S Jayakumar
Singapore
“It is well and good for countries to announce various targets and emissions. But one vexing issue ultimately is: what will be the method for verifying compliance with each country's announced measures? Another vexing issue, of course, is the issue of financing.”
“I would appreciate it if she were to give me some specifics of the negative feedback. But the general feedback I have had about our judiciary, both of the Supreme Court and the Subordinate Courts, has been nothing but positive.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the information that I have is that there is always medical advice present when caning is administered and that if the medical opinion is that caning cannot proceed beyond a certain point, that medical opinion will be observed and the caning will not proceed.”
“Mr Liang Eng Hwa asked the Minister for Transport in view of the recent announcement to make immediate improvements to the public transport system (a) whether the Ministry has set a timeline for the increase in frequency of feeder bus services; and (b) whether the Ministry can immediately target such services that are currently running at…”
“SCDF will continue to work with HDB and other relevant agencies to ensure that such older buildings with one exit staircase meet the prevailing fire safety requirements when they undergo major renovation or upgrading works. CIVIL SERVICE PENSIONERS 3.”
“The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Community Development, Youth and Sports (Mr Teo Ser Luck) (for the Minister for Community Development, Youth and Sports): Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I would like to take Mrs Jessie Phua's and Dr Lim Wee Kiak's questions together as they both relate to the same issues.”
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“Mr Chairman, Sir, may I finish without interruption?”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, first to deal with the point raised by the Member for Potong Pasir about Mr Chia Thye Poh. If he feels very strongly about this, then I suggest that he raise this at the appropriate occasion. It was done by the former Member for Anson. A full reply was given and I can give him the reference, 31st August 1985. A comprehensive answer was given together with documents listing out --- Mr Chiam See Tong rose”
“To summarize, the Police will continue to give information but it must leave the different Government departments and statutory boards to make the decision as to whether a person is or is not suitable for any particular job based on information supplied to them. I do not think that the Police should arrogate to themselves the decision of the suitability for the job.”
“If I were to summarize, basically the information is given to selected Government organizations and to a few statutory boards, and very rarely it is given to the private sector, except for certain companies which, because of the sensitivity of their work such as petroleum companies, we need to ensure that the persons who work there are persons whose integrity cannot be suspect. The point made by the Member is that the Police ought to take on the role of determining whether information sought is or is not relevant. I do not agree, Sir. How would the Police determine whether a person who has been convicted of child molesting, whether this information ought or ought not to be given to a potential employer? It is up to the potential employer to decide; eg, in the Government service, it would be whether a person who has been convicted of embezzlement should or should not be employed in a position in Government? One might conclude, yes. Or one might conclude, no, if he is to work in the Board of Commissioners of Currency. These are decisions which are to be taken by the potential employer. But what the Criminal Record Office does is to make this information available to selected Government departments and it is for them to decide. So it is wrong for the Member to say that, in all cases, persons who have records are never employed. As pointed out by the Minister for Finance in a previous answer, and I quote: 'It is not the policy of Government to keep convicted persons out of employment in the public sector and an enlightened policy is adopted towards convicted persons who apply for jobs.' And he went on to explain the details.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, I will be brief because we are approaching guillotine time and quite a number of other items have still not yet been raised. The Member for Jalan Kayu, if I could summarize him, has raised two points. One, a broad position or principle which is that in his view we should do more to enable those who have been convicted and have served imprisonment for various crimes to fit in to the society, to get jobs and to lead a straight path. The second is a specific point which is whether we should review the system of supplying information on criminal records to either the public sector or the private sector. On a general point, I would like to mention to him that this was more than adequately covered by the Minister for Community Development on 22nd September 1986 when he responded to an Adjournment motion made by the then Member for Anson. I think he gave a very comprehensive reply as to all the steps that had been taken by Government and voluntary organizations to assist convicted persons to lead a straight path. I would not therefore, by incorporation, repeat whatever the Minister for Community Development said on that occasion. I will now proceed to his specific point. Here too I would like to point out that on several occasions in 1983 and 1985, both the Minister for Finance on behalf of the Ministry of Finance and I on behalf of the Ministry of Home Affairs had outlined the instances where we gave information on criminal records.”
“But there is no doubt about it, both the Police and the Ministry are convinced that, with limited manpower, this is the way we should go.”
“The second example is that such computerization will enable records to be kept of all persons who are wanted or, to use the euphemistic phrase, who are "of interest to the Police." Likewise, it will capture information on all vehicles which are reported stolen or needed for investigation. The third example, Sir, of the benefits that will accrue from computerization is that the system will also provide instantly a list of incidents of the same type that occur within a certain area in a specified time. Members can imagine how valuable such information will be to Police operations. This system is expected to be fully completed in mid-1988. Another aspect of computerization which has already been approved concerns the CID computerization. There are two aspects that I would like to draw Members' attention. First is the upgrading of CID's criminal history modules, ie, to computerize and upgrade our record of criminals, for this will help speedier investigation work. This was commenced in 1985 and is expected to be completed sometime later this year, hopefully in September. The second aspect of this computerization is to keep track of what we call the case management module. It will keep track of the investigation of cases of interest to the Police and this will result in better management of investigations and will provide clues to investigators based on information which is captured. The requirements have been finalized and the development is to begin soon. We hope that this will be completed in mid-1988. As I mentioned, Sir, there are other areas also being looked into and once our requirements have been finalized, these will be taken up with the relevant authorities so that we can get a further headstart on computerization for the Ministry.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, I take the point made by the Member for Clementi, which is that law enforcement and crime combatting cannot be effectively carried out without modern technology and computerization. The Police as well as the Ministry realize this and for this reason they have embarked on computerization of key areas. Some are still in the process of finalization of studies of the detailed requirements and some areas have already been embarked on. The areas which have been identified, Sir, are the following: (1) A computer system for command and control of patrol resources, operational aspects. (2) The requirements for new traffic police computer system. (3) The possibility of computerizing automated identification of fingerprints. (4) A crime information system to keep track of crime statistics and trends. I do not propose to go into the details of areas which are still being studied because, in fairness, we will have to take these matters up with the Ministry of Finance and we must allow them to give their views on the matter. But I would like to spend a few minutes, Sir, to speak on areas which have already been embarked on so that the House will have an idea of how computerization will help the Police in transforming the nature of their operations. First, let me refer to the command and control system which has already been embarked on and is being implemented. This computerization of command and control will greatly enhance Police operations in several respects. Let me give three examples. The first example is that it will enable the Police to instantly monitor the status of all patrol cars and therefore have the ability to recommend the best patrol car at any one time for despatch to an incident. This means faster response.”
“The Member will recall that in 1984 we made major amendments to criminal law statutes to enhance the penalties and even to provide for minimum sentences. It will take a few years before we see the effectiveness of these measures. A continuing review is carried out. But what is the most effective deterrent? Legislation and tough penalties have their purpose. But the best deterrent, Sir, is certainty of detection and apprehension of the criminal. This is why it is important to get the public to cooperate and give their support to the Police - the greater the public cooperation, the greater the certainty of detection.”
“Sir, another interesting figure is that snatch thefts have come down, 19.2%. This again shows the impact of public spiritedness and the publicity which has been given to members of the public who helped the Police in catching such people. What is the problem area? Of all the problem areas, one which we will have to tackle and pay particular attention to in the future would be that of lift robberies. This is one area which has gone up, and it has gone up 37% compared to 1985. 98% of the lift robberies last year were committed in HDB areas. The majority, about 62%, were committed during the day and the majority of the victims were women. Sir, when we talk about lift robberies, this is an area which can also be tackled by cooperation and vigilance on the part of the public and their cooperation with the Police is essential. Basic do's and don'ts have been publicized in the press and on television. If all residents, particularly women, were aware of the do's and don'ts, such as not to enter lifts with total strangers, then we would be able to cut down the incidents of lift robbery. Neighbourhood Watch Groups (NWG) and grassroots leaders can also help by reporting immediately suspicious persons loitering in corridors, stairways and void decks. For example, in 1985, Neighbourhood Watch Group members and six residents in one constituency caught a lift robber. In other words, to summarize, of interest to residents in public housing areas, there has been a breakthrough. Housebreaking has come down. Snatch thefts have come down. We must now join hands in tackling the question of lift robberies. Finally, Sir, about review of legislation. This is constantly being done.”
“For example, the number of Police recruits having four '0' levels or more - in 1981, they were 60.7% of the recruits; in 1986 it was 94.3% of the recruits. This is important because as we launch and press on with community-oriented policing, we need Police officers who are intelligent, able to communicate with the Police, able to explain as well as deal with members of the public on law-abiding, explain situations to them, explain the rules to them, and also Police officers who will brook no nonsense and deal swiftly with the law breakers. Now I go on to the point raised by the Member about statistics on crime. I do not intend to go over all the ground which has been covered in public because the Police have, and I think it is a good idea on their part, regularly briefed the press on key crime statistics. What I intend to do is to highlight some of the encouraging areas and at the same time point out at least one area which will be of interest to Members of the House. First, the areas which are encouraging. Sir, when we compare 1985 figures with 1986, I am glad to report that housebreaking figures came down by 17.1%. What is even more encouraging is that housebreaking in public residential areas came down by 14.1%. I think this is very significant considering that 86% of our population are in public housing. The credit goes to both Police as well as the public. The fact that housebreaking has come down, and has come down in public housing estates, shows, to my mind, the impact of all the crime prevention measures which the Police have carried out over the years. It shows the impact of the NPPs, it shows the impact of the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme and, overall, it shows greater crime prevention consciousness on the part of the Police and the public.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, I am grateful for the Member asking further questions as it enables me to complete my response to his earlier intervention. Sir, I said that there were three pillars and the third pillar will be the optimum use of limited manpower. We will always have crime in Singapore. Our job is to keep it under control, to reduce it, and to apprehend the offenders. The Police cannot be everywhere at every time, which means that we will have to find ways and means of maximizing and making optimum use of our limited manpower. In this context, we have to remind ourselves that we can expect the number of reports of offences to increase because, judging from the experience of our Neighbourhood Police Post in almost every area where a Neighbourhood Police Post has been established, more reports have been forthcoming, which is an indication that the public are more encouraged to report offences with the establishment of the NPP. In this regard, Sir, I want to mention that manpower management consultants at the moment are working very closely with the Police to see how manpower can be best utilised. Specifically, there is one objective, and that is, to deploy the existing manpower so that a greater percentage will be involved in front-line duties. At the moment, this is 60% of the Force and the objective is to increase it to 69% with no increase in manpower. Also, Sir, the use of modern technology and computerization will be resorted to, wherever possible, with the objective of ensuring speedy communication, speedy response and speedy investigation. Finally, still on manpower. Police must and will continue to recruit good recruits to join the Force. I am happy to say that over the years they have been successful.”
“Sir, do I have 10 minutes or more, as Minister, to reply?”
“The second pillar for the Police's strategy will be the strengthening of CID's capability. This is the other side of the coin, Sir. Community-oriented policing means that we reach out to the majority of the population who are law-abiding and harness their support to deal with the minority who are criminals. When it comes to the minority of criminals, that is where the CID comes into play. There will be a no-nonsense and professional approach in dealing with the law-breakers who give trouble to the majority of the population. May I mention now, Sir, some aspects which have already been embarked on by the Police. First, plans have been worked with manpower consultants to strengthen key components, namely, the Special Investigation Section and the Criminal Intelligence Unit of the CID. Secondly, areas where computerization will aid CID's work, this will be done. Later when there is a move to cut one of the Subheads on computerization, perhaps I will have an opportunity to elaborate. Third, CID's structure has been revamped from four Divisions to six Divisions this year and will facilitate command and control. Finally, upgrading of equipment. A separate radio network for CID has become operational since August 1986 and this will enable CID to have a better control of its operations.”
“An independent study was conducted in Toa Payoh Division by two university academicians, Dr John Quah and Stella Quah, who made an evaluation study of the NPP in that area. Some of the highlights of the study are: The level of friendly contact between the public and the Police rose by 12%. Crime prevention awareness increased by almost 10% after the NPPs were inaugurated. The level of complete trust in the Police went up by 44 percentage points. In almost every NPP that we have established, the number of reports which have been filed of various offences has increased. Clearly, Sir, the Neighbourhood Police Post system has heightened Police presence and succeeded in getting participation from the public and we are well on our road to harnessing public cooperation. The second instrument in building this pillar of community-oriented policing will be the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme. It was launched in 1981 to increase crime prevention awareness amongst residents and we now have Neighbourhood Watch Groups in nearly all constituencies. What will be the future directions of the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme? The Police, Sir, will consider how the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme can be made more active than what it is now for, at the moment, we can describe it as a passive scheme where each neighbour keeps an eye on his neighbours in the immediate vicinity. We will see whether we can make it more active in approach. Second, the Police will concentrate on the development of the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme, particularly in crime-prone areas. Thirdly, the Police will also involve the NPP system in coordination and in the consolidation of the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme. In other words, the NPP system will have a link with the Neighbourhood Watch Groups.”
“But, Sir, a major breakthrough and a significant turnaround has taken place in respect of the public support and cooperation with the Police. I would ask Members to consider just two statistics. First, the arrests which have been made by the Police as a result of information and other assistance given by the public. In 1985, there were 592 such arrests. In 1986, one year later, it rose dramatically to 2,476 cases, more than 400% increase. Next figure is the arrests and apprehension which were made by members of the public themselves. In 1985, this was 177. It shot up in 1986 to 1,159. These figures are telling and they tell us a story. One could not imagine that 10-15 years ago, we would have such a level of cooperation and support from the public. Not only members of the public are willing to assist the Police and cooperate, they are even willing to come forward, participate in commendation ceremonies and be photographed. It shows a high level of confidence and trust in the Police. The Police's strategy, therefore, is to build on this as the cornerstone of our law enforcement strategy because public cooperation, Sir, is the biggest deterrent that we can have in fighting crime. How do we build on this? There will be two main instruments - the Neighbourhood Police Post (NPP) system and the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme. With regard to the Neighbourhood Police Post, the mere fact that so many Members of Parliament have filed questions in the past week asking when they can have their NPPs, I think, speaks for itself, including the Member for Jalan Kayu. The question raised by the Member for Clementi is: has the NPP system been successful? I am glad to inform Members that it is successful. How do we know this?”
“Sir, I welcome the approach taken by the Chairman of the GPC for Home Affairs who said that he would concentrate on broad policy areas and on strategy rather than be bogged down by details. I think the best way I could express my appreciation is also to respond in a way which focuses on the broad policy approach to be taken by the Police and the strategy for law enforcement and crime prevention. In dealing with the points raised by the Member for Clementi and Chairman of the GPC, perhaps I could start by outlining what are the main pillars of the Police's law enforcement strategy and then speak about the crime situation which he wanted some information. For the coming years, there would be three main pillars on which the Police's law enforcement strategy would be built. The first pillar would be the system of community-oriented policing. The second will be strengthening the capability of the CID, and third, would be maximizing and optimizing the limited manpower, and I would like to spend a few minutes to speak on each of these three main pillars. First, community policing. Community policing will be the cornerstone of the Police's law enforcement strategy. This is because we cannot expect crime prevention to be described in terms of the criminal on one side and the Police on the other side. We would approach it in this way - the criminal on one side and, on the other side, the Police together with members of the public. Community- oriented policing was mentioned by the Member for Clementi and he asked whether this policy of harnessing the support and cooperation of the public is successful. Is it working? The answer is, Sir, yes, it is working. We may be Asians and traditionally reticent in openly identifying ourselves with the law enforcement agency.”
“Sir, I rose to make one correction, and that is, the Member for Potong Pasir had misquoted the Prime Minister. That was the only reason I rose to make sure that this misquotation of the Prime Minister does not get off scot-free. Whether he wants the papers to flatter him or not, I leave it to the newspapers.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is a world of difference. It is a position of principle. The Singapore Government maintains a position of principle - that where Government policies are misrepresented, inaccurately reported or distorted by any publication, whether in Singapore or outside, the Government, as a matter of principle, insists that they should publish a right of reply. In the debate which took place a few days ago, the Member for Potong Pasir appeared to imply that the local press misquoted him or misreported him. He said the Prime Minister said the same position of principle which we adhere to, we would support if he wanted to adopt that as a principle also with regard to any publication, whether in Singapore or outside. It is a position of principle.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was present when the Prime Minister spoke and, if I remember correctly, what the Prime Minister said was that the same right that we insist of replying to the Asian Wall Street Journal, we would also support the right of the Member for Potong Pasir. If he sought to exercise that right, we would support him. That is all that was said.”
“Because he is misquoting the Prime Minister. The Chairman: Mr Chiam, will you allow the clarification to be made? Mr Chiam See Tong resumed his seat.”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, can I seek a point of clarification?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I take the point of the Member for Pasir Panjang. As I said, there is no immediate plan for resettlement. But in view of what he has said, I will ask the officials concerned to have another look at the matter. [Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair] HOUGANG AVENUE 2 (Pedestrian overhead bridges) 2. Mr Ng Kah Ting asked the Minister for National Development whether and when pedestrian overhead bridges will be built at Hougang Avenue 2.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to pre-empt my colleague, the Minister for Communications and Information, but I cannot resist this. Surely the newspapers will give headlines when what he said is worthy of a headline. Some hon. Members: Yes.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I asked two questions. Has he been misrepresented or denied any coverage of what he says in Parliament in SBC's nightly telecast? And, if so, has he written in to the SBC?”
“I want to know when. Mr Chiam See Tong: Please, you accept my word for it. Are you doubting that I have not filed a complaint? I think the Clerk here will bear me out. Please, do not say such things. I have done it, please. As far as I know, the credibility of the press in Singapore is very much dented. The Member for Bukit Timah, I believe, said that some kind of statistics have been taken on the credibility of the press in America. I think it is a good idea if we have one such poll taken of our local press. Because as far as I know, amongst the people I have talked to, or at least in the last general elections, they preferred to attend Opposition rallies than to read in the press of what had been said. This is to show the credibility of the press. As regards the Government radio, I think more people are now listening in to BBC, and I think the Government has done a really good thing in allowing the BBC to broadcast from Singapore. And I think if a poll is taken, you will find that more people are tuning in to the BBC than to our local radio.”
“Sir, may I know when was the complaint filed before the Privileges Committee? Because we have not seen a report.”
“Sir, may we know what are the other steps he has taken to make sure that his viewpoint has been brought to the attention of the Singapore public?”
“Or what took place? Has he written to the press to give his side of the story?”
“If the press in Singapore has misrepresented him or has not correctly reported him, has he written in to give his version of what he thinks ought to have been reported correctly?”
“Sir, may I ask a question of the Member for Potong Pasir?”
“Is it true that the Gurkhas are guarding the Prime Minister's residence? It is true. Is it true that they are the only ones who are guarding the Prime Minister's residence? The answer is no. And beyond that, I think it will be stupid for any Member of the House to ask me more details of any of the other protective and security measures. OVERTIME PAY (Exemption from CPF) 11. Mr Chiam See Tong asked the Minister for Labour whether he will exempt Central Provident Fund contributions on overtime pay.”
“He wants to know the key areas. Mr Speaker, Sir, I think it is both foolhardy and dangerous for me, as the Minister in charge of security, to openly divulge and discuss the security and protective measures which I have put in place for both local and foreign VIPs and vital installations in Singapore. We will be only playing into the hands of trouble makers, crackpots, saboteurs, arsonists and assassins.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I have already given the reasons for the presence of the Gurkhas. Whether we are independent or not is irrelevant. There are other independent countries which also employ Gurkhas, both developing and developed countries. As to whether this reflects on the confidence of the Police, let me say that I have posed the question to my Commissioner of Police. I have asked him that, as a professional police officer and as the Commissioner of Police, what was his response to the question Mr Chiam had posed, and which I had anticipated. His view was categoric. He said to me that he would not recommend the dismantling of the Gurkha Contingent now or in the near future. As to whether their presence in Singapore affects the confidence or the morale of the Police, again his answer was categorically no. The morale of the Police Force is in no way affected because they are here for special reasons and everyone knows it.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, both as a Singaporean and as a member of the Government, I am very proud of our own Police Force and have absolute confidence in them. And I think we all can have confidence in them. The question really is: when we have had, since the 1940s, the presence in Singapore of the world's toughest and best fighters as part of our law enforcement team, do we now pack them off, or should we keep them here for the reasons that I have given, to augment our Police Force? I think the answer is obvious. It is in our interest to keep them for so long as we can get them and for so long as they are prepared to be here.”
“Sir, the Gurkhas are thus neutral and impartial implementors of the law and are regarded as such. In the event of any communal tension, their very presence would have both a deterrent as well as a calming and reassuring effect on all racial groups.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Member for Potong Pasir looks at the provisions in the Budget, it will be clear to him that National Defence has got no provision for Gurkhas. And the Gurkhas are here not as part of the Armed Forces but as members of the Police Force for purposes of internal security and law and order. Sir, there are two reasons why we have Gurkhas in Singapore. The first reason is that they have a well-established reputation for toughness, alertness, mental and physical resilience in adversity and for total dependability, self-discipline, utter loyalty and fearlessness in the execution of their duties. They obey their orders to the end and do not deviate from instructions given to them. These qualities have stood the test of time and have won them world -wide acclaim. The Gurkhas have been in Singapore since 1949. Our experience is that secret society gangsters and all other criminals in Singapore have a healthy respect for the Gurkhas. They are not only known to be tough and fearless in enforcing the law but, because they are not part of Singaporean society, they are not so vulnerable to intimidation, influence and corruption. The second reason is that they have a record for complete impartiality when serving in a multi-racial society. This is especially valuable in any communal situation where tensions may be high and violence can flare up. A Gurkha will obey orders and keep the peace regardless of which racial group is causing the trouble. All racial groups know that the Gurkhas will brook no nonsense from anyone and will side with no one in establishing peace and order. Their effectiveness in performing this role has been proven in the racial riots of the 1950s and the 1960s.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, first, may I have clarification from the Member for Potong Pasir. Since his question refers to provision for expenditure on national defence, do I take it that the question he is asking really is: why provisions for national defence include provision for Gurkhas, and why is it that Gurkhas form part of our Armed Forces? Can I take it that that is his question?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I am aware of the representation made by the Member in respect of Montfort School. Of course, we will not be able to resolve the specific case here in this House. But if in that particular case it can be shown to the Ministry and to the Land Office that the existing site is indeed needed for expansion of another school and if that has the support of the Ministry of Education, my Ministry will indeed give it the most serious consideration. UNSOLD HDB FLATS (Particulars) 5. Dr Wong Kwei Cheong asked the Minister for National Development (a) how many completed Housing and Development Board flats were unsold as at the latest convenient date; (b) how many of them had been unsold for more than one year; (c) what is the total cost of all these unsold flats; (d) what plans the HDB has to sell the flats; and (e) what is the number of new flats to be built in 1987.”
“One final point, Sir. The Member for Potong Pasir in the Committee never made a request for Mr Jeyaretnam to be called, to be heard in person, either on the charge or on the penalty. I also refer him to page 172 of Erskine May which says: 'In some cases the House, after agreeing to the report, has then proceeded to adjudge the offender guilty of a breach of privilege or of a contempt ... This step, however, is unnecessary in cases where the committee has reported that, in its opinion, the person implicated has been guilty of a breach of the privileges of the House, or of an offence which amounts on the face of it to a breach of privilege.' And there has been no hearing.”
“--- for the previous Member for Anson to have a right to be heard in this House before this House inflicts the penalty of a fine. Now I refer the Member for Potong Pasir to page 171 of Erskine May. I read: 'If the committee reports that a serious breach of privilege has been committed, the House usually proceeds to consider the kind or degree of punishment which it would be proper to inflict on the offender.' Then I refer him to page 175: 'A Member not yet adjudged guilty of contempt may return to his place [this of course is talking of Members who are still Members of the House] when debate on his conduct has been adjourned, but it is otherwise if he has been adjudged guilty, even though debate on the question of the punishment to be inflicted on him has been adjourned.' And a precedent is cited therein. And I quote the precedent: 'A request, made through another Member, that a Member who had been adjudged guilty of a contempt, but whose punishment had not been determined upon, might be heard in his place has not been acceded to.' I repeat: 'A request, made through another Member, that a Member who had been adjudged guilty of a contempt, but whose punishment had not been determined upon, might be heard in his place has not been acceded to.' What more of a person who has ceased to be a Member?”
“But where the opinion expresses a view that this House is deviating from a particular procedure or has not followed what the Member considers to be a proper procedure, then the question arises from that Member's opinion, what is the proper procedure? The implication of what the Member for Potong Pasir has said is that there is a proper procedure which calls ---”
“The Member for Potong Pasir, like all Members, of course, has a right to express an opinion.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, this authority referred to is Erskine May in the Chapter on Committal to Prison. May I ask, where is the authority for the proposition that before the Committee can impose a fine or the House can impose punishment or fine for contempt, we must call the Member or the former Member before us in this House? Where is this precedent?”
“May I ask which particular proposition on page 125 is he relying on?”
“Could he tell us which authority or which page of Erskine May this authority is referred to? And what is the proposition of law concerning hearing that this Australian case is authority for?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, we are deadly serious. If it is alleged that we have not followed the law and if he can give us the precedent, we will follow the law. The Member for Potong Pasir said that he thought he saw a precedent, an Australian case ---”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, since we are quite early in the stage of our proceedings today, perhaps we can take a ten-minute adjournment for the Member for Potong Pasir to come up with a precedent if he wants to avail himself of the time.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I also point out that it is very convenient to say, when at a loss for argument, that the point is a moot point. The question is: was the contempt by Mr Jeyaretnam committed when he was a stranger, or was it committed when he was a Member of Parliament? If it was committed when he was a Member of Parliament, section 20 applies. If it was committed when he was a stranger, then section 20(3) applies. Quite clearly, it was committed when he was a Member of Parliament.”
“Could he produce authorities such as Erskine May to show us that this is so in Parliamentary practice in the United Kingdom or elsewhere?”