Jamie Hepburn
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“We have a full week left next week. The committee could request that witnesses give evidence on a day when it does not normally sit— that is entirely possible. Jamie Hepburn: I was going to come on to that. I recognise that point, and it was considered, given Ms Hamilton’s concerns.”
“The member will appreciate that the Government cannot compel a committee to undertake scrutiny that it does not want to undertake, and I do not think that Parliament would want the Government to do that.”
“The timing of the bill’s introduction—it was after the Scottish Parliament elections and during the period of Government formation—was always going to be challenging, but that has been compounded by the lack of prior engagement from the UK Government, despite its intent to expedite the passage of the Steel Industry (Nationalisation) Bill…”
“I recognise that it is regrettable that I must stand before Parliament today and ask that it suspend standing orders to allow the first motion on legislative consent in this parliamentary session to come straight to the chamber. By way of background, the UK Government introduced the Steel Industry (Nationalisation) Bill on 14 May 2026.”
“I believe that all of us in public life strive for that and that we have all been motivated to enter politics for those reasons. Maybe that is a reminder of the point that David Linden made about the common ground that exists between us all.”
“We should recognise the challenges that we face, but Adam Harley made an important point: that the general experience of being involved in politics is a good one. Just as he spoke of, I like nothing more than to engage with the constituents I represent in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. By and large, that is a positive experience.”
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“Yesterday, Neil Gray was forced to apologise for misleading Parliament about his statement on 14 November. He claimed that the summaries of the so-called meetings that occurred at the football matches were available, but a freedom of information response from 13 December confirmed that no notes were held for various meetings that occurred at football matches, including the four that I mentioned were attended by Neil Gray. The story was even published in a newspaper two days later, with a Scottish Government comment having been provided for it, so there can be no doubt that Neil Gray knew months ago that he had misled Parliament. He had clearly violated the ministerial code. It is black and white. Does the minister accept that that is a violation of the ministerial code?”
“The Scottish ministerial code requires any inaccuracy in what ministers say to Parliament to be corrected at the earliest opportunity. On the same day that that inadvertent error was the subject of Opposition members’ points of order, Mr Gray himself raised a point of order to acknowledge the error, wrote to the Presiding Officer, the members who raised the matter yesterday, business managers and any members who are not represented on the bureau, and lodged copies of his correspondence with the Scottish Parliament information centre. Stephen Kerr: The whole point of this urgent question is that the FOI response on 13 December shows that Neil Gray attended four events for which there are no recorded summaries. The ministerial code states that the official record should be corrected at the earliest possible opportunity.”
“I move, That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for Thursday 23 January 2025— delete 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions: Social Justice and insert 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Social Justice followed by Ministerial Statement: Scottish Government Response to Fatal Accident Inquiries into the Deaths of Katie Allan and William Brown followed by Ministerial Statement: Future of the National Care Service delete 5.00 pm Decision Time and insert 6.10 pm Decision Time Motion agreed to. Point of Order 17:00”
“Members will note that the motion will allow time for consideration of the stage 3 amendments that have been lodged to Christine Grahame’s Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill and for two parliamentary statements relating to matters of significance and importance. I am sure that members will welcome the opportunity to ask the Government questions on those.”
“I emphasise the point that it will be at least 10 per cent. I thank members for their contributions and I give an assurance to the Parliament that I will consider the report’s contents and come back in due course. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes the debate, and I suspend this meeting of Parliament until 2 o’clock. 13:33 Meeting suspended. 14:00 On resuming— Portfolio Question Time Net Zero and Energy, and Transport”
“The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice has met Rhoda Grant to discuss those matters and will continue to give them consideration. Presiding Officer, I think that I am well over my time. There is much more that I could say, which reflects my earlier point that this is a wide-ranging report to which we will give consideration. I have been unable to touch on many of the issues that I had hoped to touch on—for example, in relation to housing, including our on-going investment in social housing. That is a challenge across the country, particularly in the Highlands and Islands. I reassure Ariane Burgess that the commitment to building social housing—affordable housing, rather—in rural and island communities involves at least 10 per cent of the houses that we will build being in such communities.”
“The report was published in November, which is not that long ago. Nonetheless, I remind Richard Leonard that we were able to have a debate on human rights just a month afterwards, in which some of the issues were reflected. My point on fuel poverty and the choice between heating and eating is that we should welcome the fact that Scottish Government initiatives, including the Scottish child payment, are keeping tens of thousands of children out of poverty. From next year, we will implement our winter heating payment, which will reverse the removal of the winter fuel payment for 100,000 people across the Highlands and Islands. Again, that was referred to by the Deputy First Minister. To return to the issue of the right to food, the Government agrees with Rhoda Grant that such a right should be brought into Scots law.”
“I reflect on the fact that the energy market is regulated from Westminster rather than by the Scottish Government, but we are aware of those challenges. Jamie Halcro Johnston: The point that was being made is that a lot of the planning decisions on energy infrastructure are being passed by the Scottish Government. You said that— The Deputy Presiding Officer: Speak through the chair. Jamie Halcro Johnston: My apologies. The minister said that the Government would give due consideration to the report and would come back in due course. When it comes to timescales, “due course” means nothing. When does the minister expect to come back with the Government’s response? Jamie Hepburn: It would be remiss of me to provide an exact timescale, and I do not have one before me just now. However, the commitment is to come back as soon as possible.”
“That is one reason why we continue to call on the UK Government to deliver an essentials guarantee— for which the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has also called, estimating that, this year, that could lift 140,000 people in Scotland out of poverty. The point was made about some people having to choose between heating and eating, and the Deputy First Minister made the point that nearly 40 per cent of the population of the Western Isles are in fuel poverty. Beatrice Wishart also mentioned the issue—I do not have the specific numbers, but it is a challenge in Shetland as well. Of course, we know that that is an issue. Jamie Halcro Johnston spoke about some of the challenges of infrastructure and the irony that those areas in which the energy is generated do not benefit directly from it.”
“We have provided investment of more than £600 million in our reaching 100 per cent programme, which is expected to connect more than 113,000 premises across Scotland. Our forthcoming delivery plan and the new national islands plan will set out how we will deliver for our mainland, rural and island communities. Turning to food insecurity and the right to food, which have been touched on, I note that Rhoda Grant, in particular, has continued to champion issues of hunger and food insecurity. It should go without saying—I will say it anyway—that no one should have to compromise on food or other essentials. Food insecurity is driven by insufficient and insecure household income.”
“Jamie Hepburn: I have already made the point that the Government will give full consideration to everything in the report—as it should, because it is a thorough and diligent piece of work—and that is one of the areas that will be considered. On investment and support for the Highlands and Islands, I was about to mention some of the activity that we are undertaking in the here and now. Since 2021-22, our islands programme capital funding scheme has distributed more than £15 million of support for 71 infrastructure projects across 51 different islands. Beatrice Wishart mentioned digital connectivity, and I know that some of the greatest challenges in this country in that regard are in the Highlands and Islands.”
“I will not be able to respond to the full breadth of matters in detail, but I assure members that the Government is considering the report carefully. The Government continues to take action that is geared towards improving service delivery and design, to meet the specific needs of communities in the Highlands and Islands. That includes action to address some of the issues that are outlined in the commission’s report on housing, transport and depopulation, for example. Rhoda Grant: One proposal in the report that the Government could implement now is human rights-based budgeting. Will that be considered? That would address an awful lot of the concerns that were raised in the report.”
“In particular, I welcome its efforts to pilot a new model of human rights monitoring that brings together the lived experiences of our Highlands and Islands communities with other qualitative and quantitative data that assesses that evidence against international human rights standards. I am aware that the commission plans to expand that model over the coming years to build a baseline picture of economic, social and cultural rights realisation across the breadth of Scotland. In some senses, the report is a trailblazer and its methodology will be applicable beyond the Highlands and Islands. I am grateful to members for their contributions. The report is wide ranging and touches on work across all portfolios. Emma Roddick made some inference to that when she said that she could have delivered 12 speeches on the subject.”
“As I was saying, the report is wide ranging and the rights that are described in it touch on virtually every area of life in the Highlands and Islands. Many of the challenges that are described are interconnected. I recognise that the report rightly poses challenges to the Scottish Government. We are considering the report and we will come back, in due course, on how we intend to respond to it. Although some of the issues that are raised apply beyond the Highlands and Islands, as Mr Carson has reminded us, we need to make sure that our actions reflect the specific needs of the communities that are directly referred to in the report, in order to advance the realisation of all of their human rights. Before turning to members’ contributions in detail, I briefly acknowledge the approach that the commission has taken in the report.”
“The report is wide ranging— Richard Leonard: Will the minister take an intervention? Jamie Hepburn: Of course. Richard Leonard: For clarity, does that mean that you will schedule Government time to debate the report? The Deputy Presiding Officer: I will not. I ask the minister to respond. Jamie Hepburn: Of course, your perspective on these matters is always welcome, Presiding Officer. I go back to my earlier point that I am more than willing to consider these matters. I remind Mr Leonard that his party regularly has time to bring forward its own debates, and I am sure that he will speak to his business manager about allocating a debate in Labour Party time. I will, of course, give consideration to using Scottish Government time as well.”
“I, too, thank Rhoda Grant for bringing the motion to Parliament. Like her, I thank the Scottish Human Rights Commission for the report that is at the centre of the debate, and I very much echo the sentiments that have been expressed on the detail and breadth of the report. I commend the commission’s programme of work to hear directly from rights holders across 20 of our Highlands and Islands communities, as has been mentioned in contributions today. Contrary to Mr Leonard’s concern that the Scottish Government has not allocated time for these matters to be explored, during last month’s human rights day debate, the report rightly generated significant interest and welcome challenge on advancing human rights realisation for people in our Highlands and Islands.”
“We have to recognise the pernicious division of class. We have to comprehend that, unless we tackle this obscene and rising inequality—the division in income, wealth and power—we will never address the fundamental breaches of human rights that are highlighted in this very serious, important and ground-breaking report. 13:11”
“Even among small Highlands and Islands communities that are blighted by hunger, rooflessness and fuel poverty, there exists great affluence. From Anders Holch Povlsen, the richest man in Scotland, to the old aristocracy, including the Earl of Seafield, Earl Granville, the Earl of Sutherland, the Camerons of Lochiel and the Duke of Westminster—all with massive land ownership and vast wealth. The report is right to determine the equality gap in fundamental human rights between rural and urban Scotland. It is right to point to the acute levels of homelessness in our Highlands and Islands, as well as to the access that is denied to basic public services and fundamental human rights such as food and clothing. However, we have to understand the colossal wealth gap that exists in the Highlands and Islands.”
“When I was with Rhoda Grant in Shetland, we met the workers at the Sullom Voe terminal, a northerly centre for the United Kingdom oil and gas industry for more than four decades. We sat down and spoke with representatives of the very impressive Shetland Fishermen’s Federation. They told us that their members net one sixth of the catch for the whole of the UK, yet we know that a third of the inhabitants of Shetland are living in fuel poverty. It reminded me of Aneurin Bevan’s observation: “This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organising genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time.” In other words, what is wrong is the way in which our society and economy are organised; what is wrong is the way in which power and wealth are distributed.”
“The rights to health, social care, education and culture are not getting better; they are getting worse. These are not abstract or theoretical findings. These rights are about ensuring that everyone can live a dignified life, free from fear and want, but what this report finds is that there is hunger, deprivation and malnutrition. I made some inquiries recently, only to discover that Public Health Scotland does not routinely collect data on malnutrition. However, it should do, because we know from the British Association for Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition that the number of patients who are admitted to hospital diagnosed with malnutrition has doubled to more than 44 per cent in the past decade.”
“Of course, if Mr Leonard’s business manager cares to raise that matter with me, I would be more than willing to give consideration to scheduling such a debate. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Richard Leonard, I can give you the time back. Richard Leonard: Thank you. I hope that the Minister for Parliamentary Business will propose that at a future meeting of the business bureau. However, I will tell members why it perhaps has not come up so far. Perhaps it is because the key words in the report are “failure”, “regression” and “deterioration”. “Across all rights examined,” the commission concludes, “there is not a single human right that meets all the conditions of adequacy under international law”— not one. Minimum core obligations such as access to food and housing are not being met.”