Sir Mark Tami
MP for Alyn and Deeside · Labour · United Kingdom
“On the point made by the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), Bellway is certainly a company that has done this. Indeed, many people did not even realise that they had a leasehold house and only found out quite a while afterwards when all the costs started to come down the road.”
“The thing that really surprised me was that Wembley is not just your average stadium; it is a purpose-built stadium that we would expect to have the best security, yet that number of people were able to get through. As my hon. Friend said, that could potentially have caused the loss of life.”
“The hon. Gentleman mentioned the work of Harefield Hospital. My son has been at Harefield for four months after having a heart transplant just before Christmas; it has been a very traumatic time. I would like to place on record the incredible support and care the hospital provides.”
“I promise the hon. Member that I will not. As someone who is very pro-nuclear, I believe that one big issue is that we have loads of reviews, and identify all the problems and what we will do, and then never actually do it. If we do get around to building a station, we build one—not a number of them; just one.”
“I have been to Finland and seen its waste repository. It is not rocket science—it is not that difficult. We have put this off for years and years. The argument always used against the industry is, “There is no answer to the waste.” Well, there is an answer, and it is straight- forward. We just need to make that decision.”
“The right hon. Lady is making an important point. This should not be a bolt-on. It should be part and parcel of the treatment. We tend to address the physical side of the illness, open the door and away we go, and we do not ask people about some of the issues that they are struggling to cope with.”
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“Given the intensity of the treatment and the long recovery period, it is not surprising that countless patients find that they either have to give up work for many months and sometimes longer, or that their carers have to take reduced working hours or even unpaid leave to shield at home and help the patient through their recovery period. Going back to work after a transplant is not always possible or safe for everyone. A lot of patients will experience long-term ill health, and the cost of being out of work is significant for everyone. Older patients may well end up taking earlier retirement, with knock-on implications even if they have a good pension. Some patients may be lucky and have a company sick pay scheme.”
“I think we all applaud the use of specialist centres, because the evidence shows that that is where the specialists are and where we get the best care, but we have to help and support people to get to those specialist centres. When we were in Alder Hey Hospital, there were patients from the Isle of Man. Clearly, we are not going to have a specialist centre on the Isle of Man, even if we had the money to do that. It just would not be practical. So we have to support people to get to the specialist centre and then support them with accommodation. The Ronald McDonald houses, which are available at a number of places, really do help families with a sick child.”
“Alongside that—again, this is from personal experience—there are issues such as graft versus host disease, where the donor’s stem cells attack the patient’s body cells after transplant. That is a condition that can carry on and flare up for many years. If it gets out of hand, it can get to a life-challenging position for the patient. Patients therefore face especially high fuel and hospital parking costs. Those without access to a car must rely on family or friends, or pay for a taxi. Others have no option but to use public transport, with all the associated risks of picking up an infection. Adding to travel costs is the fact that specialist transplant centres are often located miles away from patients’ homes, as my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East (Colleen Fletcher) made clear. That creates a problem in itself.”
“Many people feel that they have to go for cheaper options, but patients cannot do that. That is not an option for them. Patients are going to food banks, but they still have to be very, very careful. My hon. Friends touched on travel costs, which are a major concern for stem cell transplant patients and their families. In the weeks after leaving hospital, most patients need to attend follow-up appointments. I remember from our own experience that that was twice a week to begin with, but it is sometimes more often. It went down to once a week and then so many times a month. Hopefully, the process begins to wind down over a number of years. So there are costs, but it is very important that the appointments are kept.”
“Does the Minister accept that if we require patients to attend specialist centres—which I fully support; indeed, perhaps we need to go further in that regard within the NHS—we should think about how we can help those who have to travel long distances to cover their costs, given that they cannot receive that treatment at the hospital down the road?”
“As my hon. Friend will know, in the north-west of England and north Wales, leasehold houses were sold for many years. People who were told at the time that they would be able to buy the freehold for perhaps a few thousand pounds, are now being asked for £20,000 or £30,000, which they cannot afford. They are finding that selling their house is becoming very difficult. Linked with that are often very high management fees. This is really affecting them and their lives. People tell me that they do not feel that they actually own their house anymore.”
“My hon. Friend is being generous with her time. I have met many people, particularly first-time buyers, who purchased a leasehold property and were offered a discount by the developer selling the house for using its lawyer for the transaction. Surprise, surprise—the fact that it was leasehold and the pitfalls were never pointed out to them. That seems to be a common practice.”
“As I mentioned earlier, when many of these leasehold houses were sold, the purchasers were promised that they could purchase the freehold, only to find that that was not an option, the freehold was sold on immediately and freeholds were packaged up; they are financial products. I have spoken to people who get a letter every couple of months informing them that the freehold has been sold on to somebody else. This is their life, this is their property, but they feel that they do not own it because it is being bought and sold on a regular basis.”
“Low quality, expensive private rented accommodation is a problem not only in Wales but throughout the UK. Does the Minister agree that we need more council housing built to a high standard, and will he join me in praising Flintshire County Council for its excellent programme of council house building? That would be an example to the rest of the country, but we need more investment in that area overall.”
“We have heard a lot of stories today, and they are always about the very difficult cases, where people work cash in hand, or try to avoid things, and it is important that we pursue those people. We also have people coming to us who say, “I play by rules, but I am pursued all the time, because I am an easy person to get hold of, whereas some of the others are not.””
“The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to take into account the concerns of the petitioners and take immediate action to ensure that all leukaemia patients are provided with: a national hospital travel fund, a continued level of support provided by the Energy Price Guarantee until after April 2023 and wider additional financial support such as discounts/tariffs on bills. And the petitioners remain, etc. ] [P002814]”
“The petitioners therefore request “that the House of Commons urge the Government to take into account the concerns of the petitioners and take immediate action to ensure that all leukaemia patients are provided with: a national hospital travel fund, a continued level of support provided by the Energy Price Guarantee until after April 2023 and wider additional financial support such as discounts/tariffs on bills.” Following is the full text of the petition: [The petition of residents of the United Kingdom, Declares that more needs to be done to support leukaemia patients with the rising cost of living; further that patients have access to hospital travel nationwide so as to end the unfair postcode lottery of support; further that the current level of support with energy prices stays put, especially for leukaemia patients as they suffer a serious financial impact after diagnosis which is currently being exacerbated by the cost of living crisis; and further that wider support is made available in light of this disproportionate impact on leukaemia patients.”
“I rise to present a petition calling for cost of living support for leukaemia patients. I thank Leukaemia Care for highlighting how the significant financial challenges that leukaemia patients already face following diagnosis have been exacerbated by the cost of living crisis. That is something patients face on top of the physical and emotional toll of the disease. I therefore urge the Government to consider carefully the demands of the petitioners.”
“My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. If we are to go down that road, we have to do it on a scale that will make a real change. The problem with our energy policy has been that we have tended to dabble in things without putting investment in. These things are not going to happen by themselves. We need to put investment in, and we need to put it in now.”
“This crisis is facing British Steel today, but the rest of the UK steel industry may not be far behind. The Minister will know that I and other Opposition Members have raised on many occasions the cost of energy, which was a problem before Ukraine and covid—it has been going on for years and years, and this Government have done absolutely nothing about it. We need a long-term solution to the cost of energy for steel, not just these little pots of money that she keeps talking about.”
“Personally, I am campaigning for the law to be the other way around—he should not have those rights; he should be the one who needs to go to court to get any rights given back. If Jade’s family have to take a murderer to court to take his rights away from him, will they get legal aid to fight for what I believe the law should give them in the first place but unfortunately does not as it stands?”
“Following the very moving and personal case described by the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey), I would like to raise the case of Jade Ward from my seat. Jade was 27 when she was murdered by her ex-partner after years of abuse. That murder should have been the last act of that abuse, but unfortunately, given how the law works at the moment, it was not. Her murderer sits in prison, but he still has the right to be consulted about the four children that he had with Jade, who were in the house at the time she was murdered. He is to be consulted about where they go to school, whether they go on holiday and whether they have passports, which perpetuates the abuse. Jade’s parents, who are looking after the children, might well get to the stage of challenging her murderer over those rights.”
“First, I apologise for being a minute late. My hon. Friend’s last point is crucial. All these pots of money that are available are obviously welcome, but for Shotton and the whole steel industry, we need a long-term plan with long-term investment. There is a lot of talk about companies investing, but they will invest only if they can see a future, and if all we are doing all the time is just buying a bit of time here and there, until steel drops out of the news again, that is not a plan. We really need a long-term plan.”
“The industry really is at a cliff edge. I have said that in meetings. That is not crying wolf; this is not a made-up situation. It really is at the 11th hour. Unless we really step up to the mark and invest, will we lose not only the industry but the confidence of the supply chain and the customers, who will start questioning whether some of these plants will be around this time next year. Something has to change now.”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that we have seen, certainly during the covid pandemic, the ownership of cats and dogs increase because of the companionship that they offer? That is particularly important for people who live on their own. I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that it is heartbreaking for an animal to be run over, whether it be a dog or a cat, and for the owner in many cases never to find out what actually happened. Cats are pets and should be treated in the same way as dogs.”
“Certainly, if we look at the many projects that have been delivered in-house, it is not a great record of success in terms of cost and time, but we are where we are. I have one final point, which is on engagement. I have chaired many sessions, and we all know what we are like in this place: we all say we want more engagement—we want people to talk to us more—but we do not turn up to the meetings, because we have got something else to do. That is the reality of the situation: the decision has effectively been made, but I fear we will rue that decision.”
“Following on from the Olympic model, recognising that this was not going to be a project that could be delivered in one term of a Parliament and that colleagues and views change from one election to the next, we needed a structure that took the project away from us tampering and changing our mind on everything. As my hon. Friend has said, the danger is that we do not actually get anywhere with this, because it is always too difficult for one Parliament to do it. Colleagues have said, “We need to deliver it quicker, and we need to spend less money.” I would like to see how we square that circle. However, the decision has been made, so we are where we are. We will probably regret what we are doing today; I think bringing the project in-house is a mistake.”
“I think the sponsor body was very honest, and did a hell of a lot of work on this project, but it is not going to be a quick project; it is not going to be a cheap project; and it will be a project where, whatever people want, we will end up having to move out of this building. The fact is that some people do not want to move out, and now, after years of work and hundreds of millions of pounds, I would say that we are back at the beginning again, but I think we are actually further back than when we started. We also need to remember why the model of the sponsor board and delivery authority was chosen in the first place.”
“I should say that I am currently a member of the sponsor body, although not for much longer. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West said, I have had the pleasure or the misfortune—whichever way you want to look at it—to sit on, I think, every single Committee that has looked at this process since it began. I used to work with a colleague who, when he was given legal advice he did not like, would tell us to get another lawyer, and would keep doing so until he got the answer he wanted. That really sums up where we are today. The sponsor body was given a task, and I think it carried out that task very well. The problem is that certain individuals in this place—I will not name them—did not like that, and they did not like what the sponsor body came up with.”
“We all tend to talk about ourselves in this place, but it is actually about the thousands of people who work here—their safety, how they work and can continue to work. It is not just about us.”
“The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case. I have come across an instance where the sorts of properties that he is talking about have the added problem that, in order to get around some of the regulations that would normally have to be complied with, people have to sign for a property as a holiday let.”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that, although other European countries have recognised the energy costs facing the steel industry, this Government have done absolutely nothing about them? It is a major problem facing the industry. Although the long-term future might be hydrogen, as we hope it is, it will not happen without the Government—hopefully a Labour Government—putting in the investment needed to ensure it happens.”
“We can only imagine how traumatic that must be for Jade’s parents. They have already suffered the terrible pain of losing their daughter in that way, yet the process as it stands compels them to interact with their daughter’s killer. It acts as a constant reminder of surely the darkest moment in their lives. As with Jade’s boys, the children are often in the care of the family of the deceased parent. The current process effectively grants the convicted parent the means to continue the control and coercion of the family in the way they did prior to the murder of the victim.”
“Importantly, where two parties have parental responsibility, one party cannot make decisions unilaterally; they must seek the other party’s agreement. Responsibility is automatically equal so, in law, neither party’s parental responsibility is considered more important than the other’s. That stretches to even the most extreme cases, in which one parent has been convicted of murdering the other. I understand that Jade’s parents have been told that if they want to take their grandsons on holiday abroad, they need permission from the father. A convicted parent must also be consulted on issues such as where the children go to school and the medical treatment they receive. Effectively, Marsh has the right to veto decisions made by Jade’s parents and pursue a family court hearing.”
“Jade’s mother, Karen, said that she was “absolutely gobsmacked” to hear that her daughter’s killer could still have a say in the boys’ lives. If you walked down any street today, Mr Hollobone, and told people how the law works on this matter, I think they would be gobsmacked too. What exactly does the law say about this matter? When a child does not have a parent to care for them, local authorities have a duty to safeguard the child and find an interim or permanent care arrangement. The child’s relatives can seek a court order to care for them, local authorities can initiate proceedings with a view to providing for the child’s upbringing and carers can achieve parental rights through a special guardianship order.”
“Marsh was a controlling figure throughout their relationship, who would tell Jade who she could see and speak to, and what she could wear and do. When Jade stood up to him, she was killed as punishment. Jade was just 27 and lived in Shotton. She had four children with Marsh, who were sleeping nearby as their mother’s life was taken away from her. Jade’s family were horrified to learn that, despite these utterly distressing circumstances, they face the prospect of continued contact with the man who murdered their daughter. Although Marsh will obviously not have custody over the children while he serves his time in prison, despite all his appalling actions, under law, he retains parental responsibility.”
“She has been described as the sunshine in the lives of all who knew her. She was bubbly, kind and caring, and truly devoted to her four sons. The last days of Jade’s life were spent caring for her grandmother as she recovered from surgery, laughing with her friends in her garden and providing for her children. These final moments typify the life that Jade led and the kind person she was. On 26 August 2021, Jade was brutally murdered by her estranged husband, Russell Marsh, in a premeditated attack. On 12 April 2022, Marsh was given a life sentence with a minimum of 25 years in prison. After Jade ended their relationship a week before her murder, Marsh had reportedly told friends that if he could not have Jade, no one could.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered e-petition 614893, relating to suspension of parental responsibility for people convicted of serious offences. Thank you, Mr Hollobone, for giving me the opportunity to take part in this important debate. The petition calls for the automatic suspension of parental responsibility for any parent found guilty of murdering the other during their period of imprisonment. I want to place on record my thanks to Jade Ward’s family and friends and, in particular, Edwin Duggan for their dedication and work in putting together this petition, which has received more than 130,000 signatures. That is a remarkable achievement. At the heart of this debate is the life and memory of Jade Ward. Jade was an enormously loved mother, daughter and friend.”
“That is why Jade’s family—Karen, Paul and Pip—and their friends are campaigning to have the parental responsibility of a parent who is found guilty of murdering the other parent automatically suspended.”
“It is about the perpetrator controlling their so-called partner, and having control from their prison cell must give them a real buzz. If parental rights are by default retained, even in the most horrific of circumstances, when can they be restricted? The Children Act 1989 allows the guardian or holders of a residence order to go to a family court to bring a prohibited steps order against a person with parental responsibility, but the onus is still on the family to prove that parental rights should be revoked. It is expensive and time-consuming, and is an emotionally draining process for the families, who have to come to terms with the tragic loss they have just experienced.”
“I agree, because it just does not stop and there is no chance to move on—not that it would ever be easy to move on. It gives the convicted person even more weapons to use against the family of the deceased. It must be extremely traumatic for the children to know that the person who killed their mother or father knows so much about their lives, particularly if they witnessed the murder. The law surrounding parental responsibility is clearly not fit for purpose and facilitates further unnecessary emotional trauma. It helps perpetrators with a history of domestic abuse to practise their controlling and psychological abuse from inside their prison cell. We often think of domestic abuse as physical violence, which it is in many cases, but at its root is control.”
“For instance, they recognise that there are specific circumstances where it would be right to exempt someone convicted of killing the other parent from an automatic suspension of parental responsibilities. These would include where a convicted person could prove that there was a history of domestic abuse in their relationship and that, although the murder cannot be condoned, the murder trial concluded that provocation was a mitigating factor. However, the principle of shifting the burden of proof is the key message that we are sending the Government today.”
“Jade’s law would put an end to the endless cycle of psychological torment, lengthy and costly court processes and the constant harrowing reminders that the current system puts on a victim’s family and friends. Let us be clear: Jade’s law does not demand the automatic removal of parental responsibility for cases such as these; it demands an automatic suspension, giving the perpetrator the opportunity to go through the legal hoops themselves to prove that they should be entitled to those parental powers. The perpetrator will have to prove they have changed their ways and admitted to their crimes, and that they have gone on a long journey to have the right to be involved in their children’s lives, not the other way round. The petitioners recognise that there are nuances.”
“Since the beginning of the family’s campaign, the Government have stated that there is already scope for courts to exercise powers “to effectively remove all parental powers and authority in appropriate cases.” However, the Government are missing the point. Jade’s family and friends are already aware of the law as it stands and the current process of restricting parental responsibility, but they, and we, are saying that the process is wrong. The onus should be on the convicted murderer to prove they should have parental responsibility, rather than the family having to make the case for why that person should not. Jade’s law would be a simple, common-sense way of shifting the burden away from a victim’s family and friends, who have already suffered the anguish of the murder of their loved one.”
“One of the women who spoke to the Chair of the Petitions Committee found the family court system itself to be abusive. With renewed contact with her ex-partner, it became a new avenue through which he continued his controlling behaviour. A common opinion was that family courts are not equipped to deal with traumatic cases of murder and domestic abuse. Both Jade’s family and the women who spoke to the Committee also emphasised the financial pressure imposed on them by the current system. Pursuing a case in the family court is expensive, and the lack of funding for legal aid is a longstanding issue, as we all know. Victims and their families are forced into thousands of pounds of debt to restrict parental responsibility, or they face compromising on the safety of their children.”
“A woman whose former partner was convicted of sexual abuse offences asked what I think is a perfectly reasonable question: why should he be allowed to access their children when he was considered too dangerous to work with or be around other people’s children? For victims of domestic violence and for families who have lost loved ones to an abusive partner, the criminal justice process is often just too traumatic. Not only are they forced to relive harrowing experiences, but they have to come back into contact with the person responsible for them. One might think that once proceedings have ended and a criminal charge has been made and proven, they could begin to move on, but since family and criminal courts are distinct from each other, victims are forced to restart the emotional and burdensome process to restrict parental rights.”
“Indeed, allowing a child to witness or be surrounded by violent behaviour is inherently abusive in itself. A parent’s willingness to subject their child to that surely calls into question their ability to act in that child’s best interests. Yet women who spoke to the Committee felt that family courts do not recognise that. Despite all the convictions for traumatic sexual, physical and emotional abuse, the threat those men pose to their own children’s welfare does not seem to be acknowledged. Over and over again, the Committee heard that the abuser’s right to be a parent was prioritised over the children’s right to safety.”
“As Jade’s mother said: “We are going through enough without having him looming over our heads.” That really sums up the situation we find in the law today. Unfortunately, Jade’s family are not the only ones. Ahead of the debate, the Chair of the Petitions Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), spoke to survivors of domestic abuse who are experiencing ongoing issues relating to the retention of parental responsibility by ex-partners. Their experiences highlighted just how far our laws on parental responsibilities and the family court system are failing children and victims of domestic violence. One issue that came out strongly from the discussions was that violence committed against a parent is not distinct from violence against a child.”
“I agree with the hon. Lady. I will go on to talk about family courts, including some of their problems and the lack of connection between what happens there and in other courts. In this case, and indeed in many other cases, children can be effectively weaponised by the person who has committed the offence, who can carry on their control and abuse. Currently, the onus is on the family to prove why Marsh’s parental responsibility should be revoked or restricted, whereas Jade’s law calls for parental responsibility to be automatically suspended in circumstances such as these, putting the onus on the killer to go through the legal hoops of proving they deserve parental responsibility, freeing the victim’s family of the traumatic burden they currently carry.”
“In fact, it might save local authorities money, because they would no longer have to send social workers to visit convicted parents to obtain permission for things. It is a cost-free or even money-saving reform that would relieve the traumatic burden that the families of victims currently carry, and it is the morally right thing to do. To me, it is simple and common sense.”
“I hope we can move forward across the House and add a mechanism to existing legislation, such as the Children Act 1989, whereby one parent found guilty of murdering the other parent would have their responsibility rights automatically suspended throughout their term of imprisonment—which, again, would impose the burden on the convicted person. I am not prejudging what the Minister will say, but I am sure his officials will say, as they always do: “This is very difficult. It’s going to take a long time. We can’t do this; we can’t do that”. I have always believed that where there is a will, there is a way, and I am sure that the appropriate legislation can be amended to ensure that this change actually happens. The implementation of Jade’s law would not add additional costs to the public purse.”
“As I said, I believe the process should be turned round, so that it puts the onus on the convicted person, and they would have to go through the same process that the victim’s family are effectively forced to go through now. I am delighted that Labour supports this change, but I do not want it to be a party political matter because it is not. I do not think that anyone in this room, regardless of their party, would stand up and defend the current system or say: “It’s absolutely fine. I don’t know what the fuss is about.” As I have said, if we went out on the streets, almost everybody would say, “That seems to be the correct thing to do”.”
“I share in those words. To conclude, I read a statement issued by Jade’s parents after their daughter’s killer was sentenced: “Jade was the sunshine in our lives, she was the glue that held us all together. She was also a devoted mum who would do anything for her children, a much-loved friend, daughter, sister, aunty, niece and granddaughter. Jade’s whole life was ahead of her, and her death has left a void in all our lives.” Sadly, it is now too late for Jade. But her children, and others in the same situation, still have their whole lives before them. We owe it to them to ensure that the system is on the side of the victims.”
“My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case. Although she is talking about people in prison, we have probably all seen instances in our casework—thankfully at a much lower level—where relationships have broken down and children are weaponised by one or both partners. I have always found it very strange that a father might not pay towards the children’s upkeep but still has the same rights as someone who does pay. I do not understand that, although I know why it is the case: the two are not seen to be connected. However, I have always had the view that if someone does not support their children, they should not automatically think they should have exactly the same rights as somebody who does.”
“I thank the Minister for his kind comments. Does he agree that in an abusive relationship, victims often start with the perception that the perpetrator really loves and cares for them, and that that is why they have that controlling behaviour? They tell them, “I really care for you, so I need to monitor your mobile phone. I need to know exactly where you are going.” That turns into an abusive relationship. We have all known about relationships that we worry are not on an even keel. This is one of the most tragic cases that I have come across, but there are many other cases out there. This abuse is still there, is still prevalent and, in the worst cases, can lead to what we have seen.”