Ed Davey
MP for Kingston and Surbiton · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“I associate myself with the Prime Minister’s opening remarks, not least about the 25th anniversary of the horrific terror attacks of 9/11. I welcome the Government finally banning imports from illegal Israeli settlements, something Keir Starmer should have done a long time ago.”
“I thank the Prime Minister for that answer. Britain should be the safest country in the world to have a baby. We will keep raising this issue until it is the safest.”
“No mother should have to give birth in such circumstances. Does the Prime Minister agree that Musgrove Park cannot wait until 2033 for work to start on a new maternity unit? Will he offer a meeting to local MPs, so we can move it forward? And will he make fixing the maternity scandal across our country a top priority of his Government?”
“I hope at that summit the Prime Minister will negotiate a good deal for our country, our economy and our defence, and that means rejoining the single market. North Devon’s maternity unit has been closed for three weeks due to staff shortages, so women now have to travel for up to two hours to give birth.”
“The Prime Minister said yesterday that Brexit ushered in “a decade of low growth and stalled regeneration.” —[ Official Report , 1 September 2026; Vol. 790, c. 27.] He is right. Our economy is stuck in this mess thanks to the Conservatives—and the leader of Reform UK—and their terrible Brexit deal.”
“There are so many more problems in our political system: too much power in the hands of social media barons who interfere in our politics and crypto billionaires who use donations to buy influence; and too little power in the hands of our people.”
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“I reassure my hon. Friend that I will be coming to this legal point and that I wish to address the remarks made by the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), but I stress that we were not given any statutory precedent for this arrangement. Contractual negotiations between these businesses will involve a complex interaction of many different factors, such as pricing, volumes, service levels and duration. If we adopted the new clause, there is a real danger that we could end up with an IBA that would damage the post office network. That has not been discussed at length and we should concern ourselves with it. The new clause focuses on the duration of the contract and, thus, would simply not achieve our shared objective of ensuring the strongest possible commercial relationship between Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail.”
“The effect of those provisions, together with article 102 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, is that member states cannot introduce measures that would render the competition rules ineffective—that is clear. In addition, legislating for Post Office Ltd to have a guaranteed income stream would risk a successful state aid challenge being mounted. There are real barriers to doing what new clause 2 seeks to do. However, I can assure the House, as I have done previously, that we, as shareholders, will ensure that the commitment that Royal Mail made in its evidence to the Public Bill Committee—that it would conclude the longest legally permissible contract before separation—is fulfilled.”
“Let me just finish the point, because there is a legal barrier. This also addresses the point made by the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), who asked whether the European Union was involved in creating problems for legislating in the way proposed in the new clause. The legal barrier to legislation requiring an IBA is the EU’s competition framework. Legislation providing an exclusive arrangement between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd would face a significant risk of legal challenge as being incompatible with competition law. Article 101 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union contains rules prohibiting anti-competitive agreements between undertakings. Article 4(3) of the treaty on European Union obliges member states not to jeopardise the attainments of the objectives of the treaty.”
“Let us be clear that the commitment that Royal Mail has made is that the refreshed or new IBA would be entered into before separation. We, and the EU legislation that I mentioned, say that there is a problem if the Government legislate for such a long contractual arrangement. The hon. Gentleman is not paying attention to the constraint on the Government.”
“I have made it very clear that it would be open to serious legal challenge and I believe that we must take that into consideration. Let us remember that this agreement is not negotiated by the Government, as some hon. Members seem to think. It is negotiated by two independent bodies. The right hon. Gentleman, as a former Minister, ought to realise that for a Government to intervene in negotiations that involve commercially sensitive terms and to follow that by putting it in the Bill is completely the wrong way of going about things.”
“The Bill introduces the ability to bring in much needed private capital for Royal Mail to invest in its transformation, so that it can offer the best service to its customers. It is important, too, that the Post Office continues to offer the best possible service to Royal Mail as well as to other current and potential clients. I am sure that hon. Members are well aware following the debate that we have committed funding of £1.34 billion, so that Post Office Ltd can invest in its network to ensure that that happens. For example, Post Office—”
“This Government are governing. It was the previous Government who moved away from taking action on Royal Mail, who closed post offices and who did not take action. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we must make judgments, and we are making judgments. I can tell him the judgment that we will not make: the judgment that the previous Government made, which was that the way to sort out the post office network was to close thousands of post offices. We will not do that. The Government can and will help to create the conditions in which both businesses can flourish in partnership with one another. One thing is certain. A struggling Royal Mail will lead to problems for the Post Office.”
“No, not yet. For example, Post Office Ltd is piloting branches that offer greater flexibility and convenience in customer services, such as longer opening hours. The Committee heard evidence from Paula Vennells, the Post Office’s managing director, that those branches offer customers opening hours that are between 40% and 60% longer than current opening hours. That is the real change that the post office network needs. That is the change that will attract more customers and will mean that we do not repeat the appalling closure programmes that we saw under the previous Government.”
“Let me take my hon. Friend back to the point I was making about articles 101, 4(3) and 102. The point I was making was not that the two businesses cannot have an IBA. That is clear—they have one now, and they have committed to refreshing it or to creating a new one. I gave the commitment to the House today that we, as shareholder, will ensure that that happens before there is a separation. I hope that my hon. Friend will welcome that. The risk is about legislation and I hope he understands that point.”
“My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Let us be absolutely clear: the problem with Royal Mail has been the inaction, particularly from the previous Government, that has led to its parlous state. We do not want to create significant risks of legal challenge that would undermine the modernisation and investment process that Royal Mail needs to deliver on the universal postal service and that we need to ensure that the post office network does not have to face the closure programmes we saw under the previous Government.”
“The commitment that I have given today is what the hon. Gentleman and his Select Committee were seeking. That is what I understood from his very well-informed remarks earlier. Now that he has intervened, let me tell him that his point about mobile vans is dealt with in Government amendment 5, which I hope we will get to. There are currently 39 such vans serving 240 communities, and Post Office Ltd has no plans to increase its fleet of vans. I hope that gives him some reassurance on his very detailed point.”
“Friend the Member for Colchester is well intentioned and I have always been impressed by how he, the voice of Colchester, campaigns for his constituents, not least for important services such as local post offices. I hope that I have reassured him that his new clause is not needed to support our precious post office network.”
“The hon. Gentleman is a new Member of the House and he might know that there are various protocols on publishing legal advice. Our policies on post offices will ensure that people will continue to see their local post office as the natural and convenient place to access Royal Mail products, and Royal Mail’s management continues to see the Post Office as its retail partner of choice. It is by attracting customers for all types of services that the Post Office will ensure its future success. With this Government’s funding and support, as laid out in our policy document, which sets out a whole range of ideas for new Government services, we will be able to achieve those objectives. The new clause tabled by my hon.”
“The hon. Lady cannot have been listening. What I have said today is absolutely clear: a commitment has been made to the Committee on which she served by the chairman and the chief executive of Royal Mail that they will refresh the IBA or have a new one before the separation. I am saying that the Government, as the shareholder, will make that happen, and she ought to welcome that.”
“I think I should definitely be advised to share neither those private conversations nor the legal advice that may or may not have been given to Moya Greene and that she may or may not have shared with me. The wider policies of the Government for the post office network will prevent major closure programmes. We have heard no apology today for all the closures of post offices under the previous Government. We saw 7,000 post offices close under the Labour Government. This Government have policies to make sure that that will not happen again, and I urge my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester to withdraw the new clause.”
“The hon. Gentleman will know from the debate in Committee that there is the potential for Ofcom to impose a fine on the universal service provider of up to 10% of its turnover. At the moment, that would be a fine of £650 million. Does he not think that that is a disincentive?”
“Section 3(4)(l) of the Communications Act 2003 requires Ofcom to take into account the needs of “the different interests of persons in the different parts of the United Kingdom...and of persons living in rural and in urban areas”. We are extending those duties to Ofcom’s functions in respect of post: “communications matters” in section 3(1)(a) of the 2003 Act will now include postal matters.”
“On the basis of Royal Mail’s current turnover, that would be more than £650 million. He seems to think that it is an insignificant return, but I disagree. Moreover, he did not mention—although I had told him in Committee—that there are additional protections in company law relating to what the pensions regulator can do. In my view, new clause 4 is not needed. We already have the necessary protections, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will at last be reassured and will withdraw the new clause. In amendment 11, the hon. Gentleman seeks to ensure that the needs of small businesses in rural and remote areas continue to be met, and are taken into account in all of Ofcom’s actions relating to postal services. I agree that both those protections are vital, but again he need not worry, as there is already ample provision in the Bill.”
“I told him that the Bill gives Ofcom the power to impose a designated universal service provider condition similar to the condition 16 requirement in Royal Mail’s existing licence. That prevents Royal Mail from doing anything—such as transferring assets or paying out dividends—that “creates any significant risk that the necessary resources will not be available” to carry on its business. If the universal service provider put itself in breach of its obligations through, for example, the sale of part or all of the business in a way that no longer enabled it to fulfil the universal service requirement, Ofcom could take enforcement action. As I said in my intervention on the hon. Gentleman’s speech, it could fine the universal service provider up to 10% of the turnover of its postal business in the relevant year.”
“Because of the shortage of time, I shall begin with a brief overview of our reaction to the new clause and amendments. The Government have introduced more protections for the universal service than currently exist, and more than the last Government proposed in their 2009 Postal Services Bill. We have strengthened the existing protections. The amendments tabled by the hon. Members for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) and, indeed, for Angus (Mr Weir) would weaken those protections, and would serve the consumer very poorly. I entirely see what the hon. Member for Angus is getting at in new clause 4. As he said, we discussed it in Committee. As I told him then, however, I believe that the Bill provides the protection that is needed.”
“The simple answer is because it makes commercial sense. That is the best incentive for any business. This Government are committed to reducing regulatory burdens. We do not wish to impose regulation where it is not necessary. It is vital that businesses can operate free from the spectre of excessive bureaucracy that serves no purpose.”
“The amendments would impose additional regulation on top of that gold-plating, and thus risk undermining the provision of the very universal service that we are trying to save. In its evidence to the Public Bill Committee, Royal Mail spoke of the need for deregulation in competitive parts of the market if it is to survive. The most competitive part of the market is packets and parcels. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is not looking at what is happening. Royal Mail is competitive, and despite there being no requirement, it is delivering six days a week. The 2000 Act does not require that, nor does the European postal service directive. The last Government did not seek to require it either, and Postcomm does not require it in its licence. Yet Royal Mail provides a six-day-a-week parcel service. Why does it do that?”
“It has been well established that, in the Act, “persons” also means businesses. On amendments 12 and 13, Members will be aware that the market is undergoing big structural changes. Volumes have declined by 15% in the last five years, and Richard Hooper predicted declines of up to 40% in the next few years. Surely we all agree that action must be taken to protect the universal postal service. Clause 30 sets out the minimum requirements of that service, which are identical to those set out in the Postal Services Act 2000. They are also identical to the minimum requirements proposed by the Opposition in their 2009 Bill. They gold-plate the minimum requirements of the European postal services directive.”
“I think that is unacceptable, however, which is why we have added extra safeguards to the Bill. They include the requirement that should Ofcom make a judgment that it is in the consumer’s interests for there to be changes, and should the Secretary of State accept that, there would have to be votes in both Houses of Parliament. That is a very strong protection, and he ought to welcome it. Is he going to welcome it?”
“It is in the European postal service directive. Removing it would put at risk the health and safety of Royal Mail men and women. I think he should think very seriously about that. On amendments 23 to 26 to clause 33, the Bill is about protecting the universal service. Clause 30 enshrines the same minimum requirements in this Bill as are in the current legislation. The power in clause 33 to review the minimum requirements enhances the safeguards against changes to those minimum requirements. As the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) had to admit, at the moment—his Government failed to acknowledge this—there are powers for the Government in this regard. We could, by negative procedure, move the current minimum service requirements down to the level of those in the European postal service directive.”
“Where they are delivering in towns, increasingly in future, because of the roll-out of this programme, posties will use delivery trolleys. Those are being introduced as a deliberate reform in the way that letters and parcels are delivered. They are being brought in partly to ensure that posties can deliver parcels as well as letters. Given that there is already the minimum service requirement of six days a week for letters, I think my hon. Friend will be reassured on this point. Amendment 14 to clause 32 is unworkable. It would add disproportionately to the burdens on the universal service provider and it would put at risk the health and safety of hard-working postmen and women. I am surprised the hon. Member for Angus wishes to do that. The exception in clause 32 has been in place for many years.”
“I want to make some progress, as I have a lot of amendments to deal with. I was grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) for his welcome for most of the aspects of regulation in the Bill and for how we have sought to ensure that remote rural areas, particularly in Scotland, have the protections they need. However, I gently say to him that there is the requirement for letters to be delivered six days a week. If a parcel is ready to be delivered on a Saturday, Royal Mail will deliver it because a postman or postwoman would be going to that address anyway to deliver letters. I ask him to think about the practicalities of that. Where they are delivering in remote places to remote addresses, they deliver letters in vans.”
“I simply say to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) that if we were to accept them, they would remove important safeguards for competitors and consumers, and that would not be welcomed by people at large. It would undermine competition and the incentives for efficiency. Our Bill, unlike the one in 2009, seeks to change the regulatory system—”
“The problem with the hon. Gentleman’s amendments is that they are very confused. For example, in proposing a review after five years in respect of Ofcom, rather than 18 months, he does not seem to understand how the universal service regulations work. We have the minimum service requirements in clause 30, but there is also clause 29, and the reason why there is an 18-month review is to allow the universal postal service order to be brought in so that the sorts of requirements and the level of universal service that exist at present can be introduced quickly. I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would welcome that. The fact that he does not shows that, despite all our work together, he still does not understand the Bill. Amendments 29 and 30 are very important, but I am not going to be able to give them the time that they deserve.”
“I do not believe that if it remains constrained by Treasury borrowing, it could ever access the right amount of cash, with the commercial speed needed. As we privatise, we are ensuring that the employees get a good deal. Our pension plans and our employee share plans must represent the best deal on offer to any large group of employees in the UK today. I am immensely proud that Liberal Democrats in government with our coalition partners are delivering the deal on pensions that Labour failed to deliver, and I am immensely proud of the strongest legislative commitment to employee shares in any major privatisation. Given the time, although I want to say something about post offices, before doing so I shall comment on stamp design. The amendments passed by the House will ensure that Her Majesty’s head will appear on stamps in the future.”
“The other dramatic impression that one has after visiting Royal Mail sorting and delivery offices and then visiting similar sites elsewhere—as I did in Berlin, visiting a Deutsche Post sorting office—is the lack of capital investment in Royal Mail so that it can make the best of this opportunity. Since Deutsche Post shares were first sold in 2000, it has invested the equivalent of £11.7 billion and about half of that investment has gone on modernising its parcels and express business because it knows that that is the future for its organisation. We need to give Royal Mail that sort of freedom to invest in the delivery businesses of the future. We need to ensure that it can access capital, not just for its immediate modernisation plans, but well into the future.”
“Not only was I impressed by the hard work of Royal Mail employees, dealing with some of the worst weather conditions in living memory, but I was staggered by the huge increase in the volume and size of parcels. No one, none of the posties there, had seen anything like it. In recent years, the volume of internet shopping has been increasing, especially items such as books and CDs, but now it seems that the British consumer’s confidence in internet shopping has grown dramatically. That is good news for the longer-term future of Royal Mail. Although the increase in parcels will not offset the decline in letter mail, and the parcels sector is intensively competitive, there is a chance—an opportunity —for Royal Mail to grow.”
“Above all, it is better for the universal postal service and Royal Mail, as our Bill takes a more flexible approach to regulation and is much better structured to attract the private investment that this business desperately needs. The House should have no doubt about the overriding aim of the Bill. It is to protect the universal postal service. I do not believe it is possible to protect that in the public sector any longer—at least, not without ever-increasing levels of taxpayer subsidy, which even Lord Mandelson, as he doled out largesse in the run-up to the last election, would have baulked at. Royal Mail needs to modernise. Its business is changing with the impact of the digital world. I am sure that I was not alone among hon. Members in paying a Christmas visit to local delivery offices in my constituency.”
“As they oppose the Bill, I suggest that the Opposition ought to go back to that bottom drawer. If they look hard enough, they might find the bottle that they lost in 2009. The present Government are aware of the urgency. That is why we have pressed ahead with the Bill so early in the Parliament. We will send to the other place a Bill that is significantly better than the previous Government’s 2009 Bill. It is better for employees of Royal Mail, with employee shares to give them a genuine stake in the future of the business. It is better for the Post Office, setting it free and creating the possibility for a mutual ownership model in the future.”
“Is Royal Mail yet ready for this most challenging of business trends? Without the Bill, I believe not, for despite some progress on modernisation, Royal Mail has not adapted sufficiently to that market decline. Unless we take action, that will only worsen and Royal Mail’s position will become even more precarious. Let all hon. Members be in no doubt: doing nothing is not an option. The previous Government recognised that, for in many ways the Bill is similar to that which was put before the other place by the previous Government in 2009. The previous Business Secretary was aware of the need for urgency. He said: “We cannot simply ignore these facts, or put our plans in a bottom drawer”. —[ Official Report, House of Lords, 10 March 2009; Vol. 708, c. 1068.] Unfortunately, the previous Government ended up ignoring the facts.”
“I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. We have had an excellent debate on the Bill, not just today but throughout its passage through the House. Hon. Members have rightly spent a lot of time scrutinising the detail of our proposals, but I would ask all of them to stand back and remember what we are trying to achieve. We are trying to preserve two great British institutions—the Royal Mail and the Post Office. As we heard from Richard Hooper in his reports, both to the previous Government and to this one, unless we take urgent action, the future of the universal postal service is at severe risk. Letter volumes are declining faster than anyone predicted—15% in the past five years alone—and some estimates suggest that they could decline by up to another 40% over the next five years.”
“Let me anticipate the hon. Gentleman, because the concerns that the nationalist parties expressed in their amendments are unfounded. The Bill will ensure that nationalist emblems can be placed, and be required to be placed, on stamps in future. I hope that he is reassured by that.”
“That is why we have pledged £1.34 billion of funding to support the post office network, funding that will ensure the continuation of at least 11,500 post office branches throughout the United Kingdom.”
“They are both cornerstones of British life, but they are different businesses facing different problems, and that is why separation has been so widely supported by the experts. Of course, their futures are closely linked, and we expect that they will always have a strong commercial relationship, but securing the future of Royal Mail will of course help to secure the future of the Post Office as the natural outlet for purchasing Royal Mail services. I shall say again something that I have said many times before. There will be no programme of post office closures under this Government. I have been very clear on that, as has my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary.”
“I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman how delighted I am to be able to give him that reassurance. It was a slip of the tongue. Some people have concerns about the wording of our amendments, which ensure that Her Majesty’s head will be on our stamps in future. I can assure hon. Members that, under section 10 of the Interpretation Act 1978, “Her Majesty” can be taken as “a reference to the Sovereign reigning at the time of the passing of the Act” and construed as applying to any future Sovereign, so people should not worry about that. May I turn to the Post Office? There has rightly been a lot of debate about the impact of the Government’s proposals on the network of post offices. First, I want to be absolutely clear that we are talking about a sale of shares in Royal Mail, not in the Post Office.”
“This Government are taking decisive action to tackle the problems that the previous Government ducked. I commend the Bill to the House.”
“Ofcom has a statutory duty to deregulate where it can, and we are giving Ofcom the tools to do so for the postal sector. I would like to thank all those who have been engaged in the Bill’s passage through the House, particularly Bill Committee members for their work over the past couple of months. We have certainly had some lively discussions. I would also like to thank the hon. Members for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) and for Angus (Mr Weir). Although we may not have always agreed, I am grateful to all of them for the detailed scrutiny that they have given the Bill. The coalition Government have not shied away from grappling with this issue, which has defeated two one-party Governments. This shows the Government at their strongest and most radical.”
“With our work to pilot more and more new Government services, both national and local, through the post office network, such new ideas will give local post offices a fighting chance. Let me end by returning to the universal postal service. I reiterate that this Government are fully committed to that service: six-days-a-week collection and delivery to the UK’s 28 million addresses at uniform and affordable prices. This Bill gives Ofcom an overriding duty to secure the provision of the universal service, and the tools that it will need to do so. It gives greater safeguards to the minimum service levels for the universal service, with parliamentary protections, and it creates a new regulatory regime that can bring rapid deregulation for the universal service provider where there is effective competition in the market.”
“When the Opposition scaremonger on that issue, we simply need to remind ourselves of their record on post offices. When urgency was needed to invest in Royal Mail, the only urgency the previous Government demonstrated was an urgency to close post offices. The numbers do not lie. The number of days the previous Government were in office: 4,753. The number of post offices closed in their two major closure programmes: 4,854. That is a strike rate worthy of an English batsman, not of a Government seeking to protect communities, small businesses and the most vulnerable throughout our country, yet we have had no apology for that appalling record. Through this Bill, the Post Office also has the opportunity to move to a mutual ownership model, which would give employees, sub-postmasters and communities a real stake in their post office network.”
“If the hon. Gentleman had been present for our debates in Committee, he would have found that his Opposition colleagues understand that it is impossible for any Minister in this or previous Governments to say that no individual post office will ever close. Why? Because in large part they are private businesses, and individuals can retire, decide to close their business or, of course, die. So, it is impossible to give him that reassurance. The reassurance I can give him, which his colleagues could not during the previous Parliament, is that no programme of closures will be driven by this Government. That is why we have secured the money, and the deal—the contract signed by the Government with Post Office Ltd—ensures that there will be a network of at least 11,500 post office branches throughout the United Kingdom.”
“The right hon. Gentleman is incorrect on this point. It was a Labour Minister in the 1960s—Tony Wedgwood Benn—who tried to remove the Queen’s head from the stamp. I hope that he will correct the record.”
“I am glad that he welcomed the investment we are making, although he asked what assessment we had made of the need and whether more money should be provided to ensure that that need was addressed. I have to tell him that—”
“I am pleased, however, that we were able to announce that we are maintaining funding for illegal moneylending teams so that next year there will be same rate of funding as this year. Given the levels of cutbacks that we are seeing in many programmes in my Department and across the Government, that is testament to the significance that we give to this project and the value that we place on the excellent work done by the illegal moneylending teams who have been operating so well. The hon. Gentleman raised a number of questions about our policy in respect of illegal moneylending teams, and I want to address those directly before moving on to more general remarks.”
“They have clearly made a very significant contribution. The story that the hon. Gentleman told about Paul Nicholson, who was a loan shark acting in his constituency, shows the significance of this crime and how devastating it can be for individuals and communities. This individual preyed on vulnerable consumers in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. When he was found guilty of these crimes, he was ordered to pay back almost £1 million and sentenced to an indefinite term. The judge, rightly, was very strong in his remarks about the appalling way in which this individual had behaved. That example shows the need for vigilance and the need to invest in this area. The hon. Gentleman asked us to do more.”
“I thank the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) for securing this debate because it gives me, as a Minister, the chance to deal with some of the detailed questions that he has put to the House and to talk about the general issue, which is a very serious one. He is right to say that it affects some of the most vulnerable in our society, on whom these illegal loan sharks prey. We as a Government are committed to building on the good work of the previous Government to ensure that we have people ready to tackle those criminals. The hon. Gentleman began his remarks with the tragic story of his constituent, Brian Shields, who committed suicide under the pressure of loans and loan sharks. May I send my condolences to his constituent’s family and pay tribute to the work that they have done by campaigning on this issue?”