Jamie Hepburn
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“We have a full week left next week. The committee could request that witnesses give evidence on a day when it does not normally sit— that is entirely possible. Jamie Hepburn: I was going to come on to that. I recognise that point, and it was considered, given Ms Hamilton’s concerns.”
“The member will appreciate that the Government cannot compel a committee to undertake scrutiny that it does not want to undertake, and I do not think that Parliament would want the Government to do that.”
“The timing of the bill’s introduction—it was after the Scottish Parliament elections and during the period of Government formation—was always going to be challenging, but that has been compounded by the lack of prior engagement from the UK Government, despite its intent to expedite the passage of the Steel Industry (Nationalisation) Bill…”
“I recognise that it is regrettable that I must stand before Parliament today and ask that it suspend standing orders to allow the first motion on legislative consent in this parliamentary session to come straight to the chamber. By way of background, the UK Government introduced the Steel Industry (Nationalisation) Bill on 14 May 2026.”
“I believe that all of us in public life strive for that and that we have all been motivated to enter politics for those reasons. Maybe that is a reminder of the point that David Linden made about the common ground that exists between us all.”
“We should recognise the challenges that we face, but Adam Harley made an important point: that the general experience of being involved in politics is a good one. Just as he spoke of, I like nothing more than to engage with the constituents I represent in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. By and large, that is a positive experience.”
The complete record
Every one of 471 lines we hold for Jamie Hepburn, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 7 of 10.
“In relation to the sentencing and penal policy commission that the cabinet secretary mentioned, does she agree that it is incumbent on all parties and the Parliament as a whole to give proper consideration to its report, when it is available? Does she also agree that we should have a grown-up, measured and informed discussion on any recommendations that the commission produces, so that we can properly consider how we can have a safe prison environment that focuses on rehabilitation and reducing reoffending while also ensuring that justice is served? Angela Constance: Notwithstanding the heckling that I experienced earlier or, indeed, the fact that I raised my voice earlier, it behoves us all to raise our game and raise the debate.”
“What steps are being taken to ensure equality of access to services across different health board areas, so that young people can benefit from high-quality services irrespective of where they live in the country? Tom Arthur: That is a really important point, and I recognise that there is still variation. The national specification was published some five years ago, and we have seen strong progress among the overwhelming majority of health boards. Where there are still challenges, the Government and officials work closely with health boards to address them. I give the commitment to members that that is what we will continue to do.”
“Those measures all form part of a broader strategy, including the forthcoming national islands plan and rural delivery plan, which I have already mentioned. Together, those initiatives support equitable access to high-quality education across all parts of Scotland. Bullying (Schools) 6.”
“Will the minister set out how Scottish Government schemes, such as the preference waiver payment, assist in overcoming any challenges in education associated with geographical location? Natalie Don-Innes: The Scottish Government recognises the challenges that are posed by geographical location in delivering education, particularly in remote and rural areas. The preference waiver payment is an incentive to attract newly qualified teachers to more remote and rural local authorities that experience difficulties in securing probationers. Currently, the PWP is £6,000 per annum for primary teachers and £8,000 per annum for secondary teachers, and it is paid in addition to the probationer’s salary. It is complemented by the remote schools allowance and targeted funding to protect teacher numbers.”
“We want all local transport authorities to be able to improve their bus services, but it is for them to decide which powers, if any, are best to use to address the transport challenges in their areas. Highland Main Line (Dualling and Electrification) 2.”
“Many constituents are contacting me about the decline in services that are offered by the main commercial bus operators in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, which can mean that people need to travel for more than two hours to ensure that they are at their work in Glasgow by 9 am. What opportunities are presented by the new powers for local authorities that SPT can utilise to return to a more comprehensive bus network and promote public transport use? Jim Fairlie: The bus powers under the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 enable local transport authorities to determine the provision of services, the routes and frequency of services and the fare structures for services, as well as the types of vehicles that should be used on local roads.”
“We are exploring a future national approach to the placement of children in secure care that would involve that function being held by the national social work agency. The creation of a mechanism whereby a centralised approach was taken to the placement of children in secure care would assist placing authorities in securing a placement and would support better data collection. Consideration would still have to be given to the issues of resource, remit, functions and costs, but central co-ordination would certainly help to ensure that placement decisions were based on need, rather than geography or availability, which would promote fairness and reduce regional disparities in access to secure care.”
“Decisions on placing a child in secure care are currently taken locally, and the process involves those who work closely with and support the child and their family. In relation to the “Reimagining Secure Care” report, the minister spoke about the co-ordination of a national response to support the interests and needs of what is a small number of children and young people. Will she expand on that and set out what it might mean in practice? Natalie Don-Innes: Looking ahead, the Government remains absolutely committed to developing a more resilient and responsive system of secure care provision, with a strong emphasis on capacity preservation and placement management. Scotland’s secure care system does not currently have a placement commissioning mechanism or national oversight of placement decisions.”
“I did not always agree with them, but I do not believe for a minute that they would have lodged the motion that is before us today. The Tories should be utterly ashamed at their descent into Reform UK nonsense. 15:27”
“I also commend to colleagues the submission from the Scottish Refugee Council, which says: “Parliamentarians should set an example for the public when it comes to both challenging misinformation and avoiding the use of harmful misleading language.” It says that it is “disappointed to see this motion in the name of the Scottish Conservatives peddle the false link between people claiming asylum and illegal immigration.” I agree with Willie Rennie: there are members who sit on the Conservative benches, and who are not here today, who will be deeply embarrassed by the terms of the debate that their party has brought to the chamber. I have served in the Parliament for 18 years, with David McLetchie, Annabel Goldie and Ruth Davidson as leaders of the Conservative Party.”
“Jamie Hepburn: There is a deliberate conflation in the terminology— Russell Findlay: Will the member give way— yes or no? Jamie Hepburn: No, Mr Findlay. I think that I have been pretty clear that I am not giving way to Mr Findlay. There is a deliberate conflation in the motion of the terms “illegal immigration” and “asylum seekers”; I think that that has been done on purpose.”
“I absolutely recognise the right of each and every party to lodge any motion that it wants to debate in this place, but it is interesting that we have before us today a motion from the Tories the very first part of which relates to reserved subject matter. We are always being told that we should not be debating reserved subject matter in this place, but it seems that that rule can be dropped when it suits certain parties. It was interesting to hear from Russell Findlay. I agree with him that it is not racist to talk about immigration, but the terms on which we talk about it matter; they are important— Russell Findlay: Will the former minister take an intervention? Jamie Hepburn: In that sense, the terms of the Tory motion are found wanting— Russell Findlay: Will the member take an intervention?”
“If members do not want to take my word for it, I refer them to Shelter Scotland’s briefing, which says: “Recent debates around homelessness, the asylum system and refugee rights have regrettably led to misinformation being widely shared, specifically on local connection … In law, refugees have never been deemed to have a local connection on leaving asylum accommodation, and they have always been able” —I stress, they have always been able— “to apply to any council in Scotland. This has not changed.” The amendment in the name of Màiri McAllan is, therefore, factually correct. I want to speak to the nature of the debate. The discourse that we have in Parliament is important, because it can impact the discourse outside Parliament.”
“Russell Findlay: Will the member give way? Jamie Hepburn: No, I will not give way, because we have heard enough from Mr Findlay today. The context for those who are seeking to live in places such as Glasgow and other parts of this country is that they have had their claim for asylum recognised—they are no longer asylum seekers, and it is important that we get that on the record.”
“I rise to speak with some disappointment. The Tories’ current position has not always been their position, but their use of the discourse that we are hearing seems to be increasing. I oscillate between a sense of indignation and disappointment. I will try to confine my remarks to the disappointment, but I will first speak to the amendment in the name of Màiri McAllan, which I support. I will not speak about it for too long, but I observe that it is rooted in fact, and for that reason alone, we should all support it. The suspension of local connection rules for housing referrals in 2022 did not change the context of the rights of newly recognised refugees. I emphasise the term “refugee” because it is utterly absent from the Tory motion. I do not think that I have heard that term uttered once by members on their benches.”
“We must be realistic and recognise that context. All that said, I agree that on-going rail improvements across the country are important. I commend Ariane Burgess for securing the debate to make sure that the Parliament has the chance to consider how those might impact the Highlands, which she represents. 13:03”
“That programme electrified the line between our two main urban population centres; the line was constructed in 1842 but only, finally, electrified under this Government in 2016. I make that point to express sympathy for the necessity to consider further improvements on the Highland line and to underline the scale of the challenges. The challenges involved in improving our railways across the country are considerable, because of the decades-long underinvestment from which now, thankfully, under this Government, we are catching up. I see that I have to close, Presiding Officer. Another challenge on which we have to reflect is that there is significant pressure on capital budgets, which have become constrained for a variety of reasons, including the UK Government settlements and the pressures of inflation.”
“That investment speaks to one of the challenges that the Government has had to face in relation to rail transport, which is to undo some of the savagery of the Beeching cuts of the 1960s. As Ms Burgess alluded to in her motion and addressed directly in her speech, the other great challenge is that there have been decades of chronic underinvestment in our railways under previous United Kingdom Governments. That is the fact of the matter. I understand Ms Burgess’s point about Victorian infrastructure, and I reflect on that other great improvement, which relates directly to my constituency: the Edinburgh to Glasgow improvement programme, which electrified the line between our two main cities, and the Cumbernauld line, too.”
“I reflect that there has been a significant amount of investment in rail infrastructure in the past couple of decades. That includes investment in the Stirling to Alloa line, which can be accessed by my constituents from Croy railway station and which was reopened in 2008—I recognise that that work was begun under the previous Administration— and in the Borders railway. My wife is a Borderer and that is another part of the country that I travel to regularly. There have been great benefits to the communities in the south of Scotland from that improvement, which has just had its 10th anniversary. The Levenmouth railway reopened last year, which will alleviate some of the pressure of commuter traffic from Fife.”
“It is a wonderful part of our country and, more often than not, rail has been the mode of transport that I have used to get there. That has been for holidays—some of which I remember from my dim and distant childhood past and some of which have been taken more recently with my own family—or for work or, indeed, for the occasional party conference. I commend Inverness as a party-conference location and I hope that my party will return there at some point soon. I recognise that the rail line that we are debating is a social and economic lifeline for the Highlands. In that sense, I have great sympathy for the improvements that Ariane Burgess suggests. They could create benefits by improving journey times and reliability and reducing emissions.”
“I thank Ariane Burgess for securing the debate. I will start by saying something that is probably self-evident: I speak in the debate without much of a direct constituency interest—I see that Mr Leonard, too, is about to contribute, so I might not be alone in that regard. However, I am an enthusiast for rail travel; indeed, in recent weeks, I have become an even greater enthusiast for it. I freely concede that mine is a much shorter journey than the one that Ms Burgess has to undertake, but the railway is how I got to Edinburgh this morning and it is how I will get back home to Cumbernauld this evening. I am an enthusiast not only for rail but for the part of the country that Ms Burgess has the privilege to represent.”
“I want to raise a concern about the process. I have talked about it being a national fire service, but I have concerns that that is not being taken advantage of. This is a series of proposals that is often being presented in isolation. In this case, we know that changes in Glasgow might impact on the proposals for Lanarkshire. I have also been informed that Cumbernauld has one of the lowest call-out rates of any station in the country with two full-time fire appliances. That is welcome, but the community knows that the station is there when it is needed. Therefore, some of the proposals understandably cause concerns. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mr Hepburn, you need to conclude. Jamie Hepburn: I will continue to engage with the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to try to make sure that it makes the right decision for my constituency.”
“In particular, there was an emphasis that the changes that are being considered—we should say that they are only being considered at this stage—are about reshaping delivery in the context of a changed environment. That is instead of being in the context of seeking to— Monica Lennon: Will Jamie Hepburn take an intervention? The Deputy Presiding Officer: The member will be concluding shortly. Jamie Hepburn: I am afraid that I do not have time to take an intervention, but I will be happy to engage with Ms Lennon on this issue in any other fashion. Maybe we can work together on the issue. The specific proposal for Cumbernauld is for there to be a reduction from two full-time crews on a 24-7 basis to one full-time crew on a 24-7 basis with another part-time on-call crew operating on evenings and weekends.”
“It would be remiss of me to not put on the record my thanks to the fire service personnel who responded to that incident. I will touch on the service delivery review in relation to how it impacts my constituency. I understand—we hear this often enough—that we expect public services to be led in a way that is independent of ministerial direction. That is what we generally hear in relation to the Fire and Rescue Service, Police Scotland, the national health service and other public services. I understand that the process is being undertaken in that context. I have written to the minister about the review and I am grateful for the reply that I have had.”
“This April, in common with many other parts of the country, we experienced a wildfire—that was in the Palacerigg locality of Cumbernauld on 10 April. That required a significant response from the Fire and Rescue Service, with the deployment of firefighters from Cumbernauld and other stations. Many of those stations are in what was the Strathclyde fire service area, while some— Slamannan, Denny and Larbert—are based in the former Central Scotland fire service region. I am not suggesting for a moment that that type of cross-border deployment did not previously happen. However, in my engagement with the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, I am told that that process of deployment is far easier to achieve now. That is one practical example of an improved service, which is in the shape of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service.”
“I join others in welcoming the debate. I am grateful to Katy Clark for lodging the motion, which touches on an important issue that is local to my constituency. Indeed, I have heard Mr Leonard and Ms Lennon mention Cumbernauld, which they do not often do. I commend to them mentioning Cumbernauld a little more often in this place. First, I will try to place my remarks in some context. The motion refers to the 12 years that we have had a national fire service through the formation of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. I concur with what the minister said at the outset— I think that, overall, it has been a success story. It has enabled a more responsive fire service in many instances. I will cite a specific example in my area.”
“Amendment 46 disagreed to. Section 46—New pitch fees: considerations The Presiding Officer: Group 21 is on mobile homes. Amendment 52, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is grouped with amendments 53 to 59.”
“For Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 46, Against 64, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 333 disagreed to. Amendment 334 moved—[Maggie Chapman]— and agreed to. Amendment 46 moved—[Maggie Chapman]. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 46 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am afraid that I was unable to vote. I would have voted no. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Hepburn. We will ensure that that is recorded. For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Abstentions Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 10, Against 85, Abstentions 13.”
“I regret that lapse in my normal conduct last week—I hope that people would recognise that I would not normally conduct myself in such a fashion—and I apologise to all colleagues.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I promise not to detain colleagues for too long; I know that we will be busy this evening. Thank you, Presiding Officer, for allowing me to make this point of order. As you are aware, we spoke yesterday and you said that it would be okay for me to do so. I rise to refer to my conduct last week, which precipitated my standing down from ministerial office. I have apologised directly to Mr Ross. I reiterate that apology now. I have apologised to the First Minister and, yesterday, I apologised to you, Presiding Officer. I think that it is appropriate, though, that I also apologise to the chamber and to all colleagues. To those of us who love this institution, it is important that we all act in a manner that does not bring it into disrepute.”
“I will do what Mr Ross did not, which is to speak to the business motion that is before us. As an aside, the Tories have a new business manager. I cannot say that it speaks much for Mr Ross’s confidence in him that he decided not to speak to his business manager about raising the matter with me.”
“Nairn and Inverness’s business improvement districts were involved in trying to set the summit up, and they are now considering whether they should even go to it. In the business motion, I want to see the Scottish Government postpone the Tuesday summit, make a statement to the Parliament next week on its postponement, and set out what it will do to make the summit truly open and reflective. It must allow members of the public to give their views directly to the minister, so that he does not sit behind a closed door in NatureScot’s headquarters and listen only to people with whom he agrees or who agree with him, but that he instead listens to the public.”
“The Presiding Officer: Just for clarity for all members, this is an opportunity to speak to items that members wish to see in a future business programme. Douglas Ross: That is exactly what I want. It is important to set this out as an issue because, at the moment, the Scottish National Party minister will be going ahead with something that does not meet any of the conditions that he set. The summit will not be independently chaired; it will be chaired by the minister for a short period, then he will be jumping into his ministerial car and heading down the road again. It will not be held at a neutral venue; it will be held at the headquarters of NatureScot, which has been the biggest blocker throughout the whole process, and it will not be made open to the public.”
“Jamie Hepburn: I just wonder at what stage Mr Ross might speak to the business motion that is before us. As an aside, I say that I have not had any request sent to me for a statement on the matter. As a matter of public record, it is important to make that point. Douglas Ross: In the next three minutes, I will get there, because we have up to five minutes. The reason why there has not been a statement request is that I was looking at other opportunities. I put in a topical question request, and I put in an urgent question request yesterday, and one today. Those were not selected, so I am now using the opportunity that is afforded to every MSP to speak for up to five minutes on a topic of their choice that they would like to see in the business motion.”
“Will the member give way? Douglas Ross: I will give way in a moment. I am glad that the minister is interested in this, because the Government has not been, so far. The summit will not involve listening to the public, who have repeatedly been raising concerns about the issue. The point about the location is important, because Fergus Ewing wrote to the minister and asked for the summit to be held in a neutral venue. He suggested Eden Court, but NatureScot said that it must be held at Great Glen house so that there would be a broadband connection to live stream the summit to a wider audience. This week, NatureScot has said that it now refuses to live stream the summit, so the whole reason for having it at its headquarters has now been thrown out. On that point, I will give way to the minister.”
“I imagine that all parliamentarians, including Mr Lumsden, want to avoid that. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S6M-18786 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system. 17:11 Meeting suspended. 17:15 On resuming— The Presiding Officer: We come to the vote on motion S6M-18786, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on changes to the business programme. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.”
“Given that the bill is about to reach the last amending stage, it would be desirable for Parliament to consider whether its views can still influence the final form of the bill. The only way to achieve that is to suspend standing orders so that the LCM can be taken in the chamber without committee consideration. However, the committee’s views were sought and its views were that, given the time constraints, the best option would be to vary standing orders to allow the LCM to be taken directly in the chamber. If Parliament does not get the opportunity to debate the motion on legislative consent tomorrow, there is the risk that the bill, as amended, proceeds to royal assent without this Parliament having had the opportunity to consider the matter and grant its consent.”
“It is important that we place the amendment to business in its proper context. The report stage for the bill that the LCM relates to is in the House of Commons tomorrow. Therefore, the LCM requires expedited consideration by Parliament, because the amendment that triggers the requirement for legislative consent has been tabled at this late stage in the bill’s passage, and the United Kingdom Government is seeking assurances that the Scottish Parliament is granting its consent and that it will be secured before amending stages are complete. The amendment is important because it helps to further our collective ambition to tackle climate change and facilitate the uptake of zero emission buses.”
“The Scottish ministers would seek to ensure that the Scottish Parliament had the opportunity to assess any changes in good time. We recognise the importance of parliamentary scrutiny, and we will make sure that that is possible in this case. With that, I urge the Parliament to agree to the motion in my name. The Presiding Officer: The question on the motion will be put at decision time. Business Motion 21:36”
“First, the committee asked how it will be decided which Government will exercise the delegated powers that are set out in the bill. I say to the Parliament that the Scottish Government intends to make the regulations under the power in the bill. Those will be subject to agreement by the UK Government, but they will be laid in the Scottish Parliament in the usual way. The committee also asked how scrutiny by the Scottish Parliament of the policy position of those regulations will be ensured when the power is exercised by a minister of the Crown. The Scottish Government intends to exercise those powers to implement online applications for absent voting in devolved Scottish elections, and we would expect any future changes by a minister to be the subject of engagement and agreement.”
“I thank Martin Whitfield and the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee for the report that has been laid before the Parliament. I am sure that everyone has read it as assiduously as I have. The committee has considered the matter at pace. I am grateful for that. Mr Whitfield made the point that, this morning, the Government received a copy of a letter from the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, which asked a couple of questions. As Mr Whitfield mentioned, I responded to that letter today. I would have been very happy to go to the committee to speak to the matter, but it wrote to me and I responded today. I will place on record some of the points that were raised by the committee, and how I responded.”
“I thank Martin Whitfield for giving me the opportunity to speak a little more—I will not speak for long—about the legislative consent motion. I should say that it was the Government's preference for there to be a section 30 order to transfer responsibility to this Parliament to legislate on the matter. That was the approach that I and the Government would have preferred but, unfortunately, the UK Government would not agree, which is regrettable. I am genuinely grateful to Tracy Gilbert MP for taking the bill forward. It is important that we make it as straightforward as possible for voters in Scotland to be able to apply for a postal or proxy vote. This bill, should it pass through the UK Parliament, will achieve that.”
“Any attempt to curtail or constrain this afternoon’s debate will be entirely counterproductive, because it will only feed the growing reputation that this Parliament has for predetermined outcomes and performative scrutiny—[Laughter.] Well, if members think that it is performative to seek to improve—”
“Will the member take an intervention? Stephen Kerr: Of course I will. I assume that this will be deducted from my allocated time. Jamie Hepburn: I just rise to point out that I do not think that it is just me who has that perspective. [Applause.] Stephen Kerr: I am sure that everyone who is watching—I will qualify that: anyone who is watching—will be interested to see how much the Scottish National Party does not want the bill to be scrutinised. The reality is that it should be scrutinised. We have a duty as members of this Parliament to scrutinise the bills that come before us, and that is exactly what I intend to do.”
“The fundamental point is that, in opposing the motion, he is seeking to deny the Parliament the opportunity to even consider whether we should grant legislative consent. I am not clear whether the convener realises that that is what he is doing, but that is what he is seeking to do. I understand, and it is regrettable, that the committee feels that it has not had the time to fully consider the issue. I respectfully say that the matter is not entirely in the gift of the Scottish Government—the bill is being considered by the UK Parliament. The UK Parliament determines its own timescale; that is not determined by the”
“Let me be clear that the effect of not suspending standing orders in this instance would be to deny Parliament that opportunity, and it is almost inevitable that the UK Parliament would continue to press ahead with the legislation without our even having had the opportunity to say whether we grant consent. Finlay Carson: I do not know whether the minister listened to my speech. The issue is not about this particular legislative consent memorandum; it is about the principle of the Government putting forward LCMs for the consideration of the Parliament and not giving sufficient time for the Parliament to undertake its duty to scrutinise those LCMs adequately. Jamie Hepburn: I have heard the convener very clearly, but I do not know whether he was listening to me.”
“I recognise any member’s right to speak against any motion that has been presented before the Parliament, and I recognise any member’s right to vote against a legislative consent motion or against the varying or suspension of standing orders. I recognise the right of any committee to determine not to report on a legislative consent memorandum, but I highlight—this speaks to the point that has just been made by the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee’s convener—the role of this Parliament. I am concerned that, if we did not agree to the motion to suspend standing orders, we would be denying the Parliament the collective opportunity to consider whether to grant legislative consent to the UK Parliament. I do not think that we should deny it that opportunity.”
“On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am afraid that I cannot tell whether my vote has gone through, but I would have voted no. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Hepburn. Your vote was, in fact, recorded.”