Seah Kian Peng
Singapore
“I thank the Senior Minister of State for his reply. Just a few supplementary questions. Given the decline in volume and given that I can understand SingPost having their challenges, how does the Ministry ensure that there is no degradation of services that are provided by SingPost?”
“Yet, violence, domination, pain, harm and abuse also occur within the walls of a family. We need to be vigilant and sensitive in our approach. Hard rules and automatic application of these rules are a poor response to the challenges that we face today.”
“Both parents and schools have a role to play in shaping our children in the way they should go and I agree with Mr Don Wee that it is important for families to have open conversations about these matters.”
“Just a quick supplementary question for the Senior Minister of State. First, I must say I am surprised but happy that the number of cases has gone down. Having said that, we need to also pay attention to the number of unreported cases. Personally, I am sure we have heard from many residents who come to us for these cases.”
“Second, we propose to put in place new processes to prevent the misuse of the MPA by parents who have abandoned, abused or neglected their children and did not fulfil their parental duties. In so doing, we also protect and spare their children from unnecessary distress.”
“The way we feed ourselves will not be the same. The way we live and the way we work will also be different – telemedicine, work from home, online learning and the need for insurance. But there are other things which will remain the same – resilience, unity, and a single-minded commitment to our joint future.”
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Every one of 752 lines we hold for Seah Kian Peng, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 12 of 16.
“Sir, I have spoken previously on the need to ensure that national events become more green. I have also asked Government bodies, including Parliament, to make public their current carbon footprint and to declare their targets and timelines to meet these objectives. So far, other priorities must have eclipsed these suggestions because I have not seen any Government agency taking this up. I may be wrong. But, yes, I do recognise there have been at least progress on one front arising from my earlier calls. At this year’s New Year Countdown event at Marina Bay, the 20,000 plastic wishing spheres floating on the Bay had a new lease of life as bags or banners. A positive development as these 20,000 plastic balls yield some two to three tonnes of materials. In the meantime, bottled water, plastic bags, goodie bags and other disposable waste continue to be given out at most national events and appear to be the order of the day. Sir, what is the Government’s position on climate change? Do we think that man-made activities are also contributing to the severe and extreme weather conditions we see today? Whether the answer is yes or not, I think that frugality and reduction of waste are intrinsic values. Sir, I propose that for this year’s National Day Parade, let us have a pure celebration without the gimmicks of clappers and other plastic items. Let us encourage people to bring their own bags and snacks. Let us forget about bags and memorabilia. If we must have collectibles, then make sure that it goes only to collectors who perhaps can go to MICA to collect them, rather than give out thousands of widgets that eventually end up in trash cans.”
“Sir, I have a suggestion for the refinement of the Third Child Priority Scheme. Currently, only 5% of new HDB launches are reserved for those who fulfilled the Third Child Priority Scheme. All the rest are given priority to first-timers. I recognise that the needs of both groups are important. What I wish to propose to the Ministry is to consider an increase in the priority allocation to those who have more children. Sir, I have – and I am sure I am not the only MP here – residents who have three or more children telling me of their lack of success in upgrading to larger flats. This is despite their numerous attempts at both applying for flats under the DBSS and BTO schemes. Sir, a flat in Singapore is a chief prized asset of many Singaporeans. I also recognise that there are many market and economic forces at play when it comes to housing policy. But, at the same time, we have never shirked away from using the HDB flat to promote social goals such as racial integration and strong families. Sir, large families tend to be genuine buyers to provide a better environment for their families – I do not think they are out to profit. They do need more space for their household as they seek to provide a better home environment and more space for their growing children. I would thus like to ask that instead of the current 5%, a higher proportion, say, 10% of flat supply be allocated to those who qualify for the Third Child Priority Scheme. If these are not taken up, they can always be freed for others applying for such flats. Affordability and supply of flats”
“The Deputy Prime Minister mentioned that the various incentives were introduced almost two and a half years ago, and that we should give them more time before doing a review. My first supplementary question is: when will the review likely be done? Second supplementary question is: I am sure the Ministry would have much information and data to understand what are the causes for the declining TFR. Perhaps the Deputy Prime Minister could share with us what the main causes are so that the right strategies, incentives and resources can then be allocated to arrest this very complicated issue, which involves many aspects across many Ministries, be it education, housing, and so on.”
“I just want to ask the Minister a supplementary question related to IRs. I noticed of late that the IRs publicised the wins of some of their patrons. They would do something on the website which says so and so has won $x and asked them to come back or thank them for their patronage. Is that something which we would want to encourage? Is that legal? I am not sure but certainly I think this may go somewhat towards encouraging others, who may not have gone, to possibly enter these places. This is something which is of concern to me. I would like to hear the Minister's views on this.”
“Yet the two are often conflated because it is the mother who suggests the grounds on which a father may visit. A man may fight hard on this, and well he should. My point is – why need he? Why does the law not ensure that he has a reasonable amount of access that he does not have to fight for? The child is also emotionally healthier if he is allowed to maintain a relationship with the father after the divorce. Sir, I support the Bill. 4.42 pm”
“A man may no longer be a husband, but he remains a father and the duty of care does not diminish. In fact, because of the trauma of divorce on children, I argue that this duty in fact becomes weightier. Sir, it is not often that we see marriage separate from family life but they are, analytically at least, quite distinct. A man is a husband and a father, and as I have said before, when he ceases to be one, he continues in the other. Marriage is a regulatory fact that can be changed; parenthood, a biological one that is immovable. Many of the proposed amendments to the Women's Charter Bill are good and deserved to be supported from a father's perspective. However, there is one area that can be improved – a father's access to their children after a divorce. The roles of fathers have changed in the past 10, maybe, 20 years and continue to evolve. Fathers are expected not only to bring in the bacon, but to spend time nurturing their children as well. This role should not end after divorce. But the reality is that fathers generally have limited access thereafter, because of the demands from the ex-wife. I ask that the law recognises the parity of parenting in modern society and not allow the anger and frustration of a bad marriage to spill over to the right of a father to see his children. This asymmetry is all the more galling given that it is often the man who writes the cheque to support his children, but it is his wife that controls the access to the children. I do not want to suggest something as crude as a quid pro quo for maintenance payments but the end of a marriage is not an end to a father-child relationship. A man may make a bad husband but he does not automatically make a bad father.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing me time to give my views on the Women's Charter (Amendment) Bill. There are two main points I want to make: The first is a straightforward one, which addresses the impact of these amendments on the Maintenance of Parents (Amendment) Bill that had been moved at the last sitting. The second point relates to my perspective of a father and husband. Here, I should declare my interest as a board member of the Centre for Fathering – a VWO that promotes the fathering movement. Sir, as you know, the Maintenance of Parents Act was originally written in the same spirit as the claim for maintenance of wives from their ex-husbands. I am happy to see that enforcement measures in the Women's Charter have been strengthened, in particular to protect women and their dependants, who have been awarded maintenance orders against defaulters. The law proposes to order defaulters to "furnish security against any future arrears of maintenance" with a banker's guarantee, attend financial counselling and attend community service, so as to rehabilitate them. I see that the same force against defaulters would be useful under the Maintenance of Parents Act. Sir, a common principle stands behind both maintenance laws, which is that family members owe a duty of care towards one another – whether between parent and children, children and elderly parents or between spouses. This principle means that we should avoid having the state take over the basic responsibility of a family in looking after its own members. As we always say, when all else fails, the state can and should step in. In addition, we need to remind parents that as we expect children to care for us in old age, it is only fair and rational to support them well, even after a divorce.”
“The Chairman: The new clause will be inserted immediately after clause 11. Bill reported with an amendment; read a Third time and passed. ADJOURNMENT Resolved, "That Parliament do now adjourn." – [Mr Lim Swee Say]. Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes past Seven o'clock pm. WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER NOT ANSWERED BY 3.00 PM INTERIM RENTAL HOUSING SCHEME 12. Dr Lam Pin Min asked the Minister for National Development (a) if he will provide an update on the interim rental housing scheme since its introduction in 2009; (b) what is the demand from Singaporeans and how has this demand been met so far; and (c) whether the restriction of having to share the flat with another family can be waived in cases where the tenant's family size is large.”
“Madam, I beg to move, "That the clause be read a Second time". Madam, this provision is specifically for the Tribunal members who are neither civil servants nor career officers, and the Commissioner. I am proposing for this new provision not because the President or members of the Tribunal or the Commissioner had asked for it. But there had been cases of verbal abuse and accusations made against the Tribunal members and Commissioner by parties who feel they have been aggrieved by the Tribunal's decision or the Commissioner's recommendations. The President and members of the Tribunal are, for all intents and purposes, performing public service for which they are only paid a token remuneration. Moreover, they are performing a quasi judical statutory function for which they should be able to carry out fairly and impartially without fear of being sued in their personal capacities. For this reason, the provision in the Bill provides protection for the Tribunal members and the Commissioner from personal liability when discharging their duties in good faith. With the provision, it will also ensure the continued recruitment of quality senior persons for the various positions. This provision is not something new. Similar provisions can be found in other legislations, for example, the Building Maintenance and Strata Management Act, the Community Mediation Centres Act and the Films Act. In fact, the Minister Dr Vivian Balakrishnan yesterday introduced a similar provision in the Charities (Amendment) Bill to provide protection for charity board members. The reason for such a provision to be included in this Act is no less different but as compelling. Madam Chair, I beg to move. Question put and agreed to. Clause read a Second time and added to the Bill.”
“Mdm Deputy Speaker, I thank you and I beg to move. [Applause ] Question put, and agreed to. Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed to a Committee of the whole House. The House immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill. – [Mr Seah Kian Peng]. Bill considered in Committee. [Mdm Deputy Speaker in the Chair] Clauses 1 to 11 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill. New Clause New section 20A The principal Act is amended by inserting, immediately after section 20, the following section: "Protection from personal liability 20A. No suit or other legal proceedings shall lie against the President or any deputy President or member of the Tribunal, or the Commissioner, for anything which is done with reasonable care and in good faith in the discharge or purported discharge of his functions or duties under this Act.". – [Mr Seah Kian Peng]. Brought up, and read the First time.”
“Sir, I take on board the criticism that these amendments still regulate with what some would contend as a light hand. But I do not think that we want to make it heavier. Rather, I echo the view put forward by several MPs including Mrs Mildred Tan and Mr Sam Tan, that the community rather than the Government, should lead the national dialogue on family. Finally, on behalf of the Workgroup, I want to thank the Minister for his support and endorsement of our proposals. We are all in this together and it is my strong conviction that with these amendments, all the stakeholders in this space will be the better for it. Certainly, the parties that come before this Act and by that I refer to both the elderly parents and the adult children where they are deserving, they will all be better served. Sir, I like to end by thanking all the Members who have spoken in support of the Bill and for many others who have not spoken but expressed their support to me and to my Workgroup members informally. In the course of today's debate, many Members have shared personal and touching stories which showed the need for this amendment Bill. At the same time, it also illustrated the complexity that comes with matters affecting family relationships. Indeed, this is a Bill that touches everyone in one way or another. This is because all of us are either a son or daughter and many of us are parents as well. I hope that we can all learn to love, to care and to forgive our parents for their shortcomings and past wrongs as we hope our children would do unto us. That will be the hallmark of a truly resilient family and one which we in Singapore would be proud to have as a priority. If there is such a ranking in the world, let us strive to be number one on the list.”
“We rely on the truthful reporting of parents about non-payments. What the amendments do is to make it less onerous to claim from the children, assuming that the parents do want to make this claim. The amendments are meant, in short, to show that the law has force. When a order has been given, we need to make sure that there is responsibility to enforce the duty. At the same time, we have left some things fuzzy. Under the current law, if parties do not turn up, no action is taken against them. So, the officers spend time on long conversations over the phone. If we were to be cold-blooded about it, we could have strong arm methods of enforcing payments and collecting them. But this would be the family version of "going nuclear". We have decided not to take a hard line on this, so we have gone a little way. We have improved the process but we have, quite deliberately, left it imperfect. But having said that, absence from such meetings will be taken into account by the Tribunal when the case is heard before it. So we worked on compulsory conciliation. At the moment, there is no consequence if any party does not attend the mediation session. But we do not want to press the "force" button. The thinking was that it would be somewhat paradoxical if you force someone to reconcile. But the paradox dissolves if we see this as a first and critical step towards the mediation rather than the adjudication process. This signals our commitment to the process. In the end, we compromised. Meaning, we accept that there will be some absentees and we do not punish them directly. But still, one cannot choose to ignore the mediation process with impunity as this will count in the decision of the Tribunal.”
“There are also instances where children have agreed to support their parents even though parents may be "undeserving". This is an example of the positive externalities that I hope will emanate from this policy – that settlement can be amicable and that children forgive and care for their parents. On the strength of this approach, we see that about 70% of cases that come to the Commissioner's Office reach settlement through conciliation. And again, about 70% of cases that reach the Tribunal's office are settled through compulsory mediation. If unsuccessful, the cases will be heard by the Tribunal. Finally, and here I come to my main point, something which the Minister also mentioned – based on the past 14 years, the average quantum awarded is $300 a month. This is less than what recipients on Public Assistance get. And these parents who get the money from their children do not get free healthcare unlike Public Assistance recipients, a point which my colleague Ms Denise Phua made. What this shows me is this – the Maintenance of Parents Act really is and has always been about basic needs. This is not an attempt to copy the maintenance of spouses or wives in the sense that we are not after providing a certain sort of lifestyle. What we are after is basic maintenance,merely survival. It sounds very harsh when I say this, but this is as far as we are prepared to go in terms of legislation. Second, this is not a law for lobbying the cause of parents. There is a line which we consciously did not cross. This is not a law for advocacy. We do not "push" the case for parents. In a sense, parents who do not want to claim from their children will not be "pushed" to do so. This is apparent in our treatment of defaulters.”
“Do functional families ever need this law? For the third time, and quite obviously, no. But today's motion depends, not on a yes answer to any of these questions, but merely our recognition of this: does Singapore, as a society, recognise that families fail? The answer is yes. Do we think that we ought to help these families? Yes again. Is money the best way to do this, no matter how imperfect a substitute for love, no matter how poorly matched the needs, no matter how arduous the process of mediation? Again, yes. Today, I thank you for being here. Today, we are here as Members of Parliament, NMPs and NCMPs. We can help not just by philosophising an academic argument but by lending our weight to real and present policies, by tapping on a national infrastructure, by putting resources both in areas where the family has failed and to strengthen family ties. Let us agree on this and move on. Let me now move on to address a few other empirical points which have been brought up by some Members. First, the issue of undeserving parents which was brought up by Dr Lam Pin Min and Mr Baey Yam Keng. There is fear that "undeserving parents" will try and fleece their children, and get money from them. Yes, I did ask MCYS, what proportion of cases seen by the Commissioner and Tribunal is related to undeserving parents. The facts are these: on average, about 12% of total applications are dismissed by the Tribunal. Of these, the most common reason for dismissal was that there was no reciprocity in the parent-child relationship. The Commissioner brokers a mutual agreement between both parties. Circumstances of parents and children and their merits to the case are also considered in the conciliation process.”
“As I mentioned, what the Workgroup had in mind was for smooth coordination between the Commissioner and Tribunal's offices, including a hassle free and quick way of communicating between the two. I have been given to understand, in fact, that the two sides are already exploring how to streamline processes. I am also glad that MCYS is prepared to resource the Commissioner's office accordingly such that there will not be a pile-up of cases waiting to be conciliated. Applicants whose cases were dismissed preliminarily by either the Tribunal President or Deputy President can appeal to the full Tribunal. Dr Lam was concerned about whether this is fair since the hearing would be presided by the same group of members. We have provided a condition that the member who dismissed the application shall not sit in the quorum hearing the appeal. Mr Arthur Fong raised concerns about publicity. I assure him that the Tribunal hearings are all heard in private. Publicity, if any, of any case will all be redacted to precisely address the concerns the Member has raised. Assoc. Prof. Paulin Straughan raised quite a few points which many of my Workgroup members, namely Mdm Halimah Yacob, Mr Sin Boon Ann, Mr Viswa Sadasivan and Ms Ellen Lee have subsequently addressed. So I will not repeat them. Minister Vivian Balakrishnan has also stated and the Government's stance on this, which I support. Let me now quickly deal with a point of history – an old argument that was first addressed some 15 years ago but one which has been brought up again by Assoc. Prof. Paulin Straughan – that is, is it ever possible to match an amount of money to aparent's love? The answer of course is no. Is it desirable to replace family ties with State intervention? The answer again, no.”
“As to Mrs Mildred Tan's suggestion to consider an opt-out deduction scheme for children for part of their monies to go into their parents' CPF accounts, my own feel is that there needs to be some private space in the child-parent relationship. As mentioned, we do not want to be overly prescriptive in approach. Moving on to Mr Hri Kumar's concern about the process and the conciliation and mediation. First, I want to assure him that we are advocating a two-stage process – first to the Commissioner for conciliation before a Tribunal hearing. Yes, conciliation is a must and necessary first step. If it comes to a full Tribunal hearing, we would have satisfied ourselves that conciliation has more or less failed. This referral to the Commissioner for conciliation does not add an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy nor will it mean that legitimate claims will be put on a backburner. The intent is to provide the right venue for conciliation before families prematurely end up at a Tribunal hearing, which is closer to a Court. Mr Hri Kumar also asked if information of each party obtained from agencies would be disclosed in the course of the proceedings. We do not anticipate the Tribunal to require information from government agencies in all cases. The main purpose of obtaining information is not to vary the maintenance sum according to a child's earning capacity but primarily to determine if the child's nature of employment allows the ability to pay for a parent's "basic needs". Hence, we do not anticipate questions of unfairness to arise. Dr Lam Pin Min expressed concern on the possibility of a backlog of cases should conciliation be made compulsory as the process appears to have lengthened.”
“Mdm Ho Geok Choo was concerned about the costs associated with the additional resources needed by the Tribunal and, in particular, the Commissioner in light of our proposal. I assure her that this factor was considered by our Workgroup, in particular, by Mrs Mildred Tan who has ensured that our secretariat keeps her well supplied with figures, numbers and tables. Having engaged the various stakeholders in this space, we are convinced that investing in this aspect will have several benefits downstream. Yes, some additional manpower will be needed for case monitoring and for conciliation work and I am glad that the Minister in his address has committed to doing so. In addition, the streamlining of administrative processes at both the Tribunal and Commissioner's offices will also lead to more efficient use of resources on the whole. On the effectiveness to ensure minimal defaults on maintenance applications, I note that there are measures to incorporate this in the proposed provisions to the Women's Charter Act which we will consider and debate in the next sitting. The Minister has alluded to this in his address as well. Such concerns are valid and should be looked at. On malicious parents and moral hazards raised by Mdm Ho Geok Choo, I had covered these points in my opening speech. We recognise this and have made it possible for such frivolous cases and vexatious applications to be dismissed by the Tribunal. Beyond the amendments we proposed, there are some areas where we do not want to hardcode or to be too prescriptive. I like and support Mr Zainudin Nordin's call for children to consider taking up health insurance for their parents if they can afford it. This is sound advice.”
“Mdm Deputy Speaker, I thank you for your interest and patience in this Bill, and for the 18 other Members who have spoken. I welcome, in particular, the one Member who opposed the Bill because it is opposing winds which help us rise. In the course of this debate, most objections have been dealt with and in these closing remarks, I hope to explain why my belief on what we are doing remains unshaken. I believe in this law but as I have said in the beginning, I hope that this law will be used infrequently and perhaps in the longer run, it will become irrelevant. This can only happen if there are sufficient resources, good policies and a set of common values in place to ensure that elderly parents have a good network of care. First, let me thank my Workgroup comprising Ms Denise Phua, Mr Sin Boon Ann, Ms Ellen Lee, Mr Sam Tan, Mrs Mildred Tan, Mdm Halimah Yacob, Mr Laurence Wee, Mr Wee Siew Kim and Mr Viswa Sadasivan. All of them have played an important and crucial part in putting together this piece of legislation. They have also shared their perspectives in this amendment Bill. In their own ways, they have addressed and clarified the various points made by the other nine Members who have spoken today – Mr Hri Kumar, Mdm Ho Geok Choo, Mr Seng Han Thong, Dr Lam Pin Min, Mr Arthur Fong, Mdm Cynthia Phua, Assoc. Prof. Paulin Straughan, Mr Zainudin Nordin and Mr Baey Yam Keng. As I said, save for one Member, all those who have spoken supported the amendment Bill. As regards the points raised by Members, most of these have been quite conclusively dealt with by my other Workgroup members, so I will just cover those which, in my opinion, remain outstanding.”
“Sir, I beg to introduce a Bill intituled "An Act to amend the Maintenance of Parents Act (Chapter 167B of the 1996 Revised Edition)". Bill read the First time. Mr Speaker: Second Reading, what day?”
“These considerations determine the merits of the case and the final verdict or agreement that is reached. The Act is neither a means for parents to demand money to meet their frivolous needs nor is it an avenue parents may abuse to demand for support from children whom they had not contributed to their upbringing. A second key principle is the emphasis on reconciliation. We recognise that to most parents the notion of taking one's children to Court is a drastic, almost unthinkable option. And in a bid to maintain family ties, we advocate that differences be resolved amicably, not through legal means as a first resort. The importance of this non-adversarial approach has been further strengthened in our review by giving more attention and creating the space for conciliation. Sir, I beg to move. Question put, and agreed to. Resolved, That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the Maintenance of Parents Act (Chapter 167B of the 1996 Revised Edition).”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the Maintenance of Parents Act (Chapter 167B of the 1996 Revised Edition). Mr Speaker, Sir, at this year's Committee of Supply Debate on the Budget for the Ministry of Community Development, Youth and Sports, I accepted Minister Dr Vivian Balakrishnan's suggestion to move a private Member's Bill to amend the Act. The 10-member work group that I had assembled has completed its review and recommendations. Sir, the key objective of our review is to enhance the effectiveness of the Act for its beneficiaries whilst retaining its original intention of deterring unfilial adult children from neglecting their duty to care for their parents. To reiterate, the review is not an attempt to legislate filial piety; rather, it emphasises the principles which our social safety net is based on – that of personal responsibility, family responsibility and the many "helping-hands" approach. Filial piety continues to be a value that the vast majority of our society holds dear. Nonetheless, the Act is applicable and necessary for a minority group of vulnerable parents. The proposed amendments are a response to changing social landscape and an ageing society that will place increasing stresses on families, and a greater need to build more resilient families in the face of such pressures. Sir, the Act embraces key principles that bear emphasis. The first is the principle of reciprocity of care. In application, this means that the Tribunal or the Commissioner for the Maintenance of Parents will consider all circumstances of the parties involved, including parents' treatment of their children and their past spending habits.”
“– is under his Ministry, while the Casino Regulatory Authority (CRA) comes under the Ministry of Home Affairs. I wonder whether both Ministries should come together and think about whether, from a regulatory viewpoint and from the point of managing these problem issues, they should be parked under one Ministry. Perhaps both Ministers can consider this point.”
“Sir, I note that the National Council on Problem Gambling –”
“Youth are very vulnerable to addiction, and the harm this brings about, as you know, is life-long. While several of the proposed amendments will help towards curbing tobacco use in our younger population, we need to continue to reach out to them and to the people who may have an influence over them to encourage a tobacco-free lifestyle as the desired norm. If anything, I urge the Ministry to step up its plans to further discourage tobacco use among the young.”
“Similar to international studies, a local study in 2009, found that a significant proportion of Singapore residents perceived that cigarette packs labelled with descriptors like "mild" and "light", delivered less nicotine, and that they were less harmful to health, and this would make it easier for a smoker to quit, compared with other descriptors. In the same focus group discussion that I had made reference to earlier, the youth smokers also shared that they smoked cigarettes labelled "mild" as they were under the impression that these were safer options. I am therefore heartened to know that we are looking at prohibiting misleading labels such as "mild" and "light", and am sure that MOH and HPB will continue to study and to adapt international best practices in this area. Mr Speaker, Sir, the introduction of the minimum pack size for cigarettes in 1993 had effectively prevented retailers from selling loose sticks of cigarettes at low prices. Price has been shown to be an effective deterrent for individuals experimenting with cigarettes. Congruent to international observations, in a local survey involving smokers and non-smokers aged 12 to 29 years, one in four (that is 25%) indicated that increasing the cost of cigarettes would deter young people from smoking. Youth smokers at various HPB programmes have also indicated that they are more likely to quit smoking if the price of cigarettes was increased. The call for cigarillos to be sold in packs of no less than 20 will certainly make them less affordable to youths and bring us a step closer towards reducing prevalence of tobacco use in our youths. I support such a call and I feel it is time for the Ministry to look into such measures as well.”
“Recently, I saw an episode of the popular American documentary programme, 60 Minutes, on YouTube, which focused on snus. It featured a youth who used snus in the gym, in class, and even when having his dinner, simply to satisfy his insatiable craving for nicotine. It struck me that such a scenario could easily become a reality in Singapore. In fact, in a recent focus group discussion conducted by Health Promotion Board, youth smokers aged 15 to 17 expressed that they would be curious to try some of the new and emerging tobacco products that were shown to them. In addition, they felt that some of the products appeared easier to use than cigarettes and that they could pose challenges to the enforcement of underaged smoking laws. Whilst such products are relatively new and studies on their full extent of harm are still ongoing, it is important to take pre-emptive action now rather than later. So, I am pleased to note that the proposed amendments look into banning new and emerging products. However, while we may ban such products, our youths might still be able to have access to them when they are overseas, or be misled by deceiving information from the manufacturers of such products. We, therefore, need to continue to educate our youth, going beyond cigarette smoking to include tobacco in other forms and stressing the addictive power of nicotine. We also need to teach our young to be discerning about the tactics of the tobacco industry and help them to develop life skills to stay tobacco-free for life. Mr Speaker, Sir, while we look into addressing new and emerging products, we should continue to tighten controls on existing products.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir. First, let me declare my interest as a Board member of the Health Promotion Board. I applaud the Ministry for responding quickly to the emerging tobacco trends and proposing a range of evidence-informed amendments to the Smoking (Control of Advertisements and Sale of Tobacco) Act. The proposed measures not only signal the Government’s commitment to the world’s first health treaty, the Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, but it also sends a clear message that, despite having a relatively low smoking prevalence, Singapore continues to ensure that measures are put in place to minimise the impact of tobacco use on our people’s health. Singapore has seen a steady decline in its smoking prevalence since the 1970s when the first tobacco control legislation was enacted. However, as highlighted by Minister Khaw, there has been an increase in the smoking prevalence in recent years, especially among young adults aged 18 to 29 years. The age of smoking initiation was found to be 16 years young! Peer pressure, curiosity, and the misconception that one will not get easily addicted to nicotine – these are some of the reasons why our youths initiate smoking. Once they start, it can be very difficult to quit, given the highly addictive nature of nicotine. Our tobacco control measures must therefore look into how best to tighten access to tobacco products and their substitutes and to prevent initiation, especially among youths. [Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Matthias Yao Chih) in the Chair ] I am particularly concerned about the new and emerging products that Minister Khaw has highlighted and he has shown us a few samples this afternoon. International examples have shown that these products are highly popular among youths.”
“Sir, on behalf of the GPC, I want to thank the two Ministers, Dr Vivian Balakrishnan and Assoc. Prof. Dr Yaacob Ibrahim, the Minister of State, Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon and the Senior Parliamentary Secretary, Mr Teo Ser Luck for their comprehensive answers and clarifications to the cuts made by various Members. The Ministry under their care covers a very wide and diverse scope, and their work reflects the heart and soul of our society. I would also like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the good and hard work put in by all the staff in the Ministy and also those in the social sector. Finally, I know I speak for all in the House as we wish the Ministry every success in the hosting of the inaugural Youth Olympic Games this August. On that note, I would like to seek permission to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $1,825,144,700 for Head I ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $141,813,400 for Head I ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Column No : 3978 Head W - Ministry of Transport Household Interview Travel Survey 2008 and Land Transport Masterplan”
“Mr Chairman, just a few clarifications for the Minister. First, on filial piety. I would like to ask the Minister what measures the Ministry is doing to promote this important value particularly amongst our young and our young adults. Second, on my suggestions on Government-paid maternity and paternity leave, I am indeed quite encouraged by the Minister's response. He mentioned that this will be featured when we do the review on the marriage and parenthood measures by Deputy Prime Minister Wong. I assume the review will be quite a few years away. So, could this be taken in isolation if we feel these are important steps which will make a difference? It can eventually still be part of the overall measures to be reviewed by Deputy Prime Minister Wong. And my third point is this. The Minister suggested, and I would like to accept his suggestion, to consider moving a Private Member's Bill to amend and strengthen the Maintenance of Parents Act. I look forward to Members who have an interest in this to join me in this journey, including those from the public. I would just like to request if the Minister can consider extending the Ministry's resources in terms of legislative and secretarial support for this purpose. 6.45 pm One clarification for the Senior Parliamentary Secretary. This is with regard to corporate governance in the National Sports Associations (NSAs), a point which Mr Palmer has asked. Referring to the Singapore Athletic Association (SAA) case, as what Mr Palmer has rightly pointed out, the lapses were there for quite some time. No doubt SAA has something to answer but I assume, and I would also expect, that the Singapore Sports Council (SSC) also needs to account for the lapses. I would like his response to that.”
“Suppose we celebrate each year of success in staying married. Why not give a "marriage bonus" to each couple that stays married for five, 10 and 20 years, with each bonus being a different amount, to be from $1,000 to $5,000? This may not address the issue directly but it does show that we support healthy families and we will allow each family to find its own path. Manpower development in social enterprises”
“Sir, I would like to ask the Minister if he can give us an update following the enhancement of the HOPE scheme in April 2009 to include divorced women. Sir, I know that the Government takes a conservative view of families and that there is some fear that being generous to single mothers (whether divorced or unmarried) could be seen as endorsing and encouraging "growth" of the single-mums category. I share the same view. But at the same time, we know that many become single mums are forced by circumstances and not by choice. Last year, I was most heartened that MCYS agreed to my suggestion to include divorced mothers with two or fewer children in the HOPE scheme. At the same time, I do think that this group can be given more social support. Many mothers, because of their single status, do not get maternity leave, Baby Bonus, nor child sick leave, much less housing and many other rights others take for granted. Sir, is there some way we can look to assist those with young children to live in rental flats, and to be eligible for sick child leave? Sir, while there is some acknowledgement that we need to send a signal of what values we stand for through our policies, I think we can add in a higher degree of compassion in this case. Second, can we have more intensive case management of such families? Sir, I have spoken before about the need to build resilience and to focus on keeping the numbers of marriage breakups down. We need to break the vicious cycle and provide solutions for such families. I think this continues to be important and we have to work hard at helping these families pull themselves out. But why not use a carrot approach as well as a helping hand one? Why not provide incentives for staying married?”
“This scheme is on top of any paid maternity or paternity leave entitlement. Obviously, the announcement was welcomed by most Australians, although it has taken almost seven years to materialise from the time Australia's first paid maternity leave legislation was tabled. I would like to believe I would not need seven years to work on this. We need to offer solutions that remove splinter distractions, such as workplace factors, from impending family responsibilities. We need to start thinking progressively like Google, who attracts and retains high caliber talent with its differentiated, employee-centric benefits, including four weeks' paternity leave that the Singapore office provides. I think the news appeared just last week. For the reasons as stated, I hope the Ministry can consider supporting my proposal to have legally mandated paternity leave. In addition, I also propose that as part of our measures to build stronger families and to promote pro-creation, can we extend Government Paid Maternity Leave to economically active women who are currently excluded from such schemes? Taking it a step further, can we allow fathers to share Government Paid Maternity Leave with mothers as a form of paternal leave? Can Government take the lead especially for those in the teaching service where several teachers by virtue of their service terms are currently excluded. Affordable childcare and human resource constraints”
“Sir, first, let me declare my interest as a Board Member for the Centre for Fathering. This is actually my third year running in raising this issue of legislating paid paternity leave in Singapore. The only difference is I am doing so under MCYS as I would like their stand on this. I am smiling because I am looking at Mr Hawazi Daipi – I have raised it for the last two years and he actually, in his reply, asked me to raise it again this year. According to the findings of the first large-scale "Fatherhood Perception" survey on 2,220 respondents here, commissioned by MCYS in November 2009, most fathers in career-centric Singapore wish they could spend more time with their children. Major obstacles are work, financial difficulties, and a lack of parenting resources and knowledge. The findings of the MCYS survey on perceptions on fatherhood are revealing. Yes, we are mindful of the Government's earlier reply, that it has already provided working fathers with paid and unpaid leave options of six days each. However, Indonesia and the Philippines are the few Southeast Asian countries granting paid paternity leave to married workers. According to a June 2009 paper from the Centre for Economic and Policy Research titled "Parental Leave Policies in 21 Countries – Assessing Generosity and Gender Equality", the policy that divided leave and payments equally between mothers and fathers on a non-transferable "use it or lose it" basis would help to counteract both traditional gender roles and labour-market pressures. Australia will be introducing Paid Paternal Leave Scheme in January next year, subject to their parliamentary approval where they will grant Paid Paternal Leave Scheme of 18 weeks' pay.”
“Banks can set up such accounts to encourage children to contribute a certain amount of money on a regular basis. This account in the name of their parents can only be drawn down by parents upon reaching a certain age, say, 62 years. These contributions should receive tax exemption. The contributions and accounts can also be set up for uncles, aunties and other relatives. One major local bank has already made the first move to recognise the importance of planning for our parents' future as they age. They call it a SmartSenior Account. This is a joint account for children to open with their parents, allowing them to receive their monthly allowance from their children. Operationally, therefore, there is nothing new in this "filial piety" savings account proposal. The principle I am underlining is an important one. (1) We should make it easy for people to give funds to their parents. (2) We should allow a regular and hassle-free transaction. (3) We should give some Government support towards this effort. Sir, I hope the Ministry will consider my suggestions, especially those relating to the strengthening of the Maintenance of Parents Act. Strengthening the household”
“I propose that the Act be amended to empower the Commissioner to investigate the circumstances and take appropriate action if an elderly parent seeks social assistance from the Government. The Commissioner should be able to assist the CDCs and HDB in obtaining the addresses of their children. This will help them locate the children for assessment and refer "maintenance" cases to the Commissioner, so that children with adequate financial means do support their parents. We should push for closer collaboration between the Commissioner and the social assistance agencies to ensure that only truly deserving cases receive state assistance. I also suggest the following amendments to make the Tribunal processes more efficient: Currently, the President of the Tribunal must be one of the three members to form a quorum. Perhaps, a Deputy President or two can be appointed and hearings can be presided over by either one of them. Next, remove the prescribed forms from Maintenance of Parents Rules, streamline the forms, review and update them. Possibly, remove the fees and the limit on solicitor's costs. Finally, I also propose that we can review the age limit of 60 years or more – should it be lowered or removed altogether? Something to think about. Sir, the foregoing speaks to the revision of the Act, which I hope will apply only to extreme cases. But I would like to end my speech with a practical and concrete way to realise filial piety. Yes, we have already done this with the Act – but this Act is a stick, to force people who would otherwise ignore their parents, to provide a minimum sum for them. Now, can we have a carrot? Can the MCYS help us to set up a "filial piety" savings account with tax incentives?”
“The Commissioner should also have a role in monitoring cases of the Maintenance Orders which have been issued, in particular cases where the children repeatedly default against the Orders. To facilitate its work at the pre-filing stage, the Commissioner should be empowered to investigate the merits of the case. This includes the power to obtain data on the children and their financial status from other agencies. One key piece of information that is required is the address to contact the children for reconciliation and counselling. MCYS told me that about 14% of elderly parents approaching the Tribunal in 2008 could not provide adequate details of their children, and so they could not proceed to file their cases. For identities and addresses of the children, the key data source agencies are ICA and HDB. These agencies should be allowed to provide the data to the Commissioner. The ability to trace children would serve as a deterrent to unfilial children. Data on financial means is also needed to verify the ability to support parents and the most updated data would be the children's CPF contribution information. Yes, we need to put in the necessary safeguards to manage data disclosure and also confidentiality of certain information. For a start, the Commissioner should request for relevant documents from the children first. Where the children are uncooperative, adverse inferences should be drawn by the Commissioner or Tribunal as the case may be. Over the past year, I understand that the CDCs and HDB have also been tightening their application processes for ComCare assistance and subsidised rental housing. As a principle, I agree that social assistance to the elderly should be rendered only if children do not have the financial means to support them.”
“Sir, the effectiveness of the Act and the workflow processes should be strengthened to assist elderly parents while deterring adult children from neglecting their duty to care for their parents. I know the Ministry is currently reviewing the Act, and I have the following suggestions. I propose enhancing the role of the Commissioner for Maintenance of Parents to assist elderly parents by introducing a pre-filing registration stage. Today, the process begins more formally when parents approach the Tribunal for Maintenance of Parents and file their claims, which many elderly find it too drastic a step as it begins the legal and necessary adversarial court proceedings. By bringing forward the intervention to the pre-filing stage, the Commissioner can better facilitate a settlement between parents and their children without first having to resort to the Tribunal. I suggest that elderly parents who approach the Tribunal Secretariat be registered. And on registration, the case will be passed to the Commissioner who could help them in the following ways: referral to a Family Service Centre or having an Alternate Dispute Resolution at the Commissioner's Office where the Commissioner would work with the parent and the children to bring about an agreement and representation by the Commissioner on behalf of the elderly in filing the case. The Commissioner should monitor closely and escalate these cases when required. In short, I am pushing for workflow improvements and simplicity. 3.45 pm Where cases have reached an agreement facilitated by the Commissioner, I propose that the parties involved seek a Consent Order from the Tribunal. This Order can be enforced at the Family Court in the event of non-compliance.”
“I remember a Mdm Kan – not her real name – she is 69 years old now; I would have seen her at least six times at my MPS. She had wanted to sell the 3-room flat she co-owned with one of her daughters and to get a rental flat, claiming that her children no more cared for her and she needed the monies for living expenses. I told her the existing policies would preclude her from being able to get a rental flat. I probed deeper into her case. To cut a long story short, after quite a few attempts, I finally managed to meet up with her eldest daughter and, after a few more meetings, eventually managed to get both to come together and work out a solution. This case had a satisfactory ending. Yes, circumstances are different for each case and the blame is not always with the children themselves. While some elderly parents seek help, they shy away from taking the legal route and file for maintenance under the Maintenance of Parents Act. This behaviour is natural and to be expected. Sir, the Act was introduced in 1996 to deter unfilial adult children from abdicating their responsibility of maintaining their parents. From January 2002 to December 2008, over 700 maintenance applications were filed by elderly parents against children. In 2009, I understand there was more than a 50% increase in applications received compared to 2008. Sir, I am dismayed by this increase but also somewhat comforted. This increase shows one of two things – if it shows that there are more children who are not caring for their parents, then I am dismayed. If it shows that there are more parents who are willing to bring their children to court to force payments, then I am comforted. I think it is a mixture of the two.”
“Sir, I beg to move, That the total sum to be allocated for Head I of the Estimates be reduced by $100. The landscape keeps changing as business cycles get shorter and shocks from externalities more common. As we transform our economy and workforce to face these challenges, some citizens will not be able to manage these changes. I urge MCYS to look out for these danger signs on their radar screens. And with the opening of the two IRs, the associated social ills are a foregone consequence – let us take a kiasu approach and be over prepared to deal with them. The principles which our social safety net are based on – that of personal responsibility, family responsibility and the Many-Helping-Hands approach – they are all sound. The goal must always be to reduce social inequality, to strengthen social equity. Sir, even as I say these words, and mean them from the bottom of my heart, I know that they are mere platitudes. In our ageing society, the demands and stresses on every family keep increasing. We have always strived to build stronger, more resilient families and this is probably the most important investment from both an individual's and a country's perspective. Weak, broken families will eventually lead to more resources and support required from the community, State and VWOs. It starts with filial piety – a concept and value that we all hold dear and yet something which needs reinforcement, more so now than before. Many Members here can identify with me as we encounter cases of elderly citizens coming to our Meet-the-People Session (MPS) seeking help or advice because they have been "abandoned" by their children and left largely to fend for themselves.”
“Sir, I just want to ask the Minister two clarifications. I had asked that the Minister consider mandating the ambient temperature in public buildings at 24 degrees. He said, well, the guideline is within 22.5 to 25.5. I am fine with that. But if I heard him correctly, he said that there are no plans in the short term as well as the long term to consider my suggestion. I think that is a bit too strong a position. I hope he will not shut the door to this suggestion. I am glad to hear that the NEA has been working with public agencies to make sure that major and national events that are organised are more "green". I recall that in the last few years, every year at the countdown party held at the Marina, there were all these huge white plastic balls where we were asked to pen our wishes. I have not done any of them. They are visually very interesting, very impactful, but certainly environmentally most unfriendly. I would like the Minister's views on this. Assoc. Prof. Dr Yaacob Ibrahim: Sir, I would like to assure Mr Seah that the door remains open for us to consider mandating temperature in large buildings but when that door will remain open or close is up for further discussion. On the second point on those white balloons in which people were asked to pen their thoughts for the New Year, we have a strict rule about what they can put into our reservoir and what they must do after that. And so even though it is on the Marina Reservoir, they must clean it up immediately. But his point as to whether or not the use of the balloons is right, because it is plastic, we will put this point across to the organisers to see whether or not there are other ways that they can do this in an environmentally-friendly manner.”
“Second, can the NEA also come up with a list of guidelines towards organising "green" events, for example the amount of recyclables that must be used and the maximum amount of water that is generated? Finally, Sir, I would also like to ask all Government bodies, including Parliament, to make public their current carbon footprints and to declare their targets as well as the timelines to meet these objectives. UN climate change conference in 2009”
“For a 4-room flat, the average electricity bill is $92 a month and for water, about $32. Therefore, their average utility bill without gas is $134. For those who are savvy consumers, their water and electricity bill can be under $100. And if we are very frugal and careful, if we consume less than 50% of what the national per capita consumption is, then I think the Public Utilities Board should reward us with a very low flat fee of about $50 for both electricity and water. 5.15 pm I call this social pricing but, of course, I do not think that this should be means tested. With this price, and assuming my rough calculations are right, we should offer this deal to everyone. It is both a socially responsible and financially prudent thing to do. Carbon footprint and targets There is a heatwave in Singapore at the moment, but pop into any office along Raffles Place and it is winter time. What is the matter with us? We can build two resorts in a few years but we cannot turn the air-conditioning down. I would like to ask for us to legislate the setting of air-conditioning in all public buildings at 24 degree Celsius. This is the same call that I made last two years, in the face of our continued callousness in the use of electricity – I think it must be mandated. This is not just to save money, it is a general principle of frugality, not to use more than you need, and to tread as lightly as we can upon the earth’s surface. I have two other proposals regarding national events. First, we ought to ensure that they are as green as possible. NEA has been able to conduct some carbon offsets for its events such as youth concerts. Can the NEA teach the rest of our Government agencies how such offsets work, and see if they can adopt it too?”
“Sir, I would like to ask if we can give a special price for Singaporeans who manage to work with less than the international benchmarks for conservation of water and electricity. I suggest that this be priced no more than $50 for a household of four, or some pro-rated amount for larger households. Let me explain. Currently, Singaporeans use about 158 litres of water per person per day. Although we are on schedule to meet the target of per capita domestic consumption of 155 litres by 2012, why not set a challenge for Singaporeans to see if they can do with much less? Our domestic electricity consumption per person has declined in four consecutive years from 2005. Yet in countries like Hong Kong electricity consumption is much less – in 2006 this was some 30% less than Singapore’s per capita consumption. Is there a possibility that Singaporeans can be encouraged to do with much less? Sir, the climate talks around the world will continue but progress has been slow. On the ground, in our homes, I am sure that every one of us would like to make a difference. This is a practical and important way to educate Singaporeans about the possibilities of doing with less. The PUB and Singapore Power have had education campaigns for years. Having a low rate special will give Singaporeans fresh impetus and a new sense of fun when saving water and electricity. These benchmarks are per capita based so even large households will benefit. Now, how do we price them? I suggest the Ministry follow a social pricing model – that is to say, for households who are needy and who would like very much to save on their utility bills, have a very low price for those who manage to stay significantly below national averages.”
“Could those starting a family be given much higher priority in their HDB flat applications? The list goes on. Sir, it is a difficult problem and we are fighting against a global trend. But try we must. I hope the Ministry will consider all proposals and see how they can complement the current incentive schemes. National Population Secretariat”
“Sir, we are worried that the Singaporean born in Singapore may one day become a rare and exotic creation. Total fertility rate is at an all time low. We need to review the effectiveness of the various parenthood measures. After all, our expenditure on parenthood measures has increased almost 100% since 2007. Sir, I suggest that the Government target its subsidies in three ways: (1) Give more to parents who want to have assisted conception. Sir, I suggest that the first course of IVF for all Singaporean citizens be paid for completely by the Government. This will give those who really want to have children the financial means to do so. Last year, there was a 50% increase in patient numbers for IVF, after the Government announced its subsidy. (2) Continue to provide financial and other support for children up to the time they are 18 years old, at a budget of about $300 per child per year, and this amount can be used for anything that the parents want – whether it is buying books, going for hair cuts, new clothes, and so on – in other words, minimal restrictions. (3) Increase the number of university places for Singaporeans. Sir, many of us worry about our children and our bank accounts as our children near 18 years old. The MOE has told us that the increase has been about 5% each year – is this rate enough to keep up with demographics and the changing aspirations of Singaporeans? The long-term goal has been to provide places for 25% of each cohort. Why not aim for at least 30% of Singaporean children having a place in a Singapore university? (4) Adopt a Whole-of-Government approach to tackle this issue – can the current Government paid maternity leave scheme be enhanced? Would paternity leave help?”
“Mr Laurence Wee Yoke Thong asked the Minister for National Development whether the Government will consider extending land leases to at least 60 years or 30 years plus another 30 years for the establishment of retirement homes or villages so as to provide more residential options for the elderly. The Senior Minister of State for National Development (Ms Grace Fu Hai Yien) (for the Minister for National Development): Developers can already build retirement housing on any site zoned "Residential". They can also choose to build residential developments and customise the design and concept to target specific niche markets, including the elderly. For instance, some developers have introduced "dual-key" adjoining apartments in private condominiums. In addition, the Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) has made available a site at Jalan Jurong Kechil for sale on short tenure of 30 years. The developer has the flexibility to develop the site for retirement housing or conventional housing development. The shorter tenure of 30 years allowed for the site was intended to reduce the land costs, which could facilitate retirement housing development. We will study the suggestion to extend land leases to 60-year or 30+30-year tenures for such sites in future. HDB has also built Studio Apartments, which are custom-built for elderly living and made our public housing estates elderly friendly.”
“Question No. 2. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development (Dr Mohamad Maliki Bin Osman) (for the Minister for National Development): In general, HDB’s 1,800 car parks are sufficient to cater to both season parking and short term parking needs of the various housing estates. The average season parking take-up rate in HDB car parks is about 73% currently. However, due to changes in the demographic profiles and car ownership patterns, about 10% of HDB car parks are currently unable to meet local parking demand. HDB is looking into supply as well as demand management measures to alleviate the shortages at these car parks. Depending on the availability of space as well as cost considerations, HDB may add parking lots by extending the existing surface car parks into adjacent vacant land, adding parking decks to existing multi-storey car parks (MSCPs), or constructing new MSCPs to replace existing surface car parks. HDB currently has no plans to construct MSCPs in Aljunied GRC as the shortfalls in parking lots at the affected locations are too small to justify the provision of MSCPs. It will look into providing additional parking lots through other means instead. There are limits to increasing car parks in land scarce Singapore. Therefore, demand management measures are also essential. Where there are only limited parking lots for season parking ticket holders, HDB accords priority to the first car in each household. HDB also groups its car parks for season parking such that car owners living in several nearby blocks share their car park lots. HDB will continue to monitor and manage the supply and demand for HDB car parks to address residents’ changing parking needs. LAND LEASES FOR ESTABLISHMENT OF RETIREMENT HOMES (Extension) 3.”
“Sir, there is one portion where the Senior Parliamentary Secretary did not quite address which is the impact on future athletic events. And just one last question, are there any other NSAs where SSC may have concerns with regard to corporate governance issues?”
“Should the Government play a more active role in this, or leave it to the fraternity to sort itself out? Second, can the SSC consider direct funding to the athletes in view of this protracted negotiation, specifically for the 4 x 100-metre relay team? Can this be done given that one of our best athletic talents in recent decades? Third, – Mr Speaker: Mr Seah, I said I would allow only one question. You have gotten into your third, now.”
“Thank you, Sir. I thank the Senior Parliamentary Secretary for his answer. I have the following supplementary questions. There has been much public interest in this matter and there were some calls for MCYS to get involved in addressing the leadership issue in SAA. My first question is, should Government –”