Sir Iain Duncan Smith
MP for Chingford and Woodford Green · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I raise the cases of Ryan Cornelius and Jimmy Lai—both United Kingdom citizens—to the attention of the Foreign Secretary, who I welcome to his position. Ryan Cornelius has been incarcerated for 19 years—trumped-up charges by a corrupt regime that is supporting a war in Sudan at the moment.”
“Has the Secretary of State been made aware of the case of Joshua Wong, a Hong Kong resident who is being prosecuted by the Administration in Hong Kong using the national security law?”
“A particular memory is that during the Maastricht debates, when, I have to confess, I and one or two others here were deeply rebellious, Ann lectured me from the Dispatch Box—she was in government—about how I should support the Maastricht treaty and the European Union, which rather worried me.”
“It was phenomenal, because she was so certain about the way that she was. Ann embodied something else: the passion that is necessary for us in this Chamber to make our arguments without the fear of any other person doing something to us.”
“We need to reiterate, and the Government and the Home Secretary need to specify, to all the social media companies that they must do something to close down the visceral, violent language that some people use in attacking others personally, as they did over Ann’s murder, which shocked me.”
“Friday was a funny day. I heard the news very early in the morning that Ann had died, and I was utterly surprised about that because she had seemed perfectly fit the last time I saw her, so I gave my condolences and spoke about it on the radio.”
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“Gentleman agree that the British Government must first always stand by those who believe and have the right documents to say that they are British citizens?”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) on obtaining this debate. I do not intend to speak; I just want to make a couple of quick points. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) will recall, one problem we discovered with the Jimmy Lai case is that until literally the past few weeks, the Government refused to accept that Jimmy Lai was a British citizen, even though he had never held a Chinese passport, and they adopted the Chinese Government’s position that he was a dual national, which he was not. That meant that our Government did not claim consular access rights to a British citizen, which was a pretty appalling state of affairs. We did have those debates—therefore, yes to British citizen; but does the hon.”
“That process has been used to obtain the release of British citizens in the past, including Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, and, I remind him, Natan Sharansky and Vladimir Bukovsky during the Soviet period. I am concerned that it will come down to that, as the only method we have available. He may not survive long if we do not do something about it. I would be grateful if the Minister took that away and asked his officials whether we will engage on this, if necessary, with a prisoner swap.”
“I am concerned, because rather than run away, Kara-Murza went back to Russia to make the case against the brutality of the war on Ukraine, rather like Jimmy Lai did in his case. He is now incarcerated on trumped-up charges, which we have known for a long time. He is very ill, and his likely death is very much at the forefront of our mind because of the murder of Navalny when he became the main target. To that end, I note that the Minister’s predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty), said that “we do not and would not countenance a policy of prisoner swaps.” —[ Official Report , 19 February 2024; Vol. 745, c. 495.] I ask the Minister to review that, because I do not think it is correct.”
“Why we got into that, I have no idea at all.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but I have to ask why it took so long for the British Government to claim him as a British citizen. The Chinese position is hypocrisy, because not that long ago the Chinese authorities did not recognise someone who was in Hong Kong as a Chinese citizen. They reversed that only a few years ago, to claim them if they were born in China as Chinese nationals or dual nationals, which they then did not respect. The problem is that the Foreign Office has got itself into a complete mess over Jimmy Lai, and it must never do that again. We should stand clearly on the basis that we recognise British citizenship and the individual’s passport. It is not for us to allow ourselves to repeat what the other nation says, in this case China, which is a disputed position from start to finish.”
“My condolences, Mr Speaker. Can I commend my right hon. Friend’s statement? It is clear, as has been said already, that all roads lead back to Tehran when it comes to the terrible violence and wars that take place in the middle east. Every country—not just Israel, but other Arab countries—fear what Tehran is doing in their countries as well, which is something we forget. We know that Iran is committing murder at home and has executed thousands of protesters while this war on Hamas has taken place. With all of that known, when my right hon. Friend sits down with our international colleagues and looks for other restrictions to place on Iran, will he please consider proscribing the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and doing so in a way that makes sure it can no longer foment extremism here in the United Kingdom as well?”
“I knew people who served in the Welsh Guards at the time—I was myself in the Scots Guards—and a number who did not come back. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) on her question. My right hon. Friend says that he is moving at pace, but the key point is that it is now decades since this happened. There is now no question but that some kind of cover-up took place. When he comes to look at those documents again, can he please ensure that, on the balance of judgment, we err in favour of opening up so that, for those who have died and those whose reputations have been trashed, we can stand up and say proudly that it was not them?”
“Can the Government now correct that, so that we all know where we are with China?”
“Tomorrow, it will be three years since parliamentarians here were sanctioned; your defence of us, Mr Speaker, has been remarkable. Although I welcome the two sanctions from the Government, it is a little bit like an elephant giving birth to a mouse. The reality is that in those three years the Chinese have trashed the Sino-British agreement and been committing murder, slave labour and genocide in Xinjiang. We have had broken churches, and, in Hong Kong, false court cases against Jimmy Lai. My question is: why two? America has sanctioned more than 40 people in Hong Kong; we have sanctioned none, and only three lowly officials in Xinjiang. Surely the integrated review should be changed. China is not an epoch-defining challenge, strange as that may be, but it is surely a threat.”
“I very much support what my hon. Friend has been saying. I agree that settling this issue and getting the right human rights for those Tamils who are suffering—many of whom have fled over here into many of our constituencies—is important. However, there is also another side of this. The need for the Sri Lankan Government, as a result of not resolving this issue, to station so many army divisions and spend so much on the military is one of the reasons why the Chinese were able to secure a 99-year lease on the Hambantota port. The Chinese are able to have their ships in that port because the Sri Lankan Government is bankrupt. That has a very big impact on the UK’s wider views on the far east.”
“(Urgent Question) : To ask the Foreign Secretary if he will make a statement on the security and human rights implications of Article 23 in Hong Kong.”
“Will the Government publish those documents, and make a statement explaining why they no longer wish to sanction Chinese officials?”
“I have two questions as a result. This legislation harmonises Hong Kong’s and China’s national security systems, with devastating consequences for human rights; it also changes business and legal arrangements. Last year, the US Government warned US businesses that they can no longer rely on the protection that the rule of English common law affords in Hong Kong. Why have the UK Government not done the same for our businesses? Secondly, we now know that Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office internal documents show that the Department paused targeted sanctions against Chinese officials in November 2023. One document states: “FCDO has paused consideration of this work indefinitely”. As one of the parliamentarians whom China has sanctioned, I must say that that is a terrible decision, and it flies in the face of the evidence.”
“I welcome the Government’s statement, but it does not go far enough. Article 23 allows sentences of up to 14 years’ imprisonment if an individual fails to disclose that another person indicated an “intention to commit treason”, which includes peaceful protest or voicing discontent. If a journalist discloses information deemed to be a “national secret”, they will be jailed for 10 years. Since the passage of the national security law in 2020, the people of Hong Kong have endured relentless oppression, in contravention of the Sino-British agreement, yet the UK has done very little to hold those responsible to account. I remind my right hon. Friend that the United States, which did not sign that agreement, has sanctioned 42 people, including senior individuals, in Hong Kong, whereas the UK has sanctioned none.”
“That is important, because the public need to know about it, so we should not be frightened of this.”
“It is a pleasure to speak to new clause 1, which is signed by a cross-party group of MPs who all believe that Parliament should have the right to scrutinise trade deals. It seeks to ensure appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of the UK’s position toward the accession of economies that are designated—that word is very specific—as “threats” or “systemic challenges”. It would achieve two things. First, the Government would be required to produce a report assessing the impact of the economy’s accession on the UK, and both Houses of Parliament would have a non-binding vote on the UK’s position regarding the accession of the economy in question. In other words, we would take the temperature of Parliament’s view, even if it disagreed with the Government.”
“I will come to that in a minute, because it does not, and that is the whole point of the new clause. In the 2023 integrated review refresh, the countries defined as threats were Russia, Iran and North Korea, while China was designated a systemic challenge. The new clause does not directly mention China, but of the eligible countries under the current integrated review, China is the only economy that has applied to join. In fact it is theoretically next on the list to go into the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-pacific partnership.”
“I enjoy the idea that my hon. Friend puts such trust in Government never to take other arrangements into consideration. We know how that works. It will be fine today with my right hon. Friend the Minister here, but there may be others in charge in future, and I am not sure I would always want to rest my defence in Ministers.”
“Serious human rights abuses are and continue to be embedded within Chinese supply chains. China is the most egregious offender in this regard, with its actions on religion in Xinjiang and in Tibet, where slave labour is also practised. Slave labour undercuts the World Trade Organisation and normal trade. Those are good commercial reasons why the membership of any country with the views China happens to have would have a real impact. China’s accession is unlikely to drive economic reform in the country. There is no political ability to drive such reform under President Xi, who has moved China further away from the spirit of the CPTPP on labour rights protections.”
“If admitted, it would be the largest economy and dominant economic and trading partner in the CPTPP, with unrivalled political influence. It could block a future US entry. As we join it is important for us to make way for the US and bring it in, which will help in a whole range of areas. China’s accession would help to cement Beijing’s desired leadership in global trade. I will remind the House that China is next up for the CPTPP, so this is not something conjured up. China’s entry also risks further increasing economic dependence on it, which is already too high, and building resilience into the Chinese economy to weather sanctioning should tensions over Taiwan escalate, which they almost certainly will. That would run counter to the UK’s strategic efforts to de-risk and maintain the status quo in the region.”
“I think the right hon. Gentleman makes my point. I sat in Government and all I can say to him is that one cannot always say that Ministers will necessarily do the right thing; rather, they will do the right thing by the Government, which is sometimes not the same. I do not mean to cast aspersions on my party’s Government by any means, but that has happened in the past. I simply want to make the point that China’s potential accession has huge implications for all sorts of things, including because of its immense economic and political influence in the region and the pressures on the UK if we were almost isolated in our observations. China is not a likeminded party—there may be other countries that are rather similar. It openly seeks to revise the liberal, open and rules-based order and establish itself as a regional hegemon.”
“The process would not require the Government to produce an impact report on China’s accession to the CPTPP, nor would it provide for a parliamentary debate or vote. Given the long-term significance to the UK of being in a plurilateral trade agreement where the biggest partner is China, it is appropriate for Parliament to be furnished with an up-to-date, accurate report, and to have the opportunity to consider the matter—after all, there is no other reason why we are here if not to discuss such important matters.”
“The current labour regulations would seem to preclude China’s accession, but the risk is there and we should not take it. An actor-agnostic approach—linking to the integrated review rather than naming any specific actor—would also enable the Government to create a threshold that is reflexive to developments rather than static. That would means that a report, debate and vote would be required only where the integrated review had designated specific economies as threats or systematic challenges. The language in the review is weak in its own right, but none the less it is there. I want to deal with the CRaG process quickly. The new clause is in line with the Government policy, but exposes a loophole in the CRaG process. There is currently no provision for a debate and non-binding vote on future accession to plurilateral trade agreements.”
“It is always kind to be referred to in another country, which leads me to wonder whether I should stand there. [ Interruption. ] I need no encouragement from those on the Opposition Benches, thank you very much. My hon. Friend is quite right; Lithuania is a tiny country, but rather bravely it has recognised Taiwan and it has come under the cosh from China as a result. I thank him for that intervention. As I said, this is not a pipe dream. China applied to join the CPTPP on 16 September 2021, and is next in line. It is widely reported that Beijing is already lobbying hard for membership, and that countries previously opposed have softened their line. Australia has done so because it has had trade problems, as we know. All that is required for Chinese accession is for other members to permit it.”
“Under UK trade policy, it is not unusual for bilateral trade agreements to be subject to parliamentary approval—free trade agreements are routinely subject to it. In response to criticism of the CRaG process in 2021, the Grimstone rule was established, whereby the Government agreed in principle to allow time to debate prospective FTAs where the International Agreements Committee has published a report. I happen to believe that there are Ministers who are keen and happy to have debates—I mention no names, but that is the case. However, I know that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office absolutely opposes them, because it hates to have any serious debates about its prerogative.”
“I agree. I was not so certain about this, so I looked at what Lord Lisvane, the one-time chief Clerk in the House, said about it. He produced a note on it, which I quote: “The issue, as I recall, was whether a Motion to approve the PRC’s accession could be amended. Commons S.O. No 24B says that when a Motion in neutral terms (in the judgement of the Chair) is tabled, no amendments to it may be tabled. I think this would probably rule out seeking to amend a simple ‘take note’ or ‘has considered’ Motion.” I want to emphasise that it is not true that a motion to take note can be amended—that was used in the other place as a defence. The CRaG process does not provide for a vote; it does not even guarantee a debate. That is why the new clause is needed.”
“I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to tempt me beyond my new clause. I always happy to look at this issue, and I believe in debate. It is vital, otherwise Governments are never held to account.”
“It will also allow the House to pressure the Government over its real concern about what they might be doing. In future, a Government from either side of the House or of whatever form may choose, under pressure from China over economic issues, to let it accede to the treaty. Who knows? I do not say that that is the mood, but it is for Back Benchers to make their point about what the Government should do and for them to take note. In that regard, I commend my new clause to the House.”
“Having a report, a debate and a non-binding vote would not determine Government policy, but it would determine the House’s view on the elements of this particular trade deal. I note that Opposition new clause 4 also seeks to look at this, but there are other issues that I will not bring up now. There are elements in the Government who believe that debate is not a bad thing, because it allows them to make their case for why such a trade deal is important. I urge the Government to be positive about this, because being positive about debate in the House of Commons is a restatement of democracy. It allows people to decide whether they agree. More importantly, this is about accession. If those who follow us in seeking to join the treaty are defined as a threat, as they are in the review, that will at least inform the Government.”
“It is, although I cannot follow my hon. Friend through Lithuania and the atolls of the far east, because I would be ruled out of order by the Chair. I hope he will forgive me, but he makes a strong point. I say gently to the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for Harrow West (Gareth Thomas), that it was a Labour Member, Lord Leong, who tabled the amendment in Committee in the Lords. Labour said that it would whip for the amendment if it were reworked to not mention China. Strangely, the new clause does not mention China, so I would have hoped that Labour would support it, but it does not. I understand that Labour has tabled its own new clause. Parliament should be able to make its voice heard on a matter of such national significance. The new clause does not overturn constitutional conventions by a long way.”
“I apologise for interrupting my right hon. Friend’s excellent speech. The key was, we were told at the time, that the move would change China, and that persuaded the Government, but what we have found is that China is now changing the terms of the debate, because it has not changed at all—it has got worse. Is that not a very good reason why we need to debate these issues whenever we can?”
“I agree. I could have taken this even further, but my point is that the Foreign Office dislikes any idea of debate and discussion. However, we have a Trade Department, which needs to be imbued with the power to ensure that debate happens. I am completely in favour of just punching through the nonsense and the poor use of the prerogative.”
“I fully agree with my hon. Friend’s wider purpose, but I come back to the point that Lord Lisvane made very clearly, which is that we still do not have the ability to debate the entry of a security risk country. He pointed out that CRaG does not do that because of its nature. I agree with my hon. Friend’s wider point that CRaG must be reformed, but we have a Bill going through the House at the moment and this is a better time to at least get a foothold in that debate rather than say that we will do it another time.”
“The point I was trying to make is that there is also an economic issue here. If China practises slave or forced labour, as it does on a wide scale, it undercuts all the reasonable labour. One good example is that the UK is desperately trying to get more solar arrays, but the polysilicon that is critical to those is mined in Xinjiang under slave labour conditions. No wonder everybody else is undercut, but we still pay for this.”
“I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. New Clause 4 Report: accession of new states to the CPTPP “(1) Before any decision is made by the Government on the accession of a new state to CPTPP under Chapter 30 of the CPTPP, the Secretary of State must publish a report assessing the potential benefits and impact of the accession of that candidate state on the United Kingdom. (2) Both Houses of Parliament must be presented with a motion for resolution on the report under subsection (1).”— (Gareth Thomas.) Brought up, and read the First time. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.”
“Nobody who watches television or a sporting event can escape the idea that this is in front of them, even subliminally, although they may not remember it. Unless advertising reform is enacted at the source of harm, the reforms will be confined to playing catch-up to the constantly evolving landscape of sponsorship, marketing and advertising, and consequently failing to reduce gambling harms. That is why I support the motion and why this matter is cross-party. We have an obligation to deal with some of the tougher issues that come our way. Notwithstanding the amount of tax these companies pay to the Treasury, the harm to human beings is the real currency of our lives, and we need to bring that to an end.”
“The current codes are ill-equipped to deal with the online-specific forms of marketing. The ASA should consider the creation of new codes as opposed to revisions of pre-existing codes. That would perhaps ensure that social media and online marketing can be effectively regulated. I am not one of those who wants to regulate everything, stop everything and take the pleasure out of what people choose. My view, however, is that, as with common law, when it is clear that harm is being done, we have an obligation to see whether we can restrict that harm so that people’s lives are not damaged—not before, not anticipating the event, but actually dealing with the harm that exists at present. The push of gambling advertising is huge.”
“Another concern at a recent session of the all-party group for gambling related harm was the failure of current ASA codes to deliver on the reduction of harm. In the opening weekend of the EPL, it was observed that 92% of content—marketing ads—sent by major gambling brands were not clearly identifiable as advertising, as has been said, and thus breached the codes, which is obvious for us to see. We know—the Minister knows—that this happens all the time, so we need to tread very carefully when we think that we can rely on agreements with the gambling industry. It is not its nature, for the most part, to abide by those agreements. It is its nature to seek to multiply the number of people that will gamble, so it will push the envelope on any agreement that is made.”
“One study found that at football matches there was a reference to gambling on average every 21 seconds. Half of the premier league’s 20 clubs and 17 of the 24 championship clubs have gambling companies on their shirts and, of course, the football league is sponsored by Sky, which has its own betting company. They all use celebrities to front up a lot of the adverts and present this as something normal and exciting. They target, for the most part, young men, but now more and more young women, who are portrayed as beating the odds. The reality is far from that. I am not against people betting if they want to bet and gamble—they can do that. The question is whether we want to see this promoted in such a way that it becomes normal. That is the critical issue that we are discussing.”
“Today, we see things that are redolent of a very unlicensed, but at the same time, desperately dangerous activity that is pushing people to spend their money and become addicted to a process that ultimately damages them and their families. Gambling marketing in football cannot be avoided by fans of any age. I say that as a season ticket holder at Tottenham Hotspur, who do not use gambling, but I watch other teams and the marketing is all over their shirts. I know the idea is to move it away from the front of the shirt to the side or whatever, but most of the evidence shows categorically that it makes no difference, because the marketing will be on the shirts that people buy. The company that the club has a sponsor becomes part of the nature of the club. That is important.”
“People say to me, “Yes, but you know, these are just adverts on shirts. Nobody remembers seeing them.” But the figures, some of which have been mentioned, are remarkable, and I will cite some of them. Ipsos MORI and the University of Stirling found that 96% of people aged 11 to 24 had seen and could remember gambling marketing messages and that they were “more likely” as a result—their words, not mine—to bet as a result of their seeing advertising on shirts and hoardings, or wherever they happened to be. More than three quarters of young people, or 78%, and 86% of adults think that betting has become an absolutely normal part of watching sport—I will say that again: watching sport. Back in the 18th century, people bet everything on all sorts of sporting events, and it had to be brought under control because of the abuses that took place.”
“Although we strongly support the measures that the Minister has introduced—I credit him for having moved this issue along more than many others have done before him—the whole idea of voluntary agreements with the gambling industry have been proved time and again to be a waste of time. All that happens is that companies are driven by the requirement to constantly renew the users of their gambling area and, most importantly, as we know, the gambling industry targets those who lose, and lose big. That is where their money is made and where their profits are drawn from, and what they must constantly do is have their idea in front of those people, to suggest to them subliminally, but still very clearly, that if they just gamble a bit more, they will win something else. That is the nature of gambling.”
“As ever, Sir Christopher, it is a privilege to serve under your stewardship. May I apologise in advance to the Members here, including the Minister and the Opposition spokesman? I have been losing my voice for most of the last week. Lots of my colleagues think that is a good thing, but I give warning that if I stop suddenly, it is because I have given up on this, although not on getting rid of gambling advertising in sport, which is important. I also may not be here for the wind-ups, because—self-evidently—I have to go to a doctor’s appointment. Alongside the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan)—my hon. Friend in this matter—I am a vice chair of the all-party group for gambling related harm.”
“Along with a group of colleagues, I went to the US before Christmas to try to persuade the Republicans there to vote this Bill through urgently—we had a marginal effect on them. The thing I said to them was, “You are facing an axis of authoritarianism; China, North Korea, Russia and Iran are all in league together and they are winning.” When I was in Ukraine, I saw the Ukrainians taking mines out with bayonets and not having the equipment they need. Does my hon. Friend agree that this has told us that none of us is ready for what war is really all about—barbed wire, minefields and artillery shells? Does he not agree that we need to do more?”
“The people there were the ones who would occasionally say to someone, “You know you’ve already bet on this. Are you sure you want to put this bet?” I have had that happen—no, I haven’t, but I have seen others get it on a number of occasions, and I have stood up for them when they have had these problems. This is not about being against gambling; it is about being against the untrammelled levels that affect those who are most vulnerable. That is the key. Let us make very clear what is not on the table. As things stand, there are no checks for on-course bookmakers, and none are planned. I would be against that should we decide to go down that road. This is important, and the same point exists for land gambling. We are not planning to check or stop that in the same way as online, which I will come back to in a second.”
“That is the case in this process, which is why I think we should be able to settle on that here. First of all, I do not have a racecourse in my constituency, but I used to have a dog track. It was a very famous dog track, but it closed because the owners decided that they could make more money through online gambling rather than allowing people to come to the stadium and bet, which I had done in the past. I have to say, I, like anybody—well, perhaps not everybody—like to go to race meets, and I like to bet on horses because it makes it more exciting. I always try and go to the ring to do that. Racecourse owners have done no good to the ring, which is really proper betting; in many cases, they have pushed it further and further away from the smart stadiums.”
“However, having spent time with the charities and people who have lost members of their family, I think one point comes across time and again: if there had been an early moment in the process when either the people concerned had realised what they were up to or others had been able to say, “Stop, stop! Where are you going with this?”, many of those disasters would not have happened. We need to look at the issue in the context of how we can stop the early onset of addiction and the process that takes place, as we would do with anything else. It is a human issue; it is not a principle of freedom versus non-freedom. During many hundreds of years in this place, we have dealt many times with issues where absolute freedoms have had to be constrained to some degree, but we limit that as much as we possibly can be.”
“Friend’s point about the need for checks to be frictionless. I agree. If there are to be checks, they need to be as frictionless and as unobtrusive as possible, because they are about the early onset of issues and problems. They should act as flags and be the nudge that says, “Something isn’t right here”, rather than an absolute shutting down, as it were. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley made three points, including whether net deposits should be used or not, that CATO checks will not work—I completely agree—and that score data is an issue here; I also agree. All those points are really important, and I recommend them to the Minister. It is important to understand that I was never really in favour of these checks originally, when I first started.”
“It is a privilege to speak in this debate under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I apologise if I have to disappear briefly at 6 o’clock for a charity meeting, but I pledge to be back before the wind-ups. The hon. Member—in this case, my hon. Friend—for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) has made most of the strong case that exists, but I want to touch on a few particular points. It seems to me that this debate should not be for or against affordability checks, and I do not think it really is. In fact, my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) invariably ends up being in the right place on some of these points. He made the case, rightly, for a debate about what levels there should be, how this all works, and who should and should not be in. I thought that was quite interesting. I want to come back to my hon.”