Eugene Yap Giau Cheng
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to know from the Minister whether he would like to put up a fence to prevent trespassing. Mr Lim Hng Kiang: We also do not want to put up a fence because when the land is being built, we have got to tear down the fence. That would be a waste of public resources. We control our expenditure very tightly.”
“Sir, I am making this amendment to stress to the Minister that the ethnic integration policy introduced in 1989 has in some way affected the quality of life of my constituents. I believe this probably has also an effect in old estates such as Queenstown and Bukit Ho Swee.”
“Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Code SA 1500 of the Main Estimates. Sir, not so long ago, in the New Paper, there was a report on a man who was supposed to be the executor of the estate of the deceased brother and he was trying very hard to withdraw the CPF money of his deceased…”
“It means "We are poor people. We do not have CPF. How can we buy our own homes?" Sir, I think we ought to do something for them. When they first moved into these homes, they had no trouble because they were young, the children were young, no space constraints, but today the children have grown up, they become adults - four, five or six of…”
“Sir, I would like the Minister to reconsider the policy of not allowing Singaporeans to rent 3-room flats. This policy is already 10 years old, introduced in 1982, and I recall that when it was introduced it was meant to encourage Singaporeans to own their own homes.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, can I ask the Minister to clarify a point which he made in his long speech? If indeed the purpose is to subject motorists to some inconvenience by not expanding or building more roads in the city area, then why was there an announcement in the press recently to expand the PIE?”
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“I do not have the exact figures but I can mention that these flatted factories are normally about 75-80% occupied.”
“Sir, the Member brought up the point that we ought to give factory operators plenty of time to help them plan their business and the factory itself. I cannot agree with him more. Yes, there will be JTC industrial lands whose leases will very soon expire. But when this lease expires, the land together with the buildings and the improvements will revert to JTC in accordance with the terms of the lease. And JTC will renew the lease for a further term equivalent, of course, to the original term provided the lessee is engaged in an industry which is not undesirable or pollutive. Upon renewal, the land rent will be revised to the prevailing market rate. In addition, the lessee will have to pay a premium for the building. For leases that expire before the year 2000, the Government's approved policy is to levy a premium which takes into account the historical cost of the buildings rather than the open market value, as well as the length of the period for which the lease is further renewed. The Member also raised the point of sales of JTC factories. JTC can consider selling an entire block of flatted factories to a single tenant. However, it will not sell individual units in a block of a multi-tenanted flatted factories because a combination of sold and rented factories within the same block will give rise to numerous management problems and will also make it difficult for tenants to expand their operations within the estate. And, finally, the JTC will probably be conceived to be in competition with owners of private flatted factories, factories which are predominantly built for sale.”
“At the end of it all, the important thing is that, because it is likely that we will not be self-sufficient in water, we have to ensure that we educate our population to make sure that they understand this position we are in and that they do all that they can together with us to conserve water and to protect our precious water resources.”
“Sir, I would like to thank the Member for Bo Wen for his concern for this precious resource of ours - water supply. Yes, I would say that the Government is doing all it can to study the various sources that are available, that can be tapped. The key criterion at the end of it all is cost. If the cost is affordable, then we can proceed. If the cost is too prohibitive, then we have to go for other sources of water. For instance, the Member has raised the point of desalination. We have indeed looked into desalination of sea-water but, as of now, the cost is still rather prohibitive. But I would think that with advances of technology in desalination, the day will come when desalination of sea-water may become a feasible proposal. The Government's main criterion is to develop all the available water resources in Singapore, and this has been done. We are currently studying a secondary source of non-potable water, and that is, at Marina Bay. But it is only at the study stage. Nothing concrete has come out of it. But the important thing to note here is that this is a secondary source. It is not possible, at least as of now, to think that we will be able to get fresh drinking water out of it. It is only a secondary source of water. The other point the Member raised is the joint study we are having with the Malaysian Government on Johor's water resources, and he wants to know the position we are in. All that I can say at this stage is that the study is on-going but I do not know the details as to which stage we are in.”
“Sir, I am not really au fait with this particular subject or as to what SIA or the airline authority has been doing. Perhaps if the Member would file a question for oral answer, I might be able to check up the details for him.”
“Sir, on the point on cooperation with Asean countries on tourism, this is an on-going project. I believe my Minister has covered that part on Johor earlier this morning. For the rest of ASEAN, all I would say is that as and when the regions around us develop their resorts and so on, we will in one way or another benefit from it. There will also be joint advertising campaigns, there will also be promotional efforts jointly in Europe and in America to encourage tour operators to plan their tours in such a way that Singapore will also be one of the stop-overs and we can then get the rub-off from these various benefits. The other matter is the resort hospital. I am not in a position to comment on that. I do not know whether or not it will be more appropriate for the Minister for Health to answer.”
“These are the restoration of the Empress Place Building into a museum to stage international exhibitions, the restoration and conservation of Tanjong Pagar, the conversion of Alkaff Mansion into a venue for theme parties, redevelopment of Haw Par Villa into a Chinese Mythological Theme Park, restoration of Bugis Street, construction of an undersea world on Sentosa. There will be projects that are expected to be ready in the early part of the 1990's. This is the Causeway Link from the Mainland to Sentosa, the redevelopment of Fort Canning Park and the Singapore Entertainment Centre. Sir, I wish to assure Members that all Government agencies responsible are aware of the need to implement theirrespective projects as soon as possible. There is in place a Tourism Product Development Working Committee to facilitate planning and coordination. There are some other points which the Member has raised. Upgrading of Raffles Hotel. The latest on the Raffles Hotel project is as follows. First of all, the present owner has submitted restoration proposal to URA and Planning Department for comments and approval based on guidelines drawn up by the URA. The relevant authorities are now assessing the proposal and it is expected that the restoration plan will probably be completed by the end of 1990. Meanwhile the State land that is adjoining Raffles Hotel has also been put up for open tender by URA. Three bids were received on the closing date and URA is expected to award the development of the adjoining land by May 1988. There is a question on counterfeiting and touting. Sir, appeals have been made to us. We are in the process of discussion with the Ministry of Law and Ministry of Home Affairs and I think the Member can expect an announcement in the near future.”
“Sir, the Member for Leng Kee has asked for the latest on the Tourism Product Development projects at Sentosa. First of all, the projects already completed are the new Ferry Terminal, the formal garden plaza and also the first phase of the Waterfront Promenade. There are projects which will be completed by 1989. This will include the $30 million upgrading of the beaches and lagoons on Sentosa. And, of course, when that is completed, Sentosa will have one of the best beaches in this part of the world. There is also the $8 million Sentosa Plaza which is a pedestrian walkway linking the Ferry Terminal to the beaches on the other side of the island. Sir, two sites on Sentosa were recently awarded to private investors to develop a resort hotel and an underwater world attraction. Work is expected to commence this year and will probably be completed by 1990 and 1989 respectively. Four projects have gone out to tender. They are the rehabilitation and re-use of colonial buildings, the upgrading of Fort Siloso and the Asian Cultural Village. There is a longer-term project, ie, the Causeway Link which is expected to be in place by 1992. The Member has raised a question on the $1 billion Tourism Product Development Plan. I am glad to report to the Member that much progress has been made since the announcement of the $1 billion Tourism Product Development Fund. The projects completed so far are: restoration of Changi Chapel, the construction of the new Ferry Terminal on Sentosa, the first phase of the Sentosa Plaza, the first phase of the Sentosa Waterfront Promenade and boating activities along Singapore River. There are projects that were likely to be completed within the first 1 and 1� years.”
“Sir, I cannot agree that there is zero social life in housing estates.”
“Sir, I agree with the Member for Paya Lebar that pasar malam has this potential of bringing life to an otherwise quiet, desolate place. But where HDB estates are concerned, I would have imagined that there is plenty of life around. So it is really not necessary to bring life back to HDB estates.”
“Sir, pasar malam, as referred to by the Member for Paya Lebar, is commonly understood as the setting up of stalls by individuals on the streets, car parks and void decks. This is similar to street hawking. As a policy, the Ministry does not allow or encourage such activity. However, exceptions have been made for the Singapore Tourist Promotion Board to hold sales of goods for tourists at the Singapore River during festival periods. Permission was also given to STPB to hold sales of goods within the courtyard of the Singapore Handicraft Centre as this is not tantamount to street hawking. Street hawking in HDB estates cannot be permitted. Besides, in HDB estates, there is really no need for pasar malam. The infrastructure of HDB estates is planned with supporting facilities such as shops, markets and food centres and in the newer estates supermarkets, neighbourhood stalls and specialty shops are provided. Facilities are therefore not lacking in HDB estates.”
“I just take the one that I can answer briefly first. The Member for Boon Teck asked whether we are satisfied with the checking system. Yes, we are indeed satisfied. And just to give the Member an idea, I give some figures of food poisoning cases as compared with other countries. The number of cases per million population: Singapore 236.2; USA, 275.8; UK, 278.4; Japan 364.5. This means that we have less food poisoning cases than many of the even developed countries. Does the PDMS apply also to food establishments? The answer is yes. It applies to all food establishments, small or big, including restaurants in hotels. The Member for Changi wants to know whether food operators are aware of requirements for food handling. The answer is yes, they know. We have a continuous education programme going on. At the same time, we issue guidelines and pamphlets to such food establishments. Also, once in a while we require them to attend talks and slide shows. And during those talks and slide shows, we again explain to them the requirements of proper food handling and, of course, in the constituencies once in a while we have exhibitions, mini exhibitions and mini campaigns. By the time we do all this, I think most food handlers should know the requirements of proper food handling. If they do not, then of course it is like bringing the horse to the water but you cannot force it to drink.”
“Sir, I cannot say I am concerned because these people know what work they can do. If they are willing to work as hawker assistants and not as a welder, so be it.”
“Sir, there are no two managements, as the Member for Ayer Rajah sees it. Actually all hawker policies come under the ambit of the Ministry of the Environment. We approve all applications for licences and after they are approved we send the applications to HDB, should they indicate they want markets under the HDB.”
“I will come to it. He said that 949 cases were successful in getting hawker stalls and 4,774 applicants failed to get hawker licences in 1986. The 949 sucessful cases were the people who satisfied hardship criteria. The other 4,774 failed the hardship criteria and therefore we do not consider them any more.”
“Sir, the Member in his speech said that 949 people qualified for hardship criteria.”
“Sir, on hawker assistants, it all depends on market forces. If the hawker stallholder offers to pay more to a person who is willing to take up the job of hawker assistant, then of course he will take on the job. I cannot force him not to work as a hawker assistant. The other point is about coffeeshops. It is also very straightforward. Where coffeeshops are concerned, it is again a question of market forces. If a hawker is willing to pay that much rent to the owner of a coffeeshop, then so be it. You cannot go and regulate the rates and say who can pay and who cannot pay what rent. It must depend on market forces.”
“Sir, I do not think I should let the Member for Whampoa go so easily and also the Member for Ayer Rajah who claims to be the champion of MPs. May I just take the points raised by the other Members. It is just that I thought silence means consent. I did not know it irritated or it touched a few raw nerves. First, the Member for Whampoa. I did not say that young people are not willing to become hawkers. They are not willing to take up market produce stalls. I think there is a lot of difference between becoming a hawker and taking up a market produce stall. I would, in fact, offer that to the Member for Whampoa and let him choose. Which do you want? To be a hawker or to take up a market produce stall? The reason why I did not reply to the Member for Cairnhill is that there is a little bit of misunderstanding of the figures in the Annual Report, and I thought I would discuss with him quietly outside. However, since he did not press for an answer, I would not give an answer.”
“And if they can overcome the problem, they have suggestions, then I think my Ministry would look at the Member for Chong Boon's suggestion favourably. We can work together, make arrangements and work out the conditions. But as of now, sorry. But if the Member comes out with an answer tomorrow, maybe we can consider. Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah raised the question of wet markets being phased out indiscriminately by the Ministry of the Environment. This also has something to do with the resiting of street hawkers from the early days. Today it is the problem of ageing of these hawkers. These hawkers were once strong, healthy people. They were prepared to get up early in the morning, dash to the auction market, bid for market produce and then return to the market to await the throngs of housewives that come to the market. There are very few of them left today. Modern day Singaporeans, the younger ones, with their education are not prepared to do business in market produce. They would prefer to take up a job where the knowledge they gain from their education would be more relevant. So empty stalls pile and the Member for Cairnhill and the Member for Telok Blangah have accurately observed that there are vacant market stalls all over Singapore. We will have to monitor the situation. If it gets bad, then appropriate action will have to be taken. It is not that the Ministry goes round indiscriminately demolishing wet markets. We agree with the Member for Telok Blangah that there is still a place for the wet market in Singapore. While there is a demand, we will do all we can within our means to upgrade these markets but until the day comes when they have to close because of no takers, then we cannot just leave them there doing nothing.”
“The points raised by the Member for Chong Boon regarding under-utilization of hawker stalls and the point raised by the Member for Cairnhill regarding the high percentage of vacant stalls in the Cuppage Road Market, both have a common origin. The root of these problems lies in the ever-fast, rapidly improving social and economic conditions in Singapore. That is why we have these problems. In the 1950's and 1960's, if Members can recall, there were thousands of street hawkers lining all our streets, our backlanes and they were all over the place. They were in every nook and cranny. In fact, they were causing a great nuisance, traffic jams, pollution control problems and as a group they were a public health threat. So in 1969 the Government had to act - to house all of them in what is called "modern hawker centres". So they all were housed in modern hawker centres with clean water, with gas and with electricity. What happens today? The business of the street hawkers in these hawker centres flourished. They have grown and they have developed. And the stalls have become smaller in relation to the brisk business they have, causing congestion and if we are not careful, it will become a public health threat. That is the reason why we cannot, or at least at this point of time, immediately agree with the Member for Chong Boon to allow two persons to share a stall because it would only aggravate the congestion problem. If we are not careful, it will become a public health threat. However, in the future when there are town councils, then I think the town councils can spend their time looking for all kinds of ways to overcome the problem.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the Points Demerit System was implemented on 14th September 1987 after a one-month long campaign where hawkers were reminded to observe good food and personal hygiene. Since the implementation of the system up to 1st March 1988, a total of 98 cases of food hygiene violations were convicted in court and consequently given demerit points. So far, no hawker licences have been suspended or revoked under the system Hawkers are now more conscious of the need to keep their stalls clean and observe good food and personal hygiene. There has been some improvement in the standards of cleanliness and hygiene in the food centres. MRT CONCESSIONAL STORED-VALUE TICKET FOR SENIOR CITIZENS 6. Mr Teo Chong Tee asked the Minister for Communications and Information what is the rationale for the Mass Rapid Transit Corporation to insist that senior citizens show their Singapore Bus Service special concession pass first before allowing them to purchase the concessional stored-value ticket; whether the MRTC will consider allowing them concession for single trip travel; and why is it necessary for MRTC to confine the concessional travel only during the off-peak period.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, we are aware that there are people who take up stalls but do not make a success out of it. But I do not think that is reason enough to totally stop offering stalls to hardship cases or to people who want to operate a hawker stall as a business. We are actually keeping another channel of assistance open to people who look to the Government for some kind of assistance. It is like the Employment Service in the Labour Ministry. You can have thousands of jobs available but only a few takers. In this case, we have got some stalls but also a few takers. But at least the options are there and they can choose whatever they want. Of course, in this particular case, he is going into a hawker business which is setting up a small business enterprise. And I would presume that he would have done some calculations and take the necessary calculated risk. In the case of tendering these stalls, we can consider it. I do not think there is any hard and fast rule to say that we cannot tender these stalls. But if you want my immediate reaction to it, it is only bringing the problem from one area to another area. But as long as the stalls remain vacant for one reason or another, it will remain vacant, whether you tender them out or not. HAWKERS' POINT DEMERIT SYSTEM (Progress report) 5. Mr Chew Heng Ching asked the Minister for the Environment if he will report on the progress of the implementation of the Hawkers' Point Demerit System and whether this scheme has been effective in ensuring a higher standard of hygiene in food centres.”
“We can look into that as well. SUPPLY AND SUPPLEMENTARY SUPPLY BILLS Resolved, That, notwithstanding the Standing Orders, the second and third readings of the Supply Bill for FY 88/89 and the Supplementary Supply Bill for FY 87/88 may be proceeded with immediately after the conclusion of the proceedings on the Main and Development Estimates for FY 88/89. - [Dr Richard Hu Tsu Tau.] [Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair] MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1988 TO 31ST MARCH, 1989 Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [1st Allotted Day]. 11.04 am [Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]”
“Sir, the Ministry has taken its stand not to build any more hawker centres but in its review of long term hawker centres, as long as it has something to do with hawker centres, we will review it.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the answer to the first question is yes. Among the various standards that we have looked at, two are worth mentioning. One is the United States Food and Drug Administration and the other is the FAO/WHO Expert Committee Standards. These bodies set standards which determine whether a disposable crockery made of expandable polystyrene is or is not food grade. Extensive tests are carried out by us in the Environment, and I am pleased to inform the Member that so far disposable crockery used by hawkers meet the standards of these two food authorities. They are therefore very safe for use. On the other question of reusing disposable crockery, my Ministry views this practice very seriously. Any stallholder or any hawker who is caught reusing disposable crockery will be appropriately brought to task. Disposable crockery by its very nature means that it must be disposed of. It cannot be reused. There is no possibility, in fact, of disposable crockery being washed and reused because they are very flimsy. In fact, when we first introduced disposable crockery in hawker centres, there was already talk that hawkers were likely to reuse the disposable crockery. So from the very start, we were already very careful in our checks of hawker centres to make sure that this is not really the case. Here again, I would like to assure the Member for Buona Vista and the public that we have so far not caught or found any hawker reusing disposable crockery. EXTENSION OF PARF FOR PRIVATE MOTOR CARS 8. Mr Chiam See Tong asked the Minister for Communications and Information whether he will extend the period of eligibility for Preferential Additional Registration Fee in respect of privately owned motor-cars from 10 years to 15 years.”
“We went on to talk about the quantum of fine to impose. And, of course, he would try to tau chia huan chia, trying to reduce the fine. So he said Mr Jeyaretnam had a good case. And he forgot now to quote or at least refer to Mr Barker who said that the quotation from Erskine May which Mr Jeyaretnam submitted was irrelevant. And that is why I did not bother to quote it.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I do not normally like to waste time but because I have now been accused, then of course I have to defend myself. Yes, I am looking at page 8 of the verbatim report. Mr Chiam See Tong said: 'They are liable. There is no doubt about that. I think on that point we all agree.' I cannot read it and understand it in any other way. If Mr Chiam says that he has got a case, let us go back again. They all agreed. We went on to the stage where we were talking about how much fine to impose. It is a different thing altogether. The Committee proceeded. We went on to talk about ---”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, despite all the opportunities given to him, all the time given to him, despite the fact that he had only been punished recently, he persisted to mislead Singaporeans. Sir, the Fifth Report of the Committee of Privileges has made it patently clear that Mr Jeyaretname is non-repentant and will not be repentant at all. And for this reason, I would urge Members of this House to disregard what the Member for Potong Pasir has said and to support the Fifth Report of the Committee of Privileges.”
“What is appallingly unbelievable is the fact that only last year he attempted to discredit Parliament and only at the beginning of this year he was fined. He was fined $5,000 for every letter that he issued to his constituents. Yet he was not deterred. He and his Workers' Party Council published the January/February '87 issue of the Hammer and in one of the articles he designed again to mislead Singaporeans on the proceedings of the Committee of Privileges. If that is not shocking, I do not know what is shocking. Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I really cannot understand Mr Jeyaretnam. The Government has given him ample opportunities. In fact, the Government has in a way gone through all the trouble, even moving heaven and earth, so to say, simply to give him those opportunities, the time, to justify his accusations against the Government. Various witnesses were called to the inquiry. The Attorney-General attended. As regards the Chief Justice, I was told by my friends that no country in the world, in fact, if there ever were countries it must be very few, where the Chief Justice could be produced for an ordinary Member of Parliament to quiz. He graciously appeared. The Prime Minister and I am sure we all can recall that Mr Jeyaretnam did not have the Prime Minister in his list of people he wanted to call up. It was the Prime Minister who magnanimously volunteered to go into the witness box for Mr Jeyaretnam to quiz. Ample time was given to him, ample opportunities were given to him. What did Mr Jeyaretnam achieve? Just one result. He wasted everybody's time. What he did not achieve is that he did not make out a case. He did not prove his accusations.”
“We already knew that earlier on in the 2nd Report if I can remember that a fine of $5,000 was already approved by Parliament for each letter that Mr Jeyaretnam issued to his constituents. Here is a second offence. So it is very easy to set the quantum of fine. Why should we not do it by vote? Because if we do not do it by vote, we will be sitting in the Committee meeting just talking about $1, $2, a huge sum, whether it is deterrent enough and so on and so forth. I will establish later on that there must be some deterrence in the fines for such offences. Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will now just take a few minutes to persuade my fellow Members of Parliament to support the Report of the Committee of Privileges. First, I think we have to accept that Mr Jeyaretnam, the ex-MP for Anson, many times in this House maintained that Parliament is the highest court of the land. And I think the Member for Potong Pasir also has in this House maintained that Parliament is the highest court of the land. If Parliament is the highest court of the land, then surely it does not need a senior lawyer to also accept that there must be honour, there must be respect, there must be decorum, accorded to such a supreme institution such as this Parliament. Furthermore, it is very surprising though but may be not to Mr Jeyaretnam, but Mr Jeyaretnam should realize that it is downright despicable to represent the proceedings of Parliament through devious writings and speeches. Yet he goes on dishonouring Parliament, he goes on disrespecting Parliament, that very institution that he refers to as the highest court of the land, for whatever reason I do not know.”
“--- he is not a very strong debater. You cannot compare Mr Teo Sing Lim, the printer of the Hammer, with three miserable members of the Workers' Party Council for a start. The point is that the Workers' Party Council is guilty of contempt and the Workers' Party Council is represented by Mr Jeyaretnam who holds the permit. And his co-editor, if the Member for Potong Pasir can remember in the proceedings of the Committee of Privileges, is Mr Wong Hong Toy. We are holding all these members jointly, severally responsible for that misleading article in the Hammer. The Member for Potong Pasir says you cannot represent everything in 500 words. We are not saying that at all. What we are saying is that whether it is one word, one sentence or a voluminous book, the point is that there was a distortion of the truth. In fact, I would say Mr Jeyaretnam very concisely distorted the proceedings of the Committee of Privileges. "And can you say", he asked, "that Mr Jeyaretnam is completely wrong in that little short article in the Hammer?" As I said, read in its entirety, the whole article is distorted. And if distortion is not wrong, then what is wrong? "He doesn't know", says the Member for Potong Pasir, "how the Committee arrived at that huge sum of money." And claimed that he was there but they all did it by vote. We did it by vote because the Member for Potong Pasir agreed that the Workers' Party Council together with Mr Jeyaretnam were guilty. He said, "They are liable", if I can remember his words. "They are liable. There is no doubt about the fact that they are liable." That is what he said. And then he went on, to use what the Chinese would say, tau chia huan chia. We are not there to bargain on fines.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the article in question read in its entirety, paying attention to the headline, is indeed a gross distortion of the proceedings of Parliament. But before I go on to say a few words to support the findings of the Committee of Privileges, can I just take a few minutes to demolish the points raised by the Member for Potong Pasir, although I do not enjoy doing it because ---”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, before lunch I was elaborating on the various activities that the two agencies will have in order to incorporate quality consciousness as part of the total approach to productivity. The other area of assistance that the two agencies can give to local businesses and companies is to help them upgrade their management practices and, of course, where there are problems of quality to be resolved, SISIR will take steps to see if they can provide the assistance, help them to upgrade their quality. And, of course, I did mention earlier on that November will be the Productivity Month and this year quality will be the focus of the Productivity Month. So for us to achieve this objective of being productive, to achieve productivity and to produce goods and services of acceptable levels which international consumers will accept, it is important that all of us play a part in the promotion of quality consciousness among our employers and our workers. And I know that the Member for Thomson will spare no effort to assist us and he will get his association to dovetail all its activities with the broader activities which NPB and SISIR will have for the year.”
“Sir, I have taken note of the concern of the Member for Thomson. Some of the issues that we will have to spend some time thinking about, we will think about them. But I will reply to him in general first. The Member for Thomson is concerned about which is more important, quality or productivity, and he laments that of the huge budget of the NPB nothing is seen to be spent on promotion of quality. I am pleased to inform him that he is wrong. First and foremost, the Member for Thomson has to realize that quality and productivity are actually both a pair of Siamese twins. It is very, very difficult to separate one from the other. In fact, properly nurtured, both working well together, it will produce a synergistic effect. So it is very difficult to say which is more important and to say the NPB has not given due importance to quality is really not very accurate. In fact, in the next productivity month, which will be in November, the focus will be on quality. Therefore, the Member for Thomson can rest assured that we will do all we can to promote productivity and quality together as inextricably intertwined entities. In future, all our programmes will be focused thus. We will incorporate into our programmes the need to make Singaporeans quality conscious and this will be part of a total approach to productivity. To achieve this objective, the NPB and the Singapore Institute of Standards and Industrial Research together will have all kinds of activities to help us pave the way to this objective. We will have a mass training programme of workers. Of course, the funds will have to be found. The idea is to inculcate quality consciousness in our workers and to make sure they understand what quality and productivity is all about.”
“Except one. I did not want to say so but if you persuade me, I will say so. I think we all care for the people who voted for us. And we have great concern for them, how they survive, how their children get their education and survive in future. But I think all that we can do as a Government is to provide the infrastructure for Singaporeans to take advantage of and to compete, not just among ourselves, but more so with the world. I think that is the key point. It is like a family. Parents can provide all the infrastructure, all the guidance, to bring up their children. But at the end of it all, whether the child passes his examinations depends on the child and not on the parents. Whether the child does well depends on the child. Whether businessmen do well in their business depends on them and not just on the Government. I hope I have answered all the points.”
“But I am not only talking to him, I presume, with the presence of television. We are also explaining to those who are concerned. Therefore, if I appear to be too basic, harping on the same tune all the time, I think the Member for Leng Kee will have to forgive me. The presence of foreign departmental stores in Singapore has also a salubrious effect, in the sense that they have very modern ways of doing things. And when our locals patronize these stores and so on, they will learn something new. They will go back and they will implement it in whatever trade they practise. I think the idea of mini-supermarkets also has this as its origin. The presence of foreign supermarkets and departmental stores in Singapore, whilst providing the competition, also provides competition in prices. The end result, of course, is that the prices become competitive and Singaporeans as well as tourists can enjoy cheap or reasonable prices. How do we help our locals? We will do all we can to help our locals. It is not that we do not care. I think the important thing that Singaporeans ought to realize is that they must not have the attitude that the Government has to hold their hands from cradle to grave. The sooner they get rid of this mentality, of course, the better it is. We are all PAP MPs.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, I will take the points raised by the Member for Leng Kee and the Member for Kampong Kembangan. Both Members raised their concern on foreign departmental stores in Singapore. They want to know if the huge presence of foreign departmental stores in Singapore would squeeze out the local departmental stores. They also want to know whether we are attracting too many Singaporeans into our departmental stores, hence starving our manufacturing industries of workers. And whether we would find some ways to help our locals in this particular area of trade and also to find ways and means to make Singapore a shopping paradise. First, Sir, I am pleased to let both Members know that there is no fear of too many or a heavy preponderance of foreign departmental stores in Singapore. According to the 1985 survey on wholesale and retail trades, local capital accounts for more than 70% of departmental stores in Singapore. Whether we would do something about the presence of foreign departmental stores in Singapore, to explain this I think I will have to apologize for what I am about to do - they say in Mandarin, Ban Men Nong Fu. I do not pretend that I am an expert. But all I would say is that Singapore practises an open door policy in retail trade and most of our trade practices. It is good because it encourages healthy competition. It forces people to upgrade if they want to survive. It encourages automation. It encourages better packaging. It encourages better presentation, more convenient, one-stop shopping and so on and so forth. Those who want to survive, of course, will have to upgrade their productivity and their way of doing things, their management and so on. And I am very very sure that the Member for Leng Kee is aware of this.”
“We are not telling them what to do. All I am just saying is that it would be good if you can encourage them to pick up a job. All I am saying also is that by giving them a stall, it does not mean that we are doing them a favour. So we are not telling them what to do. In fact we are helping them. That is the crux. We have given them, but as I have told you, if the business is bad, and he does not know how to cook, he does not produce good food, nobody eats his food, you do them a disservice by causing them to invest money in the stall and end up poorer.”
“The simple answer is that to do that kind of a service to the Cuppage Market Centre would require more than just conversion because you require a refreshment area, you require to build up your area for preparing your food and so on and so forth. So it is not a very simple thing to do and it costs money. The easier thing to do is if you have any hawker that is suffering because of poor business, then as I said, we are prepared to offer our assistance by allowing them to transfer stalls. In response to the point brought up by the Member for Jalan Kayu, again he does not understand what I am trying to drive at. When I say "hardship cases", giving them hawker stalls is not the only way to help them. In fact, you are doing them a disservice. If they cannot cook, that means they do not have culinary skills. What you are doing is, if you give them a stall, they have to spend a little fortune to set up the stall and then they find that nobody wants to eat whatever he is selling, and then he loses that amount of money he has invested in the stall. So all I am saying is that sometimes you do them service by encouraging them to pick up a job. Okay, the salary may be small, maybe $400 or so, but at least he does not run at a loss. That is all I said.”
“All right, you are talking about the market centre then. So where the market is concerned, it still serves a purpose. There are some people who like to go there to buy their market produce. I believe the Member for Buona Vista does his marketing there and I would not be surprised if he goes to that market and he finds more interesting figures there. So I do not think we want to knock down any of those stalls there. Those that are empty, we will keep them it empty for a while. If any of the existing stalls that are there, any of the hawker finds that he wants to transfer to another more lucrative centre, then we will consider them. That is the way we help the people at the market.”
“You are also referring to the hawker centre. May I remind the Member that this hawker centre is teeming with business. There are no empty stalls at all in his hawker centre. All the stalls are filled to the brim and when there is a vacancy, my dear Friend, it is grabbed. Dr Wong Kwei Cheong: Just a clarification. The food centre is full but the market produce centre which is just one floor below is half-empty.”
“Those people you see driving Mercedes Benzes and so on are the ones with culinary skills, whether or not we have given them a hawker stall. It so happens that they were poor and at the same time had culinary skills at the point of time when hawker stalls were available. You bring a hawker with culinary skills to one of those most unknown hawker stall or hawker centre, and he will build up his business for you to see. So there is no question of whether or not the hawker stalls are in remote, unpopular areas and so on and so forth. It is just that they have no culinary skills. I was told when the hawkers were to be resettled from Gluttons Corner they went on a mission to the temple to pray to their gods. They prayed that they would not be given Newton Hawker Centre. In those days Newton Hawker Centre was never popular. But when they went there, lo and behold, business came rushing in. I think I have to say, over and over again, that getting a hawker stall does not make one any better. It is your skill that counts. If you have the skill, you can even bid for a stall that cost $2,000 and yet make money. But let me remind Members that we are a small island with a small population and a small workforce. And we have vacancies in manufacturing firms, in the hotel sector, in the finance and business sector, the transport and communications sector, and so on and so forth and they require manpower. If a person is really a hardship case and still able-bodied, whether he is 30 years or 45 years old, I think that person should be encouraged to look for a job. In as far as the point made by the Member for Cairnhill is concerned, can I just clarify one point with him. Is he talking about his hawker centre or his market?”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, can I just reply to the Member for Ayer Rajah first? I thought earlier on we have established that human beings cannot talk to cats. Now, I find that even human beings cannot talk to human beings, and this is a very, very sad state of affairs. When I first replied to the Member for Boon Teck, I thought I prefaced my reply by advising him that he should not see their geese as swans. What I mean is, do not see something terrible in Western developed countries as something beautiful. And then I went on to say that if it is a good idea, we will consider it. That is, we will consider the idea of these mobile vans provided they conform to our food regulations, and to traffic regulations and the regulations of all the other Ministries. But that is not to give the impression that we have so much red tape that we cannot bring in a van to sell hot dogs. No, it is not that. We have just got to be careful with whatever we do before we bring in something from a Western developed country into the Singapore environment. We just want to be careful. That is all. The Member for Jalan Kayu lamented on the way hardship cases are made to go around looking for hawker stalls and eventually ending up with no hawker stall. And then put the blame on Government, I suppose, that we are not doing anything for them or that we should be doing something for them. I would just say that the Government has long ago decided not to build any more hawker centres, both the HDB and the Environment Ministry. So we would not be building any more hawker centres. One must realize that getting a hawker stall does not necessarily mean that after one month or one year we are going to end up driving a Mercedes Benz. No.”
“Yes, "high-tech" more or less, then we will support the idea. But if you mean just marking out some pitches along Shenton Way to sell hot-dogs or to sell curry puffs, I think we have to be very careful before going into this kind of idea. The Member for Telok Blangah wanted a campaign to eradicate stray cats, if I have got him right. Let us recap the objective of a campaign. I thought a campaign is for human beings to talk to human beings. But for human beings to talk to cats, it is not possible! When we have a campaign, we try to pass a clear message, for example, Don't Spit, Speak Mandarin, Don't Litter, or Keep Singapore Clean and Green - very short clear measages. I do not know how we are going to organize a campaign to keep the cats away. They are stray cats.”
“All I can say, actually for a start, as a prelude to this discussion on street hawkers, is that I only hope that what you see as swans are not geese in the Western countries. In other words, do not see these geese as swans. We have to be very careful because we cannot transplant an idea directly from a Western nation or Western country, a developed country, into Singapore. We have our durians, they have their apples. If we want to eat apples, it is better to eat fresher apples in countries where apples are grown. But they do not taste as nice in Singapore. So with that preface, I will now move on to discuss whether or not we agree with the idea of the Member for Boon Teck and, the Member for Changkat. As you know, we have already got our own colourful fairs. Once in a while you see them in the form of the Hongbao Special which was recently organized to celebrate the Lunar New Year. You will also see some of these fairs at the Handicraft Centre. But if you mean the kind of fairs of a higher value-added kind of activities ---”
“In fact, currently there are pilot projects going on in Singapore at three hawker centres - one at Cuppage Road, the others at Adam Road Hawker Centre and Newton Hawker Centre - where the hawkers work together with a cleaning contractor. The cleaning contractor goes round collecting all the disposables, cleaning tables, and so on and so forth for a fee. This is a pilot project. If it is successful, then we will want to further this idea of self-management of hawker centres. The Member for Buona Vista suggested that we issue some pamphlets in relation to the proper use of disposables. I will ask my officers to look into this. The Member for Boon Teck, before he was cut off, I believe, raised the question of the return of the street hawkers. I hope he does not mean the old street hawkers that we saw many years ago which my Minister has earlier on referred to. But I hope he is referring to what the Member for Changkat has raised, some of the more ---”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, many Members spoke on the standard of food hygiene practised in our hawker centres. They lament on the rather shoddy way in which food utensils and so on are handled. I agree with them. I would also like to assure them that the Ministry does keep a very close watch and surveillance on hawkers and the way they handle food. I believe the inspectors go round every day to check our hawkers on food handling. And, of course, if they are found to contravene any food regulations, as far as food handling is concerned, then they would be summarily, I would say, summoned. So Members can rest assured that we are doing our work. Maybe, as a matter of interest, Members would like to know that we have very recently thought of revising our system of law enforcement, and that is, in the possible introduction of a points demerit system, somewhat like what the Traffic Police have. The only difference is that, with our points demerit system, we do not have a compounding system. Demerit points are given for the various kinds of offences. If a hawker accumulates enough points over a one-year period, then of course his hawker licence will be retained for two weeks, or one month, or for a longer time depending on how serious the offence is or how many points he has accumulated. The system has not been finalized yet. We will probably be discussing it with our GPC members to get their inputs. But suffice it to say, that is a new system of control of food handlers that will be introduced in the near future. I think the Member for Buona Vista and perhaps the Member for Boon Teck spoke on privatization of hawker centres. Perhaps what they mean is self-management of hawker centres. If they mean self-management of hawker centres, then we agree with them.”
“The Member for Whampoa disagreed with this idea of disposables because he has seen at times contents on the lap of some customers and therefore he disagreed with it. Actually this subject of disposables had been disposed of a week ago when I answered a Question for Oral answer by the Member for Cairnhill. But just to give him a quick reply, all I can say is that the first step is always very troublesome. There are teething troubles and so on. But that does not mean that we should not go ahead with it. We will on the other hand be careful, like the Member for Changkat has suggested, in rushing into this whole idea of disposables and then getting ourselves into maybe a quagmire which we cannot come out. We will bear that in mind. Where the revival of Bugis Street is concerned, I have already replied to that as an answer to the Member for Henderson and I do not think I need to go any further into it.”
“I think that suggestion also ties in with the Member for Henderson. The Member for Henderson however suggested that over and above this, he also wanted Singapore to be an international food centre, which we are, of course, trying. A good example would be the new Bugis Street. The new Bugis Street is exactly for that purpose. The old Bugis Street was very well known for its hawker food. If you go there, you can find all kinds of hawker cuisine, Hokkien, Cantonese, Indian and Malay food. And people go there for the food. We are recreating the new Bugis Street exactly for that purpose and to give it an international name. As regards upgrading of hawker centres, I think there is an end point that we have to consider. After that end point, I think anything we think of doing will be almost impossible because it involves knocking down and rebuilding the centre. But before that end point, there is much we can do. For example, retiling, doing up the tables, doing up the walls and so on and so forth. I believe that every year we spend about $1.5 million just on the upgrading of hawker centres. And the Member for Henderson can rest assured that it is not only done in my constituency. It is done in phases and it goes round Singapore and one day the repair works will also come to the Henderson Constituency. But, of course, knowing the condition of his hawker centre or market, I think one of them is not in very good condition and if repair works cannot be done, then demolition work may have to be carried out. The Member for Changkat has supported us in our move to introduce disposables at the five pilot hawker centres. I thank her for that again and I thank her GPC members for their support.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, I will take the points very quickly. First of all, I wish to thank the Member for Changkat who is also the Chairman of the Environment GPC and her Members for the good word that they have given to the Ministry of the Environment. I am very sure that the officers in the Ministry will work doubly hard after her encouragement, especially from an attractive young lady. The Member for Changkat has suggested that our hawker centres ought to be upgraded. Am I correct?”