Chua Sian Chin
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise to speak on this Bill as a person who had been in Government for many years and before that in legal practice for more than eight years and now back in legal practice. While I was in Government, I had cognizance of the shortcomings of the legal profession.”
“It is 62 members out of a total of 1,335 practising lawyers. This has brought about a situation which no responsible government can let it pass in the public interest. The Government has good reasons to deal with this situation firmly. In fact, the present amendments have only made a small inroad in self-regulation.”
“At the same time, a minority group of activists has also chosen to take on the Government by calling an Extraordinary General Meeting of the Law Society to pass fierce resolutions against the Government. This group comprised only 62 members.”
“Though he has only limited Constitutional powers and acts on the advice of the Cabinet, he is the symbol of the unity, loyalty and aspirations of the people of Singapore.”
“- to hold classes for children of his constituents. What right has he got? The PAP MPs equally have no such rights. It is the right of the Government, if they think so, to have such classes. In fact, through the People's Association, they have been holding kindergarten classes in the community centres.”
“It is the Government who says that, and the Government has the right to say it because they are responsible for the Government of Singapore. And it is not what I say or what you say. Let me turn to the Member for Potong Pasir. He also produced some exhibits which are equally bogus.”
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“I have given him one reply and the other is - An hon. Member: On the way.”
“Sir, as I have said, if a person is addicted to some other drug, besides heroin, it would not show in a urine test. But that does not mean he is not an addict. That is the point.”
“Sir, I do not think I am competent to debate with the Member for Alexandra on this point. I presume that he will admit that he is also not competent to debate on this matter. But the important point is that it is the professional expertise of the doctor in charge that counts. Whether the withdrawal symptom is the result of taking aspirin or whether it is the result of an addiction to heroin is a matter which I do not think I, as the Minister, would interfere. It is a matter of professional competence of the doctor in charge. If the Member says that the person who has examined that relative of his constituent is not competent, then, of course, I will investigate. But if he is a doctor, he knows what he is doing. And he makes a report saying that, "so-and-so, through medical observation, is a drug addict as a result of a sympton which I have observed", then we accept that. It is not only I myself, but the court will also accept it. We have a case where the court has accepted that. We have a court of appeal case on that.”
“As such, in fact, we have been doing our very best to do everything, to rehabilitate him and to bring him back to society. I agree with the Member, therefore, that we should build up rapport with the members of the family because if the members of the family take an interest in the addict or ex-addict during the rehabilitation, then the person has a better chance of rehabilitation. If the Member were to give me details of the case where the person has been transferred from one centre to another, I will look into it. 5.30 p.m.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, may I explain to the Member that it is not urine test alone that is used to determine whether a person is a drug addict or not. In fact, the urine test itself is not as conclusive as medical observation. If there is evidence of heroin in the urine after testing, then it is conclusive that that person is a drug addict. But there are many other drugs of addiction, apart from heroin, which do not disclose its presence in a urine test. That is why the law has to use either a urine test or a medical observation. For example, there are addictive drugs that ard used which do not reveal itself in a urine test. It is only heroin and morphine that are revealed. And that is why we use medical observation and, in fact, medical observation in that respect is more accurate. How does the doctor arrive at the conclusion through a medical observation? Usually they do so by observing the withdrawal symptoms which indicate that the person has been addicted to taking drugs. That, in fact, explains the two cases which the Member for Alexandra mentioned. "How is it that he was not given a urine test and yet he has been detained in a rehabilitation centre?" It is from medical observation. In the other case, the person was given a urine test which was negative but he was still detained. May I assure the Member that we do not just detain any member of the public if he is not a drug addict, because our rehabilitation centres are very costly to run, not only in terms of funds but also of manpower. It is only when we are certain through medical observation by a doctor that we detain a person. And mind you, Sir, we do not detain a drug addict and treat him as a criminal. It is unlike the criminal law detention. This is detention for the treatment of the drug addict.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not think we should get involved with the controversy about whether dialects should be used in certain programmes. That is outside my Ministry. The point is this. When we try to put across a message, it must be very clear and concise. Even if dialect is used, it should not be long-winded because then the message will never get through. May I assure Members that if this is done, we usually do it in the form of cartoons where with less words used, the better effect it will have. So I do not think the Member for Mountbatten need worry that we will create a controversy. We will not. If a controversy were created in putting across a simple message to the aged, or whatever it is, then I think we would have failed in our propaganda effort. We have a number of experts to advise us on how to put across a message. In fact, we have been able to put across quite well some of the messages. The only problem is that while we may be able to put across the message will those who have received the message practise it. That is our problem.”
“Sir, I must disagree with the Member for Khe Bong when he said that not giving way to traffic is a minor offence. In fact, many accidents have occurred because motorists do not give way. There is a difference of opinion. But I agree entirely with the Member for Khe Bong when he said that not giving away to traffic is a minor offence. In fact, many accidents have occurred because motorists do not give way. There is a difference of opinion. But I agree entirely with the Member for Khe Bong if the offences are technical and minor, but not in the sense of not giving way to traffic as he has enunciated. 5.15 p.m.”
“one thing but being killed or maimed is another. Moreover, killing and maiming other people is still another factor which should be remembered. However, may I say that if the violation of traffic rules by drivers who earn a living by driving is technical and minor in nature, then we can give them special consideration. In fact, they have been given special consideration for minor and technical offences by both the Traffic Police and the ROV. But I do not think we will be doing them a service by giving them a concession for serious offences.”
“Coming to the Member for Khe Bong, he has said that since drivers earn their living by driving and, by the nature of their occupation, that is, long hours on the road, they are exposed to a greater risk of being booked by the Traffic Police. They are, therefore, being inconvenienced or they have to suffer suspension under the Points Demerit System. He has appealed, saying that they should be more favourably treated than the other motorists who do not drive for a living. May I point out to him that from our statistics, not only are they more exposed to booking for traffic offences but, what is more important, they are more exposed to the risk of meeting with accidents. In fact, the figures show that drivers of pick-ups and taxi-drivers contribute more than their fair share of road accidents. For example, the accident mte for taxis was about 884 accidents per 1,000 taxis in 1980. It was a very high rate of accident. The figure for lorries and pick-ups was 257 accidents for 1,000 lorries and pick-ups. If we compare them to the other mc;torists, Members will see a marked difference. With regard to the other motorists, there were only 192 accidents per 1,000 motor cars. That being the case, I do not think they should be given special consideration when they commit traffic offences. They shoufd be treated in the same manner as other drivers for the reason that by giving them a concession we may in the long run do a disservice to them. My view is that it is better for the errant drivers to learn to be more careful and responsible on the road, even at the price of being suspended under the Points Demerit System, than to be maimed or killed on the road which is a much greater tragedy to their family. I think that is a very important point to remember. Being suspended is.”
“Altogether 1,500 riders attended these courses. Whether there should be compulsory training before they are allowed to handle motor-cycles is a matter which is still under consideration. We have found out that that has not been done in many countries, but nevertheless, we are seriously considering the matter. With regard to enforcement, the Member pointed out that the enforcement of traffic rules is being done partly by the Traffic Police and partly by the Registry of Vehicles. As far as the Traffic Police is concerned, there is a clear area of responsibility, that is to say, they enforce the traffic laws with regard to people who use the road, that is, pedestrians, motorcyclists, motorists and so on. The ROV on the other hand enforces regulations on the safety of vehicles. There is a broad difference. But the Management Services Department has gone into this matter and they have made recommendations that responsibilities of the ROV with regard to the implementation of the Points Demerit System and the testing of drivers and riders should also be taken over by the Traffic Police. This is also under consideration and a decision will be made in due course. Turning to the Member for Telok Blangah, he wanted to know whether we have speed limits on our expressways. For his information, the speed limit is determined by the Highway Committee comprising members from the Traffic Police, ROV and the PWD. The Committee considers a number of factors before imposing the speed limit on any particular stretch of road. They include the accident rate, the presence of bends, side-roads, traffic lights and the volume of traffic. Speed limits are regularly reviewed by the Highway Committee. At the moment the Highway Committee is drafting regulations on speed limits on our expressways.”
“The Traffic Police has organized exhibitions in void decks of H DB estates. These exhibitions are addressed particularly to the aged and their families. In the old days most families did not allow their aged to go out and cross the road alone. They always made sure that there was at least a young man or woman to accompany and to help the aged to cross the road. That is the message we are putting across to the residents in HDB estates. Part of our campaign is not only to teach them to respect the aged but also to protect them. We also held a campaign in one of the constituencies to get the Residents' Committees to set the example for anyone on the road, namely, that if anyone should see an aged person wishing to cross the road, he or she should come forward and help that aged person to cross the road. The other category of those who were killed were school children. Although there were only nine exhibitions in schools to cater for the school children, I would like to inform the Member that road safety education became part of the school curriculum last year. So it is now much more comprehensive than just holding exhibitions in schools. Another important project to cater for the school children is the building of a Road Safety Park at East Coast Park. In this Park, the children are able to learn road safety rules in a more vivid and more interesting way by participating in the traffic games held there. Each day about 400 children practise their skills at the Road Safety Park. Coming to motor-cyclists, I agree with the Member that they are the most vulnerable road users and, therefore, they should be trained before they are allowed to handle motor-cycles. Last year we conducted a total of six safe-riding courses for beginners and qualified motor-cyclists.”
“I accept the point that people have lost their lives. But I want to put it in proper perspective, that the accident numbers are not that bad. That is my point. In 1980, there were 1,497 persons who were seriously injured in road accidents, whereas in 1979 there were 1,660 persons. In other words, for persons who were seriously injured there has been a drop of 9.8%. Thus, if we combine the number of road fatalities and serious injury cases for 1980 as compared to 1979 there was, in fact, a 7.4% decrease. In other words, in 1980, there were 1,754 persons who died or were seriously injured compared to 1,894 persons killed or seriously injured in 1979. For 1981, i.e. this year, the number of persons killed in January and February was 39 persons as compared to 53 killed in 1980 over the same period. There has been an improvement. The reason why I am saying this is to prove the point that the Traffic Police has been quite effective in their educational programme although they had no national campaign in 1980, as they had in 1979. However, they had a total of 64 road safety exhibitions in 1980 - 11 at community centres and shopping centres, 12 at major worksites, nine at schools, five at trade fairs, 16 at HDB estates in conjunction with Residents' Committees. The Member for Alexandra also mentioned that there has been a high percentage of pedestrians killed on the road and what measures have we taken to try to lower the accident rate among the pedestrians. Among those pedestrians killed, quite a large proportion of them are the aged, over 60 years old, and the Member said that he is at a loss as to how we can get through to them. He has suggested filmlets over TV to put across the message. We will do that but, at the same time we have done something more effective. 5.00 p.m.”
“First, may I reply to the Member for Alexandra. The Member for Alexandra quoted certain figures regarding traffic accidents and he has made certain observations. He said that, unfortunately, as compared to 1979, there has been an increase in the number of deaths on the road in 1980. That is correct. But I would like to put the matter in proper perspective. In fact, the situation is not that bad in 1980 as compared to 1979, although the number of deaths has increased.”
“May I inform the Member for Punggol that as far as small arms are concerned, there are very strict regulations which the police officers have to observe with regard to the safety of the small arms. If an officer were negligent in observing these regulations, or if he breaks any of the regulations, he can be charged and punished. As far as the uniformed police officers are concerned, they do not bring their small arms home. In other words, when they go on duty they will get their small arms from the armoury of the police station and after they have finished their duty, before returning home, they have to return their small arms. But in cases where there is a need for them to be armed all the time, as in the case of detectives, or plain-clothes policemen, then they are permitted to bring their small arms home. This is where the problem arises. In fact, those who are careless by leaving their small arms on the table or the desk instead of locking them up, will be in serious trouble because they will be punished for negligence. So far, we have very few incidents of detectives who have been negligent, as in the case mentioned by the Member for Punggol, which resulted in the mistress using the firearm to kill another person. But so far there are a few cases. After a certain lapse of time we hear of one such negligent act, and there is a scandal. That will always happen. But as far as we are concerned, there are strict regulations governing the possession of small arms and every police officer who is well trained understands it. They have to observe the regulations well, not only because they fear punishment but it is also for their own personal protection, because small arms are lethal weapons and the officers have been trained to understand that.”
“Because of the close rapport, the police have been able to organize, through the Citizens' Consultative Committees and the Residents' Committees, a number of crime prevention exhibitions in the void decks of the HDB estates. This is done not even through the police headquarters but through the headquarters divisional stations and the RCs or CCCs concerned. This is a matter which should be decentralized, and we have decentralized it. In oiher words, the divisional headquarters personnel together with the officer-in-charge is slowly building up a very close relat!onship with the community leaders and residents in the housing estates. To some extent this has made it possible to keep the crime rate low in H DB estates. That is an area which, I think, we should push forward very actively to solve our problem of crime in H DB estates. If we can do so, we would have solved the problem of crime among, I think, 70% of the population in Singapore, and particularly in the residential areas of Singapore.”
“In addition to these part-time and full-time policemen patrolling the area, we have regular police officers patrolling in team police cars. Generally speaking, the crime rate in housing estates is low compared to the crime rate outside housing estates, in spite of the fact that the number of blocks of flats have been going up. When I say "housing estate" I mean the HDB as well as the JTC housing estates. For robbery in H DB and JTC estates, there were 292 robberies in 1978 whereas in non-HDB and JTC areas there were 578. So in HDB and JTC estates the percentage is 33.6%. Robbery in actual numbers in HDB and JTC estates in 1980 grew to 436, whereas in non-HDB and JTC areas it grew to 828. So the percentage in HDB and JTC estates is 34.5%. The crime rate in HDB and JTC areas has therefore remained low compared to non-HDB and JTC estates. Besides police patrols, we are encouraging residents to take crime prevention measures. As we have announced, we will be forming crime prevention councils with sub-committees, to push our crime prevention effort. But this has already been done to some extent in the housing estates. In fact, there is close liaison between the officer-in-charge of each division and the Residents' Committees and the CCCs. Either the officer-in-charge or his representative attends meetings of the CCCs and RCs. In fact, there is very close liaison. So it is not necessary for someone to just write to me or to the Ministry or to the Commissioner of Police. The matter is taken up between them. Since the last three years there has been a close rapport between the police and the residents.”
“May I say that the patrolling policy is being reviewed daily or even weekly in response to the rising or lowering of crime rates within a police division by the OC Division and OC Crimes. If the crime rate is going up in the area of Kaki Bukit, then patrols from other areas where the crime rate has gone down will be diverted to Kaki Bukit. The strategy is being reviewed time and again. The Member suggested the setting up of mobile police posts. It is not that we have not thought about it. I think it is not feasible. What is a mobile police post? It is just like a mobile blood transfusion van or something like it. That is not feasible. If there is a need for a police post there, then it must be a static post. As I have said in reply to the Member for Ang Mo Kio, there are limitations to the functions of a police post. I think our team policing strategy is mobile enough for police cars to be diverted to one area if the need arises because they are in constant communication through the walkie talkie with the police divisional headquarters. With that, I think it should be sufficient to meet the problems at hand. 4.30 p.m. With regard to the question whether police national servicemen have been patrolling the housing estates in his constituency of Kaki Bukit, I can tell the Member that we have used full-time national servicemen to do some of the vertical and horizontal policing between the hours of 10.00 a.m. and 6.00 p.m., i.e. during the day time. The Member mentioned about burglars breaking in when the residents are away at work. So we have made use of the full-time national servicemen to patrol during the day. We deploy the part-time national servicemen between the hours of 7.00 p.m. and 11.00 p.m. They are part-time because they work during the day.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, on the first point made by the Member for Punggol with regard to Police manpower visa-vis the policing duties, he did imply that there are now more and more areas to be patrolled because more and more housing estates have been built. If we have to saturate all the housing estates with police patrols indiscriminately, we can double, treble or even quadruple the Police Force, even that will not be sufficient. So the strategy must be to raise the quality of the members of the Police Force and also to enhance the patrol strategy. At the same time, we should mechanize as much as possible. In fact, mechanization has been carried out because years ago there were a lot of foot patrols. Now they patrol in team policing cars. So we have mechanized in that direction. Then the other case of improving the effectiveness of the Police Force with smaller numbers is through computerization, and that is also being done in the Police Force. If we use computers to do a lot of the routine work that is being done by the constables, this will free them for patrolling duties. Therefore we have to make-do with the numbers that we have by doing these things to raise the effectiveness and efficiency of the Police Force. With regard to patrols, as I have mentioned earlier in answer to the Member for Mountbatten, the strategy on patrol patterns must not be too rigid but to alter the combinations in response to the crime pattern in each particular area, particularly in the Housing Board estates. As far as Kaki Bukit is concerned, the Member for Kaki Bukit mentioned that the crime rate there has gone up.”
“Sir, I think the Member for Punggol has not understood me clearly. If, as he says, it is a serious matter, then he can write to me. But since he has close rapport with the officer-in-charge of the Marine Police and he can straightaway direct his complaint to him, which can be taken care of, then, of course, that is something which we want to encourage, that is, close relationship between Members of Parliament, community leaders and the Police Force. Perhaps I can ask him a question whether, after his complaint to the officer-in-charge of Marine Police about their lapses, matters have improved.”
“Sir, I am glad that I have asked the Member for Punggol to reveal, what he calls, the bad things which they have been doing. My only regret is that he has not told me earlier. If they were negligent and they were not doing their duty, I take a very serious view of the matter. I need the cooperation of not only the Members of Parliament to tell me these things but also any member of the public. Not only are complaints such as these from Members of Parliament taken seriously but complaints from members of the public are also taken very seriously. If we do not take these complaints seriously and do not act upon them, then standards will go down. I believe in it very vehemently. I would appeal to the Member for Punggol that if, in the course of his fishing, he sees such behaviour he should straightaway inform me about it. He would help me in my job tremendously if he does that. The other point is about harassment. "Harassment" in the English language could mean checking in the good sense or checking in the bad sense. I have got to be fair. I regret that this matter has not been brought to my notice because I would have investigated it. If it is harassment in the bad senge, that is, the Marine Police were just checking and making things difficult for the fishermen unnecessarily, then that is not conducive to good relationship between the police and the public. But if it is checking in the course of their duty, I think all citizens will have to agree that these inconveniences are now and then necessary. If we were to tell the Marine Police that they cannot check at all, then they may have more time for rest. But here again, if there is a specific case of harassment, it should be reported and we will investigate it. That is a good way to maintain standards of efficiency.”
“There were times when I went fishing, they did not follow me. So we are on the same sea but not necessarily in the same boat. I think the Member for Punggol should take my answer in the right spirit. If he has anything to say about the Marine Police, I am prepared to answer if he asks me about it. We should not hide anything. We are an open Government.”
“Sir, I would like to clarify my statement. I did not make any allegations. What I said was that I have got to be fair to whoever was in command of that boat on the night in question. I think the Member for Punggol has not got my point that if the matter had been brought to my attention I would have investigated the matter. But I cannot jump to conclusion. Neither did I jump to conclusion that it was really the Member for Punggol's boat which looked suspicious. I did not say that. I said "maybe" because they did not know that the Member for Punggol was inside the boat, and also they could not presume. 4.00 p.m. When they are on surveillance, they just watch, and if something untoward happens then they move in. So whether the boat is licensed or not licensed, it is something that happens in the dark of night. If they feel that a boat needs to be kept under surveillance, that is their discretion. That is all I am saying, I am not saying that the boat in which the Member was in is illegal or suspicious. We have got to be fair. I am not making any allegation. I have got to be fair to both sides. I have got to be fair to the police. If it is true that they jump to conclusions which are reckless then, of course, they are to be blamed. If there is unfair imputation, of course, then I withdraw. But I am saying that there is no bad imputation. I am saying that we cannot rule out the possibility that they may have such a conception. I could be fishing. I am also a fisherman. And I cannot say that my boat in which I was in -”
“I said "maybe the boat looked suspicious." It does not mean that the boat in which the Member for Punggol was in is conclusively suspicious.”
“Sir, I do not have to withdraw the remark because the Member for Punggol -”
“But these 15 do not include those arrests made by the Immigration Department which also has its own boats. In fact, the Immigration Department is the authority because they do not only have boats but they also have a task force and they work through intelligence information which is more effective than mere patrolling and spot-checkings to detect illegal immigrants. During the period 1979 to 1980, the Marine Police arrested a total of 33 persons for smuggling and they were handed over to the Customs Department. They were mainly detected by speed-boats cruising in the Straits of Johore. In order to provide effective coverage, patrols have been intensified in the Johore Straits by speed-boats in eastern approaches to Singapore, and look-out posts have been established at vantage points to tighten the security of Singapore waters. Officers on duty at these posts scan the waters to detect suspicious vessels. Perhaps it is these tactics that have resulted in the situation which the Member for Punggol told us just now, i.e. that while he was fishing he saw a boat being anchored at the beacon where nobody was supposed to be there and they were there for more than the five minutes. If it had been brought to my attention, I would have investigated to see whether they were just whiling away their time or they were on duty.”
“Sir, the Marine Police fleet consists of 70 patrol boats. They have, what you call, the PA class, 30 metres long, 21 boats; PB class, 21 metres-long, 29 boats; and speed-boats, 7 metres-long, 20 boats. At any one time, there are 24 patrol boats patrolling the Singapore territorial waters. Each boat has a crew of three to five police officers who are armed to deal with emergencies. The PA class and PB class boats patrol the eastern, southern and western parts of Singapore, while the speed-boats patrol along the Straits of Johore which is very narrow and for which we require speed-boats. The speed-boats have a top speed of 35 knots and can effectively intercept a boat from mainland Johore attempting to bring in illegal immigrants or smuggle goods. Recently, the Marine Police have acquired some new boats with a top speed of 32 knots. These 18 boats are for replacement of the old PB class boats which only have a speed of less than 20 knots. So they are now much more effective. In answer to the Member for Serangoon Gardens about the effectiveness against smuggling and illegal immigrants, I think he is not very clear of the role of the Marine Police. The primary role of the Marine Police is to enforce security, law and order in Singapore's territorial waters. That is the primary role. With regard to smuggling and immigration, they do supplementary enforcement. In fact, the authority that is responsible for smuggling is the Customs and for illegal immigrants it is the Immigration Department. The Marine Police supplement both these bodies with regard to illegal immigration and smuggling and, in their supplementary role, the Marine Police have in the last two years arrested a total of 15 illegal immigrants, mainly Malaysians.”
“That was just a general statement. So I cannot answer the Member for Mountbatten except in a general way. In answering in a general way I could perhaps give a thousand and one reasons. Perhaps they are there to protect the Member for Mountbattenf But this is just a guess. His guess is just as good as mine. But as far as patterns of policing are concerned, "vertical" means having to climb up the stairs; "horizontal" means to walk along the corridors, and "slant-wise" is when the staircase is slant-wise. When I say that there is no fixed pattern, it does not mean that they have not worked out several combinations of "horizontal", "vertical" and "ground" policing. They must not be regular or rigid about implementing this combination of pattern in order to allow the evil-doer to expect them. But they must combine the pattern in such a way as to maximize the element of surprise. If there is an element of surprise, that is the best deterrent against evil-doers.”
“Sir, that is what lawyers would call non sequftur, meaning it does not follow. It does not mean that, if we examine the Japanese system, we will adopt the Japanese system. The point is this. As I said, it is better for us to be objective about this and keep an open mind. We have been following the British system, i.e. we have more divisional headquarters. I am just quoting a contrasting example. We are studying the Japanese system in relation to the British system, and maybe the American system. The Japanese system and the American system are about the same. They have a lesser number of police headquarters but more police cars. The British system is more confined - they have a police division for a population of 200,000 to 300,000. Personally I think the Home Affairs Ministry's view is that if we want to build a new town with, say, a population of 200,000 or 300,000, then we need a system of divisional headquarters station within. As it is r,ow, the 0C of the Division has been interacting with the Residents' Committees and the Citizens' Consultative Committees. So if we want to have a closer community relationship between the police station and the Member of Parliament, the Residents' Committee, and the Citizens' Consultative Committee, we must have more headquarters stations.”
“I cannot say when, because the Ministry of Home Affairs is only one side. The two Ministries must resolve the matter. With regard to the crime rate in Yio Chu Kang in the constituency of the Member for Jalan Kayu, may I say that the presence of a police post will not take care of the crime rate very much. If the crime rate has gone up, then what is needed is more police patrols, not only team policing cars but detectives and so on. As I have said, a police post is just some police presence. But in order to curb the crime rate, we must have patrols. And, as Members know, in Singapore we cannot flood the whole place with police patrols. We must have priorities. In areas where crime rates are low, we have to transfer some of the patrols to other areas where the crime rate is going up. 3.30 p.m. This is the first time I hear that the crime rate in Yio Chu Kang has gone up. If the Member had written to me, I would have directed the police accordingly, but they are supposed to monitor every time, not just for one month but every day of the week. The 0C of every Division has to review the crime situation, not just every week, but every day and deploy his forces within his Division. Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I think the Hon. Minister has revealed some every interesting information, i.e. they are looking into the Japanese policing system. It looks like we might be going overboard with "Japanese". Very soon we are going to have Japanese policemen in our streets!”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, as far as the Ministry of Home Affairs is concerned we have made up our minds. We are not dragging our feet. If we have got the money we would have built the police station. It is as simple as all that. The point is that we have not got the money and we cannot build anything without money. I am glad the Member for Jalan Kayu also agrees with the Member for Bukit Ho Swee that our opinion should prevail. That is only a matter of opinion but, as far as the practical realities are concerned, it remains a matter of opinion. To be fair, may I say that there is a genuine difference of approach. The Japanese system has fewer headquarters stations, whereas ours is a British approach where more headquarters stations are needed. That is, in fact, the basic difference. I am sure the matter will be resolved pretty soon. An hon. Member: How soon?”
“I think that is the most forceful advocacy and I thank the Member for Bukit Ho Swee. I hope his loud voice would resound through to the chambers of the Treasury.”
“Sir, it is like knocking your head against a stone wall. But I think things are moving now and I can assure Members that before long a decision will be made. The proposal now is for a team of experts to help solve the problem because there is a genuine difference of opinion. On our side, we are always at the losing end because we have not got the money.”
“Sir, not just one meeting, but several meetings have taken place.”
“Sir, is that a question or a suggestion? Mr Ho See Beng: Sir, I am asking a question. I want to know when this meeting between the Ministry of Finance officials and the Home Affairs officials took place. If the Minister can give us some evidence of the meeting, then we will release him.”
“It is not just ground reaction. The question is: which is the better way of operation, to have a headquarters station for every new town or to have fewer headquarters stations serving the whole of Singapore? There is a genuine difference of opinion here and we have to resolve it. It is not that the Ministry of Home Affairs has not been doing anything about it. We will get the experts to make their recommendations and we will resolve this issue.”
“No, Sir. May I explain? Perhaps I have not been explicit. There is now a difference of views. The view of the MPs and the view of the Ministry of Home Affairs is that in every new town there should be a police headquarters station. Since Members want it, let me make it public. The view of the Treasury is that it is not necessary and that only a few headquarters stations, say, four or five are enough to serve the whole of Singapore. But we do not agree with that view. So there is an impasse. The next move to cut the impasse is to get experts to put up a report.”
“We are not just sitting around and not doing anything about it. If we are not in a position to convince the Finance Ministry in spite of the strong advocacy of the Member for Punggol, we are proposing to get a team of experts to draw up plans so as to convince the Treasury that police headquarters stations are necessary. This is what we are going to do.”
“Actually the Member knows but he pretends not to know. Even with such strong advocacy and support, there is a lack of response as far as money is concerned. It does not mean that we do not have plans. There are plans because a piece of land has already been earmarked for a police station in Ang Mo Kio. I think the Member knows about it. On our part, we are doing -”
“Yes, that is why I am grateful. Actually the Member knows it.”
“Sir, it really gladdens my heart to hear so strong an advocacy for a police station.”
“So if a person can house-break and rob on a lower floor, why go on to a higher floor? On that basis roughly, vertical policing would normally, but not always, be effected only up to the sixth floor.”
“Sir, the position is this. We have to get the money for it. If we had the money we would have built it. We are not in a position to build a headquamers police station rightaway, and that is why we offered a police post as an interim measure. I agree entirely that it is not satisfactory. So we are on the same side. I am glad that the Member has been strong in his advocacy for a headquarters station here. Unfortunately, the Minister for Finance is not here. But we are working towards having a headquarters station there. With regard to the point made by the Member for Mountbatten on the effectiveness of venical policing, the effectiveness of any type of policing, whether it be ground policing, vertical policing or horizontal policing, we cannot have a set pattern. If we have a set pattern the house-breakers will study the set pattern and that defeats the whole purpose of policing. There must always be a variation in the pattern. But at the same time, I think the Member for Mountbatten will agree with me that even if we deploy the whole police force of 7,000 to 8,000 persons, we will not be able to cover all the housing blocks every day or even once a week. We have to work on priorities. We have to differentiate between areas which are more crime prone and areas which are less crime prone. According to the experience of the police, normally less crime is committed beyond the sixth storey. It is just a general rule that the patrol is carried out only up to the sixth storey. But it does not mean that the police will not go to the 11th storey, if that is necessary. This is no secret that I am revealing to house-breakers. Even robbers and house-breakers want to conserve their energy. They want the maximum results with minimum effort.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I agree with the Member for Ang Mo Kio that Ang Mo Kio New Town needs not just a police post but a headquarters station. In fact, there is a piece of land earmarked for it and we are working towards getting one. Some hon. Members: When?”
“Sometimes robbery in a commercial premises is committed as a result of inside information having been received. That illustrates the resourcefulness of the robbers. Of course, the police must be more resourceful than the robbers.”
“What happens is that the press usually interview the victims of the robbery or house-breaking, and they get the names and details not from the police but from the victims themselves. That is why in some cases the names are published. Having got the names and addresses, the reporters usually approach the Police Public Relations Officer for confirmation of the facts. Normally the Police Public Relations Officer confirms the facts if they are correct, otherwise it could lead to speculation and inaccurate reporting. However, the Police Public Relations Officer usually seeks the cooperation of the reporters concerned and asks them not to publish facts that can embarrass or annoy the victims or jeopardize police investigation. On the other hand, of course, there are some victims who like to have publicity. They may insist on having their names published. That is something beyond the power of the police to prevent if they want to do so. But we do not encourage such a practice. What we do encourage is that if there is a lesson to be learned as to how to prevent such a crime, we would like the press to publicize them. In fact, we always ask the press to publicize them. The other point made by the Member for Ang Mo Kio is that there is a possibility that if such details are published, the robbers may commit the offence a second time. From the experience of the police, that is not often the case. If that is so, I think the robbers are not very bright. Invariably, once they commit such a crime, they know that the place is always being watched. In fact, mbbers are more resourceful than that. The police know that before the robbers carry out a job, they always keep surveillance. Not only do the police keep surveillance, but the robbers also keep surveillance.”
“But the point is this. In instances where it is not possible to deal with the matter in the police post because of the absence of a whole range of investigating officers, then only in such instances will the complainant be asked to go to the Paya Lebar Police Station. An instance of this nature is an identification parade for the complainant to identify the accused person. This procedure cannot be conducted at the police post. It must be held at the headquarters station. Another instance is the identification of stolen property. So only in these instances will the complainant be asked to go to the Paya Lebar Police Station. It is not possible to duplicate the facilities present at the headquarters police station because investigative facilities would mean the involvement of three or four inspectors and sergeants who would otherwise be performing an active 24-hour tour of duty every three or four days. It would also need the support of a handful of detectives who have to carry out inquiries into reported offences and so on. What the Member for Ang Mo Kio has at the moment is only a police post and not a police headquarters station. He may get it sometime in the future. The other point he made concerns the disclosure of sensitive details to the press by the Police Public Relations Officer. As a matter of practice, the Police Public Relations Officer does not disclose specific details of cases which will cause annoyance or embarrassment to the victims or complainants or expose them and their families to any danger. However, there may be cases of public interest whereby the press usually gets information about them, and the reporters will appear at the scene pretty fast.”
“Sir, what the Member for Ang Mo Kio wants is an inspector to be stationed in Ang Mo Kio police post. I am afraid I have to disappoint him because stationing an inspector at Ang Mo Kio police post will not solve the problem which he has posed. Let me explain the structure of the Police Divisional headquarters administrative facilities vis-a-vis the police post. In each police division, we have a headquarters police station and in each division we may have one or more police posts. In the case of Ang Mo Kio, the headquarters station is at Paya Lebar. 3.00 p.m. At the police post we have a very small establishment. It is mainly to provide report-making facilities for the residents around the police post, in this case, Ang Mo Kio. But this is important. The police post does not have any investigative staff stationed there. All the investigative staff are and must be stationed at the headquarters station at Paya Lebar. In the case of a minor complaint to the Police Force, the officer-in-charge of the police post will contact the investigating officer stationed at the headquarters station at Paya Lebar and intimate to him that a report has been made. If it is a minor complaint, the investigating officer will go to the police post and not ask the complainant to go to the Paya Lebar Police Station. An appointment will be made for the complainant to meet the investigating officer at the Ang Mo Kio police post. If it is a serious complaint, then the investigating officer will go immediately either to the police post or to the home of the complainant. It is not strictly correct to say that in every report made to the police the complainant has to travel all the way to the Paya Lebar Police Station. It is the investigating officer who goes to the police post.”
“But if the crime is of such a nature that there is a possibility of his running away, not just resisting arrest, then I think he should be handcuffed. But, of course, the discretion will have to be given to the police officer concerned, and that is the key answer to the guestion, and a good officer will use his discretion wisely. Mr M.K.A. Jabbar( In Tamil): Sir, my intention in bringing up this incident was that the supervisors who are very good and honest people should not have been handcuffed in the presence of the other workers. I am not objecting to punishment being meted out to offenders. The Minister's explanation is very satisfactory to me. I thank the Minister on behalf of the workers. As I am a worker I do not want anyone to think lowly of the workers. When they are taken to the police station, the officers should use their discretion. Since the Minister has explained, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.”
“Sir, we always review the policy on handcuffing. But the point is this, and I think this is very important and we have to bear this in mind. A person may look harmless -”
“Sir, I have already explained that when a person is arrested and subsequently released, it does not mean that a wrongful arrest has been made. As Members know, our court of justice will not convict a person unless there is sufficient evidence to prove that the case is beyond reasonable doubt. Usually before the prosecution brings the case up to the court, we refer the matter to the Attorney-General's Chambers who will consider the evidence and decide whether it is worthwhile to prosecute even though they may think that the person is guilty but they simply could not get sufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person was guilty. So it does not mean that a person who has been arrested and released after investigation, that arrest has been a wrongful arrest.”