Finance Minister, Minister Noonan;”
“It is a matter of regret that there is an impression that the Assembly is leaving its scrutiny role and efforts that it should be able to undertake to the media. It is also a matter of regret that we are discussing the issue only now and not last week or just after the programme was aired as a Matter of the Day or Question for Urgent Oral Answer. <BR /> <BR />It is further regrettable that the then Minister of Finance, Mr Sammy Wilson, when asked about the issue, chose to shoot the messenger and go with a reflex attack on BBC 'Spotlight'. I do not think that it does him any credit to have referred to the makers of this programme as a bunch of biased bigots and amateurs. That is shooting the messenger and ignoring serious public concerns. I hope that Members opposite can confirm whether that is a corporate view.”
“<BR /> <BR />Project Eagle, the sale of NAMA's Northern loan portfolio, is the biggest property deal in the history of Northern Ireland and has been a cause of concern for considerably over a year, yet there has been very little movement. It has now become clear that the Irish taxpayer has had to bear an enormous loss of about €220 million, which is £180 million. That is by far the biggest loss on any of the NAMA portfolios. There are many questions to be asked about why this portfolio had to be sold as a single lot when others were not and who exactly was driving that sale. Some of those issues are teased out in the C&AG report. <BR /> <BR />I want to turn briefly to the revelations in the BBC 'Spotlight' programme.”
“We will not support the Sinn Féin amendment because we do not feel that it goes far enough. We hope that our amendment includes all the key elements of what it proposes but enhances the detail. At this stage, we feel that we have to start to flesh out the "how" and not just the "why" of the issue. I am not speaking for the Ulster Unionist Party, but, to pick up on your question on whom we seek to hold to account, it is the agency that you mentioned and the Executive as well because there are serious concerns around due diligence in the appointment of people to relevant boards and the fact that there is the impression that people may have used this ministerial approval as licence to tout themselves as fixers.”
“I commend the Ulster Unionist Party for proposing this motion on the first Opposition day of the session and Mr Smith for a very comprehensive outline of the issue. Our amendment is intended to strengthen it, particularly by reflecting new information that has come into the public domain since the motion was tabled. It addresses specifically the North/South dimension and the report of the Irish Comptroller and Auditor General.”