Heng Chiang Meng
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, whilst I agree with the approach taken by the Government, especially when I personally think that the economy may well recover in the second half of next year, I would like to ask the Minister whether he could take steps to rectify the situation on the ground, of which I am very deeply concerned.”
“Witness the prices of PCs when they first appeared and the prices of PCs now. Also, without an extensive infrastructure, motoring with a hybrid car will cause more inconvenience for the owner.”
“Sir, I did address you as Chairman. I only once, earlier on, addressed you as Deputy Speaker. Most of the comments I am going to say have been covered by the two earlier speakers. I just want to add that I understand that Newater is biologically very clean.”
“I dare say that Singapore is kept litter-free by the street cleaners, and not because there are no litter bugs. So the real long-term solution is to inculcate good environmental behaviour as part of our habits.”
“For example, one way could be to rank the distance of each household from the school, and the ranking to be used to allocate the available places based on the household nearest to the school having the pole position.”
“Sir, I find it difficult to understand why the Senior Minister of State should bring in other people's arguments, like people being sick, one parent looking after so many children. We are talking about distances away from the school. Let us not bring in other factors. But, in any case, her mind is already made up.”
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“Sir, Singapore has total defence for the whole of society. I see no reason why we should not look at total defence for the individual. Such total defence would be (1) defence of personal security as embodied in the objectives of the Ministries of Defence and Home Affairs; (2) defence of the body as in the Ministry of Health; and (3) defence of the mind as in the Ministry of Education. Sir, these are very fundamental responsibilities of any government and must be provided for through the various taxes collected by the Government. In this respect, I would like to compare the provision of health care by the Government to the provision of national security by the Government. The sole purpose of this comparison is to demonstrate that the need to maintain bodily defences is no less important than the need to maintain national border defences. Yet, as I look at the direction in which the Health Ministry is heading, I am not too sure that the Government places health care on the same scale. From 1982 to 1985, the increase in the Health Ministry's total expenditure was 46%. As a comparison, the Ministry of Defence had a similar increase, about 47%. But from 1985 to 1989, the increase in Health expenditure was only 6%. This compares poorly with the Defence Ministry's increase of 24% for the same period. Sir, if you look at these respective expenditures as a percentage of total Government expenditure, an even clearer picture emerges. Defence expenditure increased from 10.6% of total expenditure in 1982 to 11% in 1985 to 17% in 1989. During this same period, the Health Ministry's expenditure remained at about 2%-3% of total expenditure. Sir, please do not get me wrong. I am not saying that defence of the nation is not important.”
“The Member has suggested some ideas, an Educational Service Commission, for example, or parcelling out responsibilities for the lower grades of officers, Divisions III and IV, to the Ministries, or in the case of medical staff, when the hospitals go independent, they take the responsibility and make things easier; and when schools go independent, they also take the responsibility and make things easier, like SJI. Many Members will have noticed that SJI, having gone independent, has promptly paid performance bonuses to its teachers. We should emulate this. But it is much easier to do it when you have 50 teachers than when you have 22,000. So we have got to find ways. The difficulty is not just creating more bodies to manage teachers, but also finding the right individuals to apply their minds, judgment and impartiality to the problem and to promote and advance and recruit the right people. The Public Service Commission has an establishment of 12 members. It is not filled. We have three slots for which we have been unable to find good individuals. Now, if we are going to create new commissions, we will have to find suitable individuals. Maybe less momentous decisions are made because it is a smaller job. The requirements will not be so strict, but I do not think it will be very easy to find people to take the posts. But in principle we will try to decentralize.”
“Pensions are not a serious problem, particularly people have CPF. Let us leave it like that. 1ª months. Mr Lawrence Sia asked: what happens if growth goes to 9%, 10%? I notice he did not ask what happens if it goes to 3% or 4%. Of course, the same principle has to apply. I would be hesitant to give any definite commitment or hostages to fortune. But in principle if the economy exceeds 8% growth, which I do not presently expect, then we will look and see whether further small one-time adjustments might be in order. Last year, if you will remember, we paid a month one-time adjustment, making the total 2(r) months. This year if there are no surprises, the total is only 2ª months because last year was one-time. We will see how it goes. We should not count our chickens too early. Mr Das asked whether promotions are not an important factor. They are. As I said, it is better to promote a person than to give him an increment, because promotion means I have applied my mind and judged him and decided that he is up to the job, and he deserves it, and probably also I have applied my mind and judged the other one and he does not deserve it. So a discrimination is made. We have to move the promotions much faster. As I reported to the House, the Public Service Commission has had sight of this statement, has also had its inputs into the Committee Report on which this statement is based, and they support the proposals and the concept on which the adjustments are based. Decentralizing Public Service Commission and Public Service Division duties. In principle this is a good idea, because to run a 70,000-man personnel department is no mean feat. How to do it, I am reluctant to say now.”
“The Superscale officers carry the same grade points as the Professional and Administrative Services. I think it will be very troublesome to say,"You are one Superscale type, and he is another Superscale type." So we put it all at 7% across the board. But I do not think these 20 people should drag 67,000 others along. The salary adjustment for these 67,000 people is $116 million. It is the biggest part of the cost. To go from 4% to 7% would increase that cost by at least a third. So it is a $40 million decision. I do not think we should do it hastily. We make the 4% adjustment. Let us now review the key services which have specific problems. I mentioned a list; it is quite a long list. We make adjustments to fit their market conditions. Besides those which I mentioned, PSC tells me that the uniformed services, the paramedicals, and the teaching staff, are also expecting to have reruitment problems. We will look at them in good time, before too long. 4% the base wage increase. The question was, whether it is on the basic amount or on the gross amount. The question really is whether the 1982-84 NWC should apply to the new increases being granted this year. Strictly speaking, they do not have to apply, because at the time when we made the adjustments from 1982 to 1984, these sums did not exist. But the Government is generous, so the 1982-1984 NWC will apply. The advantage of not consolidating 1982-84 NWC are of course, first, it is more flexible. Secondly, by consolidating, it will be bundled into the pensions, and people know that it is better to have salary on the line as you are working rather than a more generous pension down the line long time from now. So if we have a fixed budget to work, why not settle for larger non-pensionable amounts.”
“In the end, whether we are paying above the market or below the market, depends on whether people are queueing up to get in or queueing up to get out. That is the test. Here I can tell you that they are queueing to get out. Many have left. Those who have left have done well and we know it not only superior officers but officers, of equivalent calibre to those who have stayed. They are getting typically 30% more, some 100% more. The young officers, even more so. One young man who was working for me in MTI, a bright scholar, quit to join a stockbroking firm. They deployed him in London. He knew nothing about stocks. He had never, so far as I know, bought any stocks and shares on behalf of MTI in his life. But he is bright, he will learn fast. They took him, they doubled his pay. He came back to visit us. We are very friendly, because we parted amicably. He told the Permanent Secretary, "Why don't you join us. We will give you a six-figure monthly salary." An hon. Member: And you didn't lose him? BG Lee Hsien Loong: I didn't lose the Permanent Secretary. But I can tell you that he would have been worth it. So what are we talking about? Look at the numbers. We make this adjustment. It is a step in the right direction and, as I said, in a few years we will have to do it again. We have to narrow the gap. We are not so badly off because we have made several big steps in the past, but I think we have left it a bit long, since 1982. This is timely. Another step will be necessary. If I may move on to the other questions. Mr Lawrence Sia asked why 7% for Superscales and 4% for the rest of the Civil Service. I told you that there were 67,000 people in the rest of the Civil Service. There are only 20 are superscale officers.”
“It is not just getting the list, but people must know that the procedure has been fair and that the assessments are objective, as near as we can get. Of course, we have not tied that to performance bonuses in the SAF yet; we probably will now. But we have tied performances to promotions. We watch a person. If he is a B grader for three years in a row, that means well above average, and very promotable. If he is a C grader for some years, we look at it more carefully. If he is mostly D grader and in one year he got an E, we start thinking of giving him special marching orders. The system is workable. Annex C, this question of profit-related bonuses. The people here are those who have declared themselves as employees. That means he may not be a wage-earner but he is an employed person. He is not the owner of the bank directly. I do not know whether it includes sharing profits. I would imagine it does, for some. But on the other hand, it is in the nature of the job that if you employ a person, then he shares profits. It is part of the scheme of service. For GMs and MDs of multi-nationals, part of their salaries is paid in terms of stock options, It is income; when the stock options are cashed in; the money is taxed. No doubt when an Administrative Officer goes out and takes these careers, he too will be able to enjoy share options. It is risky, as Mr Heng says. The question is, therefore, should Administrative Officers get paid the same? My answer is there is no need to be exactly the same, but we are so far out. And really, if you are right, and it is so risky, why are the young men so keen to go there and leave the Administrative Service, voting with their feet? That is a decisive factor.”
“Potential, no, because if you tell a person his helicopter has reached maximum altitude, there is not much he can do about it. The whole idea of the CEP is that it is something innate. You may discover it more accurately, but you are unlikely to enhance it very much. Therefore, we do not tell him directly. But they more or less know from the rate at which they are being promoted. The trouble is if everybody is promoted too slowly, then everybody decides that they have been mis-assessed and they leave. Therefore, faster promotions are the way to make sure they know. Performance bonuses, as I said, I had some careful language there just now. I said: 'The Head of the Civil Service in consultation with the Permanent Secretaries will put up proposals to the PSC for endorsement.' "Endorsement", which means that the Permanent Secretaries make up the list, the PSC will moderate it. But if you had listened to me carefully, we are setting quotas for each category, which means minimum as well as maximum quotas, which means there must be a certain minimum number of people who are deemed above average and another minimum number of people who are deemed outstanding. If you look at the whole lot and conclude that everybody is mediocre, that means we have recruited wrong individuals into the Administrative Service. So I think there is a safeguard. You may want to change one or to people at the margin, but I do not see any fundamental difficulty. I have some confidence in this because we have operated such an assessment system in the SAF for the senior officers for some years. It is a lot of work for the ranking boards, but the discipline, if it is adhered to, enables us to come up with a list which commands general assent. This is very important.”
“Therefore, the PSC has been very stringent, and I support them in this. There have been occasions when we have been less stringent at the recruiment point, regretted it later. As Mr Heng pointed out, once the man is in, he is in. And it is not good for us, nor is it good for him. Non-scholars and others leave the service early. Even scholars do not always wait for their bonds to run out. They often leave before that, because many of the companies which take them pay their bonds off. It is a small expense. If you are prepared to double his salary, what is a few tens of thousands of dollars on his bond? If he works for you for two years and does a good job, he has made good. The solution is not to make the bond more expensive, but to make sure that the people who are in are happy to stay and are not merely tied down because they have a bond and cannot leave. Which is why non-scholar recruitment is important. It is an indicator. If people who are not bonded are prepared to come in, that means we are paying about the market wage. If the only people who are in the system are those who are on scholarships and have been bonded, you may have enough staff but you can be sure that there will be rumblings and they want to get out. I mentioned just now that we will promote good officers to PAS before the eighth year. But actually the AA and the AS promotions are also brought forward and should have an effect. Some speeding up has already taken place last year and this year, but this pushes it a little bit further. Do they know their potentials? The Civil Service does not generally tell a person his potential. Peformance, yes, because it is something you can affect.”
“Just to give a comparison, every year there are about 600-700 students who collect 3A's and 4A's at 'A' levels. It was not so when you and I were in school. But I think teaching standards have improved. More students are in 'A' level. There are that number of people with 3A's or 4A's. From amongst these, we must find 30 odd and say, "All right, you are potentials. Are you interested?" Having decided that they are interested, then they go to various places. The Administrative Service is only one of them. Administrative Service (Foreign Service Branch) is another one because we have great difficulty finding Foreign Service officers who are prepared to serve overseas, with family overseas. The SAF take in almost as many as the Administrative Service. The statutory boards need good officers. So these 30 have to go to many places, which means really that, firstly, we are too small a country and, secondly, we need to catch nearly all of them to fulfil all our needs. I do not think it is a good idea to relax on the Administrative Service entry requirements, because the jobs are very demanding. There are many jobs in the Civil Service where you can do well without the breadth of scope which an Administrative Officer requires. He can be a professional. He can be a top surgeon or an outstanding teacher or even a brilliant military officer. But can you fit into the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Education, and the Ministry of Trade and Industry at different points in your career, and make a contribution in each Ministry? If you can, then potentially you are an Administrative Officer. If you cannot, you may still be a very able person, but we will channel you in line with your abilities. We need to find generalists for the Administrative Service.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the chance to speak on this. Sir, I also agree that it is high time that the civil servants are given some form of salary adjustment. The basis for this adjustment seems to be the market place for salaries. We all know that in the market place, there are a number of risk factors, eg, the risk of dismissal, poor business conditions and salary depending on demand and supply. And there are other forms of risk factors not associated with being a civil servant. In the light of this, I would like to ask the Minister whether he also intends to introduce such risk factors for civil servants? For example, if a civil servant is found wanting or he has reached his level of incompetence, will he be dismissed? Or if in the light of supply exceeding demand for a particular service, will their salaries be reduced? My second question is related. If the reduction of salary is not at all possible, then may I request that the Minister look at other alternative methods of making up the salary for the civil servants? For example, one can keep the basic salaries at lower levels while increasing the quantum of special allowances; such as consultant's allowance, market adjustment allowance; which can thereafter be reduced or increased in line with the marketplace. BG Lee Hsien Loong: Mr Speaker, with your indulgence, I will take these questions first and we can take further questions after that. Mr Bernard Chen's point is- are recruitment standards into the Administrative Service too stringent? I do not know if they are too stringent, but I know they are very stringent, because we are looking for the best officers. I said that to get in, you must be somewhere in the top 30 of your year.”
“Sir, I just want to say that I also support the new policy. I think it is a good policy, but I have a question for the Minister. I would like to ask whether there is some form of flexibility for special cases. For example, how do you classify a family of a mixed race marriage. For example, the husband may be a Chinese, the wife may be an Indian. Do you classify the family as Indian or Chinese? Let us assume that you follow the husband's race and classify them as Chinese. If the mother-in-law, for example, happens to leave the house upon death to the family and they happen to be in a neighbourhood which is already above the limit for Chinese, then would the HDB say, "No. You must sell it to a non-Chinese family. If not, sell it back to HDB."”
“Thank you, Sir, for the opportunity to speak on this. The points I wish to bring up actually have been brought up by earlier Members but I feel that this is one issue that goes so much against the common sense of decency that one really has to speak up against it. Sir, I sympathize and I agree that the Immigration Department and the Singapore Government have a problem of illegal workers here, whether illegal immigrants or overstayers. But, Sir, is the barbaric act of mandatory caning the right punishment for workers, albeit illegal? How many of us here can really say that none of our forebears came to Singapore because of the need to find employment, because circumstances in the countries from where they were from, forced them to seek their fortune here. And, if during that time had the colonial government then imposed a similar punishment, how many of us would be here then? Sir, I am aware of the problem having been in the Home Affairs GPC during the last term, but I believe whatever the difficulties the Immigration Department may face, mandatory caning of illegal immigrants and overstayers is not the solution. Sometimes certain problems do not have a final solution and I think we must just simply cope up with whatever best we can do.”
“Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed to a Committee of the whole House. The House immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill. - [Dr Richard Hu Tsu Tau]. Bill considered in Committee; reported without amendment; read a Third time and passed. PROBATION OF OFFENDERS (AMENDMENT) BILL Order for Second Reading read.”
“Sir, I am sorry to take up more time but I think I need another clarification on the Minister's answer to my earlier clarification and, that is, would he consider informing the Commissioner for Inland Revenue that in looking at the tax angle or the tax payable by unit trusts, that the length of time of the securities held by the unit trust managers is very often not dependent on the mangers themselves since unit trusts have a system of redemption on a daily basis so that if more unit trust holders redeem at the same time, then they may have no choice but to liquidate their investment to meet the demand for redemption. Sir, in this respect, I would also like to add that I am an interested party in the answer. Dr Richard Hu Tsu Tau: Sir, this problem is recognized and I believe discussions with the Income Tax authorities and the Ministry of Finance are on this very issue. The problem faced by unit trusts is that they are open-ended trusts in which holders can liquidate as and when they choose whereas the tax liability of the trustee could be deferred sometime further down the road. So the trustees face the dilemma that they may be forced to redeem share units which could be substantial, against future tax liability of which they are not certain. This problem is recognized and I think the proposal has been made to the unit trust managers that when such a situation arises there should be some system whereby large redemptions should be granted, on a case by case basis, specific tax exemption. I believe that the matter is not resolved but that is the approach being used. The problem is recognized but we cannot give blanket exemptions. But where redemptions are substantial, specific exemptions could be considered. Question put, and agreed to.”
“May I seek a point of clarification from the Minister regarding the answer he gave on unit trust. Could the Minister please state clearly whether those unit trusts that are up to now paying tax in the same manner, like he said interests and dividends, but not paying tax on the gains arising from the sales and purchases of securities, will continue to be taxed in the same manner as before even after the passing of this Bill, if they opt to choose their old method?”
“There is one factor which ought to be considered, but it ought to compensate for the higher cost as a result of these policies. It is this: if we did not follow through with these policies, the economy might continue to be very tight, and wages may be pushed up even more, because there are wage settlements, and our trade union colleagues will tell us that they push for the best settlement they can get. And without the CPF increase, without the gradual slowing down of the economy, they will push harder and rightly receive more than with the CPF increase. So we hope that by implementing these policies we are really moderating the overall cost increase. Thirdly, whether the operating surpluses are defined the same, the Member is probably right they are not. But the trend should tell us something. From the fact that we are where we were in 1980 in terms of profitability, whereas both the Taiwanese and the Koreans are worse off than they were in 1980, I think that qualitative conclusion can be drawn that we are still competitive.”
“Sir, I have three supplementary questions for the Minister. The first one is, together with these measures and the strong current external value of the Singapore Dollar, would these affect our export competitivenss? The second question is, since the Minister uses the chart as a means of measurement of relativity to compare with the other NICs, may I ask him on Chart I where he has put other factors remaining constant, whether the multiplier effect of all these changes, of all these increases in cost in the local context, have been taken into consideration in terms of, for example, inflation. The third point, on Chart II: is he aware that the methods of operation of many Taiwanese and Korean companies are such that their operating surpluses or their profits either in Taiwan or in Korea may be very much understated. This is because their currencies are non-convertible and they export at much lower prices and keep their profits abroad in countries like the United States? BG Lee Hsien Loong: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, on the Singapore Dollar. The effect of a strong Singapore Dollar is, in fact, factored into Chart I. It is one of the considerations. I would say that the description of it as a strong dollar may be an over-simplification because although we have appreciated as against the US Dollar, we have depreciated as against the Yen and also as against the Taiwanese and the Korean currencies and this is relevant when we compare competitiveness. Secondly, on the charts. The first chart indeed has other factors remaining constant. We have not considered inflation, but inflation should not affect the nominal unit labour cost compared to other countries.”
“Sir, when the Minister mentioned about the grandmother, does he mean that he thinks grandmothers should not be allowed to enjoy themselves? Mr Lee Yock Suan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not know whether the Member was joking. I presume he was. Of course, I did not mean it that way. It is perfectly all right for everybody to relax and have a good time. But I am saying that there are, in fact, a lot of older women who are at home and looking after children, whether their own, their grandchildren or other people's children. This is, in fact, a good source of income for these people. So if you allow other sources, more foreign maids for example, they will be depriving these people of their income. SWIMMING POOL IN SERANGOON NEW TOWN (Building of) 6. Mr Goh Choon Kang asked the Minister for Community Development whether and when a public swimming pool will be built in Serangoon New Town.”
“Sir, may I give a point of clarification first when I said the Minister is impervious?”
“Sir, since the Minister is quite impervious to other forms of proposals, except the financial one, I would like to suggest this proposal. Will he consider a form of progressive rate on the levy? That means those who earn less probably pay slightly less than those who earn more. In fact, another form would be a modification of this. Those who employ a second maid probably would have to pay a higher levy. And those who employ a third maid would pay a still higher levy.”
“I would like to urge the Government to seriously address these concerns. In fact, I believe they are the main contributory factors to the charge that Singapore is a controlled society, that the atmosphere in Singapore is stifling and oppressive. People do understand reasons. They just do not want to be told what to do just because the rules tell them to do. Explain to them the rationale for an action. They will understand. Sir, for a start, I would like to recommend that every Government department establish a 3R Committee (Rules and Regulations Review Committee) whose sole purpose is to ensure that every rule and every regulation justifies its relevance and, hence, justifies its existence. It is a start towards the establishment of more humane regulations which will be relevant to today's conditions. It is a spring cleaning of our irrelevant regulations. It is another step along the way to a more gracious society and in the President's own words "a better life for all Singaporeans".”
“Obviously the carrying capacity has dropped from 75%, even with leakages, to only 50%. Furthermore, with cement, it is now heavier and instead of originally only one civil servant needed to operate the system, now it requires two or more. But the civil servants are now happy since the rules and regulations have plugged all the loopholes. So there is no way the policy can be abused. Never mind the drop in the carrying capacity. Never mind the heavier bucket, the extra rules and regulations. Never mind even the additional manpower needed. The important thing is that no abuse is possible. What about the 50% efficiency? No worry. Who knows that it could be at 75% because it is an either/or type of situation? The second concern - that of applying the rules and regulations to the general public - in fact is related to the "cement bucket" syndrome. It is called the "cast-in-stone" syndrome. When applying the rules and regulations, ie, the "cement bucket", there will be situations not envisaged by the rule makers, simply because no set of man-made regulations can foresee the million and one situations that may arise in the future. However, since the regulations must be applied as established, no flexibility is permitted. We must either follow the regulations or else, "I am sorry. You just cannot have it." no matter what the peculiar or particular circumstances are. This is the "cast-in-stone" syndrome. The rules are cast in stone. There should be no, and there shall be no abuse of the system. Sir, we all know that R & R are necessities - I mean rules and regulations. But the way they are applied can either make Singapore a gracious society or a living hell for us who are confronted with Government bureaucracy in almost every facet of our lives.”
“However, if we examine closely, we will see that it is not that simple. A system based on needs must obviously give rise to the question of what need comes first. For example, should a couple intending to get married come before a family wanting to upgrade from a smaller unit to a bigger one, and how can we differentiate between two or more different types of needs? Furthermore, a system based on qualitative factors would normally also provide fertile ground for corruption. In fact, I believe that it is precisely to eliminate this problem of corruption that the HDB first imposed the "first-come first-served" policy. Sir, I have taken a bit of time to show that it is not the rules per se that are of concern. But it is the attitude, the philosophy of the rule makers, it is the manner that these rules and regulations are applied to the people, these are the real concerns. These concerns are due to what I call the "cement bucket" syndrome and the "cast-in-stone" syndrome in the civil service. Let me explain what these syndromes are. Let us say that the Government has a new policy and the objective of this policy is to transport water from one place to another. However, only a bucket is available. Let us also assume there are some holes in the bucket. But even with these holes it is still possible to transport about 75% of the water, losing about 25% along the way due to leakage. However, like all good civil servants, this leakage is not acceptable to the rule makers. There should be no leakages. There should be no abuses. So the holes, the loopholes, must be plugged, whatever happens. Unfortunately, there is only cement. Never mind, use the cement. Before long, you find that every hole is plugged and now the bucket is half-filled with cement.”
“Sir, I do hope that you do not consider long speeches a sporting event. I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to thank the President for his address. The first sentence of the President's Address says it all - "My Government's goal is to create a better life for all Singaporeans." Who can disagree? But then goals are mere statements and they can only become flesh if the appropriate policies, and the rules and the regulations are put in place for their implementation. And that, Sir, is my area of concern - the rules and regulations of the Government Ministries and the various departments. Sir, firstly I believe that Singapore has perhaps more rules and regulations affecting our daily lives when compared to most other countries. This is not surprising as living closely together in a high density city nation such as Singapore, especially when more than 80% of our population are HDB residents, obviously requires more laws, more rules and more regulations to ensure some form of harmonious relationship amongst our residents. Otherwise, there may be disorder, chaos and anarchy. In fact, Sir, in themselves, rules and regulations may not be necessarily bad. For example, let us examine the regulation relating to the HDB policy of allocating flats on a "first-come first-served" basis. Is it a bad policy because it does not consider the housing needs of individual applicants? The rules are very clear; an earlier applicant will have his flat before a later applicant even though it can be shown that the later applicant has a more pressing need for a house than the earlier one. Sir, does this mean that the Government is not caring? Perhaps so, if you consider that the current policy gives very little weightage to the personal housing needs of applicants.”
“Sir, I have a point of clarification. The Member for Potong Pasir has attributed the words "I thoroughly reject" to me. May I clarify that I did not say that? I said "I call upon this House to thoroughly reject". There is a reason why I say that and I am glad he brought it up because up to that point I was not really too sure whether he will reject the particular amendment or he will support the amendment. So when I used the words I was in fact directing them at him and hoped that he would join us in rejecting the amendment.”
“Again another example of an open society. We look at the number of foreign publications that are allowed to circulate in Singapore. Even for those which are under special restriction, we still allow them to circulate except, of course, without the advertisements. Again another example of an open society. We look at our education system. Already this morning, the Minister for Finance wants to improve our scholarships so that we can send our scholars to more and better foreign universities. Our own university also have places reserved for foreign students to come here. Again another example of an open society. And I would really like to know how any government, let alone the Singapore Government, can produce a thought-controlled society in such an environment and, if that is not possible, then the rest of the amendment which is detrimental to Singapore's prosperity is really academic. Dr Lee Siew-Choh: May I have a clarification, Sir?”
“Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask the House to thoroughly reject this amendment. Sir, let us look at the amendment. It says: "but regrets that the programme outlined in the Address will tend to produce a thought controlled society which will be detrimental to Singapore's prosperity.' Sir, here the key words are "thought controlled society". I think Dr Lee Siew-Choh gives this Government more than its fair share of credit because surely it will be almost impossible to produce a thought controlled society in an open society such as ours. Even China with its vast experience in thought control processes and brain washing techniques found out to its cost that when it opened up its boundaries to the rest of the world, they could not control how its people would begin to think. Look at what we have done. First, we have never restricted our people to travel to any part of the world. In fact, if you look at the Addendum by the Ministry of Communications and Information, there is provision to improve the status and the services of Changi Airport so that more airlines will fly to Singapore and in return we get more flights to other countries in the world. Surely this will definitely improve and, in fact, enhance the opportunities of our people to travel. This is an example, Sir, of an open society.”
“Sir, in connection with this question, I would like to disclose, firstly, a personal interest in the sense that I am a user of the scheme and, secondly, a professional interest in the sense that I am involved in the extension of loans to users of the scheme.”
“Sir, truly I fail to understand the logic of the reply given by the Minister of State because if somebody higher up on the priority list is prepared to give early notice of opting out, surely this means that people lower down the list have a better chance of getting the flat that they want. This means that the queue will move faster which is in accordance with his objective. I do not see any reason why the Minister cannot allow people to opt out of the selection if they give prior notice.”
“Sir, would the Minister not agree that the whole purpose of this scheme is to ensure that the applicant gets the flat he desires? Therefore, if he is given a second offer and the list of flats is not in the location or not in the place that he wants, should he not be given a choice to opt out of the offer? After all, he will give people lower down the list a chance to get the flats that they desire.”
“Sir, may I ask the Minister of State whether an applicant, when receiving a second offer as stated in the letter, can refuse the offer by writing in saying, "I do not want to accept this offer" and therefore will be considered as having only rejected the first offer?”
“The Town Council is the best means through which the residents can render their services, participating in the management of the affairs of their own constituency.”
“As in the case of governing a country, while we look after the general and long term interest of the majority we should not neglect the special needs of the minority. We have to balance the various interests and demands fairly, wisely and objectively, in keeping with accepted principles. Therefore, the deliberations of the Town Council will bring about a better understanding of the principles and practice of government. With the setting up of Town Councils, there will be a sense of pride and identity when Town Councillors and residents see the fruition of their own decisions. I have two questions for the Minister to clarify. The first question is on the definition of residents. There are residents of private houses or estates in Town Council constituencies. I would like the Minister to clarify whether these residents are considered to be residents of the Town concerned. Secondly, when there are surplus funds, a Town Council is allowed by clause 40 to invest in trustee stocks. As we know, there are great risks involved in the stock market. Perhaps the Town Council should appoint fund managers to give advice on such transactions to reduce the risk of wrong decisions. From the experience of AMK West Town Council in the last 20 months, we can see clearly that there are more advantages than disadvantages in the participation of residents in Town Councils. I hope Town Councils will be set up in other constituencies. In the last 30 years, we have overcome many problems and difficulties. We have been able to meet changing situations. Time and tide have changed. Our population has also changed. With changing times and situations, the expectations and aspirations of our people have heightened.”
“It was only after the Town Council was set up, in a matter of two or three months, that the project was carried out. This goes to show that even with an efficient organisation, there are instances which bring about dissatisfaction and unnecessary complaints. Some say that the Town Council is a political device to fix the Opposition MPs. It is not so. Earlier, the First Deputy Prime Minister explained clearly that the objective was to enable our residents together with the MPs to have greater opportunities of participation in improving the constituencies. If the Member of Parliament involved is from an opposition party and if he manages the estate well, carefully controlling the budget, avoiding unnecessary expenses, and the performance turns out to be better than Town Councils under the PAP Members, then he will stand a very good chance of winning future elections, which is only fair. Moreover, it is good for the stability of our political system. The Town Council scheme is, therefore, fair to the opposition member in spite of what some critics might think. Under a Town Council, the requests by the various RCs could not be approved in all cases because there are competing demands. The Town Council would have certain guidelines to follow. In some cases, an RC representative in favour of a request might have to reject it at a meeting of the Town Council which has to view such requests from the perspective of the whole Town. When the Town Councillor returns to his RC, he might be the target of criticism of his RC. On this point, I hope that all those concerned would realize that Town Councils have to deal with all requests or problems equitably taking into consideration the special needs of any zone in order to arrive at optimum solutions.”
“Mr Lau Ping Sum (Yio Chu Kang)( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the last 20 years, our housing achievement has attained considerable reputation and attracted the attention of many countries. In the housing estates, we find high-rise buildings and greenery everywhere. There is an air of freshness and vigour, a beautiful garden city. Some people might ask: under the circumstances, why should we set up Town Councils? Compared with the old system under HDB, what advantages or disadvantages are there? Is the Government introducing Town Councils to fix the opposition? From the national point of view, of course, we can see that the HDB has, without a doubt, been efficient and effective. But, as we all know the HDB is a massive statutory board. In its administration and implementation of policies, there is a tendency to be rigid. There is little flexibility to cater for requirements in different locations. The Minister mentioned this earlier on. In the housing estates, all sorts of facilities have been provided. But, it is inevitable that bureaucratic practices would surface in large organizations. The Minister pointed out that, after the Town Council was set up, additional steps and railings were provided for the Ang Mo Kio Town Garden West. Before the Town Council was set up, this particular request had been raised several times by the CCC and RCs but it had always been turned down by the HDB. The reason given was that the earth on the slope was soft and there were technical difficulties. Time was required for further study. But this type of bureaucratic reply was not convincing to the residents. Later, they said they agreed, in principle, but there was no provision of funds for such a project to be carried out for the time being.”
“Because after all the Town Council is not involved in the letting out or the termination of any lease. It will be very difficult for a Town Council to collect the fees or the charges from a tenant when it is rented out or from the HDB when it is vacant because the Town Council would not know at which point or when these properties are vacant or rented out. So it will be easier for a Town Council to just collect the fees from the owner, that is, the HDB. Just like in any other normal case in Singapore, the owner, that is, HDB, should collect it from the tenants themselves. They can do so when they collect the rental payments. Sir, the other point is under clause 38(3). It is not clear who should be responsible to the Town Council for past unpaid conservancy and service charges. I said "responsible to the Town Council" because whoever is in occupation of the particular property during that period will be responsible. But here it appears that the responsibility of collecting these charges rests on the Town Council to collect from the past tenant. Sir, I do not think this is correct. In standard practice regarding property, such past due charges are collected from the prevailing owner. And it is up to the prevailing owner to collect from the past owner. Legally, there are a lot of procedures for such legal documentation in property transactions. These procedures are already well established. Here we should simply follow market practices that are currently observed. We should not impose this responsibility of collecting these unpaid past fees from previous owners but from the present owners.”
“But what is wrong is that it also includes a list of works to be undertaken, its estimated cost, expected date of completion, amount to be expended within the financial year or the next financial year. Under this definition, every small work undertaken by a Town Council needs to be displayed. My question of course is; is the HDB presently doing this? Because this will entail a lot of work, I believe, on the staff of the Town Councils. I would suggest that instead of this very difficult task of fulfilling the requirements of the Bill, the Bill should be amended to say that the annual audited accounts should be displayed for public view and that the estimates for the following year be made; in the same format as the annual audited accounts. And perhaps for the list of works that need to be displayed, such supplementary information need only include major works and not all types of works. For these major works, for example, there can be a cut-off, maybe on a quantum basis, say, if it exceeds an expenditure of $100,000 or if it exceeds 1% of the total expenditure of a Town Council. Sir, I would now like to come to this question of conservancy and service charges in clause 38. Clause 38 makes it the responsibility of Town Councils to collect these charges from the owners if they own the flats or the stalls or from the tenants if it is rented out from the HDB. Here, I think the HDB being the owner of those rental flats or stalls should be responsible for the charges. In fact they are because if these stalls are empty, during the period when the stalls are empty the HDB actually pays for the charges. So while it is being rented out, I think it should be the responsibility of the Town Council to collect it from the HDB and not collect it from the tenants.”
“Sir, under clause 33(4), the Bill establishes a Town Council Fund and sinking funds. The Town Council Fund will be for normal expenditure and the sinking funds will be for specific expenditure. Clause 33(6) details the very specific expenditure that can be disbursed from the sinking funds and at the same time it gives a very general cover for the disbursement from the Town Council Fund so long as the expenditure is "for he purpose of exercising its powers or carrying out its duties and functions under this or any other Act." There is really nothing wrong with this particular definition. But we must transpose this with the fact that the responsibility of the HDB as an owner and a landlord of various buildings and properties is silent. Sir, then my question is, what responsibility has the HDB got towards maintenance of some of the common property which I think should be the HDB's? Because it will be very easy for the HDB in subsequent years to say that the Town Council should be responsible and the Town Council can use its Town Council Fund for those responsibilities. Sir, I think my Chairman has brought up this issue. But let us say, for example, some building defects are discovered, say, after three years. Then the question is, who will be responsible? Should it be the responsibility of the Town Council to repair these defects? Or should it be the responsibility of the HDB to ensure that its own property remains in good order? Sir, again we look at clause 36. This particular clause requires the Town Council to display annually for public view detailed estimates of revenue and expenditure for every financial year. There is nothing wrong with that.”
“That is the key phrase because the Board can make these terms and conditions so onerous that very little income, or in fact no income at all, may accrue to a Town Council. Is it a question of the Board unwilling to surrender this lucrative source of income? Because, after all, the facilities and the land belong to the Board. Since, the Town Council and the servants of a Town Council are public servants, I see no reason why the carparks cannot be transferred to the Town Council free of charge. Sir, clause 21(1)(d) confers the responsibility of lift rescue and other essential maintenance services to the Town Council. There are two points that I would like to bring up under this particular clause. One is, I think, the Bill needs to define what exactly are essential maintenance services other than lift rescue services. This is important because the word "essential" is a very subjective word. What may be essential to a Town Council may not be so to the residents or vice-versa. And what may be essential to the Government may not be so to the Town Council. Sir, in any event, I feel that lift rescue services at this point in time should not be given to the Town Council, which means that the responsibility of maintaining these services should not be given to the Town Council because I feel that the Town Coun- cils are not equipped to maintain this very important essential service. Of course, the HDB can always say that it can provide a company or a department to provide these services to the Town Councils. But it is different from the HDB being responsible for it. I feel that the responsibility for the maintenance of lift rescue services should remain with HDB. And, of course, the HDB can charge a fee to whichever Town Council that uses the services.”
“Thank you, Sir, for giving me a chance to speak in support of this Bill. Sir, I agree with the objectives of the Bill and the views and comments that have been expressed so far and therefore I would not want to touch on the macro issues touched by the First Deputy Prime Minister. However, Sir, as an MP involved in Ang Mo Kio Town Council project, may I bring up some details of the Bill which I think will help to make Town Councils a success. Sir, we all know that the main objective of the Town Councils Bill is to shift the responsibility of estate management to the Town Councils, and we all want Town Councils to be a success. However, Sir, responsibility has to come with authority and in that respect the Bill provides for sufficient authority. However, authority is only but one of the twin pillars that is necessary to support responsibility. Sir, the other pillar is money. The Town Council unfortunately needs money besides authority to carry out its responsibilities. And so therefore it seems very strange that the function generating the greatest amount of revenue or net income is specifically taken away from a Town Council. In this respect, the Member for Chong Boon (my Town Council Chairman) has already brought up the question of car parks. If you look at definitions in the Bill, car parks are specifically excluded from "common property". Sir, this means that the income from the car park fees collected is also not accrued to the Town Councils but to HDB. My question, of course, is why? But if you look under clause 19(2), Sir, a Town Council may manage any parking place upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed between the Town Council and the Board.”
“Sir, the Member for Potong Pasir had also asked in one of his comments earlier in the House what was wrong with the US type of democracy for Singapore. I think there are many things wrong. But let me just quote from Dr. Russell Kirk again. 'And why should we expect other nations lacking our political traditions and long established social institutions unendowed with America's material resources to achieve what is imperfectly attained in the United States? Do we Americans enjoy the ultimate fulfilment of human rights? To walk the streets with reasonable safety is the most basic of civil liberties. Yet millions of Americans dare not step out at night and some scarcely dare to venture by day. The safety of children at school is a basic civil right. Yet in every American city pupils are assaulted daily and some killed. Do we have no claims of right unsatisfied? Physician heal thyself.' Sir, this is what is wrong. The American system may be good for them but I believe that our system is good for us. Both our systems grew out of our own peculiar experiences. Even an American more eminent than the Member for Potong Pasir acknowledges this fact and I hope that he will do so too. Sir, I call upon this House to reject the amendment.”
“As I was saying, the statement by the State Department could go like this: 'Now that we know that you define this as interfering in your domestic affairs, we assure you that we will not conduct such activities in future. In future, we will conduct our activities within the laws and regulations of the Republic of Singapore.' Sir, between friends, this is what friends should do. And if this happens, then I would say, "Yes, it is truly a misunderstanding. It is a misunderstanding of what constitutes proper behaviour. Therefore, let us put this behind us because it is simply a misunderstanding of what is right and what is wrong behaviour." But so far, all we have are vague denials. So what can we expect from them in future? Sir, this is the whole crux of the matter - are these activities of the US State Department officials and diplomats considered interference in our domestic affairs? Or are they not? Surely, if the Americans think that they are not, then one can only infer that they will continue to conduct such similar activities in future. If not, why not come out and say so openly? Sir, the clear crux of the matter is that this is Singapore and who should define what would be considered as political domestic inteference. We or the Americans? I think the answer here is quite evident. Therefore, I would like to ask: how can the Member for Potong Pasir ask this House, ask all Singaporeans to support his amendment to "reject the government's action against alleged subversive activities"? Sir, alleged? Even when they have been so completely exposed? Truly, now I understand the saying, "None are so blind as those with eyes but cannot see."”
“Sir, it is a matter of opinion. However, let me continue, Sir. [Mr Chiam See Tong interrupted.]”
“Sir, all I am saying is that as a private individual, as a Singaporean, I need not accept the Government's official version, and I was trying to explain why I do not accept it. I gave way because I thought he has something of earth-shaking importance to tell me.”
“Sir, I did not put such implication. If he read those implica- tions into my words, then let it be so. All I am saying is that the Government has accepted the version put up officially by the US government. That is the Government's prerogative. But as a Singaporean I need not necessarily accept the official statement of the Government. All I am saying is that ---”
“We do not consider them as interfering in your domestic affairs. But if you do think that they are interference, then we are sorry we conducted them. Now that we know that you define ---'”
“We all know what zealots or believes can do in the name of good for the people. It does not matter whether these people are zealots of Marxism, religion or human rights. Sir, part of the argument put up by the Member for Potong Pasir has been that the official line of the US has been accepted by the Singapore Government. That means the interference was done by some errant diplomats and bureaucrats and that the US government has absolutely no intention to interfere in the domestic affairs of Singapore. Of course, Sir, the Singapore Government has accepted it. Sir, he has made much of this acceptance and, based on this acceptance, the Member for Potong Pasir has concluded that there was no interference. Sir, earlier I said, of course, the Singapore Government has accepted the US official line; that is what it should be between friends. To do otherwise, Sir, that is, not to accept their version, would mean irreparable damage to our friendship. But then I am not part of the Singapore Government. I am only a Backbencher and as a Singaporean, I do not have to accept Singapore's official version. I do not have to accept what the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the name of Singapore has to accept from a friend. Sir, why do I say this? My point is this. If this is the official stand of the US Government, then why does not the State Department, which is after all a Ministry of the United States Government, come out and say so? So far, all we have are vague denials. Even if the State Department truly believes that what their diplomats and what their officials have done are normal diplomatic activities, it could still come out with some sort of statement which could go like this: 'The activities as described took place.”
“It is a very interesting chapter, and I quote from this particular chapter: 'In international affairs, the United States needs to beware what Sir Herbert Butterfield calls righteousness, that is, national self-righteousness.... It is not the mission of the United States to establish universally some imitation of the American political and economic order. Every people must find their own way to order and justice and freedom. The American Constitution is not for export. The American Constitution grew out of the peculiar historical experience of the Americans. So it is with the underlying constitution of every people. An attempt to impose in short order the American pattern of rights, aside from being hopelessly impracticable, would have consequences distinctly different from those that most Americans desire.' From here, it is clear that the author (1) believes that the United States need to curb its sense of self-righteousness in the belief that the American system is best for the world; (2) cautions the policymakers in the United States not to impose its values and beliefs on other countries; and (3) realizes that the American system of democracy can lead to disastrous consequences for the countries concerned. Sir, this is the reason why I find this episode so tragic, so sad. I think the Americans involved truly believed that they were doing Singapore a service. They were doing Singapore some good. And, like missionaries, they believe that they should bring light of their democracy to the rest of the world, Singapore included. And because they are friends and because we consider them as friends, many react in horror that we should now accuse them of interfering in our domestic affairs. But, Sir, is this so strange?”
“Sir, I stand up to reject the amendment standing in the name of the Member for Potong Pasir. Sir, in support of his amendment he has stated that if he believes that there is interference in our domestic affairs, he will join us in condemning the interference or those who perpetrate the interference. However, up to now, despite the exposure given, the Member for Potong Pasir is still not convinced. Sir, I do not know what it takes to convince him but I thought that the systematic chronology of events and activities disclosed by the Minister for Trade and Industry on Wednesday was more than adequate. Perhaps he is not comfortable because the United States is a friend and why would a friend interfere in such a manner? Sir, he is perplexed perhaps because he does not think that there is an apparent motive. Many of my colleagues here have given reasons for the interference, stretching from self-interest to a belief that what is good for America is good for the world. Sir, included in some of the explanations is the philosophy of human rights and how such a philosophy has affected America's foreign policies. Perhaps if the Member for Potong Pasir does not believe us, let me quote from an eminent American scholar, one Dr. Russell Kirk. He is a distinguished fellow of the Heritage Foundation and a scholar of more than 40 years in political writings, foreign affairs and the such. Furthermore, he is also the recipient of 12 honorary Doctorates and many more such honours. Sir, in his book entitled, "The Wise Men know what wicked things are written on the sky", he has a chapter on Human Rights.”
“Sir, I was listening to the Member for Potong Pasir when he asked us to learn from the United States. I waited with abated breath to see what we can really learn. He came up with really nothing new. But more importantly, in the next breath, he says that he fears that the GRC may open up a Pandora's box and may lead to demands for quotas, for example, for jobs in the civil service, for quotas for various types of minority races in various organizations. Sir, I just want to ask him whether he knows that in the US there are such things as minority affirmative action programmes for the minorities. For example, for the negros, for the blacks, for the Spanish in New York, for the Chinese in California, and so on. Does he not know that ---”