Ben Macpherson
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“It would be helpful to understand from the member’s supplementary question what he means by degrees that “offer limited value”, so that we can understand the point that he is trying to make. Thomas Kerr: I will get a list over to the minister. I am always happy to educate the education front bench about pointless degrees.”
“I am sure that, collectively, we all want to congratulate the 2024-25 school leavers, 93.5 per cent of whom were in a positive destination nine months after leaving school. We will also, I am sure, want to recognise together the dedication of the practitioners who supported them to achieve that.”
“Can he guarantee that every pound that has been allocated to apprenticeships is being spent on apprenticeship training, rather than elsewhere in the education budget?”
“This year, building on previous work and initiatives, the Scottish Government has introduced a new Government-led skills planning model—which has been developed in close partnership with stakeholders, including those in industry—to ensure that our post-school education and skills system becomes even more responsive to Scotland’s strategic…”
“We want to support all our young people to choose a pathway that suits their strengths and enables them to fulfil their potential to the greatest extent, developing their skills and critical thinking. Our all-age careers support, delivered by Skills Development Scotland and other partners, promotes every pathway to our young people.”
“Ben Macpherson: Daniel Johnson knows that I like to be constructive in my dialogue in the chamber, but I must gently point out that one of the key problems that those in industry have emphasised to me is the impact of the national insurance increase, as well as other pressures and costs that have affected the number of apprenticeship star…”
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“We have made real progress, but we are also at a very fragile time, particularly when it comes to boys. Some of the influences around them in modern Scotland try to lead our society towards regression. Online influences—some influencers are well known—can be very harmful and are very worrying. All of that feeds into the greater challenge presented by a number of younger people in our society. They might have situations around them that have made their lives challenging, but they are engaging in some really challenging behaviour, whether that is violence or theft. The youth summit update that we received earlier today in Parliament was really helpful, because this is all connected, including the issue of violence in schools.”
“The Scottish Government is exercising leadership to challenge the underpinning issues that affect the safety of women and girls in our society, which, as has been emphasised already, involve the behaviour of men and boys. We have made much progress, but there is more to do— that is absolutely certain. Let me be clear: if they had this opportunity, most men and boys would speak as passionately as me about the need for greater equality and in support of women and girls. Of course, there are still social attitudes and behaviours that are counterproductive and negative and which cause great harm to women and girls in our society, so we must continue to challenge that behaviour in men and boys, and we must do so proactively, passionately and strategically.”
“Much has been said in the debate already about the progress that has been made in multiple areas, including social security, pay and equality— whether financial or in terms of opportunity. I absolutely celebrate all that and welcome the Government’s statements on the progress that it wants to continue to make and that Parliament wants to be made. Hard-won progress has been achieved, and we rightly recognise that today, as well as reflecting on what more needs to be done. One of the priorities in the advisory council’s recommendations is the issue of attitudinal shifts. Other speakers have talked about that already, and I will focus the remainder of my remarks in that space.”
“I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this important debate on progressing the recommendations on equality that have been made by the National Advisory Council on Women and Girls. The National Advisory Council on Women and Girls was formed as a catalyst for change and as an organisation that could address gender inequality and provide independent strategic advice to the First Minister and the wider Scottish Government. Since it was formed in 2017, it has made a series of recommendations to tackle gender inequality across Scotland, with a particular focus on creating the leadership, culture and systems that are required to enable women and girls to be better prioritised and responded to in the right ways.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on how it is assessing the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service’s capacity to provide emergency response cover and ensure community safety in Edinburgh, including in relation to meeting any needs resulting from population growth in the Lothians. (S6O- 04819)”
“The Presiding Officer: That concludes decision time. RAAC in Council and Former Council Housing”
“Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees that the Deposit and Return Scheme for Scotland Amendment Regulations 2025 [draft] be approved. The Presiding Officer: Unless any member objects, I propose to ask a single question on two Parliamentary Bureau motions. As no member objects, the final question is, that motions S6M-18006, on approval of an SSI, and S6M-18007, on designation of a lead committee, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, be agreed to. Motions agreed to, That the Parliament agrees that the Environmental Regulation (Enforcement Measures) (Scotland) Amendment Order 2025 [draft] be approved. That the Parliament agrees that the Finance and Public Administration Committee be designated as the lead committee in consideration of the Building Safety Levy (Scotland) Bill at stage 1.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on motion S6M-18005, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on approval of an SSI, is: For 112, Against 2, Abstentions 0.”
“Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees that the Deposit and Return Scheme for Scotland (Designation of Scheme Administrator) Order 2025 [draft] be approved. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S6M-18005, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on approval of an SSI, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“Motion, as amended, agreed to, That the Parliament recognises the significance of the defence industry to Scotland’s economy, in providing secure, well-paid and highly skilled jobs and in driving innovation in the science, technology, engineering and maths (STEM) sector; and in protecting national security, especially at a time of increased global instability, and notes that defence is a matter reserved to the UK Government under the Scotland Act 1998 and that the Scottish Government’s long-standing position is that public money should focus on diversification. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S6M-18004, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on approval of a Scottish statutory instrument, be agreed to.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on motion S6M-17981, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on recognising the economic contribution of Scotland’s defence sector, as amended, is: For 62, Against 53, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment disagreed to. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S6M-17981, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on recognising the economic contribution of Scotland’s defence sector, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Please record a no vote. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Macpherson. We will ensure that that is recorded. For Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on amendment S6M-17981.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 7, Against 108, Abstentions 0.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on planned capital investment in the Seafield waste water treatment works, including the no regrets funding commitment and what consideration is being given to further investment after the private finance initiative contract ends, to meet the needs of population growth, climate change and the Edinburgh waterfront development. (S6O-04794)”
“As of 5 June, we had received 83 expressions of interest, of which 36 were from registered social landlords. By the end of this month, we will move into stage 2, offering support for necessary mitigation and remediation works that are based on the assessments, and increasing their pace and breadth. The estimates that were published on Thursday highlight again that the problem of combustible cladding on Scotland’s buildings is substantial. With the tools in place, we can now successfully respond. I will take up Mr Macpherson’s point about LBTT with the appropriate minister and respond to him in due course.”
“Will the minister outline further details of the next phase of the £10 million scheme and when it will be reopened? Will he also look again at exempting from the land and buildings transaction tax additional dwelling supplement people that are affected by cladding that need or want to move, such as some of my constituents who were affected by the Breadalbane Street fire last year? Paul McLennan: We are building on the essential statutory foundations that we put in place to rapidly address the risks associated with combustible cladding. We expect all building owners to take appropriate steps, and we are encouraging them and supporting them practically to do so. In late March, we launched a new single open call, backed with £10 million of funding for statutory assessments.”
“To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Government is supporting film and TV production in Edinburgh and throughout Scotland. (S6F-04160)”
“Members of the business community and successful businesspeople are leaving because of the SNP’s tax regime. Lorna Slater: I have great difficulty in understanding why Rachael Hamilton brings that evidence. Even someone earning more £100,000 in Scotland pays a fraction of that more in income tax, whereas in Scotland we have free university tuition, baby boxes, free prescriptions and cheaper house prices than in many parts of the UK. The overall cost of living in Scotland is lower, and any businessperson who cannot do that math strikes me as not being very credible. [Interruption.] Living in Scotland is a very good deal. If we look at all the advantages that we get—everything from free social care to free bus passes for our kids—it adds up to a significant sum in social benefit. [Interruption.]”
“One of the things that I would like to do in my closing speech is challenge some of what passes as economic orthodoxy that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon—namely, the idea that everybody moves around the world for tax advantages only and that everybody only wants money, and that that is their primary goal. I have an advantage over many of the members across the chamber who made that claim, as I moved to Scotland specifically to bring my skills as an engineer here and to be part of Scotland. I did that not because I thought that it would make me more money, but because the lifestyle that we enjoy in Scotland—a social democratic country and a small nation with big connections—is so powerful. Rachael Hamilton: Has the member heard of something called tax flight? That is happening in Scotland right now.”
“Lorna Slater: I was actually referring to the conversation in today’s committee meeting about the Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill itself and how, as currently drafted, its provisions are about putting the onus on public sector bodies such as our enterprise agencies to pivot. Both in the chamber and in the Economy and Fair Work Committee, we have talked about mainstreaming alternative business models. What Michelle Thomson says is also true; maybe we were just identifying different parts of this morning’s committee conversation.”
“People come here to start businesses, to live well and to enjoy themselves, and that is a great place to build from. 16:30 Lorna Slater: I invite Michelle Thomson to make the intervention that she was unable to make in my opening speech, if she is willing to do so. Michelle Thomson: That is very kind—I really appreciate it. Lorna Slater mentioned this morning’s meeting of the Economy and Fair Work Committee, and I was going to point out that the witnesses were really talking about the large-scale lenders making the shift. It is really important for us to bear that in mind in relation to what we are able to influence in this Parliament, as I think that the reference to that kind of large-scale corporate lending was drawn from the United States. My intervention was just to make a clarification.”
“Some people champion build to rent, which has a role in our housing market, but it is a model for transient workers. We need to think about how to build capacity for those who stay for longer. Build to rent is not a panacea to solve the housing crisis, although it plays a part. The challenges for the hospitality sector have been articulated in the chamber in a number of different ways. In Edinburgh, although there is huge demand for hospitality businesses, their costs can be higher because of property values. We cannot take the hospitality sector in our capital city for granted. For example, the shore area in Leith is thriving, but there is a vulnerability about it because of the challenges of the national insurance hike and general economic conditions.”
“My constituency highlights—other members have said this—the fact that we need to apply our attention to two things: people’s skills and place. The reason that so many people base themselves and their businesses in Edinburgh and my constituency is because of the quality of life here. A lot of that is to do with affordability, which is why the housing situation that we face is so important. People have been establishing and creating businesses in our capital city because it has been affordable and, compared with elsewhere, has provided a high quality of life and services. That is why we need to think about issues such as housing market diversity and LBTT and why we need to give particular consideration to Edinburgh and its housing crisis.”
“It is a fact, as Willie Rennie said, that Edinburgh, and its university, is important to Scotland’s economy. As an Edinburgh MSP, that is of particular interest to me. Recently, a lot has been said—rightly—about the reindustrialisation of Leith, the massive renewable hub growth that is taking place at the port, the opportunities and innovations there, the diversity of that economy and how it has the potential to grow. The creative industries—film, television production and other aspects of that part of the economy—thrive in my constituency, and the capacity for growth is really interesting. The cabinet secretary mentioned tech and computer games. Build a Rocket Boy is based in Leith, and Skyscanner started in Leith, years ago.”
“This is an important debate, and there is not enough time to discuss all the different ways in which a culture of creation and a mindset of entrepreneurship are thriving in Scotland. However, what could we do to continue to enhance that culture, how do we create an even better environment for sustainable growth, and how do we make our country an even better place in which to live and do business? As has been touched on, Scotland has the talent, skills and facilities to be one of Europe’s fastest-growing start-up economies, because it starts from a position of strength. Although it is interesting to look at other nations’ models, as other members have done, we need to consider the context, which is that we are a devolved nation, while Ireland and Singapore, for example, have very different circumstances and constitutional arrangements.”
“Scotland is second to no country in the world when it comes to people, but the SNP Government has cut vital skills and education programmes every time that it could. What Foysol Choudhury had to say about that was absolutely right. I have run out of time, but I am grateful for the opportunity to speak. I hope that Kate Forbes can lead the resistance in the SNP Government to restore capitalism and enterprise to the vocabulary of this country’s Government. 16:26”
“We have to learn the lessons that are on offer from our experience of what has happened in recent years. We can talk about migration—the Greens love to talk about mass migration, as do some SNP MSPs—but we should be talking about our broken education system, which Foysol Choudhury talked about. We have people in this country who are sitting doing nothing or who are—this is a bigger crime, in many respects—massively underemployed, which is because we have not got the skills economy correct. If you want an enterprise economy and a growing economy, you do not cut budgets that relate to building education and skills, yet the SNP cut those things. You can dress it up in any fancy language you like, but we are talking about our people and their get-up-and-go, ideas, energies and creativity.”
“Year after year, there is net migration to Scotland, and the figures for people coming to Scotland are pretty similar to the figures for people coming to the north of England, so it is unfair to characterise the Scottish migration position in the way that Stephen Kerr has done. Given that immigration policy is reserved, surely the policies of the Home Office play a role in the problem that he has identified. Stephen Kerr: The problem in the Home Office is that there has been too much immigration. This is one of my frustrations—I am not a member of Parliament for the north-east of England, so, to be completely frank, I am not particularly bothered about the north-east of England; I am partial to Scotland, so I want to look at what is happening in Scotland.”
“There will be a brief pause before we move to the next item of business to allow for a changeover of front- bench teams. Empowering Entrepreneurs and Innovators”
“Graeme Dey: I set out in my original answer the support that is currently available for the wellbeing of students, teachers and early-career teachers. I can confirm that we are considering what further support might be provided. I note Ben Macpherson’s comments about the role of the GTCS in exit interviews, but the employers in this context are councils, so it is perhaps most appropriate that such work sits with them. I will ask education officials to ascertain to what extent that is happening and whether the data is being collated. I will undertake to apprise Mr Macpherson of the progress and consideration of possible further support. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes portfolio questions on education and skills.”
“Student teachers can also engage directly with the General Teaching Council for Scotland, which provides a range of wellbeing resources and advice to support early career teachers. Ben Macpherson: Some constituents have raised concerns with me about the treatment and experiences of trainee and newly qualified teachers, and they report a lack of support. I have been told that the GTCS does not conduct exit interviews or gather data on the reasons why teachers leave the profession. Considering all that, will the minister advise what actions universities and placement schools should be taking to support student teacher mental health and wellbeing? Can any further relevant consideration be given to supporting trainee and newly qualified teachers to help to ensure that committed, capable and passionate people remain in the profession?”
“To ask the Scottish Government how it is working with universities and placement schools to support the mental health and wellbeing of student teachers. (S6O-04759) The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey): We recognise the vital role that mental health and wellbeing support play in ensuring that student teachers can thrive in their professional development. Universities have a responsibility to provide wellbeing services for all their students, including those who are undertaking teacher training. While they are on placement, student teachers are supervised and supported by a registered teacher, which ensures that they receive guidance and mentorship, and that supports their growth and wellbeing.”
“There are also other interventions, such as the quit fighting for likes campaign. Fatal Accident Inquiries (Statutory Grounds) 5.”
“It is widely understood that good youth work and innovative initiatives can have a positive impact on young people who may be engaged in violence or drawn into it. Therefore, can the Scottish Government advise when the next youth violence summit will take place and say more about what urgent action will be taken to expand prevention measures and early intervention? Angela Constance: The next youth violence summit will take place in the next week or so, and it will have a particular focus on the value of youth work interventions. The Scottish Government will continue to invest in interventions that are successful in engaging and educating our young people. I hope that we have demonstrated that through our on-going commitment and the recent announcement that the minister made about the cashback for communities scheme.”
“The fact that 77 per cent of the recipients of multiyear funding represent organisations that focus on exhibitions, events and performances underlines our emphasis on supporting local platforms across”
“Does the cabinet secretary agree that local events, such as the Leith festival, the north Edinburgh community festival, the Newhaven gala and other, similar gatherings around the country play an important role in promoting small businesses, supporting artists and community groups, and helping to foster a sense of community cohesion and pride? Angus Robertson: Ben Macpherson is absolutely right to mention events in Edinburgh Northern and Leith. I add to that list the Meadows festival in Edinburgh Central—of course, other festivals are available throughout the rest of the country. The Scottish Government is committed to supporting a thriving music industry in Scotland, including grass-roots music venues, which are key for emerging Scottish talent.”
“I am grateful to Maurice Golden, Ben Macpherson and others for highlighting the urgent need for cultural change in the Parliament—we have work to do. We need our staff—our clerks, researchers and communications teams—to be trained, supported and trusted to design participatory processes with care and creativity. Deliberative democracy is not about a single event; it is about shifting the centre of gravity in our politics and building a culture in which people are not passive recipients of decisions but co- creators of them. In a climate crisis, a housing crisis and a crisis of political trust, that is not a luxury but a necessity. It is time that we built a democracy that is fit for the challenges of our time—one that is messy, inclusive, imperfect and alive. Let us not settle for anything less. 16:29”
“Schools, youth groups and community colleges can host mini-deliberations on parliamentary issues with outcomes fed into relevant committees. That would not just be about gathering views; it would be about building democratic literacy and belonging. It would tell young people, “Your voice matters, and this Parliament is yours, too.” It would say that decision-making is for everybody, not just for the handful of us who are lucky enough to be in the Parliament. We must also support the skills and systems to deliver that well. Deliberation needs resourcing, but, more than that, it needs cultural change. It needs us, as elected members, to be open to being challenged, to listen with humility and to accept that good ideas might come from outside these walls.”
“To achieve that, we must embed elements of deliberation across more of the Parliament’s work. Not every issue needs a full citizens panel, but we can make our processes more deliberative and participatory across the board. Imagine committee inquiries that begin not just with scoping sessions among MSPs but with co- designed workshops involving people with lived experience. Imagine evidence sessions that include structured public dialogue facilitated by trained staff. Imagine brief micro-panels, if you like, of five or six people who are randomly selected but supported to offer reflections before or after committee scrutiny. Those would be small but meaningful steps. We can also think about deliberative tools in education.”
“We cannot just hold a panel, publish a report and then walk away; that would be performative, and our people deserve better. Every deliberative process must end not with thanks but with action: clear commitments, transparent responses and, perhaps most critically, mechanisms for feedback, so that participants know how their voices were heard and what came of their contributions, as Jackson Carlaw indicated earlier. That is particularly important if we want deliberation to be widely available. If people do not see any outcomes, they will disengage. If only a few privileged topics get deliberative space, we will entrench inequality. The process must be accessible to rural communities, marginalised groups, disabled people and migrants—those who are traditionally excluded from political spaces.”
“Imagine a standing citizens assembly—a permanent, resourced body of everyday Scots that is reflective of our communities and has the power to set, as well as respond to, priorities. Such an assembly would not just advise the Parliament; it could identify areas that require urgent attention, issues that have not yet reached our radar, gaps in policy and deep-rooted structural problems that our current systems gloss over. Whether it is food insecurity, youth mental health or the democratic deficit in local government, communities know where the pain points are—we should create space for them to tell us. However, we must also always remember that deliberation is not a destination; it is a method and an approach. There must always be what I would call an off-ramp—a clear pathway from conversation to change.”
“As someone who has sought different ways to include people in our decision making, I am pleased to have been part of this debate. If we truly believe that deliberative democracy strengthens scrutiny, renews trust and revitalises participation, we must be bold enough to ask what more we can do. Deliberation cannot be a bolt-on or something that happens only when committees choose to use it; it must become part of the fabric of how this Parliament listens, learns and leads. That means going further. We must reimagine where ideas come from. Too often, the agenda is set from the top—from Government priorities, committee timetables or legislative calendars—but deliberative democracy offers us the opportunity to turn that on its head.”
“It became possible only because of the dedication and determination of a council officer, and it continues to this day in the form of the Leith chooses initiative. I remember making the case for giving members of the public the power to choose how a small amount of money should be spent in their area. That required an acknowledgement that we as politicians should pass on some of our power to the people whom we represent. I also remember those who were very resistant to that. They were wary of the time and resources that it took to organise, they were worried about losing control of decision making and they were not sure about trusting our citizens with what was a very small amount of power. They asked, “What if they make the wrong decisions?” Of course, we politicians never make wrong decisions.”
“If members want to see that people think that the way that we do things at the moment is wrong, they should just turn around to look at the young people and other folk in the public gallery. Members should speak to their constituents and ask them whether we could do the way that we debate things better. Most of the time, they will say yes, and those are the answers that we need to look for. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We now come to the closing speeches, and there is no time left in hand. I call Maggie Chapman to speak for up to six minutes. 16:22 Maggie Chapman: Donkeys years ago, during my first term as an Edinburgh councillor, I was proud to be the first elected representative to bring in a participatory budgeting project—the Leith decides initiative.”
“The point has rightly been made about how much people see of what happens in the Parliament. Most people do not tune in for some of our best work, whether that is at committee or in certain debates in the chamber, but see only a clip on the evening news. The way that proceedings are structured, including the culture of how First Minister’s question times are organised and the routines and habits that have been set, is not representative of what most people want, which is for their politicians to be serious and constructive, work together, achieve things, determine solutions and then deliver them. Much more could be achieved—in how we present our democracy and engage people with it—if we did things slightly differently in the proceedings that most people watch.”
“However, the bigger concern, which I share with him and other members, is how few people actually watch any of this chamber’s proceedings. Viewership is decreasing, so the bigger issue that we need to tackle is the relevance, topicality and viewability— if that is a word—of this Parliament. Ben Macpherson: That is a good intervention, and I am grateful for it, because it allows me to talk about something that I wanted to mention. What does grip people? All my experience outside of this Parliament tells me that what people want from their politicians is genuine collaboration, care for those whom they represent, a sense of duty to the public interest, and for them not to play the political game of getting one over on the other party, person or idea. The issues that we face are serious, and the public know that.”
“I have had concerns, since way before I was elected, that although FMQs is the most prominent shop window for our Parliament, it does not show us at our best. It is about the amplification of conflict, which is unnecessary, and the spin game, as another speaker put it. It is about giving more consideration to what is being thought up there, in the press gallery, than to what is being thought up there, in the public gallery. We have to improve that, given the seriousness of the times, as others have articulated. However, no matter how much we are all working hard to do good engagement, if our constituents are seeing only a snapshot of their democracy that shows politicians taking lumps out of each other for party- political gain, that does not show us at our best. Stephen Kerr: As usual, Ben Macpherson is making a very thoughtful speech.”
“Next time you are the bus stop in Leith—I should maybe upgrade that to tram stop now—ask yourself, “Could I explain the policy that we’re talking about in those terms?” In many ways, we do participation well here in the Scottish Parliament. However, I will conclude by touching on how we could do it better, which will connect with what a lot of other colleagues have said. Although we have reminders in the chamber architecture of those whom we represent, when I am in here but not speaking, I often turn my head to look behind me, at the public gallery. Covid had a negative effect for us in here, because we did not have people up there enough during the pandemic years, although that was understandable. We maybe did not turn our heads quite as often as we should have. I look up at the public gallery during FMQs in particular.”
“That is the work of politics just as much as what happens in here. The Scottish Parliament has a lot to be proud of in that space. The blueprint, and the proposed extra engagement of people’s panels, will help with that. It is also about communicating in a way that is helpful for creating greater engagement. I have spoken before in the Parliament of what I call the “Leith Walk test”, which is where if you cannot explain something quickly in passing to someone on Leith Walk, your communication is not effective enough. When you are dealing with the complexity of reserved powers, devolved powers and local authority powers, that is sometimes difficult. We can improve things, but we have done some things well.”
“The fact that that happened at the official opening of the Parliament symbolised just how accessible this chamber is— we opened the doors and let the people in. Much good has been done. The work of the people’s panels that is summarised in the report, and the propositions in the blueprint, speak well to that. I am also thinking of examples of what we as a Parliament have mandated the Government to do. The experience panels of Social Security Scotland have provided invaluable insights in the creation of our new social security system, utilising the powers of the Scotland Act 2016. Other members have talked about the importance of us going into the community and being accessible, whether that is in the supermarket, doing our surgeries, being out and about attending community events, supporting organisations, or doing wider engagement.”