John Stewart
East Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Decisions taken over the next two months will determine whether Northern Ireland has a modern, responsive enterprise service or whether we simply roll forward a model that increasingly struggles to keep pace with the world around it.”
“<BR /> <BR />I understand that significant efforts have been made to bring the Department for the Economy, councils and Enterprise NI around a table to design collaboratively the modernised service for 2027, yet that meeting still has not happened. That is deeply disappointing.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank Enterprise Northern Ireland and note the outstanding work of our local enterprise agencies, which go above and beyond, often in challenging financial circumstances, for our entrepreneurs and businesses.”
“I declare an interest as the chair of the all-party group on micro and small business, but I feel that I must highlight an issue that should concern every Member, regardless of party or constituency.”
“The infrastructure in Larne West is shambolic and fails residents and commuters daily. Minister, you will be aware of an ombudsman's investigation of the missing link road at Ballyloran that reported last February on the back of my office having brought the matter to it.”
“The Bill sends an important message that demonstrates confidence in the governance arrangements that are already in place and in the boards and management teams that have successfully led the organisations for many years.”
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“I thank the Member for her very valid point. We want everybody who has been a victim to apply. At the same time, we do not want those who apply to feel the same burden of trauma as felt by those who have applied up to this point, because the process has not been victim-focused. If we are to ask people to come forward, that point needs to be made. We need to make sure that all the staff and facilities are in place. <BR /> <BR />How long do I have left, Mr Deputy Speaker?”
“Absolutely. I do not know how long I have left.”
“He assured victims and survivors that they are being listened to, and he urged those who had not applied for redress to take part in the application process, take the brave first step and not be put off by any of it.”
“They do not feel that they have any ownership or part in it; they feel completely detached from the process. They are not looking for a sympathetic ear. They are looking for updates and a place to which they can go to get that single response. It would be beneficial if that could be facilitated. <BR /> <BR />The First Minister responded to the debate and said that we needed to take this opportunity to learn the hard lessons of the past and to ensure that it never happens again. I do not think that any of us could disagree with that. It is a shame that we have to learn these lessons, but we must learn them. He wanted to make two big points towards the end of his contribution.”
“They expected to be beyond that by this point, but, unfortunately, we are where we are. Fear and anxiety among victims and survivors over the invasive process is causing great difficulty, and many of them are being put off from applying. That is unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />Gerry Carroll said that the scheme was too long and complicated, and far too legalistic. He said that a solicitor was required to complete it and that, while that may work for some people, it does not work for everybody. That needs to be looked at. That difficulty was a common theme for everybody. He agreed that there was a need for a direct line of support. I thank the Minister for addressing that point and saying that it is being looked at. It is something that I have heard when victims have spoken to me.”
“He went on to say that, at the current pace, it will take up to 10 years for all victims to be heard and that that is not acceptable. He wants a simple process to be ironed out so that victims can be heard more swiftly. <BR /> <BR />During an intervention, Linda Dillon made a valid point that many of those who had suffered abuse were never able to avail themselves of a full education, so it was ridiculous that they be expected to reply in writing, as they all were. She said that that needed to be looked at. <BR /> <BR />Martina Anderson rightly paid tribute to the victims, and she named many of them. We have all heard their horrific testimonies. She said that it is a shame that they have to continue to come back to Committee sessions to give more evidence and re-traumatise themselves through that tenacious battle to get justice.”
“They are reliving it and not being able to feel part of it. She also raised the valid point about the difficulties surrounding evidence being submitted in writing only and gave positive examples from elsewhere of verbal testimonies and how they could be used. <BR /> <BR />Diane Dodds said that the process needed to be fit for purpose, victim-focused and have the confidence of those whom it sought to serve but that it had, unfortunately, failed to meet any of those three asks. Instead of offering redress, the process was re-traumatising victims and survivors. <BR /> <BR />Pat Sheehan paid tribute to the courage of victims and survivors but said that, unfortunately, the current process was not repaying that courage. He said that that was a shame.”
“Ms Dillon also said that there needs to be a single point of contact for victims so that they have ownership in the process throughout. <BR /> <BR />My party colleague Robbie Butler articulated the huge frustrations that are being felt and expressed shame at the delay in victims receiving redress since Sir Anthony Hart's report over 1,300 days ago. He said that we need a common purpose and joint approach to fix that urgently. Again, that was echoed across the Chamber. He also said that there is an onus on the religious and other organisations that have been found at fault to find funds and support victims throughout the process. <BR /> <BR />Paula Bradshaw talked about the hurt that is caused by having no direct line. Again, that point was made by others. It means that it is a hurtful and traumatising experience for victims.”
“Christopher Stalford started the debate by saying that there is a moral obligation towards victims and that the state has an obligation to redress and to offer justice to them. He said that the process must be victim-centred and that it needs to be shaped by victims. That should be seen going forward. He also said that the review is a best practice review and that the process needs to be gentle, caring and non-invasive, and one in which everyone needs to be treated equally and fairly. <BR /> <BR />Linda Dillon said that there is nothing historical about the abuse for the victims who live it every day. She said that the process must be centred and focused on victims and that a review needs to be short and sharp and cannot delay any redress to victims. That point was echoed throughout the debate.”
“An all-encompassing review has the potential to examine those things in the round. The Committee stands ready to assist any review in its work and to ensure that any recommendations are implemented. <BR /> <BR />I thank Members for their support for the motion and particularly for bringing their perspectives to the debate. The issue is not confined to what one Committee has heard. It has resonance in all our constituencies through the victims who regularly speak to us. I also acknowledge the concerns that have been raised. Members can rest assured that the Committee will be observing how such a review will be implemented. <BR /> <BR />I will now refer to some of the remarks that were made by Members.”
“We need to get it right for those who are going through the redress process, for those who will go through it and so that we can learn for future processes of redress should those ever, unfortunately, be necessary. <BR /> <BR />As the Chair outlined in his opening speech, we have an opportunity to take a good look at the redress process, acknowledge what is working and change what is not working for survivors. When the process was designed, the promise was that it would be survivor-centred. The evidence that the Committee has heard to date, which has been repeated in the Chamber today, is that it is not. That has to be investigated. The original consultation on the redress process received views that it should not be a judicial process, but it is. That needs to be looked at.”
“On behalf of the Committee for the Executive Office, I will make a winding-up speech on this important motion, which seeks to review the redress process for survivors of historical institutional abuse. <BR /> <BR />I thank the First Minister for coming and responding to some of the remarks made by Members. I thank everyone who contributed to the debate. It is fair to say that we speak with one voice on the matter of offering full redress and justice to the victims of institutional abuse. I also thank all those who provided evidence to the Committee, sad though it is that they had to do so. Theirs was often very challenging and emotional evidence. I echo the tributes paid by many Members to the bravery and tenacity of victims and survivors in seeking justice in this matter.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement and declare an interest as a member of the all-party group on social enterprise. This is something that we have been calling for for some time, and it is a good-news story in that respect. I agree with other Members: I would like to see the policy extended to arm's-length bodies and councils and to see training for the small businesses that can avail themselves of this. Will it be extended within the next two years? Will people be able to avail themselves of 100%, or will it be capped at 20% by 2034?”
“I agree that the exception is wrong. Does the junior Minister also accept that the petition of concern, which was used in 2016 to block the changes, was also wrong? Successive First Ministers and Education Ministers have said that the exception is wrong. Who is blocking it?”
“Does he agree that we have struck a balance now, thanks to the Committee's great work and the research that it did?”
“I cannot stop laughing over here. I thank the Member for giving way. I really enjoy the passion with which he speaks on this subject and so many more. I totally agree with so much that he has said. I cannot believe for a second that he would ever have knocked on the door or let anyone do so, but, to keep that image going, it feels as though we are probably in for a lock-in tonight. <BR /> <BR />Does he agree that, given the pride and passion with which entrepreneurs and brewers from Northern Ireland produce their wares, it has been a shame that, up to now, so many have been selling so much more outside Northern Ireland than in Northern Ireland because of the restrictive rules. There are concerns in the wet-pub industry, however, that that will have an impact on the trade.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I appreciate that the issue is not directly within his remit, but it ultimately affects the Department over which he has powers. He will know that the issue has been in the news through recent motions and that the parties opposite blocked an Ulster Unionist legislative amendment to remove the teacher exemption in 2016. His predecessor said that, when he was Minister, he wrote to TEO to get the exemption removed, and, last month, the First Minister said that she was not blocking it, which de facto meant that the Executive Office was not blocking it. Will the Minister give us his best guess as to what is holding it up and why it is taking so long to overcome?”
“I am chancing my arm because I think that you are about to finish. I will use 30 seconds of your time to get in a point that I was going to make earlier, so please indulge me. Does the Member agree that the plan by the EA not to replace traffic patrol people outside our schools, particularly those with dual carriageways outside them and even those in rural communities, is dangerous and is not in the interests of pupil safety? We have to be rightly obsessed with pupil safety inside and outside school. Given that there are more cars on the roads now than ever before, surely now is the time to invest in safety in getting to school as well as safety inside it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, in my last 30 seconds, if you will indulge me, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I have a real fear about the loss of our traffic patrolmen and women. There have never been more cars on the roads, yet every school is being told that, if their patrol person retires or, sadly, passes away, they will not be replaced. We had that at the Model Primary School with the tragic death of its patrol person last year.”
“Maybe we can look at that collectively. I do not know whether that can be done. As I said, maybe it is pie in the sky, but it was just a thought. <BR /> <BR />In my last minute, I want to comment on a couple of points. A number of rural schools have been added to the latest round of area planning, which, in my opinion, is a euphemism for earmarked for closure. It would not be right to mention particular schools. Those governors and staff are working tirelessly, and they fear becoming victims of death by a thousand cuts, Minister. It is really sad to see that. They provide a vital service in the rural community and should be given every opportunity to continue doing that. They should, at least, be kept informed, rather than having this year-on-year uncertainty.”
“Aside from those two schemes, there have been other projects in recent years. Woodburn Primary School has been a roaring success and a really good asset, and its numbers are up because of that. When I visited recently, all the pupils and staff were overjoyed by the standard of their new building, so we thank the Minister for getting that completed. The same applies to Acorn Integrated Primary School. <BR /> <BR />I have some concerns. Recently, the Antiville Primary School and St Comgall's College sites were sold off. Local taxpayers had put money into those schools. In future, when schools are closed and the land sold off, it would be nice if that money could be reinvested in the local school estate. In that case, it went to building houses. Maybe that could be looked at. I do not know whether that is pie in the sky thinking.”
“Even getting certainty that it will be located there would mean that we could start to build the infrastructure around it so that shared facilities at least could be developed while we wait for the new build. With every piece of strength that I have, I urge that we at least try to give certainty as quickly as possible to the pupils, parents and staff at Carrickfergus Academy. <BR /> <BR />I referred to other schemes that have gone well. The rebuild at Corran Integrated Primary School and Nursery in Larne was announced in 2013 and has long since been built. It is up and running, and hats off again to the staff there. However, the focus goes back to the other schools that are still waiting. There is a disparity that I can never get my head around.”
“What is the result if you multiply that by what could be 10 or 12 years or however long they have to wait? The uncertainty of it all has an impact. We should at least know where the site is, but that has not even been confirmed yet. There has been a nudge and a wink that it will remain where it is, but that has not even been confirmed. <BR /> <BR />Because of that, Carrickfergus Grammar School, which I left in 2000, is still waiting for new sports facilities, as Mr Lyons mentioned. We do not know whether we can invest in the site itself broadly enough to share across two school sites because we do not know whether, in the long term, the new school at Carrickfergus Academy is going to be there.”
“Thank you for that. Absolutely. Given the way that things are going, maybe because there is a changing strategy for education and the prioritisation of sites, more schools will be asked to look at mergers. They will certainly think twice if the experience of Carrickfergus Academy and the schools that formed it is anything to go by. I fear that there are pupils in that school, now in year 8, who will not see that site. If the experience of Islandmagee Primary School is anything to go by, their kids may not see the site. <BR /> <BR />It costs money, teaching hours and logistics. The entire weight of effort to transfer between those two schools — it is two and a half miles — means that hundreds of teaching hours are lost every single year.”
“When the vote on it took place, the governors and the parents were carried on the momentum that there would be a new school very quickly.”
“The kids of the pupils from that time are about to start school, and it is still not complete. We take our hat off to Arlene Cambridge and all the staff at Islandmagee Primary School for their tenacity. It will come about eventually, and we look forward to the first brick being laid and to the school being complete. It is very frustrating that that has not happened yet and that so much time has gone by. <BR /> <BR />When you compare that with other sites where things have gone quite quickly, you find that there is often no excuse for things not happening. To go back to my original point about Carrickfergus Academy, I fear that that is where we could end up. The whole idea of that amalgamation was predicated on the notion that it would be prioritised for a new build.”
“The pupils are smiling, even though things are not easy and it has been a difficult year. My hat goes off to each and every one of them for the amazing work that they have done. <BR /> <BR />We have proved that we have been able to work together as MLAs. Mr Lyons referred to a number of examples of that. I can think of a letter that I put together, which was sent to the then permanent secretary, Derek Baker, on behalf of all our colleagues in East Antrim, about the delays at Islandmagee Primary School. The discussion on that has been well rehearsed, but, for the record, I will make the point again that I was speaking to a former pupil who is about to finish a master's and was in primary 1 when that amalgamation happened. It is hard to believe that the school has had to wait for 20-odd years.”
“I know that the situation is the same across the entire school estate in Northern Ireland and that money does not grow on trees, but we are here to discuss schools in East Antrim, and it would be remiss of us not to bang the drum on their behalf. <BR /> <BR />This has been a hugely difficult year. I am a governor on the boards of two schools, Silverstream Primary School and Nursery Unit, and Woodlawn Primary School, and I am also a trustee of Carrickfergus Model Primary School. When I drop my son off there every day or when I visit as a governor, I know about the staff's workload, their passion and the difficult circumstances that they have operated in over the last year. However, that has not deterred them one bit, and they have cracked on and got the job done.”
“Our pupils and parents in Carrickfergus and Larne and across East Antrim are spoilt with the quality of education that is provided by our amazing schools, our teachers and our principals. That is without doubt. When anyone comes to me saying that they have been turned down for their first choice, I have no hesitation referring them to another school in the area because I know that the quality of education is fantastic. However, it always falls down with the infrastructure and the quality of the facilities that are provided. We could wax lyrical today about the list of issues in many schools in East Antrim.”
“I echo the comments about our colleague David Hilditch. It is hard to believe that it is 10 years since I was elected to Carrickfergus Borough Council: I enjoyed serving with him there and I have enjoyed serving with him here. We all wish him well in his recovery. <BR /> <BR />I thank Mr Lyons for securing this topic for the adjournment debate. I think that this is my first adjournment debate in the House since we came back, so it is quite novel to take part in it. However, it is on such an important topic.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I, too, pay tribute to Arlene Cambridge for the work that she has done. <BR /> <BR />I was speaking to a pupil who was in primary 1 when the merger went through who has now graduated from university. That is the length of time that we are talking about. My fear — I am sure that it also that of the Member — is that the pupils at Carrickfergus Academy might well see something similar. I fear that no one who is at that school will see a single new school site come to fruition. Does the Member share those fears?”
“The Minister's statement mentioned the New Decade, New Approach commitments on infrastructure investment, but several NDNA schemes are unfunded. Will the Minister acknowledge that, if she prioritises unfunded NDNA projects over road safety improvements, maintenance and resurfacing, it could come at the cost of increasing the number of potholes and compromising the safety of citizens?”
“I take the opportunity to thank the First Minister for her many years of dedicated public service and wish her and her family well for the next steps. <BR /> <BR />I thank the junior Minister for his answer. Does he agree that there is not and has never been any justification for the existence of paramilitary terrorist activity? Given the recent attacks, particularly on off-duty police officers, especially in my constituency of East Antrim, does he agree that the security forces should be given all the power that they require to take those organisations off our streets? Will he also assure the public that the policy of paying off paramilitaries will cease forthwith?”
“We must protect the conversations between Church leaders and members of their flock. This should not be a fight between faith and non-faith; rather, it should be about protecting the freedoms of the LGBT community and stopping those who abuse their power. <BR /> <BR />This is not just not a motion. It may be non-binding, given that it has no legislative framework at this stage, but it will deliver a strong vote, hopefully of unanimity, that will be a powerful signal to the LGBTQ+ community, their families and their allies that we are willing to do what is needed to protect them against these awful, coercive practices. I commend the motion to the House and urge you all to support it.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. With respect, Jim, you had your chance to speak. Everyone else has had their chance to speak, and now it is my chance to speak. <BR /> <BR />There is a misconception that banning conversion therapy somehow impinges on the practice of religion. In my opinion, it does not. My colleague Doug Beattie has actively sought to allay the concerns of those inside and outside the House that a ban on conversion therapy could lead to the criminalisation or sanctioning of religious leaders in the routine work of pastoral care, prayer or spiritual guidance. It will not, and any form of legislation should reflect that. Religious freedom is fundamental, but so too is people's freedom and right to live their life free from intolerance and identity-based violence and abuse.”
“<BR /> <BR />Despite all major counselling and psychotherapy bodies in the UK, the Royal College of General Practitioners, the NHS and hundreds of charities and health bodies around the world condemning LGBT conversion therapy, it is still legal, and LGBT individuals in the UK are still exposed to that psychological, physical and emotional abuse to this day. In 2017, the Church of England also passed a motion condemning such practices and called on the UK Government to ban them. That call has now been echoed by over 370 religious leaders and organisations worldwide, and that is growing by the day. <BR /> <BR />I want to finish by saying that there is a misconception that a ban on conversion therapy somehow impinges on the practice of religion: it does not.”
“Conversion therapy causes severe physical and psychological suffering, violates the human rights of the LGBT community and is, for good reason, considered by some to be a form of torture. The testimonies of many people who have been through those forms of treatment are often stark and unsettling. There is strong evidence of the harm that conversion therapy inflicts. More than half of those who have gone through it report mental health issues, including breakdowns, eating disorders, substance abuse, suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts. Evidence also suggests that it is being inflicted mainly but not only on vulnerable LGBT teenagers. We must treat the term "therapy" with the contempt that it deserves. We must be clear: it is not a therapy. It is a pseudo-psychiatric 21st-century snake oil, nothing more.”
“Rather than the offer of re-enforcement through love, compassion, tolerance and understanding, the offer of LGBT conversion therapy is the very antithesis of that. Our LGBTQ people are not sick, so they do not need a cure; our LGBT people are not broken, so they do not need fixed. Changing people's sexual orientation is scientifically impossible. LGBT people are who they are in the way that we all are who we are; it is what we are. If anybody has a problem with that, I am sorry, but that is their problem; it is not the problem of members of the LGBT community. <BR /> <BR />Many of the Members who spoke today have set out with passion, emotion and clarity the barbarity of conversion therapy, a sad and widespread coercive practice that seeks to erase, repress, cure or change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity.”
“With respect, Jim, I will happily chat to you any time, but the last four or five Members have not given way to you,. <BR /> <BR />As I say, I thank everyone for that. <BR /> <BR />What an amazing age we live in. Recent years have seen unbelievable advances in our thinking and in our society. We have seen huge progress in technology and in our ability to communicate across the globe. In many ways, this is an age that would have been unrecognisable 30 or 40 years ago. Paradoxically, though, it is an age when some in our society cling to a nonsensical belief that they can convert or cure gays. Can we just take a moment to reflect on how primitive that concept really is? It is cruel; it is outdated; and it is a hangover from a darker time when to be LGBT was to be flawed or inadequate and in need of being fixed.”
“Jim, please. I am just carrying on with my speech.”
“It was not just members of the LGBTQ+ community but their families, friends and allies.”
“I will carry on. You will have plenty of chances. <BR /> <BR />We seek a ban on harm being caused. I thank everyone today for what, for the most part, has been a well-natured debate. I think that we can all agree on that. Many have spoken with compassion and empathy about this truly emotive subject. I also thank the many thousands of people from across the country who have emailed as part of the Ban Conversion Therapy campaign to lobby their MLAs. I would say that that has happened on both sides of the argument but particularly as part of that campaign.”
“I have 11 minutes of a speech and 10 minutes in which to give it, Jim. I do not get an extension.”
“I am not giving way, Jim. The motion does not inhibit those rights.”
“We, as a party, stand by the rights of ministers and people of faith to give pastoral care and religious guidance and to offer prayer to those who seek it.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity today, on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, to wind on this important motion. I thank my party colleague Doug Beattie for moving it. <BR /> <BR />I will address at the outset the issue of the DUP amendment. The Ulster Unionist Party will not be supporting that amendment to the motion, as my party colleague stated, because of its omission of the following important phrase:”
“Can the Minister assure the House and those sectors that financial support will be there and will continue, even when they open in a partial way, to support them through this?”
“The sectors last to open will be hospitality, including the wedding sector, and tourism. They have been most affected throughout this.”
“I thank the First Minister for her answer. I am exasperated by just how long this is taking. The only employment in Northern Ireland that does not operate under fair employment laws is teaching. Colleagues of mine have been highlighting the issue for many years, and it has been batted back and forth between the Executive Office and Education Ministers. How can we even begin to move towards a shared and single education system when it is perfectly legal to discriminate against a teacher on the basis of their background? First Minister, where is the blockage to change? Is it coming from the Department of Education, vested interests, the Churches or teaching unions? Who is against equality?”
“I agree with him and others in calling on the Financial Conduct Authority to step in and put measures in place to prevent these increased charges. <BR /> <BR />Given the way that Visa and MasterCard are getting on here, it is no surprise that their share price has increased threefold in the past five years. They are colossal wrath-of-God financial institutions in their size and scale, and that share price increased threefold in five years with caps on their fees, yet they are looking to increase by 400% or 500%. It is completely unacceptable, and it will be passed on to consumers because of the pressures that businesses are facing. I hope that a message from this House can be sent to Westminster and that something can be done there. Deputy Speaker, I am not going to take the rest of my time.”