Sir Mark Tami
MP for Alyn and Deeside · Labour · United Kingdom
“On the point made by the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), Bellway is certainly a company that has done this. Indeed, many people did not even realise that they had a leasehold house and only found out quite a while afterwards when all the costs started to come down the road.”
“The thing that really surprised me was that Wembley is not just your average stadium; it is a purpose-built stadium that we would expect to have the best security, yet that number of people were able to get through. As my hon. Friend said, that could potentially have caused the loss of life.”
“The hon. Gentleman mentioned the work of Harefield Hospital. My son has been at Harefield for four months after having a heart transplant just before Christmas; it has been a very traumatic time. I would like to place on record the incredible support and care the hospital provides.”
“I promise the hon. Member that I will not. As someone who is very pro-nuclear, I believe that one big issue is that we have loads of reviews, and identify all the problems and what we will do, and then never actually do it. If we do get around to building a station, we build one—not a number of them; just one.”
“I have been to Finland and seen its waste repository. It is not rocket science—it is not that difficult. We have put this off for years and years. The argument always used against the industry is, “There is no answer to the waste.” Well, there is an answer, and it is straight- forward. We just need to make that decision.”
“The right hon. Lady is making an important point. This should not be a bolt-on. It should be part and parcel of the treatment. We tend to address the physical side of the illness, open the door and away we go, and we do not ask people about some of the issues that they are struggling to cope with.”
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“At the time, it was the largest number of job losses at a single plant on a single day anywhere in the history of western Europe. Although the area has recovered and new employers have moved in and grown, the scars of the events of 1980 remain. On Deeside, nearly everybody has a family member or a friend who worked in the industry. Some people never worked again. The lesson is that such large-scale job losses affect not only the individuals who once worked the industry, but their families and the whole area. Such job losses destroy whole communities, which take many years to recover. The Government have an opportunity to save the industry and assure its long-term future, but they need to act—and they need to act now.”
“Time is needed not only to find a buyer for the whole of the UK business that will invest and commit to the future, but to allow the downstream businesses to find an alternative steel supplier should the worst happen. I do not want to see that, but the Government have to plan for all scenarios. As many other colleagues have said, we have to reassure the customer base as well. If we do not do that, there will be no businesses to sell to, because the customers will start to leave and walk away. They need assurances. Shotton, probably more than anywhere else, knows about the impact of job losses in industry. In 1980, despite the gallant efforts of my predecessor, now Lord Jones, and the trade unions, Shotton saw its steelmaking cease and more than 6,500 people lose their jobs.”
“Shotton steelworks galvanises and colour-coats steel. It is a profitable business that employs 800 people—quality jobs that are vital to the economy of Deeside. Profitable it may be, but that does not ensure its long-term survival. Shotton relies on steel from the Port Talbot operation. If Port Talbot closes sooner rather than later, it would not be long before Shotton would have to cease its operation due to lack of supply. The idea that someone can just pick up the phone and buy in from China or anywhere else lots of cheap steel of the quality and quantity needed for a plant such as Shotton is far from reality. To ensure the future of Shotton—I made this point to the Secretary of State yesterday—we need a lot of time. That is a common theme of what colleagues on both sides of the House are saying.”
“Tata’s announcement that it would no longer support its operation at Port Talbot came as no surprise to Labour Members. We had been warning the Government for months that that was coming down the line, but they chose to do nothing. The Secretary of State was on the other side of the world when the announcement came, and he now clings to the claim that he somehow saved the plant while he was in Australia. As workers at Redcar found out, this Government do too little, too late, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) has said, they offer warm words but no action. This crisis now affects the whole of the UK steel industry, not only Port Talbot. The media have a habit of describing the whole UK steel industry as loss-making, but that is far from the truth for a lot of those plants that add value.”
“My hon. Friend mentioned the various schemes that have been put in place, but does she agree that the process of applying and getting through those is very difficult, particularly for people who are so ill?”
“The Secretary of State needs to realise that this crisis affects the whole UK steel industry, not just Port Talbot. We need action that will give us the time—time is key here—to find a secure future for all the UK plants.”
“I am sure that, like me, the hon. Lady has already had survivors contact her to say how disappointed they were. The report was their hope that there would be recognition, but all it does is leave unanswered questions still unanswered.”
“The hon. Lady makes an important point about children’s voices being heard. In many of these cases, because the children were in a home, they were not considered to have any value, and that is why they were treated in the way they were. That, in some ways, is the worst aspect of this whole miserable, dreadful business.”
“Has the Macur review had unfettered access to those who can explain why the original Waterhouse inquiry did not name the persons of public prominence in its report?”
“Does the hon. Lady agree that we must also consider the families of those children who unfortunately have very short lives? We need support for them as well, and it should be available across the country.”
“Shotton steelworks, which produces “galv” and coated products, relies on Port Talbot for its supply of steel. Although Shotton is a profitable plant, if Port Talbot were to go, it would not be easy to find a good-quality supplier of steel at the drop of a hat.”
“Does the Secretary of State not understand that the clock is ticking and the industry does not have long left? Millions of pounds are being lost each day and it is no good him standing there saying, “Well, I’ve said this and that about next week and the week after.” There may not be a week after.”
“Does the hon. Gentleman not think it odd that he wants to make it a lot easier for people living abroad to vote, but this Government want to make it a lot more difficult, through individual registration, for people to register to vote in this country?”
“I am not going to repeat it. However, the hon. Gentleman should make it clear that a lot of terrorism is actually home-grown. We should not suggest that this is just about people coming from outside—the UK faces a much bigger problem than that.”
“Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that in truth this is about the failure of this Government, who are more interested in cosying up to the Chinese than protecting the steel industry in this country?”
“I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman that we would be deluding ourselves if we believed that by stopping people at the border, terrorism would somehow not be a threat to this country.”
“I agree with the hon. Lady. We need to look at this matter for the long term. Whoever makes such statements during election campaigns—whether it is us or the Government—the talk of death taxes and such things is not particularly helpful, because we need to form a cross-party view, given that we require long-term measures that will cost money. There is no way of getting out of that.”
“Although the measures announced by the Government are welcome, they are very limited. Does the Minister not accept that unless we tackle the issue of Chinese dumping, the whole future of the whole UK industry is at threat, and that the clock is ticking—we do not have much time left?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that measure sends all the wrong signals to companies that are thinking of investing, because what it really says is that the future is uncertain with this Government?”
“My hon. Friend mentions valued staff. Does he agree that, as the Minister said, thousands of valued and very experienced staff will not be able to relocate and will therefore be lost to the Revenue?”
“Is the hon. Gentleman as worried as I am that companies that are investing in finding drugs for rarer cancers are, because of their nature, small in number, and they should not be put off investing in research to find cures for those cancers because they feel that the Government—whatever party is in power—will perhaps pull the plug or concentrate only on the more common cancers?”
“Finally, let me say to the Minister that we need to look more broadly at how we support transplant patients, get beyond this arbitrary figure of 100 days, and support people with the physical illness but also, very importantly, with adjusting to some of the psychological issues that can arise.”
“Hopefully, some patients will not need a great deal of support, whereas others may need a lot of ongoing support. We need the flexibility to respond to that, rather than taking a one-size-fits-all approach. We need to do more on ongoing support, and we should not forget either that stem cell transplants are now evolving—they are a lot more common than they were—and it is not just blood cancers we are looking at. Through the work of the all-party group on stem cell transplantation, I know that this is an area that offers us a great opportunity. Equally, we cannot ignore the fact that 50% of transplant patients die within the first two years, so there is a lot of work we need to do—generally, it is not the transplant that kills them, but some of the associated problems and immunity issues.”
“No patient is the same or will have exactly the same demands, yet there is this idea that we can set an arbitrary period of 100 days, as though at the end of it we can say, “Well, everyone’s fine. We don’t need to give them the same level of support.” However, patients go to their local area and then we are back with this postcode lottery, where some get very good support but some get very little, particularly if people are not exactly sure where they should go to receive support. I do not think that is particularly fair, so I would like—and I know Anthony Nolan would like—a system that looks a lot further than 100 days and instead looks for support for a five-year period at least. Clearly there will be different requirements within that.”
“I was concerned about the poor provision and the lack of guidelines. Some schools do it very well, but some show very little understanding. CLIC Sargent has done a lot of work in this area, but we need to do more. We have to look beyond cancer. Cancer is what people are treated for, but there is a host of other issues around it. We need to look at the whole, rather than just the illness itself, and at how we support people after that illness. We define the transplant period as 30 days prior to and 100 days after the transplant, but this assumes that all patients need the same support and have the same outcomes. It takes very little account of some of the late effects that patients will experience.”
“Children, particularly younger children, will have questions such as, “Why has this happened to me?” and “Why can’t I run like I used to?”, but we had to ask for that support. It was not necessarily there in the first place or as part of an overall package, as one might have expected. I said in the Chamber that I was particularly concerned about the lack of support for children going back to school. I believe there are still no national guidelines for how schools should deal not only with returning pupils, but with other, particularly younger, children. How might they feel about seeing a child they have not seen for a while? The last time they saw them they looked like them, but now they might be on steroids or have no hair—a particular issue for girls, although it is not great for anybody.”
“As I said, the flare-ups can occur not only in the first few years, but many years down the line, yet a survey of 27 transplant centres in the UK found that while they all provided support for a year post-transplant, only half followed up after five years. Importantly, only 28% offered mental health support. This problem affects not only cancer patients, but a whole host of healthcare issues: we address the physical side of an illness, but then the patient walks out the door without our addressing their mental health needs or asking how they are coping with the diagnosis and other ongoing problems. Some years ago, I spoke in the Chamber about my son’s experience of having a stem cell transplant. We had to look for support and counselling.”
“Then there is an area not touched on much: the psychological effects of both the diagnosis of blood cancer and a transplant. Graft-versus-host disease will affect the majority of patients in the early post-transplant period, but it can persist for many years. Some element of the disease is not necessarily a bad thing, because it shows the transplant is working, but if it gets out of hand, it can cause organ failure and a host of other problems that can, and do, kill patients. In the longer term, the effects can be as minor as skin irritation, but, if in the gut, they can lead to more complicated problems, resulting in the patient having to go back into hospital.”
“I should start by saying that I am, with the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), the joint-chair of the all-party group on stem cell transplantation. I want to raise a few brief points in respect of the care of blood cancer patients who have had transplants and the ongoing care they receive. It is fair to say that at present the level of support can be described as patchy at best. There is a considerable lack of understanding of some of the issues that transplant patients face. Anthony Nolan estimates that, by 2020, there will be 16,000 people in the UK living with the long-term effects of a stem cell transplant, and they will have a higher risk of secondary cancers, infections, particularly in the early stages, infertility and problems with muscles and joints.”
“Does the Minister agree we should be talking about people living with cancer and the associated issues? A lot of people talk about “a cure” as if everything goes back to how it was before the diagnosis.”
“Although we clearly need measures such as help with business rates and energy costs, does the Secretary of State agree that if we do not tackle Chinese dumping, all those other measures will count for nothing and that the future of the industry in this country is bleak?”
“My hon. Friend has outlined all the hoops that people have to leap through. If their timing is wrong, they may or more likely may not qualify for the drug. That is happening when patients are at their weakest. They are not experts, and they find themselves victims of what can appear to be a very cruel and harsh system.”
“My hon. Friend is right about the crisis facing the industry. Does she agree that energy prices are part of the problem and have been for a long time? They are certainly affecting plants such as Shotton in my seat.”
“The hon. Gentleman has touched on some of the late effects of transplantation, and the fact that we are getting patients with late effects proves that people are living longer, but we need to put more money into research and into looking at these problems, to ensure that patients live as normal a life as possible.”
“This is not just about finding a match. We also have to think about the quality of the match. Everyone would like to see a 10 out of 10 success rate, but as a result of technological advances, lesser matches can now be used to help to save lives, even though they are not ideal.”
“My hon. Friend has talked a lot about energy prices, which are a problem. If energy costs move against a plant, it does not matter how efficient the plant is; it will be difficult for it to compete against foreign competition.”
“The Mersey Dee Alliance has done a lot of work promoting this area, and politicians of all political parties have worked well to get our area recognised as a distinct region and to secure positive outcomes for it. The Government like to tell us that English votes for English laws is a clearcut issue, but it is not—and we have heard today many reasons why it is not. Residents of Alyn and Deeside use healthcare services both sides of the border. Our children’s hospital is the Alder Hey, which happens to be in Liverpool, and our heart hospital is based there, too. We use cancer services at Christie’s and Clatterbridge. So why should I or other Members representing north Wales be prevented from participating in decisions that will affect the people who elect us to serve them?”
“I shall make a few practical points about the proposals and explain how they may adversely affect a border area such as the one I represent. I say “border”, but to all intents and purposes, the border is not there for that area between north-east Wales and north-west England. Every day, thousands of people leave north Wales to work in England and thousands cross the border the other way. Companies such as Airbus employ 7,000 people, 60% living in Wales and 40% in England. Likewise, many people living in north Wales work at the large plants in north-west England, particularly at Vauxhall in Ellesmere Port. We are a distinct region spanning north-east Wales and north-west England.”
“Like my hon. Friend, I am a member of the Countess of Chester NHS foundation trust. I receive ballot papers that enable me to elect governors who, obviously, will do their best to represent the people of Flintshire and Wrexham. However, in my capacity as the Member of Parliament, I am to be deprived of the right to take part in that process. The Government are approaching this issue from entirely the wrong direction. We should not be aiming at creating two tiers of Members of Parliament; we should be concentrating on securing proper devolution for England, whatever that may be. It may involve an English Parliament, or it may involve some other arrangement.”
“I agree. My hon. Friend and I have talked about this many times. I may be based in north Wales and she in south Wales, but there are many similarities. Countess of Chester hospital was built to serve the needs of the people of Chester and Deeside, so it is not an England-only hospital. A third of its patients come from Wales. The previous Member of Parliament for City of Chester used to stand up in the Chamber and tell us about the thousands of Welsh patients who were fleeing across the border to use his hospital, but the truth was that it was their hospital as well. It was built to serve the people of Deeside as much as the people of Chester. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) referred to an arrangement whereby the governors of Countess of Chester, and other hospitals, would be elected from Wrexham and from Flintshire.”
“I accept that that was the result then. The right hon. Gentleman’s party was strongly opposed to devolution at that time, but it has had a bit of a turn of face, and is now promoting it. Indeed, a number of people who were very much against devolution have gone down the road to Damascus and changed their opinion, and I am pleased they have.”
“It will be up to you to decide, Mr Speaker, and good luck to you, Sir, There is clearly a flaw in the proposals, in that there does not appear to be a system allowing us to make representations on whether Wales or Scotland, for instance, should be included in the process.”
“There is no model that will fit every situation. The Mayor of London and the London Assembly, for instance, may not be able to legislate, but they have far-reaching powers in respect of transport and policing. I note that the Government are not intent on restricting the right of London MPs to vote on issues that affect other parts of England. The Government are considering devolving powers to city regions At some time in the future, will we say that MPs in those regions are prevented from taking a view on other parts of England? I do not think that the Government are saying that now, but where does it start and where does it end? A number of Members have asked what constitutes an English-only issue. No one really knows.”
“I do, and the Leader of the House said earlier today that he has already looked at this, and there are already Bills coming forward that he seems to have decided will be English-only Bills. I thought this was a matter for the Speaker to decide, but clearly the Leader of the House has decided what those Bills will be. I fear that, rather than solve the problem of English votes, we will merely fan the flames of nationalism. The Government need to make their mind up: do we want to keep the United Kingdom together with a united and equal Parliament, or not? We are at that crossroads.”
“Is my hon. Friend as worried as I am about the amount of ex-local authority housing bought by buy-to-let landlords that, unlike properties that remain in council ownership, is in a very bad state of repair?”
“My hon. Friend identifies an important point, which is the determination of what is an English issue? The point that he has just made shows that something that may appear on the surface to be an English issue actually has a great effect on Wales.”
“I and many other MPs from North Wales rightfully think that we should have a view on what happens on both sides of the border, as it affects the people we represent, but clearly the Government, with their usual approach, are trying to find a short-term solution to a long-term problem and have come up with a bit of a dog’s breakfast.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) for securing this important debate. I represent a border area, but in reality the border does not exist. As others have mentioned, many thousands of people from North Wales travel across it to go to work at Vauxhall in Ellesmere Port, and at many other employers in the north-west. Equally, many people from England travel the other way to work at Airbus, Toyota, Deeside industrial park and many other places. Our road and rail networks work east to west, but do not work particularly well north to south. The Mersey Dee Alliance has worked well to promote the region as economically important not only to North Wales but to the north-west of England.”
“We are talking about giving powers to city regions—will the MPs from those areas not be allowed to have a view? The question that no one has answered, although lots of Members have asked it, is: what is an English-only law? The Government need to decide where they stand. Are they going to treat people equally, and do they actually believe in the United Kingdom?”
“It is their hospital; it was built to serve the people of both Chester and north-east Wales—in particular the people of Alyn and Deeside. There are representatives on its council of governors from Flintshire and Wrexham. They have their view, and rightfully so. If those Welsh patients did not use it and the hospital served only the catchment area of Chester, I question whether it would be viable. Many people in Alyn and Deeside are registered with doctors and dentists on the English side of the border and vice versa. We are a particular and very different region. Where does this start and end? Are the Government saying that because policing and transport powers are devolved to the Mayor of London and the London Assembly, London MPs should not have a view on those issues—is that what we are saying?”