Richard Lochhead
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“Artificial intelligence and all the other developments will change how we raise and spend taxes, how we buy things and what we buy. Everything will be impacted by the changes that are taking place before our eyes. Automation will displace labour and it will do other things as well.”
“Across the parties, we all know what needs to be done. I hope that, in the future, we can build a consensus to make sure that that happens—with respect, grace, and good, robust arguments. If we do that better, perhaps we can set an example to other Parliaments in countries around the world.”
“I thank the current and three previous First Ministers, who entrusted me with the responsibility of being in Government; the Parliament staff and the civil service for their advice and support; and my private office staff. I thank my friends and colleagues—past and present—in my party group and on all sides of the chamber.”
“I thank Clare Haughey for bringing the debate before Parliament. The closure of high street branches and all the changes that that means for people in our communities have been a feature of the past few years. Clare Haughey is an outstanding constituency MSP who always looks out for the vulnerable.”
“The FCA has committed to undertaking a post-implementation review of its access-to-cash regime, and we will ensure that many of the issues that have been addressed in tonight’s debate are part of that review.”
“I am sure that my colleagues have similar thoughts about what we have witnessed over so many years. My heartfelt thanks must go first to my family: my wife, Fiona; my son, Angus, who is in Brisbane and is probably watching this speech at some ungodly hour; and my younger son, Fraser, who is about to turn 18 and is in the chamber’s gallery…”
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“At this time last year, I convened a cross-party round table on access to cash and banking services, which brought together the FCA, Link, Cash Access UK, the Post Office and members from across the parties and which helped us all to get a shared understanding of the new rules that were coming in at that time. Under the new FCA rules, anyone who is concerned about access to cash in their area can make a cash access request to Link. There is also a right to appeal following an assessment decision. Of course, there are important safeguards, and I encourage individuals and community representatives to exercise their rights. It is great to hear about examples from around the country of people using that process. I will come back to concerns over the rejections of some requests.”
“Although the regulation of financial services is a reserved matter, the Scottish Government has been proactive in our engagements with the sector and with the regulator to advocate for Scotland’s interests. The issue has been debated and raised in the chamber many times. The Government welcomes the FCA’s new regulatory powers on access to cash, which came into force in 2024. Ahead of the implementation of those rules, the Scottish Government provided feedback during the consultation process, which helped to lead the FCA to amend its definitions of “urban” and “rural” in the Scottish context, in recognition of our unique geography and the challenges that are faced in particular by rural and island communities, as members have mentioned. We have also taken some practical steps.”
“I learned about Virgin Money’s banking promise, which has been outlined, to keep the branch open until early 2028, and about all the various services that are delivered there, including supporting customers with dementia, issuing SIM cards to people who are unable to have connectivity, helping people who have experience of domestic abuse, and providing other services such as working with local schools on entrepreneurial, banking and financial skills. The work that is being carrying out is tremendous. As others have said, it is a good example for other high street banks to follow. I certainly share the concerns that have been expressed by many members. Jamie Hepburn outlined some of the stark statistics about the rate of bank closures in Scotland in recent years.”
“I pay tribute to Craig Hoy for securing this debate on high street banks in Scotland, the rate of closures and some of the issues that arise. Clearly, the concerns that he outlined are very familiar to many members around the country—particularly to those of us in more rural constituencies, such as myself, as the representative of Moray. I remember a report from a few years ago that said that Moray was the hardest-hit constituency when it came to bank closures. Although we now have a banking hub in Forres and a cash hub in Lossiemouth, we have only one high street bank left outside of Elgin, which is in Keith. I therefore associate myself with Craig Hoy’s tribute to Virgin Money, whose bank branch that is. Within the past couple of weeks, I have met Alison Moffat, Adam Featch and their great team there.”
“Richard Lochhead: Of course, many local authorities are considering raising the levy to inject investment back into the local visitor economy and thereby bring benefits. That is why 21 out of 27 European countries have some kind of occupancy tax in their jurisdictions. The concerns in Edinburgh should be communicated directly to the local council by those who are affected. However, we continue to engage constructively with the sector at all times. My colleague Ivan McKee is involved in leading those discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and industry representatives. In the same way that we have done in the past, we will continue to listen to them in the future.”
“Jamie Halcro Johnston: Yesterday, The Herald reported that the new visitor levy has already forced accommodation providers in Edinburgh into a position in which they are breaking the law, with Booking.com and Airbnb being unable to apply the Government’s five-night cap correctly. The Scottish Bed and Breakfast Association described the situation as “ridiculous and unacceptable”. Does the minister accept that whatever discussions took place within Government clearly failed? Would he also agree that, if that is how the poorly thought-out and poorly implemented new tax affects Edinburgh, owners of small B and Bs and guesthouses across my Highlands and Islands region have every reason to fear how the Scottish National Party’s visitor levy will damage their already fragile and under-pressure tourism economy?”
“Tourism is one of Scotland’s key growth sectors, and the Scottish Government is committed to working with the tourism sector to create a resilient, sustainable, accessible and inclusive tourism economy for the future. It is a measure of the sector’s importance that I am in regular contact with the sector, as are many of my ministerial and Cabinet colleagues. There is a Cabinet sub-committee on investment and economic growth, and as part of our on-going bilateral engagement on policy development work, including on taxation and regulation, we look at all those issues and their impact on tourism and hospitality.”
“Scotland’s technology sector has more than doubled in size over a 10-year period, so it is going in the right direction. Many of the businesses in the technology sector tell me that they are in Scotland because of the talent pipeline, so they are able to find the talent. However, the member is quite right that the measures that I outlined in my initial answer are extremely important for ensuring that we have more computing science teachers in Scotland’s schools.”
“What is the Scottish Government doing to reverse that worrying and damaging trend? Richard Lochhead: Mr Russell highlights an important issue for the future of Scotland's technology sector and the future of our society. In my opening remarks, I outlined a number of investments that are taking place to reverse the situation. I will also take this opportunity to commend Skyscanner. Members may have seen the recent news that a number of Skyscanner staff are undertaking teaching qualifications. For part of their week, they work for Skyscanner and for the other part of the week, they are in classrooms, inspiring the next generation of software engineers. That is a first-class, inspirational initiative that has been taken by Skyscanner, and it shows that employers have a role to play as well.”
“That fulfils key recommendations of Mark Logan’s 2020 “Scottish Technology Ecosystem Review”, which the Government commissioned and which was aimed at improving the talent pipeline for high-growth businesses. We also continue to offer bursaries to career changers to train in hard-to-fill subjects, including computing science. Davy Russell: The right technology and computer skills will be crucial to the future success of Scotland’s economy. That is true for South Lanarkshire, which hosts a great deal of infrastructure that supports the use of artificial intelligence. However, if we mirror the national trend across Scotland, we see that there has been a decline in the number of secondary computing science teachers in South Lanarkshire over the past five years.”
“We recognise that delivering high-quality computing science education is important to Scotland’s technology and digital economy. Although we do not hold data on the direct link between teacher numbers and employment in the sector, we are taking action to attract more students into teaching computing. We are funding a pilot at Aberdeen university to support students with relevant higher national diploma qualifications to undertake further study to become computing science teachers. We established Scottish Teachers Advancing Computing Science to support teachers and, by the end of this financial year, we will have invested over £1 million in it.”
“Richard Lochhead: That investment is therefore important to ensure that the network is robust, as well as in helping us to move to net zero and ensure that we can deploy Scotland’s massive renewable energy potential—- Douglas Lumsden: You have made up your mind. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mr Lumsden, we need to listen to the questions and we also need to listen to the responses. I call Clare Adamson for a supplementary.”
“Richard Lochhead: I am not quite sure where to begin in answering that question, because there are a lot of comments there that simply do not stack up. First, I cannot believe that a Conservative member is saying that he does not welcome SSEN investment in Scotland to the tune of billions of pounds. He must be one of the few people in Scotland who takes that approach, because that investment is very important. It is important first and foremost for consumers, especially in the light of the local storms that we have seen in Scotland over the past few weeks. We need a robust transmission infrastructure and electricity networks—[Interruption.] The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mr Lumsden!”
“Douglas Lumsden: Earlier this week, it was revealed that more than 10,000 people have objected to plans for more than 350 monster pylons between Kintore in Aberdeenshire and Tealing in Angus, yet Gillian Martin was quoted in the United Kingdom Government press release thanking Scottish and Southern Electricity Networks for its investment in Scotland. It is absolutely unacceptable that she gets to play judge, jury and executioner on pylon decisions when she has clearly already made up her mind. It is even more outrageous that she will not listen to the concerns of campaign groups but is happy enough to cosy up to SSEN. Is it not the case that in order to meet the green jobs target, those mega pylons, which most of my constituents do not want, have to be approved, which thereby makes a total mockery of our planning and consultation process?”
“The Scottish Government is committed to a just transition to net zero, which will bring opportunities across Scotland’s economy, including from the network upgrade programme. Our “Green Industrial Strategy” sets out how the Scottish Government helps businesses and investors to realise the enormous economic opportunities of the global transition to net zero. To give one example, a paper by the University of Strathclyde estimates that up to 80,000 jobs would be required by 2035 in electricity networks and related infrastructure. Scottish ministers consider each proposal for consent case by case, including the potential economic benefits.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app was not working. I would have voted no. The Presiding Officer: We will ensure that that is recorded.”
“I congratulate Clare Haughey on securing the motion for debate in the chamber and I commend her on her local campaign and support of the local community. Meeting closed at 17:57. This is the final edition of the Official Report for this meeting. It is part of the Scottish Parliament Official Report archive and has been sent for legal deposit. Published in Edinburgh by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, the Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh, EH99 1SP All documents are available on the Scottish Parliament website at: www.parliament.scot Information on non-endorsed print suppliers is available here: www.parliament.scot/documents For information on the Scottish Parliament contact Public Information on: Telephone: 0131 348 5000 Textphone: 0800 092 7100 Email: sp.info@parliament.scot”
“The project also considered how its role in the local community could be leveraged to support those who are furthest from employment and encourages people to engage with the service through a community pantry. I thank colleagues for bringing the issue to the attention of the Government and highlighting many of the concerns that are being expressed locally. I will take up Clare Haughey’s offer to write to UK ministers to indicate the strength of feeling among some parties in the chamber and will note her particular interest in the matter as a local MSP. We will seek a response to her and others’ concerns and will probe for more information about the UK Government’s intended timescales. We will also ask why there was no consultation, among other issues.”
“The commitment to implement specialist employability support is a good example of the Scottish Government working closely with local government to target our activity for significant labour market challenges. Delivery of the specialist employability support has been live in all local authority areas since 1 July this year. Ministers have seen first hand how Scottish Government funding is being used by the local employability partnership in South Lanarkshire to support the people of Cambuslang into work. My predecessor launched the employability strategic plan in September 2024 and visited the Routes to Work South project, which has supported people into employment in a local cafe. That is one example of the good work that is happening locally.”
“We want those services to be seen as an opportunity, which is why participation remains voluntary. We have invested £90 million in devolved employability services in 2025-26. The funding ensures that every local authority area in Scotland has an all-age employability offer in place. Our employability investment seeks to balance local flexibility with the assurance that services support the delivery of the Government’s missions to support the economy and eradicate child poverty. That is why our budget continues to include specific funding to support parents, for instance, to enter employment and increase their earnings. From 2025-26, there will be specific funding to ensure that every area has an offer of specialist employability support for disabled people.”
“Through our no one left behind approach, which is delivered in partnership with local government, partners at a local level have flexibility to tailor provision to the needs of service users and local labour markets. Building meaningful relationships between key workers and people accessing support is seen by the Government as a critical aspect of service delivery. Our approach ensures that in-person provision can be effectively targeted by local partners to areas of need, utilising a range of expertise across the public, third and private sectors. The Scottish Government has deliberately taken a different approach to devolved services with our policies built around the values of dignity, respect, fairness, equality and continuous improvement.”
“Travelling further and longer will undoubtedly present more of a challenge to some population groups, not least parents and disabled people. As Annie Wells, Clare Haughey and others have said, the face-to-face contact that some people require more than others is very important and has to be taken into account. Due to the nature of the devolution settlement, the delivery of employability and social security support straddles both the Scottish and UK Governments. The closure may have an indirect impact on people’s access to devolved employability services in South Lanarkshire, and we are therefore disappointed that we were not consulted on the decision. In contrast to the closure, the Scottish Government’s approach to devolved employability services recognises the importance of place-based delivery.”
“I note Clare Haughey’s comments about the cross-party support locally in her constituency for retaining the jobcentre, albeit that the Labour Party has not turned up or participated in the debate, which is unfortunate. I suspect that, as others have said, had it been a different Government that was closing the jobcentre, Labour members would have been queueing up to protest and speak in the debate. The decision certainly risks making it more difficult for people to access the support that the DWP provides and could increase the instances of sanctions as a result of additional travel time to attend jobcentre appointments. That in turn is likely to cause a disproportionate impact on people who already experience structural barriers to entering and sustaining employment.”
“I thank Clare Haughey for bringing forward this debate on what is clearly a very important issue, as has been expressed by those members who stayed behind to take part in it. Many of our ministers in the Scottish Government, including me, share the concerns that Clare Haughey and other members have expressed about the closure of Cambuslang jobcentre, particularly given the lack of consultation with those impacted that has been reported, not least the people who currently access support through the jobcentre. As members have already said, this is not the first time that the Cambuslang jobcentre has been earmarked for closure, and community campaigns have previously been successful in ensuring that it remains open.”
“Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees, for the purposes of consideration of the supplementary legislative consent memorandum on the Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill, Rules 9B.3.5 and 9B.3.6 of Standing Orders are suspended. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S6M-19269, in the name of Graeme Dey, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on approval of a Scottish statutory instrument be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed.”
“For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Abstentions Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 85, Against 0, Abstentions 26.”
“The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S6M-19268, in the name of Graeme Dey, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on suspension of standing orders, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“Motion, as amended, agreed to, That the Parliament recognises that future economic growth is reliant on providing the right opportunities to create good jobs that allow businesses to expand; notes the Audit Scotland report entitled, Scotland’s colleges 2025, and the importance of continued investment in Scotland’s colleges and skills system to support inclusive economic success, prosperity and job creation, including provision of around three quarters of a billion pounds in Scotland’s colleges in 2025-26, and an additional £3.5 million for skills, through the Scottish Budget; acknowledges that this is particularly important in the thriving sectors, like those critical to realising the transition to net zero, and the shared opportunities of this; recognises the key role that colleges, employers and training providers have played in ensuring that 93% of school leavers have a positive destination, and providing apprenticeships and training to a record 39,000 individuals, and notes, however, concern about the impact of Brexit and the UK Government's migration system, which is contributing to key skills gaps and labour market shortages.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app froze. I would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: We will make sure that that is recorded. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 61, Against 51, Abstentions 0.”
“I was blown away by its innovation and its work to ensure that we have the right skills for the 21st century, teaching young people what they require for the new economy. It is working with six innovation hubs, involving a number of colleges that have received UK Government funding to take forward its innovation agenda. It is great to see that collaboration. I also had the privilege of recently visiting Fife College and its fantastic new campus that is being built in Dunfermline. Fife College is excited about the future, as well; there is a lot of positivity out there.”
“A few weeks ago, I had the honour of attending the 15th anniversary gala dinner of the City of Glasgow College, of which I am an alumnus, with the First Minister and many other people. I attended the predecessor college, the Central College of Commerce in Glasgow, in the mid-1980s. I was a lot younger then than I am now, and I graduated with a higher national certificate in business studies at that time. Here I am, standing in 2025 as Minister for Business and Employment in the Scottish Government, so I certainly benefited from my time at college, as have hundreds of thousands of young people across Scotland over the years. I visited Glasgow Kelvin College just a few weeks ago.”
“I congratulate all the education providers who helped to achieve that. Also, as Ben Macpherson said in his opening remarks, 93 per cent of school leavers have a positive destination, which is something to celebrate. Daniel Johnson said that the figure of 39,000 individuals that is mentioned in the Scottish Government’s amendment misleads the Parliament, but that is a very accurate figure. The figure that he quoted was for the first quarter of this year, whereas the figure that we quote is the whole-year figure for last year. Clearly, the figures change throughout the year, so we have to use the annual figure and not the quarterly figure. Our figure is accurate and we have not misled the Parliament. I would like to put on record the amazing work that our colleges are doing in Scotland.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: Always speak through the chair. Richard Lochhead: I would always rather listen to them than to you, with all due respect— The Deputy Presiding Officer: Always speak through the chair, please. Richard Lochhead: I take on board the fact that it is very challenging out there. Our colleges have such a crucial role to play in ensuring that we have the skills that we need for the future economy and that we are helping young people to get on the ladder in life, and in opening up new opportunities and horizons for them. I congratulate the colleges, schools and training providers on what they are achieving. In the 2024- 25 academic year, 110,380 vocational and technical qualifications and awards were issued. That is a new landmark, and the numbers are up 21.6 per cent on the year before.”
“Many points have made in the debate. I will address some of them and rebut some of the claims that have been made by other parties in relation to our vibrant college sector. Murdo Fraser started by talking down the Scottish economy. Although we agree that it is very tough out there in many ways, let us not forget that, since 2007, gross domestic product per person in Scotland has grown by 10.3 per cent compared with 6.8 per cent in the UK. Productivity is growing at an average rate of 0.9 per cent per year, compared with 0.3 per cent in the rest of the UK. Murdo Fraser: I was not talking anything down; I was quoting from the survey that was published this morning by the Scottish Chambers of Commerce and the Fraser of Allander Institute. You will not listen to me, but why will you not listen to them?”
“We want to maximise the advantages of that and ensure that we secure as much economic benefit from it as we can, so that we are talking about not just the contracts that we are discussing today but the many more contracts coming to Scottish shipyards in the years ahead. I am sure that, if we can collaborate and work closely together, we can achieve that for Scotland. 13:26 Meeting suspended. 14:00 On resuming— Business Motion”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: Please start to conclude, minister. Richard Lochhead: As the First Minister indicated during First Minister’s questions in relation to some of those themes, we are sympathetic to doing what we can, and we are looking at procurement issues closely. However, we have to do that within the legal constraints of public subsidy control legislation. We continue to discuss this with the UK Government and we also engage with the National Shipbuilding Office on proposed procurement exercises. I realise that I am running out of time, but I just want to say that we are all in the same place, which is that we all want to support Scottish shipbuilding going forward. We are on the cusp of an exciting new chapter for shipbuilding in Scotland.”
“I say gently to members that the focus of today’s debate is on Norwegian investment in Scottish shipyards, which is evidence that this is a global, international and competitive industry. Paul Sweeney: Will the minister take an intervention? Richard Lochhead: Yes. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Make it brief, as the minister will be concluding. Paul Sweeney: Will the minister consider investigating making further use of section 45 of the Subsidy Control Act 2022? There have now been two incidents of the Russians sabotaging undersea cables around the Northern Isles. In the case of the Northern Isles ferry, there is a strong rationale for considering the national security implications and making that a direct award—or, at least, a UK-only competition. Will he look into that case?”
“The National Manufacturing Institute Scotland, industry partners and Innovate UK’s workforce foresighting hub have developed a report that highlights the need for updated training to equip the workforce with the skills that will be required as the industry evolves and adopts new technologies. That report recommends actions for the shipbuilding industry to prepare its workforce effectively for the needs of the future. That will be a key focus for the sector and for partners. With all the support that we can and do provide to our shipbuilding sector in Scotland, we must also be cognisant of the facts that shipbuilding is a competitive global market and that any direct award of a public contract must comply with procurement rules and be capable of withstanding legal challenge.”
“A huge amount of activity is under way to address the skills pipeline so that we can take advantage of all the potential that is under discussion in the debate. As members will be aware, we are undertaking a major reform of the skills system so that it meets Scotland’s needs. Ministers continue to engage with all the relevant industries, including shipbuilding and the defence sector, that are looking forward to that reform. A recent report that the group that I mentioned commissioned from defence and marine expert Hans Pung and the RAND group, through a project managed by Skills Development Scotland, mentions a number of workforce planning measures for the regional cluster on the Clyde that align with the recommendations of the UK Government’s shipbuilding skills task force.”
“We are also engaging with the UK Government’s National Shipbuilding Office to maximise support for the Scottish commercial shipbuilding sector. As we know, access to skilled labour is a challenge for shipbuilding companies, particularly when it comes to fabrication and welding, so we have invested up to £2 million in developing engineering skills in Glasgow under an initiative that was designed by the Clyde maritime cluster in partnership with Skills Development Scotland. Scottish Enterprise has also recently provided more than £9 million to BAE Systems to support a training and skills academy. In addition, we have been working with the Clyde maritime group on future workforce planning.”
“Paul Sweeney: Does the minister recognise, however, what the shipyards have been telling us, which is that, to win commercial work, they need social value weighting and patient finance? The Scottish National Investment Bank does not really offer any shipbuilding finance products that are competitive with other countries. Can we address that fundamental issue? Richard Lochhead: Those are all parts of on- going discussions, but the £14.2 million pledge for investment is a clear commitment. In addition, we are engaging with the UK Government on the next steps of its industrial strategy and its planned review of the national shipbuilding strategy, to emphasise Scotland’s strengths in shipbuilding and marine technology.”
“All of that will be part of those discussions, and we will continue to do whatever we can to support commercial shipbuilding as well as attract the naval contracts that we hope will come to Scotland. As evidence of our commitment, our action in taking Ferguson Marine into public ownership saved the last commercial shipyard on the Clyde and rescued more than 300 jobs—something that we have heard many times in the chamber. As Katy Clark also mentioned, we committed to investing up to £14.2 million over two years in Ferguson Marine, subject to due diligence and the meeting of commercial standards, and we look forward to hearing further from the shipyard about proposals for investing that money. We remain firmly committed to supporting Ferguson Marine to competitively bid for future contracts in order to secure its long-term future.”
“Richard Lochhead: As I have said, a lot of discussion is going on at the moment to make sure that we can capture as much of those contracts for the Scottish supply chain as possible. That is also part of the UK discussions, because one theme that has been raised by members of the business community in Scotland is the need for clear visibility of and timelines for what is coming down the pipeline, so that they can take advantage of that in Scottish supply chains. That issue has been highlighted, and we are keen to bring it into our discussions with UK colleagues. We have a growing supply chain that can take advantage of support for advanced manufacturing and high-tech jobs.”
“Clearly, that was prior to the announcement that we are discussing today, but one theme of our discussion was the massive potential for Scotland’s supply chains from the forthcoming increase in defence expenditure and the need to ensure that our very well equipped supply chains benefit greatly from such contracts. Paul Sweeney: The minister has made an important point about the supply chain. Around 80 per cent of the value of those ships is bought into the shipyard through the supply chain, so maximising that content is key. Will the minister outline what Scottish Enterprise, other enterprise agencies and the Scottish National Investment Bank could do to get patient finance in place to support investment and get more Scottish content into those ships?”
“Richard Lochhead: It is clear that I am surrounded by political parties that want to take credit for what is happening, so I will focus on paying tribute to the workforce at the yard. As I— and others—have said, it shows that our shipyards are competitive in what is a global industry. It is important to make that point. We continue to work with the UK Government to ensure that Scotland benefits from the increased defence spending that is included in the planned defence growth deals. Two or three months ago here in Edinburgh, in my role as business minister, I joined the former Secretary of State for Scotland, Ian Murray, to meet business organisations.”
“I certainly support that sentiment, because the contracts will mean significant investments in the yard, opportunities for people in the area, and a significant boost to employment in the defence sector in Scotland. It is also, as Alasdair Allan and others have said, a vote of confidence in the workforce. Stephen Kerr: It is quite right to give thanks to the Norwegian Government for this extraordinary vote of confidence in Scotland’s shipbuilding, but will the minister join me in recognising, as I said in my speech, the significant part that the national shipbuilding strategy of 2017—a strategy that came from the UK Conservative Government— played in leading to this moment? At the time, it was pretty much derided by his members of Parliament at Westminster.”
“As a Government, we are committed to ensuring that shipbuilding, marine engineering and ship servicing on the Clyde continue to flourish, and that we continue to support our innovative marine technology companies to grow. Much of the focus in the debate has been on naval shipbuilding, which, as we have just discussed, remains a particular strength in Scotland. The recent announcement from the Norwegian Government of a £10 billion investment in naval ships to be built on the Clyde has, of course, been welcomed by the First Minister and members across the chamber today. I add my support to Paul Sweeney’s thanks to the Norwegian Government for placing that order with the Clyde.”
“I welcome the debate and congratulate Paul Sweeney on securing it. We are discussing a very important part of the Scottish economy and an exciting new chapter for this sector; indeed, Paul Sweeney eloquently outlined the sector’s deep heritage. Often, when I talk about Scotland’s industrial heritage, I recall that, at the beginning of the 20th century, the Glasgow and Clyde shipyards were producing around a third of the world’s ocean-going vessels. It is exciting to be here in 2025 talking about this new chapter in the story of shipbuilding in Scotland. We have a proud history in shipbuilding, and, of course, manufacturing capability lies at the heart of it.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I advise members that, as we are nearing the agreed time limit, under rule 9.8.4A(c), I consider it necessary to allow the debate on this group to continue beyond the limit in order to avoid the debate being unreasonably curtailed. I call Ross Greer to speak to amendment 291 and other amendments in the group.”
“Meghan Gallacher: We are discussing this amendment, not decisions that have been taken elsewhere. When we consider balance and the parity of the sector, we have to be reasonable in the amendments that we lodge. I do not think that we can undermine confidence in the sector any more than it has already been undermined by decisions that have been taken in our consideration of the housing bill up to this point. I believe that amendments such as this will lead to more landlords leaving the sector. We need a stable and predictable deposit scheme, which is good for maintaining landlord confidence. We will reflect that in what we vote for this evening.”