Lord Mitchell
Member of the House of Lords · Labour · United Kingdom
“In those days, no one quite understood the long-term dangers of radiation, and protection was rudimentary. For him, it was fatal. In 1998, he was diagnosed with acute myeloid leukaemia, which he knew was terminal. He told me, in his usual blunt way, “I know how this story ends and it is not pretty.”
“My Lords, on 9 October 2000, my parents-in-law, Jack and Ruth Lowy, committed joint suicide. He was dying and she had decided to accompany him on this last journey. Jack was born in Bratislava in what was then Czechoslovakia. The family were Jewish and following the events in Munich in 1938, they fled to Philadelphia.”
“My wife in particular sensed that they would carry out their wishes. After all, they were both intelligent people who had carefully thought this through. There was no one to support Jack and no one on hand to help Ruth in what must have been hell for her.”
“I cannot be certain about my mother-in-law’s motivation to join him, but they both knew that his own suicide at home could well run the risk of her being charged with committing a crime as an accomplice. What I do know is that had this Bill been law, she probably would have chosen life.”
“I always felt that the issue of antisemitism on campus did not emanate solely from the students. It also came from the laissez-faire attitude of the faculty.”
“We kept the brief tight, with no references to the Middle East; we judged that there was nothing we could do or say that could make any difference. Where we could definitely make a difference was through reference to our common UK experiences and our heritage. I think we made progress.”
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“Without going into the rights and wrongs of the matter, we decided to terminate an employee just a few days over the 12-month period. Predictably, we found ourselves in a grievance situation. We were definitely in the wrong in that we had not followed the exact procedures of employment law to the letter, but we only employed five people and we were, like many charities, living in a hand-to-mouth existence. Money was always short and demands were always great. In common with many small organisations, we did not have a human resources department and our personnel policies were rudimentary. I do not think that we were much different from many other small enterprises. I am a businessman and my natural instincts are, when faced with a problem, to find a solution quickly and get on with it.”
“Just look at the Government’s reply to the Oral Question asked this morning by my noble friend Lady Worthington. The Government’s reply was all over the place and, even now, I do not know whether they do or do not support onshore wind farms. As I say, my brief is SMEs. We all know how important they are to our future growth, but also how often they lose out from government initiatives and from public-sector purchasing. The GIB could well be another grand project that will bypass the SME sector. I ask the Minister directly: will the GIB be given a clear directive to direct a certain proportion of its funding towards SMEs? A year or so ago, a small charity that I was chairman of found itself in a messy employment situation.”
“Oil prices could well fall and if they do some of the economic incentive for alternative energies will also fall. Despite that, new companies developing new green technologies are growing at a rapid pace. It is said that in Silicon Valley a third of new investment is being channelled into the green sector. Other countries such as Germany are also pursuing green technologies. The Green Investment Bank will have an initial equity of £3 billion, and we welcome the news that the Government have now obtained state-aid approval for this investment, but the Government have failed to set a date for when the bank will be able to borrow, telling us only that it could be 2015. To be effective we need certainty on this. Certainty is one of the key components of our economic recovery and there is not much of it around at the moment.”
“Maybe one benefit of Hurricane Sandy will be to drive home to one of the major centres of world finance that these natural phenomena are caused by global warming and the consequences are very painful. There have also been geopolitical reasons to develop alternative energy. Oil and gas tend to be located in inhospitable locations, often in inhospitable countries. However, suddenly things are changing, as I read that the United States is now expected to become the largest producer of oil and gas in the world by 2020. Due to new techniques in extraction such as fracking, America expects to become self-sufficient in energy very quickly. This will have a major effect on world politics and on the economics of green energy production.”
“The Green Investment Bank is a good thing and I must compliment the Government for setting it up, well trailed as it was by the previous Government. Choosing winners is a much discredited activity and we as a nation have had our fair share of companies that have been backed by the Government and subsequently failed. Choosing industries is a different matter. The green sector is one the UK should actively pursue. The desire to lessen our dependency on hydrocarbons has always been driven by several factors, with the reduction of CO 2 emissions being the most prominent. We have only to see the continuing extremes in weather patterns to know that massive forces are changing our climate.”
“My Lords, in putting together any speech I have always tried to be logical. Most of all, I have always wanted there to be a beginning, a middle and an end to what I have to say. In addition, I always try to have a linking theme—but with this speech I am all over the place. The Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill is a hotchpotch without any discernible theme. There is certainly no beginning, middle or end. It just feels that everything that defies classification elsewhere has been thrown together and given a fancy name. In vain have I searched for the kitchen sink. I have chosen to speak on three sections of the Bill: the Green Investment Bank, employment and director’s remuneration. My shadow brief is on SMEs so, where possible, I will refer to this very important sector in our economy.”
“It is always easy to say no and kick these projects into the long grass, but that is not good enough. The job of the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, will involve infrastructure. It will not be an easy task but he is the man for the job. We wish him well.”
“Young people who watched the Olympics will know that there is no substitute for hard work. What gives results? You cannot just turn up and win. It is not just about talent; it is about training, coaching, resources and a positive mental attitude. We should think about encouraging the same approach in business and the public sector. Excellence does not happen by chance. As for the champions who drove it all through, without political championing nothing would have happened. The noble Lord, Lord Coe, Tessa Jowell and Tony Blair all drove the Games forward politically. I want to finish on champions. This country needs big projects and bold initiatives. We need to address our airport problem now and not in three years’ time. We also need to address HS2, new roads, nuclear power and maybe even the Severn barrage.”
“Research after the Games shows their impact: 70% of people say that children are more positive about sport; 65% think that the Games improved London and the UK’s global image; 80% agree that LOCOG did a good job; 65% agree that the Paralympics have brought about a breakthrough in the way disabled people are viewed in the UK; and more than 80% agree that the Paralympic Games demonstrated athletes’ abilities ahead of their disabilities. This was value for money. What lessons have been learnt from the Olympic Games? I was impressed by the fact that many of the athletes, when interviewed, revealed that they had undergone severe hardships such as deaths in the family and injuries incurred at Beijing. Their grit and tenacity in overcoming adversity was incredibly impressive. They have inspired a generation.”
“Some 39.9 million people saw Channel 4’s coverage of the Paralympics—that is, 69% of the population. Two million children and young people in 85% of UK schools learnt about the Games and the values of the Olympics and Paralympics and 12 million children and young people in 20 countries took part in International Inspiration, bringing quality sport to developing nations. Some 2,000 businesses across the country won Games contracts worth £8 billion. As we all know, 70,000 Games makers were the face of London 2012, welcoming the world to the Games.”
“Eleven million people attended 1,000 sessions of world-class sport and spectacular ceremonies in both the Olympic and Paralympic Games, including 340,000 free tickets for school children, troops and other worthy causes. Fifteen million people lined the streets for the Olympic torch relay. Some 19.5 million people attended London 2012 festival events across the UK and 10 million people took part in Inspire projects—that is, community projects awarded the Inspire mark which is a version of the London 2012 brand. Some 8.1 million people visited one of 70 live sites in their communities and 51.1 million people—91% of the population—watched at least 15 minutes of the BBC’s Olympic coverage, with a peak of 28.7 million viewers for the opening ceremony; that is one in every two people in our country, including babies.”
“As the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, said, we should cast our minds back to everything that was being said about these Olympic Games—that it would cost “too much money”; that “stadiums won’t be finished”; that it “won’t be successful”; that “traffic would be awful”; that “terrorism would be a continuous threat”; that “it would just be about London and not the rest of the country”; and that “it would be taking money from other important causes”. As you know, the smart set from Notting Hill and Hampstead and areas like that all got out of London because they knew it was going to be a disaster. I will do something today that I would not recommend to any noble Lord addressing the Chamber. I will read some statistics and, if you think that you will be bored to death, you will not.”
“We have seen all the people who have been bathing in the success of the Olympic Games. However, we should think again about how we got these Olympic Games and who it was who went to Singapore to achieve it for us. It was not in fact the mayor Boris Johnson; it was the mayor Ken Livingstone. It was not Prime Minister David Cameron; it was Prime Minister Tony Blair. It was the noble Lord, Lord Coe, and, indeed, it was David Beckham. We owe all of them our thanks. Most particularly, I would like to give a tribute to my honourable friend Dame Tessa Jowell, the political champion who has pushed this whole thing through. She is a woman for whom a firm no means a qualified yes. She will not take no for an answer; anybody who has worked with her will say this.”
“But when the three of you walked into your Lordships’ Chamber, he was in the lead and you were at the back. And when you walked out, you were in the lead and he was at the back. There are not many people who can say that”. The noble Lord, Lord Deighton, and Lady Deighton are family friends. I have known him during most of these seven years and I can say with absolute certainty that this man is cool under pressure. We had a Sunday lunch just before the Olympics—I think it was three weeks before—when the G4S saga was at its height. I know that he had had a meeting at No. 10 in the afternoon but there was very little mention of it. We talked about all sorts of other things and it was delightful. How he did it, I have absolutely no idea. They say that success has many parents and that failure is an orphan.”
“I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, for securing this debate. Anyone who can get extra time in this place certainly gets my vote. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on her speech. She became the face of the Paralympics on our television. On behalf of the whole House, we must thank her for everything that she has done. Last Thursday, along with the noble Lord, Lord Coe, I had the honour to support the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, in his introduction to your Lordships’ House. We have now had his excellent maiden speech. The House of Lords is always a place for vignettes and I must share one with your Lordships today. As we were lining up for our photographs, one of the attendants said to me: “Lord Mitchell, consider this. Lord Coe has two gold medals and achieved umpteen world records.”
“My Lords, Funding for Lending is the very latest of a whole plethora of programmes announced by the Government to stimulate SMEs. But here is the truth: very little of the money is getting through to the SME community. Why is that? It is because the chosen method of distribution is through the high street banks, and their interest is more in stuffing their own balance sheets rather than advancing funds for SMEs. When will the Government realise that the banks are chronically risk-averse and ill suited to this important task?”
“I hope that the Government and noble Lords are able to support this amendment. I beg to move.”
“But the fact is that you can apply an annualised rate of interest to any loan, whether it lasts for one day or 100 years. It is the only comparative measure. Attempts to rename interest and call it a fee payment must be resisted. Payday lenders are obliged to display APR on their websites but for some reason they do not have to show it on their advertising. I think they should. Imagine a bus advertisement where one panel says, “Straight-talking money”, and the other says, “APR 4,214%”. Payday lending and loan-sharking are not going to disappear. This sector provides a vital service to those in our community who cannot get credit elsewhere. In these straitened times, it is only going to get worse. This amendment gives the Financial Conduct Authority the power to act where it sees that the terms on offer cause “consumer detriment”.”
“It told me that it would give me a decision in six minutes and that the £300 would hit my bank in 15 minutes. It also told me clearly and upfront that I would have to repay £365 in 21 days’ time. It stated, as it must, that this loan was equivalent to an annualised interest rate of 4,214%—totally transparent and totally exorbitant. Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that I did not click the “Accept” button. Payday loan companies are correctly obliged by law to display their APR. As I say, in Wonga’s case, it is 4,214%. Some are more, others are less. Most of them claim that APR is an unjust measure. “After all”, they say, “how can you apply an annualised rate of interest to a loan that lasts for just a matter of days?”.”
“It is a true 21st-century online payday loan company and is by far and away the most well known and maybe the most successful, so it made sense for me to go on to its website. It is brilliant. In terms of user friendliness, it is right up there with Apple and Google; it is very seductive. To test it out, I set out to borrow £300 for a 21-day period. It was so easy. Wonga wanted my personal details—where I live and where I work—and required details of my debit card so that it could capture the repayment after three weeks. So far, so good. Wonga was able instantly to assess my credit rating, which enabled it to accept or reject my application within minutes. It highlighted the fact that it offers straight-talking money and promotes responsible lending.”
“I know it shows my age, but the words from the song “Hotel California” keep reverberating in my brain: “You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave”. I am in a beneficial position to understand what is going on as I come from an asset finance background. In my day, we financed capital equipment to large companies, which is clearly not the same as consumer credit, but the fact is that I totally understand the workings of compound interest and I know the games that people play. Wonga is a good example to examine. The payday loan companies have taken to the internet like ducks to water—no shops, more upmarket and they have become very slick. They have turned loan sharking from a shabby backstreet activity into a recreational pursuit. I decided to do my own investigation. Wonga itself has no history of illegal loan sharking.”
“It is a world where the companies have jaunty, blokey names like “Quick Quid”, “The Money Shop”, “My Advance Loan” and “Wonga”. Need a few quid over Christmas? It is easy-peasy. But I have seen another side of the fun-filled world of easy loans. I have met people whose lives have been destroyed as they are sucked into the payday loan vortex. For some of them, it becomes a never-ending cycle of payment and repayment, payment and repayment, shuffling credit cards, borrowing from one payday loan company to meet the never-ending demands of the other, and all the time the inexorable clock of compound interest keeps ticking away. It is a Kafkaesque nightmare. Once you are in, it is hard to get out.”
“I decided to look up the definition of “loan shark”, which the OED defines as, “a moneylender who charges extremely high rates of interest, typically under illegal conditions”. The truth be told, loan shark is an ugly expression and baseball bats are unacceptable, so many of the new generation have gone upmarket and spruced up their image. They have become illegal and, like any good marketing company, they have rebranded their product. Now their offerings are called “payday loans”, and if you do not repay, it is no longer the baseball bat but the bailiff and the threat that your personal credit rating will be shot to pieces. Some 4 million people are using these loans, and the amounts advanced exceed £2 billion. This is an industry that is enjoying stratospheric growth—no double dip here.”
“Or they can do what I did, and go to Walthamstow in north-east London and there on the high street see the plethora of payday lending shops, all of which seem to be doing good business. Or they can go on to the Blackpool FC website, there to see that this football club is selling replica kits with “Wonga” plastered all over the shirts. You can even buy a baby Blackpool FC shirt so that your baby has “Wonga” on full display. Until a year ago, I knew nothing about payday loans. Of course I had heard about loan sharks and I knew that this is an illegal, murky underworld where desperate people seeking immediate cash can get it quickly from backstreet dealers. I also knew that if you did not repay your loan, nasty people with black gloves and baseball bats would come round and make you an offer you could not refuse.”
“My Lords, by any criteria, 4,214% being charged on a personal loan is outrageous. It is usury par excellence. Yet this is the rate of interest being charged by one of our largest and most popular online payday lenders. There are many others who are charging similar amounts. This amendment does not seek to ban payday lending because it fulfils a role and, for many people, they have no choice. What we do seek is to permit the Financial Conduct Authority to place a cap on the total cost of any loan if it judges that that loan will cause consumer detriment. Payday lending has gone viral. Noble Lords need only stand in Parliament Square this evening and see the advertising copy plastered on London buses—one says “Go on. Get money. Go on”, while another one says “Arrives in 15 minutes”—in order to realise that this really is big business.”
“I heard what the Minister said about compliance and licensing, but I am not sure that the issue of interest rates has been taken as the cost. It is the interest rate aspect of it that we are trying to push in this amendment, so that the FCA would have the power to control the effective interest rates being charged. I shall reflect on the comments made and perhaps return to the matter on another occasion. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.”
“He lives in a deprived borough of London where, exactly as we saw in Walthamstow, payday loan shops are to be found everywhere. To the Minister, I should like to make just a couple of comments. First, with online payday loan companies, ease of use is a significant issue. It is a bit like online betting: it is so easy to do; it is so fast. Let us think of people who perhaps do not have self-control or need the money quickly. It is frightening what people can do in the privacy of their front room to get money very quickly. It is not like it was before, when you would go into a payday loan company on the high street not knowing who was watching and perhaps not wanting to be seen there. This is between you and your computer, and it is very difficult.”
“My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this short debate. To the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, I say that credit unions are very interesting. They have started very slowly. As to the rates of interest they charge, I think that it is presently 2% per month of the capital cost and they are pushing hard for it to go to 3%. I do not know what that is when it is compounded out—I do not have my calculator with me—but it is probably about 50%. That strikes me as a reasonable amount to charge given the credit involved. To the noble Lord, Lord Flight, I say that I think that Guernsey has probably got it right and we should pay attention to it. There is a lot of financial expertise there. I thank my noble friend Lord Kennedy for his support for the amendment.”
“My Lords, small companies in particular depend on prompt cash flow—indeed, it is their lifeblood. However, it is still true that many organisations in different areas, but particularly those in the public sector, are notorious for paying late. Despite the assurances that the Minister has given, I ask the Government to issue a firm directive to all organisations in the public sector stating that payments to SMEs are to be made within a short time after the receipt of an invoice.”
“The Foreign Secretary should make a very public statement committing his Government’s support for BAS. Otherwise, others will draw their own conclusions. Finally, there are four words that buzz around my head and it is a question that I must ask the Minister: What would Maggie do?”
“I am told that the Prime Minister and other members of the National Security Council gave a very clear directive: that BAS was not to be touched and not to be downgraded in any way. Therefore, I ask the Minister: is this true? I hope it is true, because it would be the correct decision. From what I hear, however, this directive is being ignored. Again, is the Minister aware of this and is this true? We are talking about matters of national security, where vital decisions have been taken in Downing Street. We cannot allow them to be overruled by the spreadsheets in Swindon. We have a national treasure which is doing vital work to protect the planet; but we also have an outpost that represents our commitment to the South Atlantic. Boots on the snow really matter. If we downgrade Rothera, we will never recover.”
“I, too, would now like to address the geopolitical aspects of BAS. The bases in Antarctica are located in a part of the world which is very sensitive to our national interest. The Falklands and the southern islands are still in play, as they were in 1982. Oil and fish are both resources which are prized by other nations and it is not surprising that the politicians in Buenos Aires are watching our every move. As Einstein said: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”. We are on the verge of doing just that: taking an insane decision by ineptitude that could cause us much pain. Any downgrade of the BAS bases on the peninsula would be interpreted as weakness, just as it was in 1982.”
“BAS scientists are acknowledged leaders in the field, providing the UK with a powerful base for maintaining its interests and influence. Yet despite BAS’s front-ranking science and achievement, it was the egalitarian coherence and tight integration that left the most lasting impression. I also want to remind their Lordships of the geopolitical sensitivities of the South Atlantic, in which—for decades—the BAS presence has been the primary means by which the UK expresses its ongoing interests. To risk sending the slightest signal that could be interpreted as a weakening of UK resolve or an inability through austerity to maintain such a presence risks consequences of an historic nature. Far better to maintain and strengthen BAS in its current successful form for the benefits of science”.”
“She said, “I was much impressed by the excellent quality and importance of the science carried out by BAS. While the famous BAS paper by Farman and his colleagues on the discovery of the ozone hole remains by a long way the most cited research paper in the history of Antarctic science, BAS continues to be a world leader in such topics as the exploration of ice cores. However, it is in the area of environment and conservation, in addition to curiosity-driven discoveries, that BAS provides a special expertise relied upon by the British Government in its role as a consultative party of the Antarctic treaty system. The deliberations and decisions of the Antarctic treaty consultative meetings need to be based on evidence and facts.”
“It has everything necessary—doctors, plumbers, pilots and cooks—but what struck me most of all is that they are all part of an interdisciplinary scientific family. Support staff assist the scientists, scientists wash the dishes, and everyone pitches in. The base brings out the best of people, but this does not happen by chance. It happens through excellent management and charismatic leadership—at least that was the situation when we were there, but from what they tell me, it is less the case. In addition to my own thoughts on this matter, I would like to add a few words of my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland of Asthal—previously the Attorney-General—who, while Minister responsible for the Overseas Territories, visited the Antarctic with BAS. Sadly she cannot be here today.”
“Its principal work is studying the effects of seawater warming, the retreating ice shelves and the changes in marine, animal and plant behaviour as well as co-operating with our international partners to measure the dangers to our planet. Can we seriously contemplate downgrading this influential institution by merging it into irrelevance? Unless you have visited the BAS base, it is very hard to convey how special and unique the place really is. From what I hear, several of the key people involved in this proposed takeover have not even been there. Because it is so remote, and because it is also so dangerous, the people who work there are a special breed. There are scientists, of course, but there is also the full complement of support staff and others. With only one or two ships visiting a year, the base has to be self-sufficient.”
“They are not just the evangelicals in the United States or the mega energy companies; we even have some of them in your Lordships’ House. The only way we can refute them is by science-based evidence. BAS has a history of alerting the world to such global dangers. It is to the forefront of protecting the earth because it is at the vanguard of global scientific research. The discovery of the ozone layer and its depletion was a major BAS discovery. The awareness that that created about the potential dangers to our environment led to untold benefits for our natural environment. BAS’s ongoing work is world-class. Despite its relatively small size, it is at the summit in the number of scientific papers and citations it produces.”
“I listened to the forceful words of the noble Lord, Lord Willis, but what NERC has done so far hardly gives hope for the future, and to my noble friend Lord Lea I say please keep the oil companies away from Antarctica. I think I speak for the whole House, except for the noble Lord, Lord Willis, in saying that we are against this merger, and I hope that NERC is listening. My first and very direct question to the Minister is this: will she please tell us what is planned for BAS and can she assure us that its prominence and independence will be maintained? Our planet is under threat, primarily from global warming. We know it to be so, but there are many who reject the fact that global warming is manmade. Those people are powerful, and they have a great deal of influence.”
“There are three aspects that I would like to address—the science, the base itself and the geopolitical aspects—but I cannot start without addressing the proposed merger. Management by spreadsheet is a process beloved of all accountants, but it is a process that studiously avoids good will or what those accountants would call soft assets. Any creative person will tell you that once the suits get involved, the very heart goes out of the project. The British Antarctic Survey is a national treasure in a way that neither NERC nor NOC could ever be. BAS carries on in the spirit of Scott and Shackleton. To subsume BAS, to gut it, to leave it out unloved on some organisational limb would be a supreme act of folly. Only the spreadsheets could come to that conclusion.”
“Nevertheless, they both captured the very essence of our nation: gritty determination overcoming all the odds and, above all, never giving up. In 2004, I chaired an investigation on behalf of your Lordships’ House into science and treaties. We decided to visit the British base at Rothera because the base is one of the few places on earth that is owned by no one and is governed by international treaty. I was accompanied by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble—and indefatigable—Lord, Lord Oxburgh. I do not know whether it is possible to go native in a land without natives, but I went native. For all of us, it changed our lives. Certainly for me, it was the trip of a lifetime, and I think about it often. I can top the story told by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert: we had gin and tonics with ice that was 800,000 years old.”
“My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on securing this important and timely debate, and all noble Lords who have taken part this afternoon. The debate is relevant on two counts: first: our pride in celebrating Scott’s centenary; and secondly, by way of contrast, our deep concern, which has been expressed today, over the proposed imminent organisational changes at BAS. No Briton can be indifferent to the exploits of our great explorers who went to the polar regions a hundred years ago. Captain Scott’s mission to be the first man to reach the South Pole has captivated us ever since. Similarly, we remain enthralled by the heroic exploits of Ernest Shackleton. Polar exploration still fills us with awe. Both missions failed in their principal objective.”
“In that report we wrote a section on chief scientific advisers and examined closely whether DfID and the FCO in particular should have CSAs. We achieved one immediate victory in that, shortly after the report was published, DfID indeed appointed its own CSA, and the FCO followed later. The noble Lords, Lord Oxburgh and Lord Hunt, were on that committee at that time. Was the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, on that committee?”
“I must say a particular word to the noble Lord, Lord May of Oxford; he spoke for 16 minutes and I would have happily sat here for 16 hours listening to what he had to say. On previous occasions I have lamented the inability of Government to take reports issued by your Lordships’ House as seriously as they should. That is as true of this Government as it was when my party was in power. I just do not understand why a report that was published at the end of February has taken so long to come to the Floor of your Lordships’ House. I know that this is another debate for another occasion, but it is very irksome. I would also like to add that in 2004 I had the privilege to chair another Science and Technology Committee report on science and treaties.”
“My Lords, first of all I congratulate the Minister on his new position and welcome him to the job. He and I are both new boys at this and are both non-scientists so we have a difficult task in front of us. I was very fortunate to serve on the Science and Technology Committee, which reported on nanotechnology and food and was chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. I was able to witness first-hand his mastery of the subject, his team leadership and his ability to tease out every last detail, and in the report before us we see the very same competence. It is an excellent document on an important subject, and it is a tribute both to the noble Lord and to all the other Lords who have spoken in this debate today.”
“Perhaps they should be selected from scientists who have ventured into the outside world, from quasi-scientists who are not really scientists but who understand the scientific argument or even from scientists who have ventured into politics—although I concede that there are not many of them. In summary, we have a real problem. Scientific experts need to be listened to by Government, and this excellent report makes strong recommendations for CSAs to be given much more prominent positions. I believe that CSAs should also be appointed as much on their personalities as they are on their scientific skills.”
“Grand plans and glory beckoned but they went pear-shaped, and someone else was left to pick up the pieces. In that case the Government were naive in the extreme, and they were taken to the cleaners. They did not ask the questions and they certainly did not want the unpalatable answers. Those with experience knew that it would all end in tears; £12 billion later, they were right. It was a river of tears, and so it is with chief scientific advisers, who are often right but are so often ignored. My advice, for what it is worth, is this: CSAs need to be much more politically savvy and must be able to play the game.”
“The report even talks about CSAs having to kick down the door, but does that really happen? I am a pretty good door kicker, but I am the first to admit that I am a pretty lousy scientist. We must be careful in seeking attributes in people that in many ways are mutually exclusive. The report refers to the now infamous NHS IT project where the Blair Government decided to digitise and computerise the whole NHS at a stroke. It is an interesting example. At that time I was a consultant to IBM, not directly on that project but certainly on the periphery. The anticipated benefits of the project were enormous, but so too were the dangers. No businessman I know of would ever have taken on a project of that size without taking it step by step, but for the politician it was the opportunity to change everything at a stroke.”
“They use terminology that the politician does not understand and does not want to understand; he listens, but he does not hear. It is the clash of cultures, and it will be another disaster. I love the expression used in the report about the interchange between the scientist and the Minister: “Truth speaks to power”. That just about sums it up. It reminds me of the old adage: “Don’t let the facts spoil a good story”. The report spends quite a bit of time focusing on the skills that departmental CSAs must have—his or her standing in the scientific community, communication skills, public engagement, understanding the policy environment and project delivery—but I wonder how many of them actually fit the role. Lack of access is constantly cited; the Minister is too busy to see the CSA.”
“They have to fight for their views to be taken seriously and acted upon. A noble Lord mentioned sharp elbows, and they are absolutely needed. Just as we in the business world have to adapt to the realties of the world of politics, so too should scientists. The game is often murky but that is the world that politicians inhabit, and to get their attention we outsiders have to have guile and square up to them on their territory, or we will never be heard. Throughout this report we hear about scientists’ frustration at not being taken seriously—“easily marginalised”, I believe it says in the report. We can visualise it now: the Minister has had a bad day, everything has gone wrong, it is late, and his wife has told him that he dare not be home late. He is in a foul, stressed mood. Then in comes the CSA with yet more bad news.”
“We have all seen this but in this new world of social media, where a single tweet can go to hundreds of millions of people in a second, the game becomes even more intense, and it is often a nasty and brutish game. You are never completely sure who is on your side. This is not my personal experience, but it is what I have observed. Why do I say all this? Because scientists also come from another world—not another planet, but another discipline with a different temperament. Their judgments are evidence-based, their opinions do not pander to the media, their timeframe is long-term and their reputations have to stand the test of time. I am going to say something that many people might not agree with, but I am going to say it all the same: scientists need to learn to play the game. They cannot just lean on the purity of their research.”