Lim Boon Heng
Singapore
“On the first question on foreign domestic worker levy relief for single women who are looking after their aged parents, I think that question should be addressed to the Minister for Manpower and the Ministry of Finance.”
“I shall address the second point first. When it is clearly an item for a Ministry, a Member should address that question to that Ministry because that Ministry is also responsible for that even if it is related to ageing.”
“For those who wonder what the Fourth Age is, it is basically the last couple of years of your life when you are afflicted by, perhaps, chronic illnesses and therefore need to be cared for.”
“The Wellness Programme applies to all estates. In the pilot project, we deliberately chose 12 pilot sites to reflect different mixes. For example, we chose Ulu Pandan, which has a lot of private estates.”
“Maybe MCYS and the PMO could really look into these RC centres to see whether they could incorporate some of the needs of the elderly in these centres as well, like an extra area for karaoke or even mahjong. This area should be quiet and enclosed because the elderly sing loudly as they cannot hear very well.”
“The process has already started. We are already debating this issue in Parliament. The unions have taken up the issue with the management. I know and I am aware of that. So, let the process take its course.”
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“The reserves are closely linked up with our CPF and it is also closely linked up with the efficiency of our various ministries in the civil service and our efficient administration and the Government's good policies. If one day unfortunately there is a bad government appearing just like the Marcos era in the Philippines where there was nepotism and employment of close relatives and friends and cronies to important posts, that is to say, when one person has attained a high and powerful position even his cronies become very important officials and so on. In the end the whole country was in a turmoil and national coffers become empty. Sri Lanka after independence has this painful experience where the Government had to curry favour with and give lots of subsidies and so on to the people. So, now the country has depleted its reserves and is heavily in debt. Even the British system of civil service inherited by it is degenerating because of nepotism. All these are examples which we should learn lessons from. So we should not allow Singapore to fall into the same trap because our survival depends on our efficiency and that is a distinguishing point. We could compete with other countries and our reserves are the only asset and the important factor and safeguard that have prevented us from failure but have seen us through the last world-wide depression. We do not have natural resoures. We have to use money to buy everything from foreign countries. If there is no safeguard in the Constitution for these two things, the reserves and the civil service, it will be very perilous for us. Maybe the elected President is a safeguard. But it is not an absolute safeguard.”
“I don't mean that such things can also happen in Singapore. But, in order not to let a country fall or rise with a personality, I hope this will not happen to Singapore, such a proposed safeguard is very necessary and impor- tant. We are still very young. We have been independent only for 23 years. There are many things which have not been institutionalized. Therefore, for the long term interest of Singapore, we have to gradually institutionalize certain good points and systems favourable for our peace and stability for our future in order to avoid any unfavourable factors or influences affecting and stability from arising. Recently, we had passed a GRC Bill which is an example of institutionalizing our multi-racial politics in a system of multi-racial parliamentary representation. So, the elected President's proposal at this juncture is also another timely measure. At the moment, our Constitution does not have any provision preventing any government squandering away our reserves and there is no provision to safeguard our civil service to maintain their integrity, neutrality and fair dealings. Therefore, the White Paper proposals are to institutionalize these safeguards. There are people who ask: since we have good leaders and our Government is running well, why should we take upon the trouble to create this kind of new institution? It is true that for the past 30 years Singapore has maintained clean government with integrity and an efficient civil service that has accumulated $30 billion reserves. It is only because of our good Government and leadership. But can we ensure that this condition will always be maintained in future? We know that our national reserves and assets mainly come from the savings of our people.”
“That is the reason for the President of this corporation to be given this power to safeguard and curb the ability of squandering by any future directors. That is an analogy. It would be very ideal to have an elected President with the qualifications of Prime Minister Lee, because this will give the people a sense of security, feeling sure that there will be stability, at least in the coming 5-10 years. At the moment, the proposal for an elected President with powers given by the Constitution to safeguard the national reserves and to maintain the integrity of the public service is an added guarantee and safeguard for our future. Those who are watchful of Singapore would have noticed that our political leadership has now entered into the final stage of transition. That is the most important stage in the political life of Singapore. In the past 30 years, up to now, it is the most important stage in the political transition. The older generation of founders in the political leadership has now completed the work and is handing over their tasks and responsibilities to the younger generation. This is a preparatory measure paving the way for a future Singapore. To a newly emerging country, institutionalization is a very important stage in the transition process because in a young country many things are not yet established in the right tracks. Many systems have not been institutionalized. Therefore, to have some important features like political system institutionalized is very important. In many third world countries, because of lack of safeguard of institutionalizing politics and government, the administration in those countries used to rise up and fall down according to the personality. The recent rioting in Burma is a very clear example.”
“If the US Congress or Senate disapproves the nomination, the President has to put up another nominee. So in their system, since the Chief Executive of government is the President, it is for the President to propose and the second mechanism does not imply that the US President has less powers or that the US does not trust the President they elect. In our system, the Prime Minister is the Chief Executive of State. He puts up the nomination. We have the President to check on the quality of the nominees. If the President concurs, a second opinion is given, is that not good for us to have this checking mechanism? Sir, Government has made its proposal after much internal discussions. The issue is now for further public discussion. I support the principles and urge this House to support it. Question proposed. 12.33 pm Mr Goh Choon Kang (Braddell Heights)( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, since the announcement of the White Paper it has aroused a lot of talks and discussions among the people both inside and outside Singapore. A major Japanese newspaper a few days ago also commented on this editorializing the importance of letting the President to have greater powers to safeguard the national assets and reserves. The paper made a comparison of the set-up with a corporation, which I feel is very apt, describing Prime Minister Lee as the head person who started the corporation. Now that he is handing over the business to the younger generation, he himself now becomes the President of the corporation. What is important and of concern is the future of the corporation, ie, the reserves accumulated over the past years, whether the assets will be squandered away by any future directors.”
“In fact, the Member for Potong Pasir is reported to have said that he thinks everyone should be entitled to stand for the Presidency. I beg to disagree with him. When companies carefully screen their candidates for senior positions, should we not do the same when we select someone to keep a check on billions of dollars? I think it is only right that we pick capable people, experienced in public affairs, able to see the overall national interest. He should be one who is wise and decisive. Some say the proposal in the White Paper gives the President executive powers. I do not think so. All that the President can do is to block the spending, tell us about it and if the government disagrees with the President, the case can be put to the people. A referendum will be held and we let the people decide. After all, finally the power comes from the people it should be the people, who decide. In the case of key appointments in the public service, I agree that we should ensure that the best people get appointed. It is for the Prime Minister to propose and for the President to concur or disagree. If the President disagrees, he himself cannot propose someone else. The President can- not nominate somebody else for appointment to the public service. It is still for the Prime Minister to propose a different name. In the United States, the President is the Chief Executive. The United States President nominates people to key offices of State. But the United States legislature acts as a check. They hold congressional hearings to assess the suitability of the President's nominee. Does it mean that they do not trust their popularly elected President? No. It is a system of checks and balances.”
“There is a treasurer in the committee, but he alone cannot give effect to a cheque. He signs the cheque, but someone else in the committee must also sign. Does it mean that we do not trust the treasurer? No. We want someone else to sign so as to protect the money of the organization and it is a system of checks and balances. Every well-run company adopts the same practice. Not only does the accountant or financial controller sign the cheque, but someone else must also sign the cheque before the bank will clear it. It is a practice to protect the company from embezzlement. It is not that the company does not trust the people it employs, in particular the accountant or the financial controller. Again, it is a system of checks and balances. So as we have this checking mechanism in community organizations which deal with probably a few thousand dollars at most and we also have the same system in well-run companies dealing with millions of dollars, should we not have the President doing the same thing for our reserves, because there is much more money at stake, $31 billions just as far as the foreign reserves are concerned? I believe all of us want a checking mechanism. Even the opposition parties are in favour of a checking mechanism, if I read the reports in the press correctly. They may not agree that giving the President custodial powers is the best way. I think they agree that it is one workable method. If they have better ideas, it is for them to put them forward. They have had four years to think about this issue. If they have any better ideas, they should be able to present them now. Some people question the need to limit the number of people who qualify for standing for election as President to someone with previous ministerial or high executive experience.”
“4 billion as of March 1988. So every dollar we have in the CPF is backed by a dollar in foreign reserves, and these foreign reserves are our real assets. So should we not protect our foreign reserves? The answer is obviously yes. We want to make sure that every dollar we have in our CPF savings is worth a dollar and no less. So we must protect our foreign reserves. Government is therefore proposing that the President acts as a check. He is our warning system. He sounds the alarm when he feels that the government is proposing to spend our reserves unwisely. To do this effectively, he should have a mandate. The mandate should come from the people. We can only exercise our right to vote and choose our government every four or five years. In between general elections, we give the government the mandate to govern and to act on our behalf. So it is good to have the President check on our behalf the actions of the government in respect of our foreign reserves. When the President is directly elected by the people, he has a responsibility to the people. It is his duty to act as a custodian of our foreign reserves. He cannot be removed by Members of Parliament. MPs cannot vote him out if he is carrying out his duties to protect our reserves. This, I feel, is a necessary check. Otherwise giving the President custodial powers can be circumvented by MPs voting him out in Parliament. We do not want this. Some people ask: does it mean that we do not trust the government which is elected by the people? Some go on to ask: does it mean we do not trust future Prime Ministers? I do not think that by having a President to block any unwise move amounts to distrust of all future Prime Ministers. It is like the operation of community organizations such as the CCCs and the RCs.”
“Indeed, many people have done so by writing to the newspapers, by voicing their views to the Feedback Unit, and also at constituency-level discussions. Today we have a further opportunity to debate on the concept in this House. I have no doubt that pertinent points will be noted by the Government in the drafting of the Bill. First, what is the objective of the Bill? The objective is to build into our system a checking mechanism to protect our financial assets and the integrity of our public services. Our assets are our national wealth. It has been built up from scratch. Today our foreign reserves alone amount to about $31 billion. Add to it what we have in other funds and the assets of Government-owned companies, and we have a lot more. To me, what is most important is that the wealth of the nation is also the wealth of the people. It is your money. It is my money. It is hard-earned money. Almost all of us have CPF funds. Apart from financing our housing needs and hospitalization expenses, it is also our retirement fund. When we all reach the age of 55 yrears, we look forward to receiving our CPF savings to see us through our senior years. The Government is holding our CPF money in trust. We want to be sure that Government is able to pay us our CPF savings in hard currency, in valuable money, when we reach 55 years, and not in devalued currency. It is like putting money in a savings bank. We want to be sure that the bank is soundly run by honest people, by capable people. How can we be sure that the Government can pay us when we retire? As of March 1988, our total CPF savings amount to about $31 billion. That is the money of all our workers, of all our people, $31 billion. Our official foreign reserves are also just above $31 billion, about $31.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That this House supports the principles set out in the White Paper "Constitutional Amendments to Safeguard Financial Assets and the Integrity of the Public Services" which was presented to Parliament as Paper Cmd. 10 of 1988 as the basis for preparing a Bill for an elected President. Sir, let me first define the terms of the motion. I am asking this House to support the principles for a popularly elected President. The President so elected by popular vote will act as a custodian of our financial assets and serve to protect the integrity of our public Services. The support that I am asking this House to give is for the principles outlined in the White Paper to form the basis for drafting a Bill for a popularly elected President. All Bills, as we know, must go through due Parliamentary processes. So when the proposed Bill on an elected President is ready, it has first to be introduced by the Government, read a Second time, when this House will debate on it, and amended as deemed necessary by the House before it goes through a Third Reading, and becomes law. Sir, the proposal for a popularly elected President is a major constitutional change. It is therefore necessary for the proposal to be thoroughly discussed and debated. The Government has not rushed through this proposal. It has taken its time since the idea was mooted publicly in 1984, before presenting this White Paper. In other words, the concept of a popularly elected President to protect our financial assets was made public before the 1984 General Elections. Notwithstanding this, the Government has taken the step to present a White Paper for public discussion. The people of Singapore now has the opportunity, once again, to give their views on the subject.”
“But here I would like to ask the Minister and officers of the Labour Ministry to note one thing, that is, wage flexibility should not mean that during a recession only the workers are asked to get less wages and tighten their belts, but when the companies have recovered and are making good profit the employers need not necessarily or,indeed, would usually be rather unwilling to adjust the wages and pay more to their workers. So I hope the officers in the Ministry of Labour and the employers would pay attention to this so that when the companies are in good position, they could be more magnanimous in negotiating with the workers and be able to pay the workers more fairly. Having said so, here I would like to express my support for the Bill.”
“Only with cooperation and mutual trust between unions and employers can the good relations between them be maintained and agreement achieved, quickly and amicably, in negotiations on the implementation of a flexible wage system. This Bill is a document that should be adhered to, in the best and most judicious manner possible, by both parties, employers as well as unions. I support the Bill. Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon (Yuhua)( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise in support of this Bill. For several months past, many people have been asking for this amendment and I am very happy that the Minister has now brought up this Amendment Bill. A just, comprehensive and timely employment law is very important. Today, in Singapore, we are having economic prosperity and industrial stability. It is because all along we have a very fair and reasonable Employment Act, and the Government has also been adopting a very flexible policy about amendments to the relevant law, so that our industrial relationship has now entered a stage of maturity. So now the employers and the employees can negotiate about salary and bonus in relation to business condition and productivity. This is very reasonable. The old law restricts the quantum of bonus. The new legislation promotes wage reform and flexibility through negotiation in relation to a company's performance and workers' productivity. I believe all our unions would support this legislation.”
“Thus, instead of large service increments tied directly to the basic salary, we now have a wage system of three components: service increments at a lower rate, a variable component based on profits or productivity, and the annual wage supplement, or AWS. The 1988 Employment (Amendment) Bill gives a clear picture of these changes. It would certainly facilitate negotiations between employers and employees on the implementation of a flexible wage system, as the Bill also eliminates several ambiguities that existed in the present Act. I am glad that in drafting this Bill, the Ministry of Labour observed this fundamental point. I believe both sides, employers and the trade unions, have been consulted beforehand and all their views have been duly considered. Tripartite involvement has become a characteristic of our system of good industrial relations. Consensus between the Government, employers and the unions has ensured our stability and progress. During the recession years, the unions had swiftly and courageously adjusted by accepting wage restraint. The time has now come for employers to adjust to our rather strong economic performance and tight labour market. We have just accepted wage reform as a means to more flexible wage system. Many employers have adjusted their companies' salary scales, but there are still others who have deliberately delayed such adjustments. It is hoped that the Ministry of Labour would urge these procrastinating employers to be more positive in their attitude; they must show confidence in the leadership of the unions by implementing fair and appropriate salary adjustments.”
“There is general agreement, I believe, that we can meet both points of view by paying part of the wage increases as a wage adjustment, an adjustment to basic wages, and part of it as a variable payment. Since the economy is performing very strongly this year, we can give workers a reasonable adjustment to basic wages and a better bonus at the end of the year. Indeed, we have this opportunity to take a big step forward in implementing a flexi-wage system generally in the economy, if all companies follow this principle. Whilst there has been good progress in wage reform and more than 300 companies have already implemented wage reforms, I think we still have a long way to go. I share the Minister's concern that we should continue to press on with wage reform so that we are all prepared, not only those companies with wage reforms or flexi-wages in place but also all companies in Singapore are prepared for any possible future recession. Encik Abbas Abu Amin (Pasir Panjang)( In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, the main purpose of the Employment (Amendment) Bill 1988 is to facilitate the implementation of a flexible wage system. It lays down the procedure for payment of the variable annual bonus and annual wage supplement to our workers. Clearly, the Bill provides us with a framework to be used by unions and employers in their wage negotiations. In recent years, as Singapore went through the recession, the pattern of our wage negotiations have undergone some changes following recommendations by NWC. These changes were to enable employers to make quick adjustments whenever a severe financial difficulty arises, in order that our workers' jobs are not affected.”
“But here, I think the arguments in favour of retaining the 13th month payment has been taken heed of by the Minister because at the end of the year most workers depend on this 13th month payment to pay for various expenses such as children's education, school textbooks, school fees, and also for festival expenses. So the provision remains the same. This issue of the annual wage supplement highlights the fact that wage reform cannot be done overnight. Employers cannot simply turn the annual wage supplement into a variable payment. Negotiations have to take place between unions and workers. Of course, by this, I refer to annual wage supplements of more than one month. Only when it is mutually agreed by both parties, can the annual wage supplement be converted into a variable payment. In the course of negotiations, there will certainly be differences of view and differences in preferences on the form of flexibility. Over the past month or so, we have dealt with one important issue - what sort of wage adjustment can workers look forward to from year to year? Is it only 2% service increment? How should this be treated in a booming economy and a tight labour market? I believe that we have reached a proper understanding of the two main concerns. From the employers' viewpoint, wage pressures in a booming economy and tight labour market should not cause wage levels to be pushed up to uncompetitive levels. This is the main concern of employers. From the workers' viewpoint, wage increases should be an equitable distribution of the wealth generated to meet their aspirations for a better quality of life.”
“With the new section 48(2) it is very clear that unions and management can negotiate for variable payments without infringing the law. The original draft of the Bill contained a provision to place an upper limit on the amount of variable payment that may be paid. The unions felt that specifying a maximum would be against the spirit of flexibility that wage reform aims to achieve. I am glad that the Minister for Labour is persuaded by this view and has removed the original provision of a cap on variable payments from the Bill. I know that some employers had wanted this cap to remain but in his wisdom the Minister for Labour has concurred with the workers. Changing our wage system is not an easy task. Workers must not feel that hard-won gains could be wiped out overnight. In this respect, the annual wage supplements that have been agreed to in collective agreements are protected by this Bill. This is particularly important to workers who are receiving more than one month annual wage supplements, eg, those workers in the banking industry or the insurance industry. These workers will continue to be paid the same amount of annual wage supplements unless they reach a new agreement with their employers. On this issue of annual wage supplement, the current provision of a 13th month payment has been forced since 1972 and is still in force, that is to say, any new agreement cannot specify more than one month annual wage supplement. In the discussions on this subject, some employers had wanted the annual wage supplement also made variable.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise in support of the Bill. This Bill has been discussed within the NTUC, among employers and by the GPC on Labour before it was introduced in this House. The process of consultation and discussion was confidential so the public at large did not know what views were expressed and how the original draft Bill was changed and altered. But it is a very important process. The Government has frequently adopted this approach before presenting Bills to Parliament. At least I know that where labour legislation is concerned, the Ministry of Labour normally seeks the views of the NTUC prior to raising the matter in Parliament and I assume that similar discussions took place with employer groups. So by the time a Bill is introduced in Parliament, Government has had the benefit of the views of people who may be affected by them or from people with the expertise on the subject. In the case of this present Bill, the consultation process took about a year. Consequently, the original draft has been altered and the Bill is a balance between the views of unions and employers. The main objective of the Bill is to facilitate wage reform. When the NWC Sub-Committee on Wage Reform presented its report in November 1986, unions asked for the Employment Act to be amended to allow negotiations on variable payments based on trading results or productivity because the previous provision in the Employment Act was considered to be rather restrictive and our unions did not want to run foul of the law and wanted the law to spell out very clearly that they are entitled to negotiate with the employers for variable payments based on trading results or productivity.”
“Now, let me turn to some technical details of the Bill. My Councillors, as I am sure all Town Councillors, are very interested to know what are the implications of clause 50. What does it mean when it says Town Councillors are deemed to be public servants for the purposes of the Penal Code? I would appreciate, if possible, an answer from the Minister. Next, clause 39 allows the Town Council to borrow money. Whilst the Town Council is accountable to the residents, is it implicit that ultimately Government will be accountable if a Town Council defaults? This is a question which has been raised by other Members. I think the intention is that if you give the Town Council autonomy, they should bear the responsibility. But an impression may be created in the minds of people that, finally, if there is mismanagement, it is the Government that would pick up the tabs at the end of it all. And this impression may be reinforced by the requirement that Town Council accounts are in fact, to be audited by the Auditor-General or his representatives. And one final point - the question of fines. Clause 38(6) allows the Town Council to levy fines for late payment or non-payment of fees. The question is: if a fine is levied and if the person does not pay the fine, then by the due process of law does it mean that the person could be jailed if he persists in not paying up the fine or his arrears?”
“These are some of the things that can be done. Residents, essentially, look for a Town Council to maintain their flats in good condition. Let me give you one example of what a Town Council can do. With age, buildings would show a certain amount of wear and tear. One of the problems that have arisen in HDB flats is the problem of spalling concrete. It is because we as a Town Council recognize or define the problem and managed to establish the extent of this problem, and our ability to work as a group to bring this matter up with the HDB, that we have got a solution to this problem. In fact, the problem of spalling concrete is being attended to right now in Ang Mo Kio West Town Council. And because of the representations made by the Ang Mo Kio West Town Council, the repairs would also be done to all the HDB estates elsewhere. This is a benefit to HDB residents that has come out of the operation of Town Councils. So, after this period of experience, I can confidently say that Town Councils work, the concept itself works, and there is still a large area of creativity among residents that we have not yet tapped. And we intend to tap on this area of creativity to make Ang Mo Kio West a livelier and more pleasant place to live in. I am surprised that the Member for Potong Pasir is unprepared to do this, and that now what he means by a model constituency is that he should be the Member of Parliament and the Government should do it for him. Now if the Government is not going to do it for him, the residents should do it for him. That is what he is saying in his half-hour speech.”
“We do so not by resorting merely to pressure and penalties but by explanation and recognizing needs. The wall murals that we have painted were not aimed solely at livening up the void decks but also to discourage football playing in the void decks, a common problem in our housing estates, and also the problem of vandalism. So far, all the murals that we have painted are in good condition. This means that people will respect a piece of art or something of value. So that is the direction in which we go towards fostering better habits among residents. We recognize, however, that outlets must be provided for children. For playing football, we are looking at suitable sites for the building of five-a-side soccer pitches, and we may include this in our proposed leisure park which is also described in our latest Town News. Improvements to the living environment may not come solely from fees paid to the Town Council or residents' contributions. We feel that for certain projects it is justifiable to ask the Government for funds, perhaps through the URSC, and we will be putting up our requests to the relevant authority soon. We may also derive income from providing services. Yesterday, my colleague, the Member for Yio Chu Kang, raised the question of private housing estates within Town Council boundaries. I see no reason why we cannot provide TV reception services - antennae - in HDB blocks to the residents in private housing estates for a fee. We service the TV antennae in HDB blocks. It is easy enough for us to extend the service. Furthermore, grass-cutting in small private estates could be more cost-effective if included in Town Council contracts. Why not derive the benefits of scale and perhaps give the Town Council a small income?”
“The key question here is: are residents prepared, if they want better facilities, to pay for those better facilities? In his speech yesterday, the Minister has said that residents may be willing to pay for part of the cost for better facilities. I am pleased to say that residents are willing to pay for better facilities. One of our blocks will have an enhanced Residents' Corner. They have agreed to pay for part of the cost. This was reported in yesterday's Lianhe Zaobao. Speaking of Residents' Corners, here is an area where the effect of HDB and the effect of Town Councils would be different. In the case of HDB, when they implement Residents' Corners, they have to implement it for every block in Singapore. We as a town council feel that this kind of expenditure is not necessary. We should build Residents' Corners at places where they are going to be useful and we have put up to the HDB to give us that portion of the funds and let us decide how and where we shall implement Residents' Corners. I have so far not had a favourable response from the HDB but the matter is still being pursued. But it shows that if we spend money where it is needed, then we do not spend money unwisely and therefore we can save money from the limited income that we may have. The fact that residents are prepared to pay for better facilities shows us that there is now a gradual transformation in the attitude of residents. We see the beginning of an awareness that common areas can be used for the benefit of residents and that they can enjoy these better benefits or facilities by contributing to its enhancement. We have on our part to inculcate a sense of social responsibility. We intend to help residents to break away from old habits that cause damage to the environment.”
“We have provided essentially what the HDB has provided to the residents and now there is closer supervision both by the staff as well as by the residents. We feel that it is a good idea to monitor the number of unsolicited complaints to give us a measure of the level of satisfaction of the residents. This will tell us whether we are doing well to the satisfaction of the residents or not, and the results are published in our latest Town News, a copy of which has been distributed to our Members. You can see from page 3 of our Town News that there is a firm downward trend, indicating that the residents have lesser and lesser complaints. I may update you on the latest month's figures that we have, and that is for May, and that figure is 324. So you can see that it is still going down. Next, let us look at the participation aspect. Have residents been given the opportunity to participate? The answer is yes. All the pilot Town Councils have been encouraging feedback and sugges- tions. They have made it convenient for residents to do so through suggestion boxes put up at RC centres, phone-in, or direct mail, and the Town Councillors themselves have been able to put forward many ideas and, in the last 21 months, to implement them. Although it is only 21 months, Ang Mo Kio is now beginning to look different from two years ago. Those who are familiar with Ang Mo Kio can compare what Ang Mo Kio was like two years ago and now. I am sure that even within this short period of time there are already visible differences. I am confident that given a period of five years, the ideas of Councillors and residents will turn Ang Mo Kio into a more interesting and livelier town. Better facilities inevitably mean more cost.”
“I have the figures for my own Town Council which had earlier been circulated to all Members. My Town Council, the Ang Mo Kio West Town Council, is the smallest of the three Councils with 15,400 residential units and shophouses. After setting aside approximately 25% of our income for the sinking funds, we had an operating surplus of about $750,000 in the first year of operation and about $188,000 in the first nine months of the second year. So after 21 months, we have an operating surplus of about $940,000 and we have $3,150,000 in our sinking funds. In total, we have a net balance of $4.1 million. Compare this with HDB's former performance, HDB has no surplus. HDB has no sinking fund. So this means that the pilot Town Councils have demonstrated that they have done well from the financial point of view. Thus Town Councils are viable. A more active democracy does not, in this case, mean higher costs. You will be interested to know what the picture will be like if there had been no Government grant for the first 21 months of our operation, and that Government grant amounted to $2.65 million. If we do not include this, our net balance would not be $4.1 million but we still have $1.45 million surplus. What it means is that we would not have been able to set aside the full 25% of our income as sinking fund but nevertheless we are still doing well. We have accumulated a surplus as compared to the HDB. Some of you may ask: have these surpluses been obtained at a lower level of service? Yesterday, the Chairman of the Ang Mo Kio East Town Council disclosed the results of a survey conducted by his Council, and it showed a very high level of satisfaction. In Ang Mo Kio West, we have not cut back on services.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, from what has been said by various Members of the House this morning, I think there is still some nagging doubt or concern in the minds of Members about whether in practice the Town Coun- cil concept works. Speaking as a person who has run a Town Council for almost 22 months, let me perhaps throw some light on the operation of a Town Council and the results that we have achieved. We should examine this from different perspectives. First, since our objective is to have a more active democracy, participation by the people, then does it come with a cost? In other words, does it mean that Town Councils will result in higher costs? Higher than what? We have to define that point. What is the point of reference? The only point of reference is the HDB, ie, the HDB's performance all these years. This being the case, then the pilot Town Councils in the last 21 months have demonstrated that they have not performed poorly as compared to the HDB. The income that we receive as Town Councils is exactly the same as what HDB gets in service and conservancy charges, in terms of subsidy from the Government. In the area of maintenance of car parks and hawker centres, we receive from the HDB what they have been spending on car parks and hawker centres. So what has been the result? The three pilot Town Councils have been able to work within this income. Yesterday the Chairman of the Ang Mo Kio East Town Council disclosed that his Council chalked up a surplus of $946,400 in the first year of operation, and $538,000 in the first nine months of the second year. He could have added that his Council, in addition to the surplus, accumulated a sinking fund. The Ang Mo Kio South Town Council has also accumulated a sinking fund and recorded an overall surplus.”
“Sir, we have a long and lively debate. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.”
“May I make a suggestion, Sir. I know that a number of Members are interested in speaking on this subject. I am prepared to forgo all the other cuts that I have left on this Head, if you will agree.”
“Join the union. Dr Aline K. Wong: I am also an advisor to the HDB union. Since the NUS cannot accommodate all those students who pass their 'A' level examinations and who wish to have university education - please get me right, please listen to me carefully that is, I support that NUS should uphold its high standard of academic achievement, that it should have its own rather high standard of admission criteria - but I am talking about those students who have passed their 'A' level examinations and who wish to have a university education and therefore cannot have any recourse but to go overseas for education. It is a fact that students who have gained admission to reputable tertiary institutions abroad can do well, have done well and, in fact, have returned to have successful careers. So what can we do for this group of students? An hon. Member: Not all of them.”
“Therefore, it shows that there is no real difficulty of parents to send their children to university. I hope that Members who favour using CPF for education will reconsider their position. But I do not think the Member for Ayer Rajah would take "No" for an answer easily. It is not in his nature and I would be very disappointed if he did. So I hope he will say his piece, listen to the views of other Members, the reply of the Minister and, if he is still not convinced, then go back, take a re-look at the issue, then come back again to this House next year if he is still persuaded that we should allow the use of CPF funds for tertiary education.”
“In our case, if we proceed on that road, one bright fresh young Member of Parliament will at a future date be telling us in this House the urgency of reforming the CPF. Is there a pressing need here that we cannot meet through other means? After all, what is the problem? The problem is that people want to have funds to put their children through university. It is only 10-20% who may be in a position to use their CPF funds for sending their children to university. So I think there are other options available. Let us tackle the problem where it is, that is, the availability of funds for putting their children through university. One possibility is to encourage young parents to plan ahead. Have children, plan ahead for your children, set aside some savings regularly so that when they reach the age to go to university there is a sum for them to meet their expenses. They could set up this savings account in the names of their children. There is also another alternative, and that is, to buy insurance policies for the education of children. Many of these policies are available now, including NTUC Income. For those whose children are already grown up, the time is past to talk about buying insurance policy or saving up. But what is the alternative? They can take up loans. We have a tertiary education loan scheme implemented last year. I was in the United Kingdom recently and they are talking about a loan scheme for their own education system. From what I understand, in our own loan scheme, so far the number of people who have to take loans is very small. Maybe the Minister could let us know how many people have taken loans and what amounts have actually been taken up. But the amount has been very small.”
“But in the homes of the lower income group and among workers, they are talking about CPF for primary education and secondary education, not tertiary education. If we allow CPF for tertiary education, then on what basis are we to deny the low-income parents the right to use his CPF to put his children through school? To him it is far more important that he should be allowed to use his CPF savings in order to ensure that his child or children get through primary and secondary school. In our dialogue with trade unionists, we have been from time to time urged to ask the Government to allow them to pay from the CPF the bills which they are unable or find difficulty to pay. For example, PUB bills. Have we not, as Members of Parliament, received appeals from our constituents to help them obtain release of their CPF funds to pay for PUB arrears, rent arrears, service and conservancy charge arrears? How are we to explain to them that we can allow the high income earners to use the CPF savings for education of their children but not to allow the poor the use of the CPF for schooling of their children? I think we will be opening Pandora's box if we proceed with the suggestion. More requests will be made. More items will be loaded on to the CPF. It reminds me of the loading of the social security systems in many Western countries. To fund the increased demand, more taxes have to be raised but Western governments find they cannot easily raise taxes as the effect of raising taxes has other consequences. So some of the governments in the West have begun to try to unscramble the mess that they are in, to simplify their social security systems.”
“Many said that they could do better if they were allowed to invest the money themselves and no amount of explanation - that we should take a long-term view, that we should consider the difficulties of investing large sums of money - would satisfy the public. And if my recollection is right, Members of this House pressed the case of the public very assiduously to the Minister for Labour. So the Government acceded and pegged the CPF interest rate to the average rate of the four big banks. Government also allowed CPF holders to invest their CPF money within certain limits. Then what happened? When the stock market crashed, what do we hear? Some who lost their monies blamed the Government. In fact, I recollect that there were people outside who said, "You know the risks. Why did you allow me to lose my money investing in the stock exchange?" I agree people are now wiser about investment in stocks and shares. The lesson is learnt that it is not easy to invest money. And the Government's original policy on CPF interest rate was not wrong. In fact, now I think many would have preferred that we had left the CPF interest rate where it was, at 6ª%. Once CPF was allowed for investment in what is described as the Stock Exchange Casino, the arguments for allowing the use of CPF for tertiary education became stronger. The fact that we have also introduced the Minimum Sum Scheme has weakened somewhat the Government's case for not allowing the use of CPF for education because it is very easy to argue that investment in education is sounder and more valuable than investment in stocks and shares. I have my reservations because CPF for education means different things to different people. We are talking about tertiary education here.”
“Sir, two weeks ago the Member for Ayer Rajah introduced in this House a Report supporting the use of CPF funds for the tertiary education of CPF members' children. I think it was a well-documented report and a persuasive document. Certainly the issue is a popular one. We all know it through discussions with our grassroots leaders in our constituencies and it is quite natural for us to come to this House to press the case. In our GPC for Labour, I was against pursuing the matter after the Minister's comprehensive reply to this House last year and also in other forums. So I thought to pursue the issue would be like flogging a dead horse. However, the issue is such a popular one that I acceded to a re-examination of this issue in my GPC. My GPC is divided on the issue. There is a majority view, however, that the proposal should be supported. My GPC members would therefore speak their own minds. I have had further reflections on the subject and must regrettably tell my friend, the Member for Ayer Rajah, that I am not in favour of allowing CPF to be used for education. Let me explain why. As Members of this House, we should not merely articulate popular feeling on an issue. Certainly we should to so. But we should give our considered opinion, our own individual considered opinion on the issue. What the people want may not always be the right thing to do. Take the case of allowing investment of CPF funds in shares and gold. What was the origin of this idea? I recollect that at a time of high interest rates, the CPF interest rate was fixed, I believe, at 6ª%; people were unhappy. They said that the CPF interest rate ought to be higher.”
“Firstly, the right of part-time workers to receive the same treatment as full-time workers in the same situation except where the difference in hours of work itself objectively justifies differences in treatment. Secondly, the right not to be discriminated against as regards working conditions, rules concerning dismissal established by legislation and collective agreements. The eligibility to join unions, to vote in union elections and to stand as candidates in the union elections. I am aware that the employers are not in favour of allowing part-time workers to be unionized but here I must state that every worker should have the right to join a union whether he works part-time or full-time. The third principle is the right to pro-rata pay, including holiday pay. The fourth principle, the right to statutory benefit schemes, for example, the right to CPF.”
“The experience of the United Kingdom is that part-timers are concentrated in retail distribution, education, health and hotels and catering. These are also areas where we can encourage the greater use of part-timers rather than to allow a liberal allocation of work permits to employ foreign workers. The problem with encouraging part-time work is that we do not have legislation to regulate the employment of part-timers and to protect workers from discrimination and exploitation. This is a gray area on which both the unions and employers are studying. As far as the employers are concerned, I think they are concerned with the costs. As far as the unions are concerned, they are concerned with the protection of workers who may be employed part-time. The Minister stated last year that there is a lack of in-depth studies on the subject. I have asked for research to be done both within my GPC as well as the NTUC on the subject, and I have come across two reports. One is from Canada. They commissioned an inquiry and set up a commission of inquiry into part-time work and this was completed in 1983. I have a copy of that report. I will furnish a copy to the Minister if he has not already got one. The other is work done by the EEC. In fact, they have done work and submitted a draft directive to the EEC Council of Ministers in 1981 and an amended directive was submitted in 1983. So it was quite several years ago. However, they are also aware that this is a new subject, a fresh area, and they have not yet implemented that directive. Similarly, work has been done in Japan. From these reports we can draw the following principles to safeguard part-time workers. I would like to state these principles.”
“Sir, I wish now to speak on part-time work. One of the ways by which we can help to alleviate the problem of labour shortage is through the encouragement of part-time work for two categories of people, housewives and older workers. According to the Ministry of Labour's statistics, 26,800 women or 5.9% of women workers are working part-time already. So there is in fact some experience with part-time work. Although this is a substantial number, it is still very low compared to what other countries such as Denmark, United Kingdom or Canada have achieved. For example, in 1979 the proportion of part-time workers as a percentage of total number of workers is 19%. In the United Kingdom, as of 1986, it was 22% and in 1981 in Canada it was 13.5%. So if we look at our own figure of 5.9% of women workers, this is very low because if we take that total figure as a percentage of the total number of workers in the workforce, it will be just over 2%. In the countries that I have quoted, Denmark, United Kingdom and Canada, the high rate of women's participation in the workforce results from the use of part-time work. In fact, if my memory serves me right, in the United Kingdom the proportion of women who are working part-time as against a total number of women workers is well over 30%. I think it is about 35-37%. So by the experience of these countries, there is a substantial way for us to go yet and this is an encouraging pool of workers on which we can draw to alleviate our labour shortage problem. Recently, our employers have looked at part-time work more seriously. I think there is more scope for greater use of part-time work, especially in the service sector.”
“Could I let the Minister reply to this question first?”
“And thirdly, as we have discussed earlier, the slowdown in the number of births resulting in lesser number of new job entrants require us to make the most efficient use of the experience and resources of older workers for economic growth.”
“So they do not want to open discussions at all. This is a very negative attitude. In order to get the employers to move, I would suggest that the Ministry of Labour spell out the programme for implementation of the reduced CPF contribution rates for those above 55. Some of the employers may be waiting to find out how it is going to be implemented in order to get a clear idea of the total wage cost of employing older workers. I would also suggest that the re-training cost of workers above the age of 50 be fully subsidized by the Skills Development Fund, provided such workers earn less than $1,500 per month. When these two measures are implemented, the policy should be to see to it that the retirement age is raised to 60, unless the employee is certified medically unfit to continue employment beyond 55, or the employee has an adverse track record that can be substantiated. I would like to stress that instead of the current practice preferred by employers of allowing employers the option of re-employing the employees beyond the age of 55 on a year to year basis, subject to medical fitness, we should make it a policy to set the retirement age at 60 and only retire workers who are age between 55 and 60 if they are certified medically unfit. And if necessary, if all these measures do not work, then we should consider legislation in order to achieve our objective. I think it is important that we raise the age of retirement because there are many fundamental reasons for doing so. Firstly, our workers are still healthy after the age of 55. Secondly, the life expectancy has increased, requiring workers to continue working to be financially self-reliant and for them to maintain a satisfactory standard of living.”
“Sir, the subject of retirement age has, in fact, been referred to earlier. But I would like to refresh the minds of Members of this House that last year the Member for Boon Lay actually pointed out a disturbing trend in respect of our move to raise the retirement age. He said that while we made progress in the 10-year period from 1972-74 compared to 1982-84, we seemed to have been sliding behind in 1986. And he quoted a report of the SNEF for 1987 which showed that whilst the number of collective agreements had specified retirement at age of 60 was 21% for the 1982-84 period, it had fallen to 14.1%. The Minister last year then cautioned against taking the SNEF's results because of the small sample, but he promised to look at the figures more closely. I am glad that his Ministry did more than just that. They have done a complete analysis of the collective agreements concluded for the three years 1985 to 1987, and the result shows that 16.7% of the collective agreements specified 60 years as the retirement age. So compared to the previous three-year period which had 21%, it has been a fall. This confirms that there has been a regression in the past three years, as compared to the preceding three years. Sir, in view of the fact that Government has indicated as early as 1980 that it wanted the retirement age in the private sector to be raised to 60, we do not seem to making much progress. Employers, in general, resist raising the retirement age because it would mean, in their words, retaining "deadwood", and accommodating "falling performance". And earlier the Member for Cairnhill said "for lower productivity and higher cost." Because of this attitude, employers have taken the line of refusing to discuss the subject at collective agreement negotiations.”
“When times are better, workers should be paid more, if times are bad, the wage cost could be reduced. And so long as there is economic growth, it is only fair that workers be given their fair share. Wage increases for the year should not be limited merely to the 2% service increment. One should look at the total wage increase for the year, the service increment and increases in other payments, including bonus and other wage benefits and these total wage increases should reflect economic growth and preferably lag behind productivity growth.”
“Sir, the next subject I wish to raise is wage reform. I wish to ask the Minister to update the House on the progress of wage reform. It has been well over a year since the NWC recommendations were published. A number of wage reform agreements have been concluded and information on such agreements have been circulated by the NTUC to its affiliated unions, as examples for the rest to follow. At the same time, the Singapore National Employers Federation (SNEF), has published a book of such cases and this book is readily available in our bookshops. Another book, giving practical steps to working out wage reform systems, written by a Personnel Manager has recently been published by the Singapore Institute of Management. With such guides there is no reason why other companies are unable to work out their own systems. The feedback from unionists on the slow progress, in cases under negotiation, reveals two main problems. The first is that managements have adopted a mind set over the 2% service increment. They treat this rigidly as the maximum increment to be paid for a year, irrespective of the circumstances. This attitude is unreasonable. The second problem is the unwillingness of some employers to consider a planned process of building up the flexible bonus, even when the productivity model is being discussed. Other employers seem unconcerned with the need to build up the flexible bonus to act as a buffer against a future recession. I think we are missing one of the main reasons for wage reform. Sir, managements should not take wage reform as a tool to keep the wages low. Apparently, there are some employers who think that that is what wage reform is all about. Wage reform is really to devise a system that can re-act to the economic situation.”
“The tight labour market will force employers to use labour more efficiently and to further upgrade. There is a worry, however, that there may be adverse effects on economic growth if factories and businesses cannot deliver their commitments because of the labour shortage. I wish to ask the Minister what plans he has to obtain a balance in the supply and demand of labour. And would he take steps to protect our lower income workers and encourage the employment of older workers? Sir, for the long term, the picture has already been drawn by Prof. Saw Swee Hock in his book "New Population and Labour Force Projections and Policy Implications for Singapore". The increase in our labour force will slow down in the next decade. If we are successful in attracting more investments, then we will have pressure on the labour supply. If we do not succeed in encouraging more births, the slowdown will be faster. It is therefore in the employers' interest to support Government's policy of encouraging more births. Whatever the outcome, it is clear that we have to, first, be more efficient in using labour; second, raise the retirement age; third, encourage greater participation of women in the workforce. On the second and third points, I will have more to say later.”
“Sir, I beg to move, That the total sum to be allocated for Head R of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100. First, on the question of labour supply and demand. There are two aspects to this question, the short-term and the long-term. I shall first deal with the short term. Sir, I was pleasantly surprised to find from the Economic Survey of Singapore that the unemployment rate had fallen from 4.6% in June 1987 to 2.8% in December 1987. This indicates that we have a tight labour market. Further evidence of this is shown by the number of persons on the live register of the Employment Service Department. The number on the live register fell to a record low of 5,703 in December 1987, compared to a peak of 10,455 in September 1985. Examination of the statistics revealed that the number on the live register began to fall sharply from the middle of last year, from 9,405 in May 1987 to 5,703 in December 1987. While the number on the live register fell to a record low, the number of vacancies notified by employers rose to a record high of 48,633 for 1987. It was during the second half of last year that employers began to complain of severe difficulties in recruiting workers and requested for a liberalization of work permit controls. The latest unemployment rate therefore indicates a very tight labour market which may be aggravated by new investments that come on stream. From one point of view, this is a happy situation. We had taken the right measures for the economic recession and we have now restored job security. There is less room for employers to exploit workers and workers at this present moment are not that concerned about retrenchment. It will also be easier for workers to obtain reasonable wage increases this year.”
“Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon( In Mandarin): Sir, I think whether the Minister agrees with me or not perhaps can be judged by whether there will be more funds to be allotted in future. But obviously in this year's allocation, the Government does not allot more funds to be invested in the provisions of facilities in the fields of culture and arts. Mr Wong Kan Seng( In Mandarin): Sir, the Government cannot every year in the Budget allot a large sum of funds for developing the infrastructure of new facilities. For instance, to build a cultural theatre or centre it needs a lot of time for considering, planning and implementing the project and large sums of money to provide for various basic outlays and to provide for the various supplementary facilities. It is not just a matter of allocation of $10 million or $20 million to achieve the target overnight. I believe when our Second Deputy Prime Minister as the Chairman of the advisory council on arts and culture meets with his council later, they will consider any new facilities proposed. Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon( In Mandarin): In view of the Minister's promising reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.”
“Therefore, in the schools, there is a limited supply of qualified teachers professionally trained in the teaching of arts and music. In this respect, I hope that there would be some coordination with the Ministry of Education to improve the situation so that schools will pay more attention to and there will be more teachers professionally trained in the fields of music and arts. That will also help our people to develop and raise their standard in artistic tastes. Mr Wong Kan Seng( In Mandarin): I do not agree with what the Member for Yuhua has said that the Government has not done enough in the field of culture or art. As we all know, in the past three years, the Government has exerted much effort in promoting our culture. This is what everybody would know. As regards our facilities for culture and arts, whether they are enough or not, I would say that we have certain facilities here. We have the Victoria Concert Hall, Drama Centre, the Kallang Theatre and the Singapore Conference Hall. After two to three years later we will have a Singapore indoor stadium. Then we will have more facilities or sites for the activities for our cultural organizations. As regards encouraging private organizations or bodies to take part in arts and culture, under the Cultural Foundation and Ministry of Education, we have certain items or programmes to help them carrying out or promoting cultural or artistic activities. In respect of schools, there are art and music elective subjects and in most schools there are music bands or choirs and so on. I believe the Ministry of Education and my Ministry are cooperating very well so that in this field we will be doing much better than some 10 to 15 years ago. Therefore, I do not agree with what the Member for Yuhua has said.”
“Although the allocation for MCD's main estimates has been increased a little bit for the coming financial year, in the development estimates for facilities and more places for cultural and artistic activities, I do not see anything being allotted. I hope the Minister will look into the question of improvement of facilities soonest possible so that the performing arts and other cultural activities can be better catered for so that workers in this field can show and develop their talents. On the next point, when we encourage private organizations and individuals to take part in cultural activities we should also provide some financial aids for them. We can also encourage them to invest in culture by buildings theatres, music halls and arts galleries. We can give them some tax concession also. The next matter is about a cultural fund or foundation. Since the Cultural Fund was set up in December 1978 the funds it has given out for training or as aids were not enough because only 42 cultural or artistic workers have got any assistance. I hope the Government will encourage and provide more funds for the artists and cultural workers to go overseas for studying to raise their standards. Cultural organizations should also be given more funds and aids to improve their facilities and activities. Another point is about school education where children's interest in arts and culture can be nurtured. In schools among the subjects taught the emphasis is not on arts and music but science, as a matter of Education policy. Those who are interested in arts and music usually lack in principle subjects, therefore could not be recruited by the Government to be trained as teachers.”
“I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. 3.26 pm Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of Code JF 1000 of the Main Estimates. I want to touch upon the promotion of cultural activities and the facilities. We all know recently there have been calls for the various private organizations and individuals to help working towards the building of a more gracious society or one with more cultural atmosphere. In the past the Government and the private organizations have done something and exerted some effort towards a cultural society. But I feel that it is still not enough, particularly by the Government. Firstly, as regards facilities Culture and arts cannot be built up overnight. If we just shout slogans but not follow up with actual planning or actions, it will hardly lead to any result. Not long ago, the Member for Jurong had also mentioned about this. At the moment there are only two theatres of some standing for performing arts. One is Kallang Theatre converted from a cinema, therefore the audio effect is not ideal, the other is Victoria Memorial Hall. They are not very ideal and there are only limited seats available. Every year about 80% of the time for these two theatres have been made use of by Government organizations or semi-government organizations. Only 20% of the time are being made use of by the private organizations. In other words, cultural activists and artists do not have sufficient places for their performing arts and activities.”
“We will be sending these people to the Ministry of Community Development as he requests. I am very happy that the Minister has announced an increase in the public assistance rates from the 1st April.”
“Sir, the Minister has clarified that the cases referred to his Ministry by the HDB were those of arrears in rentals. I think, speaking for the Town Council, Ang Mo Kio West, we will be referring to him a few hundred cases of those in arrears of service and conservancy charge of more than four months. I hope he would, on the basis of his inquiry into these cases, come back to this House and tell us whether he needs to review the criteria for genuine hardship.”
“I am sure that the Minister, after reviewing all the cases that are referred to him, would be able to come back to this House and tell us that there is, in fact, a need to review the criteria for genuine hardship cases and the level of support that we should give to those who are genuinely facing financial difficulties. I would like the Minister therefore to state in this House what is the current criteria for the definition of genuine hardship cases and whether he has any intention to review the criteria.”
“Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of Code JE 1000 of the Main Estimates. Sir, in moving this amendment, I really want to ask the Minister to persuade the First Deputy Prime Minister to set up a task force to look into the problems of the lower-income group. He has already given a reply. It is negative. I can assure him that the Backbenchers will come back again in this House at a future date. Therefore, I will turn to the subject proper which is on public assistance. I think that no debate in the Committee of Supply on this Head will be complete without a call from the Backbench for a review of the quantum of public assistance. I would like once again to ask the Minister to consider reviewing the quantum of public assistance. In this respect, I would like to add that from my experience in managing the town council for the past 1(r) years or so, we have come across a particular problem which has somewhat been reflected in the debate on the Ministry of National Development. It is the problem of people in arrears of their service and conservancy charges. The numbers are high and the HDB has been forced to take legal action to try to recover the arrears owed by the residents. Although the HDB may have referred only 29 cases, and this would, I believe, include arrears in rentals, to the Ministry of Community Develpment for assessment of their need for assistance, I think the number still outstanding is quite large. And although the Minister has said that his officers have been very effective in getting people to pay up, I am sure that underlying the problem, there is, in fact, a large number of people who may need assistance from the State.”