← LEADERSHIP TERMINAL

UK PARLIAMENT · FORMER

Jenny Gilruth

Scottish National Party · Scotland

IN THEIR OWN WORDS

I thank Pam Gosal for bringing this debate to Parliament and for sponsoring the recent round-table discussion on the topic, which I was pleased to attend, along with colleagues from across the Parliament. There is now a growing consensus on the issue.

MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2026-03-25 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

Back in 2024, the Government published updated national guidance in which I was clear that any headteacher would have my full backing as Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills should they see fit to implement a ban, but that decision was ultimately left to headteachers’ discretion.

MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2026-03-25 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

As a result of Parliament’s close scrutiny, I believe that we have produced a stronger bill that is consistent with the initial intentions behind it.

MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2026-03-24 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

I thank Daniel Johnson for his commitment in bringing forward the legislation on restraint and seclusion that is before us today. I applaud his approach to working with the Government and I encourage more such good behaviour in the coming parliamentary session.

MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2026-03-24 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

The Education, Children and Young People Committee’s stage 1 report and members’ speeches in the stage 1 debate highlighted clear support for the bill’s general principles.

MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2026-03-24 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

That principle, which underpinned the national guidance that was issued in 2024, remains central today. The Scottish Government’s original intention was to conclude the review of our 2024 guidance before determining whether legislation was required.

MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2026-03-24 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

The complete record

Every one of 653 lines we hold for Jenny Gilruth, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 11 of 14.

  1. The responsibility for that mess lies with the Scottish National Party Government, which has slashed council budgets, presided over a decline in Scottish education and piled ever more responsibilities on to our teachers. In his letter, headteacher Seán Hagney apologises for the disruption to learning. Will the cabinet secretary join him in apologising? Jenny Gilruth: Mr Marra highlights an issue that I note has received press coverage in today’s The Courier. I have asked my officials to engage substantively with Dundee City Council. I remind Mr Marra of local authorities’ statutory responsibilities with regard to the delivery of education.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-03 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  2. The Scottish Government has provided local authorities with £186.5 million of increased funding this year as part of our agreement with local government to restore teacher numbers to 2023 levels. There is an additional £28 million in the budget to provide for additional support for learning, which can be used flexibly by our councils to invest in extra teachers in secondary schools, including in Dundee. The overall number of teachers in Scotland’s classrooms has increased by more than 2,500 over the past decade as a result of direct Scottish Government investment. Michael Marra: The headteacher of St John’s high school in Dundee has written to parents to say that secondary 1 and 2 pupils will receive fewer maths lessons per week and that national 5 application of maths classes will see a qualified maths teacher only on a rotational basis.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-03 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  3. Liz Smith will also be au fait with the Audit Scotland report that was published two weeks ago, which talked about the requirement for us to have better granularity in the funding. I can talk at the national level about reaching those in our schools who need that most, and I look forward to engaging with Audit Scotland on that report in the coming days. The Presiding Officer: We have a great deal of interest in asking questions. Concise questions and responses will enable more members to be involved.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-01 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  4. That is still the policy position that I and my party support. I think that there is still broad-based support for the policy in the chamber, although I hear the challenge that she is making. More broadly, as we approach the 2026 election, all parties will have to reflect on the policy approaches that we take in this space, not least in relation to additional support needs. On that point, I was particularly struck by a members’ business debate in the chamber on a motion on that very issue from Mr Alexander Stewart, who is not here just now—oh, I see him over there; I apologise, Presiding Officer. Although I will not stand against the presumption of mainstreaming, because I think that it is important, we need to look at how it is resourced on the ground.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-01 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  5. I also draw Liz Smith’s mind back to the programme for international student assessment 2022 data set, which was published at the end of 2023 and which showed that pupils in Scotland were less likely to witness issues with behaviour in schools than pupils in other parts of the UK. For example, pupils in Scotland were less likely than the UK average to report having “witnessed a fight on school property in which someone got hurt ... heard a student threaten to hurt another student,” or experienced “any type of bullying” on a weekly basis. They were also less likely to report that they were “threatened by other students” or “got hit or pushed around”, or that “other students made fun” of them on a weekly basis. That UK-wide comparison is welcome. Liz Smith asked a question about the presumption of mainstreaming.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-01 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  6. Liz Smith: I go back to the point that, I am sorry to say, very little is changing, which is a badge of shame for Scotland. The cabinet secretary knows full well that there are statistics at the moment that show that pupil absences are increasing in our schools. Does she acknowledge that part of the problem is caused by some pupils being frightened by the poor discipline that they encounter at school? Is that not another reason to review mainstreaming? Jenny Gilruth: The latest data showed a very slight improvement of 0.1 per cent in the number of absences. However, I accept the scale of the challenge.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-01 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  7. The Welsh Government is also following our lead in holding its own behaviour summit to identify what action is required to respond to challenges in Wales. Liz Smith rightly talked about a range of different actions that I have taken to try to support better behaviour in our schools. I very much recognise the scale of the challenge. She will also be aware that, on Friday, we updated our published “Behaviour and Relationships in Schools” action plan in relation to a range of different measures. I also mentioned the framework for gender-based violence. We need to work with local government on improving behaviour in our schools. Later this week, I will convene the first meeting of our education assurance board with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to talk about exactly this issue.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-01 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  8. I know that, for months, she has been trying various initiatives to improve pupil behaviour. However, quite frankly, virtually nothing seems to be working. The incidence of physical abuse against teachers is, rightly, a badge of shame for Scotland. Is it not time for radical interventions, including a review of the principle of mainstreaming? Mainstreaming is all very well in theory but, in practice, it is undermining discipline in far too many classrooms. Jenny Gilruth: It is worth putting on the record that Scotland is not alone in responding to some of these challenges. Across the world, there has been a global shift in relation to behaviour and relationships in our schools. Across the United Kingdom, the Department for Education said only this week that it is “committed to turning the tide on poor behaviour” in schools.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-01 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  9. Violence or abusive behaviour in our schools is completely unacceptable. We want our schools to be safe and consistent learning environments for all. Last year, the Scottish Government published guidance on responding to gender-based violence in schools, including in instances where staff members are affected. That guidance was developed in partnership with our professional teaching organisations, including the NASUWT. The survey represents the views of 476 NASUWT members who responded in Scotland, who were absolutely right to state that schools cannot respond alone to these challenges. The horrifying increase in violence towards women is a broader societal challenge that will only be resolved when men and boys change their behaviour. Liz Smith: I agree with the cabinet secretary on that.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-04-01 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  10. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes portfolio questions on education and skills. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business. Salmon Farming

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  11. Jenny Gilruth: The Scottish Government very much recognises the critical role of software development in driving innovation and in relation to economic growth and the jobs that it will inevitably provide in the future, for the next generation. We are working closely to inspire more young people to pursue careers in technology by investing in digital education, which I spoke about previously, and by strengthening the pathways into the sector. We have initiatives such as Techscaler, the coding boot camps and partnerships with industry, which are helping to build a skilled workforce. More broadly, my colleague Mr Dey is leading on some of our interesting work in relation to the careers collaboratives, which will provide for young people a strengthened offering in relation to future job opportunities in the sector.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  12. That will clarify and strengthen the position and alignment of digital literacy in our curriculum areas in order to better support learners’ needs. Willie Coffey: According to ScotlandIS, something like 13,000 new vacancies in digital technologies are created every year, with the number rising year on year. There is a worldwide shortage of software developers, at a time when the digital revolution is having more and more of an impact on our daily lives. Salaries are pretty good, and the industry and careers can be exciting, variable and long lasting. With that in mind, will the cabinet secretary say more about how we in Scotland can capitalise on that demand, and encourage more of our younger people to take up software development at school and join that dynamic and fantastic industry?

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  13. The Scottish digital academy is central to transforming Scotland’s public services through the development of digital skills and workforce capability. However, that sits within the business portfolio. As part of the education and skills portfolio, options are being explored to expand e-Sgoil as part of the national e-learning offer, in order to deliver on the national digital academy commitment to broaden curricular choice and pathways for young people in our schools, through facilitating delivery of some national qualifications and vocational qualifications online. Although that is not explicitly about developing digital skills, it will support young people in improving their digital literacy. In addition, digital literacy is being considered as a cross-curricular theme in the curriculum improvement cycle.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  14. I am especially mindful of the corrosive impact of disinformation, which I spoke about previously today, and online hate, in relation to our young people’s experience of their education. In January, I visited Cathkin high school to talk about the new digital discourse initiative that has been created by the Time for Inclusive Education group and ISD Global. That resource specifically provides practical strategies and curriculum tools to help schools to counter the effects of online hate and disinformation on young people, and to challenge and address those issues in schools. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Sue Webber has a brief supplementary question.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  15. I fully recognise that competing needs of all individuals in the school campus need to be considered and that there are usually underlying issues that lead to such behaviour, but does the cabinet secretary agree that no pupil, teacher or member of staff should have to suffer abuse in our schools? Can she advise on what can be done to ensure that local authorities and, indeed, heads of education are held accountable, in that regard? Jenny Gilruth: I am absolutely clear that no pupil, teacher or member of staff should have to suffer abuse in our schools. Our schools need to be safe and consistent learning environments for all. In November, we published updated anti- bullying guidance that makes very clear our expectations of schools and local authorities on preventing and responding to bullying.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  16. Elena Whitham: Recently, I have received a worrying increase in casework contacts relating to young people who are experiencing bullying in school, and relating to bullied young people not feeling safe to attend school, which is causing their learning experience to be significantly disrupted. Those young people and their parents or guardians tell me that they do not believe that the young persons’ experiences have been listened to or acted on, while the instigators appear to experience few consequences for their actions and continue to remain in school.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  17. The wellbeing of staff and pupils is an absolute priority for the Scottish Government. As well as our continued investment of £16 million a year to support school counselling services, we have recently re-established the mental health in schools working group to consider relevant advice about children and young people’s mental health. We are also working with the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland to establish a national health and wellbeing group that will bring together good practice and build a comprehensive and consistent wellbeing offer for school staff across all local authorities. The group will meet this spring.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  18. To ensure that the service will continue to meet demand, we have increased the funding that will be available to it through a new contract, which will begin in April. We will also continue to work closely with the service contractor, Govan Law Centre, to monitor demand and ensure that it is met. We are not aware of any referrals being turned away since the service reopened, but if the member would like to share any details or has any further information on that, I would be more than happy to consider the matter. Wellbeing (School Pupils and Staff) 7.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  19. What assurance can the cabinet secretary give that the service, which is valued by many of my constituents as well as by many others across the country, will remain available, especially when more parents and carers increasingly require support for children in ASN settings? Jenny Gilruth: The “Let’s talk ASN” service provides a vital advocacy and legal representation service to families when there is a dispute about additional support for learning. Following demand- led pressures in autumn last year, the service reopened on 3 January, and any cases that could not be addressed during the period in which the service was temporarily suspended have been offered free legal advice.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  20. All children and young people should learn in an environment that best suits their needs. Our education authorities are responsible for setting school admission policies, which will include details of how to make placing requests, the procedures for dealing with parental placing requests and the associated appeals processes. Education authorities also have a duty to comply with placing requests from parents when their child has additional support needs, unless specific exemptions apply. The Government funds the Enquire service to provide advice to parents on the placing request system and how those decisions can be appealed. Fulton MacGregor: I welcome the recent investment from the Scottish Government for the “Let’s talk ASN” service, which had been suspended towards the end of last year.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  21. Additional Support Needs (School Placements) 6.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  22. Jenny Gilruth: I hope that all members were engaged in activities for Scottish apprenticeship week, which was held recently and which offers an opportunity to celebrate the importance of apprenticeships. On the specifics of the member’s question, our colleges plan their course provision in line with the needs of their local areas. In my area, Fife College works closely with our schools to establish such partnerships and works with industry more broadly. The Scottish Government has provided investment through the developing the young workforce initiative. Since 2014, we have seen a sizeable increase in the numbers of young people who achieve vocational and technical qualifications. In 2022-23, 30.4 per cent of school leavers gained such qualifications at level 5 or above, which is certainly welcome news.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  23. Audrey Nicoll: The importance of having maths qualifications for young people who seek to enter the renewables industry and other sectors in Scotland cannot be overstated. I was lucky enough to discuss maths learning with a group of modern apprentices during my recent visit to North East Scotland College to celebrate Scottish apprenticeship week. Will the cabinet secretary outline what more can be done to support regional colleges to engage with school-age children, to showcase how maths and numeracy are used in a multitude of engaging and dynamic ways in vocational careers such as engineering and construction, and to show how more people can benefit from colleges’ strong links with industry in their delivery of training?

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  24. Education Scotland is leading the curriculum improvement cycle, which aims to strengthen the curriculum for pupils aged from three to 18, improve attainment, and support a more consistent teaching and learning experience for our young people. Given that maths is a national priority, the national maths specialist is assisting Education Scotland, local authorities and the teaching profession in reviewing the maths curriculum. In parallel, Education Scotland, with support from the Scottish Government, is providing professional learning packages to teachers to achieve further improvements in the teaching of maths and numeracy across all stages. We are also investing to maximise the number of maths teachers.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  25. The approach that we have set out allows local authorities to respond to the individual needs of their children and young people accordingly. If the member were able to share more information with me on the specific issue that she has raised, I would be happy to engage with her on that. Through the budget, we are putting in the extra funding that I mentioned. We are also providing an extra £15 million per year and, separately, £11 million to directly support pupils with complex additional support needs and provide services to children and families. The member spoke to some of that work, which is being delivered via Enquire. Maths (Secondary Schools) 5.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  26. I would welcome the cabinet secretary’s assessment of the position and ask her to outline the Scottish Government’s guidance on ensuring consistency of approach across local authority areas on determining which plans are relevant in— The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Ms Adamson. The cabinet secretary has got the gist of your question. Jenny Gilruth: I welcome the fact that support has been provided by the Enquire service, which is funded by the Scottish Government. Members have raised several points about the statutory responsibilities of local authorities; I need to be mindful of the position. Local authorities hold the legislative responsibility to deliver our education services. However, we need to work in partnership with them, which is why I mentioned the education assurance board in a number of my earlier responses.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  27. Meanwhile, as part of our work on the ASL action plan, we are developing national professional learning resources and accessible information and guidance on CSPs for children, young people, parents and carers. Clare Adamson: As the cabinet secretary mentioned, demand for additional support needs services is rising. Consistency in the provision of such services across local authority areas is imperative. My recent casework suggests that my local education authority is reluctant to implement co-ordinated support plans and will call any other plan anything but a CSP that has statutory underpinning. We have made referrals to the Enquire advice service, which has helped my constituents who seek additional support needs services and parents who want to establish co- ordinated support plans.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  28. We must be clear that arrangements for a co-ordinated support plan should be put in place to enable crucial individual support and interventions when multiple agencies are involved in supporting a child or young person, but that having such a plan is not a requirement for accessing additional support for learning. When a young person or child requires a co- ordinated support plan, education authorities have a legal duty to put arrangements in place to identify that need. I am committed to including further clarity on the relationship between the CSP and other plans in a staged intervention model that will form part of the refreshed code of practice on additional support for learning.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  29. Our councils are responsible for determining the most appropriate provision to suit the needs of those learners.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  30. What steps does the Government take to engage with local authorities to ensure that parents in that situation have access to resources to support home education? Jenny Gilruth: We engage regularly with local authorities, particularly via the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. The member will be aware of the establishment of the new education assurance board, which will meet in the next two weeks to talk about improving relationships and the delivery of services in education. We have an inclusive education approach in Scotland. That was something that the national discussion, in which COSLA and local government were key partners, highlighted as a strength in our provision. There is a wide range of educational provision in Scotland that meets the needs of children and young people with additional support needs.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  31. All children and young people should receive the support that they need to reach their full potential. Local authorities have a statutory duty to identify and provide such support and to review the support that they provide for pupils with additional support needs in the local community. Complementing that, curriculum for excellence provides a broad framework within which educators are empowered to provide learning and teaching experiences that best suit the needs of individual learners. That includes taking into account choice and personalisation for the learner in curriculum design and delivery. Evelyn Tweed: I have several constituents who have taken their children out of school because the additional support provision isolated them from their peers.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  32. I point out that the question in the business bulletin concerns children with additional support needs in island areas, including the Orkney Islands constituency. If that is the matter that Mr Kerr wishes to ask a supplementary question about, he is most welcome to do that.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  33. I am keen to engage with Audit Scotland on the detail of its report, which talks to the Scottish Government’s funding and the need for more granularity to ensure that it gets to those who need it most. I know that the member will welcome the extra funding that is being provided through phase 3 of the learning estate investment programme to the Orkney Islands Council, which will provide funding to support the Kirkwall ASN centre project. I am keen to reflect on the member’s specific question about how our policy interacts with islands provision with my officials, and I am more than happy to engage with him on that point. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Stephen Kerr has requested a supplementary.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  34. Unmet demand is one of the most significant risks for Orkney Islands Council’s education services, with pressures on staff recruitment and retention as well as a shrinking school estate contributing to the inability of schools to provide the support that children who have additional needs require. In Orkney, all children who require additional support, including those who have more complex needs, are provided for by mainstream schooling, but mainstream schools are excluded from the funding that is available for special schools. What will the cabinet secretary do to address the specific island dimension to the wider, and growing, problems with the delivery of ASL to pupils across Scotland? Jenny Gilruth: I am mindful of Audit Scotland’s report, which I responded to two weeks ago.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  35. Local authorities oversee the delivery of education and have a statutory duty to identify, provide for, and review the support that they provide for pupils with additional support needs in their local school communities, including the Orkney Islands. Spending on additional support for learning by local authorities has reached a record high of more than £1 billion in 2023-24, and the 2025-26 budget allocates a further £29 million of investment for ASN. In addition, the national e-learning offer provides a range of online support and resources to supplement local provision. Liam McArthur: I welcome the cabinet secretary’s response. Notwithstanding that, Audit Scotland has made it clear that ministers have not done enough to plan for the growing demand for ASL provision, and that funding arrangements are not currently fit for purpose.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  36. I was in a school recently—two weeks ago—when that fascinating work was launched, and it links exactly to the question that Mr Cole-Hamilton put during First Minister’s question time. The Government has also provided an uplift in funding in relation to some of these challenges. As the member will have heard in the First Minister’s response, some of the issues relate to Covid, but there have been changes more broadly in relation to behaviour and relationships. I am conscious of time, but I am happy to write to the member with more detail if that would be useful.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  37. He asked what specific action the Government is taking. The First Minister set out in his response the specific action that I have taken in relation to the action plan. However, to give the member some comfort, I note that the action plan will be updated in the coming weeks, and I am more than happy to write to him to provide an update on that work. The First Minister also spoke to some of the challenges that we are seeing in our schools in relation to misogyny. Last year, the Government launched a gender framework in that respect and looked at supporting schools with direct resources around that issue. More interestingly, perhaps, given the member’s question, the Time for Inclusive Education campaign has been rolling out some work in relation to tackling misinformation in our schools.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  38. As is the case across Scotland, there is a worrying increase in violence in Highland schools. Figures that have been passed to me suggest that a member of staff in a Highland school is assaulted approximately every 22 minutes, with 3,408 reported incidents in the 2023-24 school year, and there are rising concerns about violence involving knives, improvised weapons such as scissors and sexual assaults in our schools. Given that the First Minister failed to give a detailed response when he was questioned on the subject, can the cabinet secretary advise me what specific and immediate actions the Scottish Government is taking to tackle the crisis and ensure the safety of staff and pupils? Jenny Gilruth: I thank the member for his interest in the matter, which was raised at First Minister’s question time today.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  39. Although it is the statutory responsibility of local authorities to manage and maintain their school estates, the Scottish Government expects them to provide safe learning environments for all pupils and staff. As a result of continued investment by central Government and local government, the proportion of schools that are in good or satisfactory condition increased from 62.7 per cent in 2007 to 91.7 per cent in 2024. However, I want that progress to stretch further so, tomorrow, Scottish Government officials will participate in an event with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, local authorities, the Scottish Futures Trust and other stakeholders to talk to this important matter. Jamie Halcro Johnston: The issue of violence in our schools was raised with the First Minister at First Minister’s question time earlier today.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-20 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  40. Published in Edinburgh by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, the Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh, EH99 1SP All documents are available on the Scottish Parliament website at: www.parliament.scot Information on non-endorsed print suppliers is available here: www.parliament.scot/documents For information on the Scottish Parliament contact Public Information on: Telephone: 0131 348 5000 Textphone: 0800 092 7100 Email: sp.info@parliament.scot

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  41. I have provided an update on our additional support for learning action plan, and I have spoken about the record provision of funding from the Government, but the Auditor General’s report includes a challenge about how that funding gets to those who need it most. I very much welcome the tone and tenor of today’s debate, and I thank Mr Stewart for allowing us to discuss what is a hugely important area in Scottish education. Meeting closed at 18:02. This is the final edition of the Official Report for this meeting. It is part of the Scottish Parliament Official Report archive and has been sent for legal deposit.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  42. He might be interested to know that, two weeks ago, I convened a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands to talk about issues relating to school nutrition that sit in this space. I am more than happy to write to Mr Whittle on that subject, because he has raised it with me in the chamber on previous occasions. I am very conscious of the time. I have given members an update on the Government’s policy commitment on ASN, but I readily accept the Parliament’s challenge to the Government to engage with the Auditor General and his office, and I will aim to respond to his report fully.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  43. Liz Smith will well understand why I am particularly interested in the issue of spend. We need to have granularity, and we need to better interrogate how policy is being delivered locally. Having listened to members’ contributions, I do not think that there is a debate about ASN pupils being part of an inclusive education system, but we need to consider how that is resourced locally and what that looks like in schools. I am very pleased to hear that Mr Whittle’s daughter is a guidance teacher and a PE specialist—I would have expected no less from her. He was absolutely right to speak about wider societal challenges, which were also raised by Mr Kerr and Liz Smith.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  44. Liz Smith: There was much agreement on the presumption to mainstream, but the difficulty is that, given the increase in the number of young people with considerable complex needs, servicing those needs in our schools is proving to be extremely difficult. Mr Kerr is absolutely right that, because of that difficulty, some youngsters who would benefit from being outwith a traditional classroom environment are suffering, as are the ones who are left in the classroom, where disruption can happen. I know that the cabinet secretary has been told that by teachers, so does she agree that we have to look again at mainstreaming in practice? Jenny Gilruth: We need to look at the totality of our policy and practice in relation to ASN, which is why I am keen to engage with the Auditor General.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  45. The additional support for learning action plan is a document that the Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities jointly own. It is hugely important that we have local government at the table in responding to some of the challenge. If we are going to see behavioural change in our classrooms, we need to facilitate better support. I listened carefully to Mr Kerr’s points about mainstreaming. It was, of course, a policy decision that the previous Labour-Liberal Government took in 2004, but I think that it still commands cross- party support in this place. Like Liz Smith, he spoke to some of the challenges in relation to our classrooms post-pandemic. I accept his points in that regard in relation to ASN. There is a link here.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  46. I very much hope that he hears from the tone that I have adopted this evening that I am sincere in how I treat the matter. I also did that when I gave evidence to his committee in the past few months. He will not find any disagreement from me in relation to the need to better meet the needs of children and young people. He spoke to his constituents’ experiences in that regard, which happened all too often. Mr Ross spoke about his mailbox. As he will well understand, I receive emails routinely from people across the country whose experience of how the provision operates in reality in classrooms is often disconnected from the national policy. I accept that challenge, and the Government has responded to the Morgan review and to the committee’s report.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  47. He will know that, although CSPs are statutory in nature, not having one does not mean that a young person is without access to support. However, there is a challenge in that regard. I provided evidence to the Education, Children and Young People Committee on CSPs previously. We are updating further guidance for parents and carers on CSPs. Martin Whitfield: My point was really about whether access to the tribunal is UNCRC compliant. Jenny Gilruth: In the Scottish Government’s response to the Morgan review, we committed to ensuring that the 2004 act was fully implemented in relation to the UNCRC provision. I am more than happy to write to the member on that point to provide further clarity. I accept Mr Ross’s point about there being challenges.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  48. We had a very positive meeting on the matter. Liz Smith and, I think, Mr Kerr are correct to link wider issues in our schools post-pandemic—be they related to attendance or behaviour, which are issues that are regularly debated in the chamber— to the availability of outdoor education. We know that outdoor education can have transformative impacts. As I mentioned, we will respond to the member’s bill in the coming weeks. Martin Whitfield, who is another former teacher—I am surrounded by them—speaks to the broader measures that are now being used in relation to ASN. The Government’s move in 2012 to broaden out the pupils we capture in the measurement, including young carers and those suffering from bereavement, was, I think, welcome, and I think that all parties have welcomed that in this debate. Martin Whitfield also touched on CSPs.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  49. I am reminded of my constituent, Niamdh Braid, who has been fighting a battle with Fife Council. Colleagues might already be aware of her case, as it was recently reported on the BBC website. Niamdh was not able to access at a local level the British Sign Language support to which she was entitled, and her family’s action resulted in a ruling in their favour. Families should not have to take that course of action. I very much thank Liz Smith—a fellow former modern studies teacher—for her eloquent speech. I note that she did not provide support for her leader’s new policy on reducing the school leaving age to 14. Nonetheless, her passion for outdoor education and its transformative impacts on our children and young people cannot be overestimated. She will know that the Government will be responding to her member’s bill in two weeks’ time.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT

  50. I know that members will very much welcome the fact that, when we look at the attainment gap for pupils with an identified additional support need, progress has been shown. The gap is narrowing—I accept that that is not happening as quickly as we would like it to— and overall attainment is increasing. That is because pupils are being given a diagnosis and the support in school that perhaps, historically, they did not have access to. I mentioned the Audit Scotland report and the need for granular data, which is hugely important. Stuart McMillan talked about his constituents’ experiences and their frustrations in accessing appropriate support. I have been very clear in evidence to Mr Ross’s committee and in the chamber previously that no parent should have to fight for the support to which they are legally entitled.

    MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT, 2025-03-11 · READ THE OFFICIAL REPORT