Eugene Yap Giau Cheng
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to know from the Minister whether he would like to put up a fence to prevent trespassing. Mr Lim Hng Kiang: We also do not want to put up a fence because when the land is being built, we have got to tear down the fence. That would be a waste of public resources. We control our expenditure very tightly.”
“Sir, I am making this amendment to stress to the Minister that the ethnic integration policy introduced in 1989 has in some way affected the quality of life of my constituents. I believe this probably has also an effect in old estates such as Queenstown and Bukit Ho Swee.”
“Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Code SA 1500 of the Main Estimates. Sir, not so long ago, in the New Paper, there was a report on a man who was supposed to be the executor of the estate of the deceased brother and he was trying very hard to withdraw the CPF money of his deceased…”
“It means "We are poor people. We do not have CPF. How can we buy our own homes?" Sir, I think we ought to do something for them. When they first moved into these homes, they had no trouble because they were young, the children were young, no space constraints, but today the children have grown up, they become adults - four, five or six of…”
“Sir, I would like the Minister to reconsider the policy of not allowing Singaporeans to rent 3-room flats. This policy is already 10 years old, introduced in 1982, and I recall that when it was introduced it was meant to encourage Singaporeans to own their own homes.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, can I ask the Minister to clarify a point which he made in his long speech? If indeed the purpose is to subject motorists to some inconvenience by not expanding or building more roads in the city area, then why was there an announcement in the press recently to expand the PIE?”
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“When you are used to one way of doing things, you stick to that way of doing things, rightly or wrongly. But when we know as a matter of fact that disposable utensils are much better, they are more productive, they reduce the risk to consumers in terms of safeguarding their health, and when we know that it is a saving on our water resources and we know also that there are advantages plus, plus, plus; then of course we have to go out and persuade them. And I think that it is good if Members of Parliament will join us in this crusade because it will help us at the end of it all to achieve the targets of the Vision of 1999. Some hon. Members rose -”
“I have already given the explanation earlier on in my answer to one of the Members. Yes, it is going to cost about 10 cents more per service. But weigh this against the tremendous advantages the hawker gets out of this system. That 10 cents will be nothing. I do not think he should raise prices because there is no justification for it at all.”
“On the actual costing, no. But I have got the prices of some of these polystyrene containers and the Member may wish to know what the costs are like. If you use a small bowl, it is 3 cents. If you use a medium sized bowl it is 3 1/2 cents, and a large bowl is about 7 cents. As for the plates, it is the same, about 3 cents, 5 cents and 6 cents. For spoons it is 1 1/4 cents. A fork and spoon cost 2 1/2 cents. Chopsticks cost 1 1/4 cents. So you can almost estimate that it is not very much.”
“I think that is a good idea and I will ask the Ministry to look into it.”
“We will do what we can. But I think the Member for Jalan Kayu is aware that we believe in free market forces. In the newspapers, somebody wrote to say that there was an increase of 50 cents or 60 cents or something like that. If I am a consumer, I will just not go to that stall. Eventually, market forces will have to operate. And a hawker who is more honest, who serves his consumers better quality food, gives better service and also cleaner food with the polystyrenes, there are less chances of contamination. You might like to think of popular hawker centres like the Newton Hawker Centre. All kinds of people go to the Newton Hawker Centre, the old, the young, the fat, the thin, the healthy, the not-so-healthy, the locals as well as the tourists. And we do not know who is healthy and who is not healthy. So there is a possibility that diseases can be transmitted through poor food handling and through poor hygiene. The important thing is that the hawker must be able in these days and times with younger people expecting higher standards and so on and so forth to present that image, the image of a developed country rather than an undeveloped country. And that being the case, I think they should be able to attract more customers and there should be no problems.”
“Actually there is no necessity for the hawkers to increase their prices. Because if you look at the disposable crockery as such, it fits into the present system better than the china ware or the melamine ware. Perhaps I could explain. The present system is this. The food is prepared by the hawker who puts it into a melamine ware or china ware and, serves it to the customer. After the customer has eaten, the hawker or his assistant comes along and takes it away, stacks it somewhere for washing later on. If the Member goes to the Newton Hawker Centre or other more popular hawker centres, he will see stacks of these bowls, cups and plates waiting to be washed. In the case of disposable polystyrene crockery, the same thing happens. He prepares, he puts it into the polystyrene and he serves. But the difference is that it is thrown away and a new polystyrene crockery is used. So it is faster. It saves manpower. It increases productivity. It saves water. You do not have to replace chipped wares and so on. And it will offset the 10 cents. Therefore, there is no justification for the hawkers to increase their prices.”
“First of all, they had been consulted, even with the CCCs, MCs and I believe lately they have also discussed this problem with the MPs. Secondly, they have not been compelled to use such things but they have been persuaded. Finally, as to whether we will extend it to all hawker centres, the answer is yes, once the pilot project is completed.”
“Given sufficient time for adjustments by both stallholders and customers, I am confident that disposable crockery will not only be accepted but will be preferred by the large majority. My Ministry is monitoring the situation closely and where disposable crockery is really not suitable for certain foods or in specific circumstances, we will make exemptions in such cases.”
“Worker utilization will also be more efficient, thus saving on labour costs and improving productivity. Over the longer run, the tangible and intangible benefits derived from the use of disposable crockery will offset any immediate extra costs incurred by the stallholders in introducing disposable crockery. I do not think that the majority of customers are finding the use of disposable crockery inconvenient. However, some may need more time to make the necessary adjustments, as obviously disposable crockery is not meant to be used exactly in the same way as one would use melamine or metal utensils. Stallholders may also need to modify to some extent the preparation and the serving of certain kinds of food, for example, meats may have to be cut into smaller pieces for customers to manage easily, using disposable utensils. Disposable crockery is already being used extensively in many food centres such as Changi Airport Canteen, Picnic Food Court, Forum Galleria Hawker Centre and my Ministry's own cafeteria, with no serious problems. In addition, many stallholders have been selling take-away foods in disposable containers, and most people are eating out of such disposable containers with no undue problems. With disposable crockery, the customer is assured of a fresh plate, a fresh bowl, and a fresh cup at every meal. The introduction of disposable crockery in the five hawker centres is a pilot project. The hawker centres included in this pilot project will all enjoy good patronage with high business turnover and therefore ideally suited to the use of disposable crockery. The project has just begun and, like many other new projects, it has teething problems.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the present practice in hawker centres is for individual stallholders to provide their own crockery. After the customers have finished their meals, the stallholders are expected to collect the used crockery. Very often, however, they do not. Tables are left cluttered with used crockery because the stallholders do not have the time to retrieve their crockery, especially during peak hours. This has therefore often caused delays and annoyance to new customers waiting to be served. Often also, stallholders will gather together all the used utensils that do not belong to them and place them on the floor in order to clear the tables to acommodate new customers. Such practices are not desirable from a public health standpoint. The use of disposable crockery allows for a centralized system of clearing tables. Soiled disposable crockery can be cleared away immediately by a small team of workers. There is no need for retrieval by stallholders and tables can be cleared and cleaned quicker and more efficiently. Overall cleanliness and hygiene will be improved compared to the present conditions where there is often just too much waste left all over the place. The use of disposable crockery is also more hygienic and because stallholders generally do not pay enough attention to washing their crockery thoroughly when business is hectic, as it invariably happens in the popular hawker centres which are frequented by both locals and tourists alike. With disposable crockery, stallholders will save on the use of water and the need to replace chipped and stained crockery. Service to customers will be faster, more efficient, thus enabling stallholders to transact more business.”
“What do you do with them? When these things are seized, there are two ways we can dispose of them. If they are fruits and vegetables, then they are straightaway sent to the charity homes for the residents to eat. But if they are non-perishable items like trinkets, watches, they are taken to and kept in a warehouse - I think there is a store somewhere in Pasir Panjang - and then after conviction, we destroy the goods or they are auctioned. USE OF DISPOSABLE UTENSILS BY HAWKERS (Policy review) 9. Dr Wong Kwei Cheong asked the Minister for the Environment if his Ministry will review the policy of urging hawkers to use disposable utensils in view of (i) persistent complaints by hawkers about the additional cost involved; and (ii) complaints by customers about the inconvenience of using such disposable utensils.”
“Illegal hawkers do not sell too much vegetables, because if they have to run away they can either leave them there or carry it along with them. Let me tell you how they operate. Their modus operandi is very interesting. They operate in such a way that when you get to them they can run away and leave behind very small quantities of goods that they are selling. Their remaining goods are tucked away somewhere in small places where it is very difficult to spot. They may be put away under the staircase of an HDB block, or they may be kept in a van somewhere. But they are certainly not put on sale in huge lots. And secondly, if they want to sell vegetables, it is too difficult because they have to go to the auction market right early in the morning to bid and so on. They do not do that kind of a thing. They sell things like otah-otah, ngoh hiang, and so on, which are easier to sell. So if the Member asks me what is the percentage, how much vegetables are seized out of the total goods --- An hon. Member: What do they do with the vegetables?”
“Can you please ask your question again? Mr Chiam See Tong: What does the Government do with all the goods, especially foodstuffs and vegetables seized from these illegal hawkers?”
“It is a lot. That is the best estimate. Otherwise we would not have 15 enforcement teams in Singapore, each team consisting of four men, going round Singapore looking for illegal hawkers. The other question is regarding vegetables from Malaysia, is it correct?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, there are quite a lot of assumptions made in those questions, for a start. By the very nature of their job, illegal hawkers, try to run away from authority. They disappear when the officer comes. Therefore, it is not possible to count them. So if you ask me how many illegal hawkers are there in Singapore, my answer is that I do not know.”
“I do not have the figures with me, so I cannot let the Member know what the percentage of these illegal hawkers are repeated cases. If he wants, I can produce the figures later.”
“I have some figures here. Most of them are young and able-bodied. We did a survey of 2,767 illegal hawkers in 1986 - 82% were below 51 years of age; 61% below 41 years of age. What was the other question?”
“Let us go back to the days why we built hawker centres. We built hawker centres because in the early days there were umpteen, in fact countless, hawkers around town and the idea of building hawker centres was to resite them in proper places so that they would be able to organize themselves, organize their business, sell under more controlled conditions meaning, if they were food handlers they would be under some kind of supervision from my Ministry to make sure that they did not unnecessarily transmit diseases and so on. But today, it is different. Today the illegal hawker feels that he wants to have a hawker stall of his own choice, wherever it is. Then I think it is best that he goes to those shops situated in shopping complexes, in offices, and so on, and make a bid for it because in such places more market forces are operating there, rather than for Government to build more hawker stalls in popular areas and subsidizing them.”
“Could the Member repeat his question again?”
“Because they are businessmen. And like all businessmen, like the Member for Alexandra, they all want to earn as much as they possibly can. So when you give them stalls which are in unpopular areas, they do not want the stalls. They prefer to station themselves in Orchard Road perhaps, where the human traffic is very very heavy and thereby earn more profit. They do not have to pay rentals, no charges, nothing.”
“For hawking. Mr Speaker, Sir, our Ministry has always been very helpful with illegal hawkers. In other words, when they are apprehended we offer them application forms to apply for hawker stalls. But more often than not, they just refuse to accept the stalls when stalls are allocated to them. Again, off the top of my head, I remember that last year out of over 1,700 illegal hawkers caught, only two eventually accepted the stalls.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, between 1982 and 1986, the number of prosecution cases for illegal hawking and the average fine imposed for each year was: No. of Average fine Year cases imposed ------ -------- --------------- 1982 4,915 $93.02 1983 6,642 $82.23 1984 6,441 $123.50 1985 8,032 $135.39 1986 8,670 $134.26”
“I think we can go around with the Member to count these spitting cases. Maybe he probably does not know that these figures do not include spitting cases, say, in Botanic Garden, in the PSA area and so on where the other agencies enforce their own spitting regulations. ILLEGAL HAWKING (Prosecutions) 8. Dr Aline K. Wong asked the Minister for the Environment (a) how many cases were prosecuted in each of the past five years for illegal hawking; and (b) what was the average fine imposed.”
“No, it does not mean that at all. We do not, as a matter of fact, keep looking for spitters every day. They appear as we do our other work. But when there is a campaign, after publicity and so on and so forth, yes, we get a bit more enthusiastic. We go around looking for them.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, in the case of littering, the Member would probably remember that in the year 1984 there was a blitz against killer litter and littering. If the Member looks at the column under "Littering Cases in HDB Estates", he would straightaway find the answer to the 28,000 cases. Most of the offenders caught were actually in the HDB estates. For spitting, in the year 1984, there was actually an educational programme, publicity and so on against spitting. Later there was a blitz against spitters, and that is why the figure went up.”
“This is, of course, off the top of my head. For littering, I would say it is about $140-$150; for spitting it is about $70; and for illegal dumping it is about $200.”
“The Member for Bukit Batok has a very specific problem. I appreciate again his concern for his hawkers and for the success of dry markets. I wish to assure him that I will discuss this problem with the officers and we will give maximum help to his hawkers at the dry market to make sure that dry markets are a success in Singapore.”
“First, of course, is the distribution of educational pamphlets containing the various basic information on how to handle food and also on hygiene practice. Second, public health inspectors do carry out regular checks to ensure that hawkers and food handlers practise good food hygiene. To ensure that they can see that the food is bacteria-free, as the Member for Boon Teck has said, they do take food samples back to the laboratory, culture them, and check for any microbiological contamination. The Member for Pasir Panjang can rest assured that food at these hawker centres and indeed at all other hawker centres in Singapore are of reasonable public health standards. The Member for Boon Teck also raised the problem of public health and catering services. I appreciate his concern for public health and how food can be contaminated if one is not careful with the handling of food before it is served. Restaurants and other food establish- ments that provide catering services are required to have a licence. Caterers are required to transport the food in proper and clean containers and conform to a high standard of food hygiene. This also concerns food handlers smoking while preparing food. Just to give an indication. In 1985, 315 summonses were issued to food handlers for various offences, including smoking while preparing food. This offence has more than twice the number of summonses issued in 1984. The increase is simply due to increased surveillance. On the microbiological standard of food, they are monitored over the years. For the more sensitive food, we monitor more often and, again, to give an indication, in 1983, the percentage of unfit food, microbiologically speaking, was 18.7%, 1984, 16.1%; and 1985, 12%. So that has also come down.”
“ND, is it? So he might try the Minister for National Development. He is also a very patient man. I appreciate the Member for Chua Chu Kang's far-sightedness and concern for his hawkers. But let me assure him that the condition in his hawker centre, maybe in one or two years' time, will not be that bad. I will just have a look at the details given to me here. The vacancy rate of the hawker centre at Lim Chu Kang is about 12%. Considering that the worst hawker centre has a vacancy rate of more than 32% I would say that business in the Lim Chu Kang hawker centre is quite all right. The other point is that he wanted to know about the conversion of market produce stalls into cooked food stalls. I just want to let him know that, up to-date, 688 market produce stalls have been converted to 243 cooked food stalls at a cost of about $486,000. My Ministry is still looking into the various possibilities of converting the more suitable market produce stalls that are vacant. But it is not an easy task. It takes about three market produce stalls to convert into cooked food stall because you need to provide the refreshment area. Moreover, having found the suitable stalls for conversion, you have also got to consider the public health regulations, whether or not there is cross-contamination of food and so on. Of course, there is also the popularity of the place to think about. So it takes time to convert market produce stalls into cooked food stalls. It is not an easy matter. The Member for Pasir Panjang wanted to know how we safeguard public health and whether we do spot checks on hawkers at hawker centres. Sir, we ensure public health through three basic ways.”
“If the Member for Cairnhill can identify open spaces, lands, or whatever where public health regulations can be conformed with and where it can be properly managed and he wants to run bazaars, then I think our Ministry will be prepared to look into his interest. The Member for Cairnhill referred to the CBD gantry points affecting the hawkers at Cuppage Road Market. All I can say to him is, "I thought he dialled the wrong number." But apparently he did not dial the wrong number. He wanted us to dial the number for him. I really do not know the real problem that caused this poor business at Cuppage Road Market. I suggest that since he knows the area well, being the Member of Parliament in charge of that area, perhaps he can try again the Minister for Communications and Information. He is a very patient man. An hon Member: ND.”
“In fact, I heard a very unofficial comment the other day from my officer and, of course, somebody from Europe was telling him that he admires the Government's ability to be able to resite all our street hawkers and if they could they would also resite their street hawkers. I really do not know whether or not these modernized street hawkers in Europe are really modern street hawkers or are they hawkers that the authorities find difficulty in housing them in proper hawker centres. The Member for Cairnhill and the Member for Kaki Bukit brought up this idea of the pasar malams. I know it is the Member for Cairnhill's pet subject. Therefore, I will spend some time discussing this with him. First, my knowledge of the Malay language is not very good. But "pasar malam" to me means night market. I believe that night markets actually had its origins in the early 1960's when the British Army was around in Singapore. They started operations in British bases and then in the housing estates where the soldiers lived. Later on they proliferated. They filled up our streets, they filled up public places and so on. They caused quite a lot of public nuisance, noise, littering, you think of it, you get it. There was lot of pollution and eventually there were much public complaints. Unfortunately the Ministry had to act and phased out night markets in 1978. But then the pasar malam or open-air market that the Member for Cairnhill talked about, we have what I called the ampute open-air markets, the more modernized and modified open-air markets. I am sure he is aware that there is such a thing as the handicraft centre which the Singapore Tourist Promotion Board started.”
“Sir, the Member for Kaki Bukit raised the idea of a modernized street hawking. Sir, as far as I know, our programme for resiting street hawkers has been completed and this has been completed at considerable expense. I think it took us something like 15 years to resite more than 18,000 hawkers into 103 hawker centres and costing us something like more than $100 million. But I do appreciate what the Member for Kaki Bukit said earlier on in his speech that he is not advocating the come-back of street hawkers. But the problem is, of course, identifying these people. Already there are hundreds of illegal hawkers operating every day in various HDB estates and our streets. Until we can control all these activities, I think we should be very careful in allowing another form of street hawking. We require, in other words, a period of time to settle down. Let us allow some orderliness to take root, then we will look into this idea. But maybe part of his idea is already manifested in the more modern kiosks that we see along Orchard Mall selling articles like magazines, newspapers, cigarettes, and so on. Our town planners, I am sure, will look into modernizing our streets and the malls and together with these things, the modernized street hawkers, as we call them in Singapore, will probably take shape also in Singapore. Just a comment before I leave this topic on modernized street hawkers. I believe that the Ministry of the Environment has done more than modernized our hawkers. In fact, they have upgraded them to mini-restaurants. It is just that they look different from those hawkers along the streets in Europe.”
“Yes. In fact, we have already been carrying out conversion exercises. But there are some stalls you can convert and others you cannot.”
“I would think that these people can probably get better help from their friends or those who are already operating stalls to let them know the cost of starting a hawking business.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid that no priority will be given to retrenched persons applying for a hawker licence because not all retrenched persons are in financial hardship. To qualify for a hawker licence, a means test, based on the applicant's financial position, age and the number of dependants he has to support, is imposed. As long as the applicant satisfies the hardship criteria, he can choose from available vacancies in the hawker centres. Over January and February this year, 14 of the 68 approved cases, or 21%, were retrenched persons. However, I must inform the Member for Telok Blangah that since the Government is not building any more hawker centres, vacancies in HDB and MOE hawker centres are very limited indeed.”
“Traffic congestion, for instance. Basically, if you are talking about a goods delivery van, we do not control those operators. But if the operator of the van carries goods and stops here and there to sell his goods, then we have to control them. APPLICATION FOR HAWKER LICENCES (Priority for old retrenched workers) 2. Dr Koh Lam Son asked the Minister for the Environment whether he will give priority to applicants for hawker licences who have been retrenched and are unable to find new jobs because of old age.”
“If pollution and environmental health hazards are the only problems we are worried about, so be it. But there are problems more than just pollution.”
“That is a very general proposition. But I do not really know what the Member means when he says "environmental problems can be controlled." I say that, in general, we discourage street hawking in any form, whether it be in a van, on a bicycle or on two legs.”
“I think there are some delivery vans that bring provisions to homes. Is that what you mean?”
“I cannot think of any special case where we can give licences to itinerant hawkers.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, first question on the vacancy rate. I do not have the exact figures but the vacancy rate can range from, say, 4% in a rather healthy market - when I say "healthy", I mean the amount of business - to about 30% in a rather sluggish one. On the other question, yes, we have stopped issuing licences for itinerant hawkers. By "itinerant", do you mean moving from place to place?”
“I think that would come under the province of the Ministry of National Development because they are the ones who do the town planning. Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, would the Hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary support, in principle, what I am advocating here, so that we can push the idea with the Ministry for National Development?”
“I presume it is also in the interest of the Member for Whampoa to have these hawkers relocated in his own constituency rather than, for example, move out of their homes. But there is a provision whereby if a hawker moves home and his hawker stall is too far away for him to commute, then he can always ask if we could help, and we do help.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not know what principle we are talking here. But the important thing is yes, I agree that generally there should be a car park somewhere near a hawker centre. There should be easy access to the hawker centre. But without the details of his question, it is very difficult for me to agree with a general statement of that sort.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I will ask my officers to look into this idea or opinion, and we will deal with it accordingly.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, am I to presume that all hawker centres have the same date of relocation? I do not think so. I presume the Member is referring to his own hawker centre.”
“Maybe when the Member for Kebun Baru frames his question, we can consider this question together. But off hand, if I can say so, I think the Member for Clementi is correct in saying that there are more people who reject market produce stalls than for cooked food stalls.”
“On clientele. I have been told, Mr Speaker, Sir, that there are hawker centres in Tuas, Punggol Point, even in one of the islands, Pulau Ubin, if I am not mistaken, where Singaporeans flock to for their food. That brings up the point of the Member for Delta where culinary skills do indeed play a part in attracting clientele to the hawker centres, and not totally dependant on location.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, again I do not have the exact figures with me so I cannot tell him how many of the 922 cases were rejected because of location. But I think the Member has a point there. We all have the impression that the success of a hawker depends on either the location of the hawker centre or location from his own house. I presume the Member for Whampoa is talking about the location of the hawker centre in respect of clientele. Am I correct? Or location from home?”
“I think that is a very good idea. Culinary skills are, in fact, a more important criterion than hardship because, more often than not, you find that among those hardship cases who are given licences, most do not make it a success but some do. Sometimes giving them a licence is to do them more harm than good. So if a person has the culinary skill, I think it is worthwhile considering. In fact, now that we have completed our programme of resiting street hawkers into proper hawker centres, it may be about time to reconsider the criteria for issue of hawker licences. That will take some time though.”