Martin Whitfield
Scottish Labour · Scotland
“To ask the Scottish Government, regarding any impact on its energy policy and strategy, and in light of reports that Torness nuclear power station is due to close by 2030, what its response is to the United Kingdom Government’s new fusion strategy, which aims to deliver thousands of jobs and long-term energy security. (S6O-05690)”
“I ask members to note my entry in the members’ register of interests. As we come to the conclusion of today’s debate, I rise to offer the full support of Scottish Labour for the Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill.”
“The last few motions before us today are the final motions from the committee designed to put the standing orders book in its best possible state for the next session. The first motion, regarding the sixth report, relates to cross-party groups. We have had some challenges this session with the compliance of cross-party groups.”
“Last year’s fostering and adoption statistics show that children who are going through the adoption system face significant delays, with some waiting for six months or longer.”
“I will dwell on the comments he made as convener of the Education, Children and Young People Committee, because it is a tribute to him that he saw, in that committee, the ability to fulfil a role that is crucial for committees in a unicameral Parliament.”
“The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S6M-21167, in the name of Graeme Dey, on a motion on legislative consent for the Armed Forces Bill, which is UK legislation, be agreed to.”
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“I would be more than happy to write to Mr Whitfield with a fuller response on his specific points.”
“Throughout the pandemic, issues were raised by the Children’s Parliament, the Scottish Youth Parliament, YouthLink Scotland and YoungScot that consistently indicated that children and young people were concerned about their own health and wellbeing and that of others around them. That is important. More broadly, the member made a point about opting out. As I understand it, parents were communicated with about the responsibilities of local authorities and, if parents gave their consent, a young person could opt out. They were not forced to do this; they were able to opt out. I see that Mr Whitfield is shaking his head at me. I am more than happy to write to him on the issue. I have paused that data collection for the reasons that have been rehearsed by Ms Gallacher, and I am meeting the chief statistician this evening.”
“There is a disparity of power between a young person in a class and their teacher if they are invited to complete something. I heard what the cabinet secretary said, and I welcome the suspension of any further work on this, but can she answer the question about how an opt-out consent was the recommended way to obtain consent from children in relation to the data that was collected in 2021-22? Jenny Gilruth: The member raises some important points. In the initial part of his question, he made a point about the views of children and young people, which are hugely important. The health and wellbeing census helps us to respond to issues that children and young people are concerned about.”
“There is great concern about this, principally from a data point of view. The assertion that individuals cannot be identified is disputed by those who say that there is other information in the public domain and that, if the data is matched together, we can identify children, particularly in small schools. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child categorically states that children have a right to have their opinions heard and taken seriously. The Information Commissioner’s Office categorically states that opt-out consent is not consent: consent must be opt-in. The Scottish Government requested the data and the local authorities took the census and fed it into schools, where teachers then requested that young people and children complete it.”
“We are failing on the poverty-related attainment gap, failing to fund local government and failing to meaningfully reform education. There is a very old saying: poverty is the thief of dreams. Given that legislation says that we must address the issue, the question for the Government and the Parliament is, how long are we going to allow that thief to steal from our young people? 16:38”
“It means having excellent and available early years provision, where skilled practitioners are resourced to provide early intervention—we have talked about how important that is. There is no better example than the fact that that is encompassed in the UNCRC (Incorporation) (Scotland) Act 2024, which sets out the expectation that young people and children can have of the Government, this Parliament and local authorities—of emanations of the state. We are being challenged on one of the most basic human rights that our young people have. The Government has a very challenging record on child poverty. The child homelessness figures and the number of children in temporary accommodation have hit record highs, which is shameful. We are failing to deliver on the issue and sort it.”
“We agree that education is an incredible tool to lift people out of poverty in the long term, but what is more important today is for each child to be able to participate well in school and wider education without suffering the adverse impacts that poverty places on them. That means having parents who are in well-paid work and who support them so that they do not go to school hungry, and having community centres and youth groups where they can go after school to continue to be safe and supported. It means having an education system that supports young people to achieve, regardless of their background, where they are measured by that achievement, from their point of view.”
“If children do not have shelter, they are not going to learn. As Karen Adam rightly said, children might go to school to seek safety, security, warmth and food. Our schools have a bigger responsibility towards our young people, but if only schools can provide such support, we are in a desperately dangerous position. There are a number of contributions that I wanted to pick up on, because there has been a lot said in the debate, from Ross Greer’s thoughtful opening speech about mitigating circumstances to Willie Rennie’s decision to take the debate forward after that—almost as if they were working in unison. However, given the time left, I will pick up a few important points.”
“To pick up on what Miles Briggs said about the need for flexible childcare, it is important that we look at whether support in the pre-school period works for both the child and the family, who frequently face challenges. Although I understand that the cabinet secretary may not want to go there, I welcome, in passing, the multiyear funding that has been announced with regard to the Family Fund. On the flipside of that, two other pieces of news arrived today. First, there is the very challenging “Oversight Board for the Promise: report THREE February 2025”, which I assume the Government will be making a statement about in the near future. I do not expect the cabinet secretary to go there now, but we are a long way from where we need to be. Secondly, the housing statistics were raised today, initially by Jeremy Balfour in an intervention.”
“We have talked about the need to widen the free school meals programme and the consensual approach that is being sought on that. There are a significant number of areas in which we agree, but to pick up on Alex Rowley’s contribution, the approach must involve partnership and working with the UK Government, Scottish Government, local authorities, our communities and the third sector and charities that are doing so much, because the solution is not going to be the same all around the country. The solution in our rural areas is very different from that in the central belt and, depending on the area, solutions will be different even within our cities.”
“I echo many other members in my thanks to teachers, education staff and, indeed, parents, for the work that they do to provide support for our young people and children. One of the things that we need to address is the expectation on schools. It is important that we consider whether they are filling a gap created by the absence of services and support in other areas. The cabinet secretary and many other members highlighted the Save the Children briefing for the debate. I echo my thanks to the charity, because it has highlighted something that we are aware of, but do not trumpet enough. The evidence is absolutely clear that we need to do more to ensure that children from poorer backgrounds are not behind from day 1, which a number of contributions have highlighted.”
“This has genuinely been a fascinating debate. I welcome the cabinet secretary’s remarks in her opening speech about the consensual nature of debate that she was seeking. I will absolutely join her on any trip to a school. Of course, that reminds me, as it possibly reminds her, of our entries in the register of members’ interests relating to our former profession. The debate has highlighted how poverty affects children, and the responsibility of schools to challenge that. I am grateful to the members who took interventions. I want to return to the hierarchy of needs: I think that our schools are being expected to fulfil needs in much lower sections of that pyramid than previously.”
“I welcome our Scottish Green colleagues’ support for our further expansion of free school meals via an additional test of change programme, which is supported by £3 million of investment, to those in receipt of the Scottish child payment in S1 to S3. We are also investing £3 million to establish a bright start breakfast fund, which children’s charities have welcomed. I am keen to assure my Green colleagues that we will continue to work with them on school uniform guidance, which we previously worked with them on. I know that the guidance is having an impact in our schools and helping to drive down costs that are associated with school uniform. I commit to working further with our Scottish Green partner colleagues, and in particular Ross Greer, on the statutory guidance and how it is being developed with our schools.”
“The Government’s budget, which passed stage 1 yesterday, prioritises further investment in Scotland’s children. For example, the budget provides for an extra £37 million to deliver on the expansion of free school meals for those in receipt of the Scottish child payment in primaries 6 and 7. All pupils in primaries 1 to 5, all children in special schools and eligible pupils in primary 6 up to secondary 6 already benefit from free school meals, which save families £400 per child per year on average. We are also the only part of the United Kingdom to provide extra support to local authorities during the school holidays, which is worth just over £21 million and is a unique investment that we will seek to continue to support.”
“Since 2009-10, under this Government, the overall poverty-related attainment gap for young people who are leaving school and going on to a positive destination has reduced by 60 per cent, which is welcome news. However, let me be clear that we have much more to do to close the gap. We have had a global pandemic and a cost of living crisis, but we remain absolutely committed to closing the poverty-related attainment gap, and we continue to make progress. It is worth reflecting that up to 3,000 additional staff all over the country are now employed thanks to direct investment from the Scottish attainment challenge programme. As the headteacher at Fair Isle primary pointed out to me this morning, those extra staff are making a significant difference in our schools. Presiding Officer, I am conscious of the time.”
“PEF is now firmly embedded in our schools and, as I have previously said in committee, my strongly held view is that it should remain beyond this parliamentary session as a catalyst for improvement in areas in which it is needed most. It remains the case that the purpose of this extra funding is to drive educational improvement. The achievement of curriculum for excellence levels— also known as ACEL—data from December shows that our schools have the highest levels of literacy on record and the smallest poverty-related attainment gap to date. That assures me that pupils are benefiting from the support of their teachers and other staff throughout their primary and early secondary education.”
“I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for taking an intervention. Does she know when the Scottish Government will be in a position to publish the analysis of PEF’s value? There has been a lack of information on the effect of PEF across Scotland. Jenny Gilruth: I outlined that we will be sharing the learning in spring, so we would seek to publish the data at that time. I invite the member, and members across the chamber, to join me on one of the school visits that my officials and I have planned across the country to speak to pupils, staff and those who work in the third sector about the funding’s impact, which has transformed the type of spend that happens in our schools.”
“Neil Gray: In the interests of brevity, I will simply say that Martin Whitfield points to a range of successful interventions that have made a real difference in children’s lives and in their ability to interact at school. The Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health, education colleagues or I would be more than happy to have that discussion on a cross-party basis. Access to Banking Services (Branch Closures) 2.”
“The cabinet secretary is aware of the see4school programme, which gives an orthoptic vision test for preschoolers between the ages of four and five—indeed, he has just made reference to it. There is also the very successful national dental inspection programme that operates between primary 1 and primary 7. Those programmes highlight potential challenges that young children face and act as an interface with the school to assist with children’s health as well as their education. Would the cabinet secretary be willing to meet members from all parties to discuss the ophthalmic research and the dental research to see how there can be better linkages between the health and the education needs of children?”
“To offer Mr Whitfield further reassurance, my officials will utilise their regular engagement with the families federations to ensure that our understanding of what is happening is consistent with the lived experience of serving families in Scotland, whether that relates to mental health services or anything else. I will be happy to update him on that work.”
“It is our intention and expectation that armed forces family members should retain their relative places on waiting lists when they relocate within Scotland and from elsewhere in the United Kingdom. My officials have been working with partners, and with Scottish Government mental health leads, for example, to further understand why that might not be happening, as well as the scale of the problem, which is just as important. That will enable us to work with health boards to resolve any issues and with our service family stakeholders to manage expectations where that is appropriate.”
“Martin Whitfield: I am grateful to the minister for that answer, particularly for his mention of the unique challenges that forces children face. I have been approached by a constituent, who was occasioned to have to move address and general practice surgery—within the same health authority—only to discover that she had lost her place in the waiting list for treatment. I was given to understand that that would not happen. Will the minister comment on that situation and on what is being done to ensure that our forces children get the treatment that they deserve, when they deserve it, irrespective of where they are moved to, which is outwith their control? Graeme Dey: I welcome Martin Whitfield’s on- going interest in the subject, which I think he raised with me in the veterans debate that was held late last year.”
“To ask the Scottish Government when it last met Forces Children Scotland. (S6O-04277) The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey): The Minister for Children and Young People met Forces Children Scotland and a group of children and young people from armed forces families on 24 September. For my part, as Minister for Veterans, I recognise the important work that Forces Children Scotland does to support children and young people from families of serving personnel, reservists and veterans to reach their potential and thrive. That includes the work that Forces Children Scotland does collaboratively across sectors to drive improvements in support that reflect the unique challenges that those children and young people face.”
“I wish that such a substantive amendment had been lodged earlier, at stage 2, so that we could have worked with not just all stakeholders but all parties in order to achieve what we all want to achieve, which is an effective ban on electric shock collars and other harmful devices.”
“Given that we are talking about a code of practice for the acquisition of a dog, I am not clear as to how Mr Golden thinks that the dog coming into contact with an electric fence—for example, when it is on a walk—would somehow result in any ambiguity. I am interested to hear why he believes that that is the case. Maurice Golden: Some people would use an electric fence to ensure that the dog is contained, particularly in rural settings. I agree that a physical fence would be preferable in such rural surroundings, but, for some people, an electric fence is a very useful way of ensuring that the dog does not run away. The wording of amendment 18 causes a bit of confusion.”
“In my view, that could lead to a series of unintended consequences around the use of electric fences, not just for dogs but for a host of other— Ross Greer: I am grateful to Mr Golden for his contribution and for the points that he is making, but I want to clarify a point. The final part of amendment 18 says: “any device which applies an electric current to the dog’s skin”. However, in full, the amendment says: “whether the acquirer is committed to preventing unnecessary suffering and ensuring the welfare of the dog (for example, by not using any device which applies an electric current to the dog’s skin)”.”
“Maurice Golden talked about the opportunity for amendments 17 and 18 to create a talking point. Do they not also offer the opportunity, as Ross Greer outlined, for an undertaking from the Government that we will see something before the end of the session? Maurice Golden: Via legislation, we will see something by 1 April, so we will not have to wait for the end of the parliamentary session. Obviously, we are yet to hear from the minister. Amendment 18 refers to “any device which applies an electric current to the dog’s skin”. I appreciate the intention for that to mean electric dog collars, but it could apply to electric fences.”
“Accountability starts with acceptance, but it cannot end there. The report is damning about systemic failings, and they will require systemic improvement. I am conscious that the families have had enough of condolences, regret and politicians like me greetin and wringing our hands. We need to put our shoulders to the wheel, collectively, and ensure that, as others have said, today is the turning point.”
“The powerful report on these tragic events is speaking truth to power. I welcome the statement, and also the tone and approach that the cabinet secretary has taken. The deaths of those young people should not have happened. I invite the cabinet secretary to reaffirm her and the Scottish Government’s absolute commitment to implementing the proposals that were set out in the statement, irrespective of unseen events and as swiftly as possible. Angela Constance: The 419 pages of the fatal accident inquiry determinations certainly are, to use the old Quaker phrase, speaking truth to power. In short, my message to the families and to people across Scotland is that accountability starts with me. I have the same expectations of myself, my officials and my colleagues in Government as I do of those in senior leadership roles and on the front line.”
“For some children, if reform is not urgent, they will be denied their right to an education that develops them to their fullest potential for their entire school experience.” 15:49”
“It is necessary for them to be there not only when the decisions are being made or when the talks are being given; their involvement should not be seen as a one-off. If we involve our children and young people in the solutions, they can express the experiences that they are having—they can tell us what it is like. They can also suggest the answers. That may respond to the example of P7s putting their hands up to say, “I don’t want my phone taken off me” and the idea that we should perhaps think about that. The journey of that discussion will enlighten young people: it will be about pedagogy and being with them when they learn something. The UNCRC is in place for a very good reason. I will finish with a very short quote from the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland: “Children and young people are yet to feel change.”
“We are now at a point where the situation is not just about violence in schools but about violence that is deliberately being stirred up and perpetrated against certain groups. That needs to be addressed. Some solutions have been put forward, but much more work needs to be done. In the short time that I have, I wish to capture an important element that was raised by Bill Kidd, on articles 12 and 13 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Sitting within the convention is one of the solutions that the Government, and others in elected bodies such as local authorities and in schools, could take much further: involving our children and young people in determining what the solutions are.”
“One of the things that gets missed— and this speaks to Ross Greer’s concern about children being blamed for the violence that takes place—is the issue of whether there is a loss of childhood now. The childhood that our young people are going through now is very different from the childhood that almost everybody sitting in the chamber went through. We talk about the algorithms that show us things on our social media, which are very different from those that are shown to our young people. Who is looking to capture that data? Who is getting under the bonnet to see what our young people are being exposed to? I am pleased that so many members, including Pam Gosal, Pam Duncan-Glancy and Ross Greer, raised the question of violence against women and girls.”
“We have heard evidence that there are cases where schools and individual teachers, for a variety of reasons, some of which have merit, have chosen not to report violent acts or to report them in a different way, so as to preserve the reputations of others. The call in the motion for a better discussion about what data is collected and how it is collected is important, although I am concerned about kicking that down the road to another task force. We know what the data is; the challenge is in how the Government can collect it and how it can ensure that it is robust. I was very much impacted by Roz McCall’s speech in which she talked about the importance of childhood.”
“I hear your suggestion, Deputy Presiding Officer. I draw attention to my entry in the register of members’ interests, as a former teacher. This has been a fascinating debate, and I had a beautifully prepared speech for it, but I want to move away from that, because of what we have heard this afternoon. As George Adam highlighted in opening his speech, the wideness of the motion has allowed people to speak about anything in relation to education—and members have done that. That is important, as the debate has been a nuanced one, with a lot of causes, some solutions and a lot of questions that still need to be answered, in particular in relation to data.”
“Amendment 12, in the name of Pauline McNeill, is grouped with amendments 13 to 18, 24, 19 to 23 and 25 to 27.”
“On Sharon Dowey’s amendment 4, I hope that it is helpful to add that it is important that the chief constable has an obligation to consult and hear the representations of the bodies and organisations that have a role in representing people with lived experience. In many ways, that is quite separate from the complaints process. I hope that that is helpful. To conclude, I urge the Parliament to support the amendments in group 1. 15:00 The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Katy Clark to wind up and say whether she wishes to press or withdraw amendment 10. Katy Clark: I press amendment 10. Amendment 10 agreed to. Amendment 11 moved—[Katy Clark]—and agreed to. Amendment 4 moved—[Sharon Dowey]—and agreed to. Section 3A—Vetting code of practice The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 2 is on vetting.”
“With regard to amendment 11, is it envisaged that only representations from people whose complaint has completed the complaints process would be considered by the chief constable or would it include representations from people whose complaint is still under way? Angela Constance: I will clarify the purpose of amendment 11. It relates to the revised code of ethics that must be laid before the Parliament. The purpose of Ms Clark’s amendment is to summarise any representations made during the consultation on the code of ethics and to put on record the reasons for any such representations not resulting in changes.”
“Perhaps the answer lies in the 2018 Scottish Government-published report on the consultation exercise that looked at updating the School Premises (General Requirements and Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1967, which included the requirement to look at ASN provision. What has happened to that legislation since 2018? Jenny Gilruth: I thank Mr Whitfield for his interest in the issue. Consultation has previously been undertaken in relation to the regulations. My officials are about to provide me with further advice to that end, and I will write to the member with an update. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes portfolio questions on education and skills. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business, to allow front-bench teams to change position, should they so wish. Migration System”
“The best interests of the child are at the heart of every decision that is made in relation to placements in secure care.”
“Can the Scottish Government reassure the people of Scotland and, more important, the young people who are caught up in the system that no one, on any occasion, is rushed out of secure accommodation to make provision for a more serious case as perceived by those who are deciding who goes where? Natalie Don-Innes: I can absolutely give that assurance. Given the situation before Christmas, the matter received a lot of attention. The problem has been alleviated, and, as I said in my statement, three beds are available across Scotland. As I also said in my statement, the shift in capacity in secure care can happen daily. The heads of secure care centres and other organisations engage with each other and discuss the best interests of the child. I reassure Mr Whitfield that what he suggested is not the case.”
“I thank the minister for her statement, which was requested before Christmas recess, along with an assurance that there was not going to be a capacity issue over the Christmas recess period. During that time, on average, only one bed was available. The minister talked about three beds being available this morning. In fact, only two beds are available at the moment, and no emergency beds are available, so the spare capacity is only two beds. There is great concern that young people who are placed in secure accommodation on a care and welfare basis are possibly being rushed out before it is safe in order to create space and to facilitate the flexibility that is being talked about.”
“Future work in all of Scotland’s 32 local authorities will prioritise opportunities for young people aged between 10 and 25 in the most deprived 20 per cent of areas in”
“I welcome the Government’s commitment to deal with young people’s involvement in crime and antisocial behaviour. Does the minister recognise the crucial role that youth work plays in addressing youth crime and antisocial behaviour? I know that she will not acknowledge it, but Government cuts have had a detrimental impact, so should youth work be placed on a statutory footing so that young people can avoid becoming involved in crime? Siobhian Brown: The Scottish Government’s budget will increase funding for local authorities, which will assist youth and community projects. Our hugely successful cashback for communities programme supports young people who are most at risk of being drawn into antisocial behaviour, offending and re-offending and delivers positive outcomes.”