Lord Mitchell
Member of the House of Lords · Labour · United Kingdom
“In those days, no one quite understood the long-term dangers of radiation, and protection was rudimentary. For him, it was fatal. In 1998, he was diagnosed with acute myeloid leukaemia, which he knew was terminal. He told me, in his usual blunt way, “I know how this story ends and it is not pretty.”
“My Lords, on 9 October 2000, my parents-in-law, Jack and Ruth Lowy, committed joint suicide. He was dying and she had decided to accompany him on this last journey. Jack was born in Bratislava in what was then Czechoslovakia. The family were Jewish and following the events in Munich in 1938, they fled to Philadelphia.”
“My wife in particular sensed that they would carry out their wishes. After all, they were both intelligent people who had carefully thought this through. There was no one to support Jack and no one on hand to help Ruth in what must have been hell for her.”
“I cannot be certain about my mother-in-law’s motivation to join him, but they both knew that his own suicide at home could well run the risk of her being charged with committing a crime as an accomplice. What I do know is that had this Bill been law, she probably would have chosen life.”
“I always felt that the issue of antisemitism on campus did not emanate solely from the students. It also came from the laissez-faire attitude of the faculty.”
“We kept the brief tight, with no references to the Middle East; we judged that there was nothing we could do or say that could make any difference. Where we could definitely make a difference was through reference to our common UK experiences and our heritage. I think we made progress.”
The complete record
Every one of 881 lines we hold for Lord Mitchell, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 15 of 18.
“To ask Her Majesty’s Government what initiatives they have recently introduced to make the public aware of recommended drinking levels during pregnancy.”
“My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Last May, in the Committee stage of the Alcohol Labelling Bill, the noble Baroness said words to the effect that, if by the end of 2008 voluntary labelling had not occurred, action would be taken to make it mandatory. I have been looking at labels in supermarkets, but almost in vain, as the only thing that I have seen is a small symbol that would require a magnifying glass to understand. It seems that the drinks industry has pulled the wool over the Government’s eyes, but I hope that my noble friend can assure me to the contrary.”
“So when we debate the humanitarian situation in Gaza, can we also give equivalent attention to the bombings and terror in and around Sderot?”
“As each day passed by, the rockets would fly further; they would become more accurate and their effect would be more deadly. There would be sirens constantly wailing, and children would be running for cover. Life would be coming to a total standstill. What if those rockets were being fired from the cover of mosques, blocks of flats, schools or hospitals? What would we do? How would we respond? How would we get the balance right? There is not a nation on this earth that would not defend its people in such circumstances and attack the attackers. Israel is a nation under threat. It has shown patience and restraint for three years. But once it commits, it commits hard, particularly when under attack by a terrorist organisation dedicated to its obliteration.”
“My Lords, last week over 20 prominent Muslims denounced recent anti-Semitic attacks in Britain and called on Muslims to prevent attacks on Jews predicated by the Gaza conflict. I know that I speak on behalf of the Jewish community in this country when I express my heartfelt thanks for that unambiguous and very welcome statement. No one can ignore or not be moved by the terrible deaths that have occurred in Gaza, not just those of children but of the adults as well. It is simply too ghastly for words. The population of the UK is 10 times that of Israel. Israel has had 60 rockets a day raining down on it; our equivalent would be 600 per day every day for three years. How would we react if 600 rockets were falling on Kent or Sussex?”
“At one ancient university a student said that she had been having a meeting with a member of the faculty about taking a day off for a religious event and the member of the faculty had said, “If I do it for you, I am going to have to do it for pygmies and mountain people”. That provoked stories of numbers of instances where members of the faculty had been less than helpful to Jewish students and, I would guess, to Islamic students, to women, and to people from all sorts of minorities. Members of faculties in our universities are able to say and do things that would not be permissible in the workplace or in schools. We need to address this issue to make universities a much better place for students to be in.”
“This gave people an opportunity to become much more involved and to talk about their fears and concerns. It was an overwhelming success. Members of the Jewish and Islamic societies who had never spoken to each other were exchanging mobile phone numbers and saying that they needed to get to know each other and understand each other’s religion better. That was very rewarding. Nobody in the room disagreed; nobody said that it was a complete waste of time, and that was tremendous. We have posted a video of this road show on the website that has been set up. We are encouraging students to get on blogging sites because that is the way they communicate. Anyone who wants to can reference the website at www.coexistencetrust.org.uk. I want to conclude by talking about a particular danger that we saw.”
“We talked about the way universities deal with examinations being held on religious holidays and the issue of food that is common to both religions. We both have some rather arcane and difficult dietary requirements that are difficult for other people to understand. Nevertheless, for observant Jews and Muslims, these are very important. Most of all, we talked about the real common threat to both communities of the resurgence of the BNP and everything that it is doing. Whether it is attacking Muslims today or Jews yesterday, it is the same people attacking all of us in the same way. What was most exciting was that after the debate we generally had a dinner with members of the Jewish Society, the Islamic Society, the panellists and some of the university administrators.”
“I have to confess that I was petrified. I was convinced there was going to be trouble in the audience and that nobody would turn up, but it was packed and it was a very exciting evening. We all started by talking about our family background—where we had come from, where our grandparents had come from, what their experiences had been in this country and the prejudice and hostility they had suffered in their lifetime. Not surprisingly there was a tremendous commonality. The issues that came up were interesting. We talked about being British Muslim and being British Jewish. We talked about integration. As a Jew I talked a lot about assimilation and the fact that the Jewish population in this country is declining rapidly because of intermarriage. To a lot of people that is a threat to the Jewish community. We talked about Sharia law.”
“As well as the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, the group included the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, from the Liberal Democrats, the noble Lord, Lord Hameed—a Cross-Bencher—the noble Baronesses, Lady Afshar and Lady Deech, and my noble friend Lord Janner. From the other place we had the right honourable Michael Howard, who attended one of our road shows, and the Labour Member of Parliament Khalid Mahmood. I would like to thank all of them because they gave up a lot of time travelling around the country. It is not easy to give up time but they did it very well. The format was quite interesting. We went to five universities—Oxford, Cambridge, the London School of Economics, Birmingham and Leeds. At each debate we had four panellists—two Muslims, two Jews, all parliamentarians. The first debate was at the London School of Economics.”
“The essence of the road show and the debates was to start off with parliamentarians talking about their journey, in particular the journey of Jewish immigrants who came to this country 100 years ago and that of Muslim immigrants who came here 30 or 40 years ago. There were similarities in that the new immigrants did not speak the language, they moved to the same area as other immigrants and their food and culture were different from those of British society in general. There were also similarities in how they managed to address the new country they were living in. We got together a group of parliamentarians, mainly from your Lordships’ House, but there were a couple of Members of Parliament as well. It was a cross-party group with Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, Cross-Benchers and Labour Party Members.”
“A meeting was held and I got into conversation with the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi. There seemed to be a great meeting of minds between us. We talked about how we could address this issue and the concept of a road show came into being, where we would go round various universities as parliamentarians. In any conversation between Jews and Muslims, of course, the Middle East is the elephant in the room but we wanted to keep it out because if it stayed, it was going to kill all debate about other subjects that we felt were really important. By and large, we were successful in doing this although we had a few tense moments.”
“Last May my noble friend Lord Janner buttonholed me and asked if I would like to become chairman. In a weak moment I said yes which I regretted for a week but then I thought, “You have got the job now; you had better make a good job of it”. I am doing my best and actually enjoying it very much. The Coexistence Trust set out to go around the world getting Jewish or Muslim parliamentarians in various parliaments to deal with the issues of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. My noble friend Lord Janner, in particular, was very successful in getting lots of people to sign up to this. When I took over as chairman I wanted to change the emphasis and to concentrate on the UK. It may come as a surprise to noble Lords to find out that on our campuses there are tensions between Jewish and Muslim students, and I felt we should address this issue.”
“My Lords, I struggled with the problem of whether my speech would fit into this evening’s debate, as it could well have come under the area of education. However, I am really pleased that I am speaking this evening because the subject of my speech is equality, and it dovetails with the very fine speech which the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has just given. I would like to speak about a project that I have been involved with on improving relations between Muslims and Jews. To give a bit of background, I became a trustee of an organisation called the Coexistence Trust about three years ago; it had been set up jointly by my noble friend Lord Janner and His Royal Highness Prince Hassan of Jordan. I was a trustee who attended the odd meeting and did not do very much.”
“On the other hand, the vulnerability of SaaS to a global strategic attack is not hard to imagine and not out of the question. Facebook, smart mobile phone growth, VOIP and SaaS barely featured in our report, yet today they are pointers of future IT developments. They are a measure of the ever-changing technological thrust that is occurring in this industry. Security issues are becoming more crucial and the consequences more frightening, yet Governments everywhere respond ponderously to this threat. At the very least, I hope that this report and this debate inject some degree of urgency into addressing the dangers and risks of the internet.”
“SaaS uses a technology called Cloud, where the software is located remotely—even continents away—and the customer inputs his data and receives data back from Cloud. To the customer, it has many advantages. It means that he pays by usage, not by original purchase price; it means that software is always up to date; and it means that the developer has immediate feedback from its customers. It is estimated that by 2011 25 per cent of all computer usage will be SaaS-based. As a measure of growth, Microsoft says that it is installing 10,000 servers a month for its own usage solely to deal with the SaaS explosion. Security is key. The vendors say that it is more secure to keep data on Cloud than to keep it locally, and I probably believe them. After all, that is where I keep my own personal data.”
“It is true that the software is buggy and true that I need to stand close to a wi-fi hotspot but it is an indication of things to come. In the not-too-distant future, phone calls will be made not via landlines, nor via mobile operators, but via the internet. Again, the security aspects are formidable. My final new development is a concept called SaaS—software as a service. The internet industry has frequently witnessed the arrival of disruptive technologies, and SaaS is truly disruptive. The development of fast internet connection and the proliferation of highly sophisticated hardware devices have combined to redefine how software is used. Today’s model, whereby software vendors sell their programmes on a DVD and the customers operate these programmes on their own computers in-house, is fast-changing.”
“Today there are 1 billion PCs worldwide. By 2011, I have been informed that 3 billion smart phones will be in existence. This development means that all the security problems associated with any standard PC will be significantly enhanced now that computing is becoming totally mobile. Today, almost everything that we can do on a PC, we can do on a mobile phone. Soon we will have the ability to conduct video conversations through our phones while on the move. Once again, security issues have taken on a higher level of concern. Associated with the mobile phone is the use of mobile VOIP—voice over internet protocol—such as Skype. My iPhone now has a new application called Fring. It enables me to make phone calls to any destination in the world practically free of charge.”
“My sons have more than 700 friends on their Facebook sites. For many young people it is their primary method of social contact. They use it for digital photos, e-mail, announcement of parties and other social events. It is ubiquitous. “Facebooked” has now joined “Googled” among the young’s vocabulary. However, Facebook is a security nightmare. It is easy to access such sites, which is open season for the bad guys. I am told that university admission departments in this country access Facebook to check out new students, and recruiters trawl such sites in attempts to find out more about potential job applicants. Facebook needs to do more to protect its customers. Government needs to be more aware of the dangers. The next major development since the publication of the report has been the astronomical growth of smart mobile phones.”
“Now we are beginning to reach our goal, which is wonderful, but even so, I worry about the dangers that children face. Now, more than ever, computer manufacturers have a duty to inform the public and children of the dangers of inappropriate internet use. Children should be able to access tuition programmes on their computers, which tell them about internet etiquette and usage. Indeed, if the analogy cited in our report of driving on a motorway is to be extended, there should be an internet equivalent of a driving test for children. One of the biggest changes in the 16 months since this report was published has been the explosion in social networking, particularly Facebook. It is estimated that 85 per cent of American students use it, and I bet that the percentage in this country is not much less among our students.”
“I wish to highlight a development that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced in his conference speech two weeks ago. He stated that £300 million would be made available to enable underprivileged children to have personal access to laptops and the internet. This will enable all children in this country to have access to their school work at school and at home. The objective is to make Britain’s children fully trained in the use of this crucial 21st-century technology. The digital divide, as it is called, separates children across class barriers and the announcement goes a long way to redressing the balance. I declare an interest as chair of the e-Learning Foundation, which I set up in 2001 at a time when computers in the classroom were opposed on many levels.”
“The noble Lord, Lord Broers, was correct not to accept the Government’s tepid response and to encourage the follow-up that the whole committee recommended. Eventually the Government started to take us seriously, and my noble friend Lady Vadera, to her credit, has shown a complete grasp of the subject. I hope that she is now on our side. I am sorry for my rant but this subject truly bothers me. I would like to try to inject a sense of urgency into this subject. The IT industry is like no other. It moves dazzlingly quickly. When I re-read the report this week, I became aware of how much was missing, not because of any omission on our behalf, but simply because much has happened in the 16 or 17 months since publication.”
“I must also thank him for pushing hard to secure this debate. The Government’s response lacked depth and urgency. It failed to address many of our recommendations. Indeed, from their first response, I began to wonder whether Ministers had even read the report. My view is that government pay scant regard to parliamentary Select Committee reports, especially those from your Lordships’ House. I have encountered Whitehall departments which are almost totally ignorant of the work that we do in this House. I suspect that in many cases attendance before a Select Committee is regarded as a nuisance—an irritating distraction to the Minister’s very busy and no doubt important day. This dismissive attitude diminishes the role of Parliament.”
“My Lords, the response of Whitehall and of the Government to the Personal Internet Security report demonstrates a fundamental weakness in our system of government. The Members of your Lordships’ House who sat on the investigation are highly experienced, and the witnesses who we saw, both here and particularly in the United States, have tremendous knowledge and expertise. The costs that we incurred and the time that we spent in our deliberations were significant. We produced an outstanding report on a crucial topic, of which all of us should be proud. Yet the Government’s response to our original report was hugely disappointing. I would be the first this afternoon, but certainly not the last, to thank our chairman the noble Lord, Lord Broers. He has a powerful CV and he led us with great skill, determination and technical insight.”
“Israeli Arabs can eat at any restaurant they choose, go to any cinema they want or fall in love with any person they like and marry whomever they choose. Does that sound like an apartheid state? I do not think so.”
“Apartheid in South Africa was the legalised removal of most rights from all non-white people. That is not Israel. Indeed, the opposite is true. Within its borders, Israel has an Arab minority of more than 1 million citizens, who comprise 20 per cent of the population. All Israeli Arabs and Druze have full voting rights. Eleven Arabs are vocal Members of the Knesset; the Minister without portfolio is an Arab; so, too, is the Deputy Speaker. An Arab holds a seat on the Supreme Court. It is odd—is it not?—that in Britain, where we have more than 2 million Muslims, very few hold such high offices of state. But in Israel they do. Arabs can attend any university in Israel. They comprise 20 per cent of the student population at the University of Haifa.”
“My Lords, one of the most odious aspects of the Middle East conflict is the continuous demonisation of one side by the other. Both Israelis and Palestinians are guilty, which is why so many of us, including OneVoice, are doing all that we can to bring young people of both communities together. There is a piece of graffiti that horribly and poignantly highlights this demonisation. I have seen it on the West Bank and I see it throughout Europe. It is the sign of the Star of David, followed by an equals sign, followed by a swastika. Its message is clear: by a perversity of logic, it is deemed that Israel, which was created by the victims of the Nazis, has become the new Nazi state. The same mindset equally demonises Israel as being an apartheid state.”
“My Lords, on reflection and having considered all the issues I, too, have come to the conclusion that banging someone up for two years for an infringement such as this is somewhat excessive, so I am happy to support the noble Baroness in her amendment.”
“A hundred and twenty-five years ago, my family and hundreds of thousands like them came to Britain. They were penniless, could not speak the language, ate strange foods and faced fierce prejudice. Despite this, they endured and prospered. When they came, they lived in the East End of London and the poorer districts of Manchester and Leeds. Where they trod yesterday, the Muslim community treads today. It is clear that we have much in common and that we should help each other.”
“I advocate action, so let me say what we at the Coexistence Trust would like to do. We want to be proactive. Our first action has been to form a group of Muslim and Jewish parliamentarians from both your Lordships' House and the other place. We will work together to combat the BNP. We will go to universities and schools to talk about where we can work together. Let us work together to address the issues that are common to both communities such as kosher and halal meat, family law and faith schools. We have much in common. Finally, without any sense of superiority whatever and simply because the Jewish community got there first, our immigrant story perhaps needs to be recounted so that the Muslim community can have some appreciation of where we got it right and where we got it wrong.”
“When I look at BNP election material, I see articles directed at the Asian community and, in particular, the Muslim community, but we are not fooled. All that is required is for the words Asian and Muslim to be changed to the word Jewish. The message is clear: we are their enemy; we must fight them together. Last summer, I read the chilling book, The Islamist , by Ed Husain. It tells of his journey as a second-generation Muslim; how he became radicalised and became a leading member of the extreme Islamist political action group Hizb ut-Tahrir; and, finally, how he became disenchanted. He says: “I returned to Britain because I believe it is my home. I want my children to grow up here”. That is the truth. Wherever we come from—I am a third-generation immigrant—we, too, want our children to grow up in a secure and tolerant society.”
“Noble Lords should read the propaganda that those fringe bodies put out—Dr Goebbels himself would approve of every word. The Jewish community in this country realised long ago that wringing our hands was not an option. We needed to take proactive action. The BNP and Islamic extremists may well hate each other, but they are united in their hatred of Jews. Walk past any synagogue when there is a service in progress and you will see security guards in attendance. Go to any Jewish social event and the security will be intense. The Community Security Trust is the Jewish community's answer to the threats that we face, and I pay tribute to it. Like many noble Lords here today, I am committed to interfaith dialogue. It is good to talk, but talking is not enough. It may make us feel good, but how much does it change the facts on the ground?”
“They have also needed to change their message: instead of crude racist smears, today they harness all the powers of mass media communication. It is the BNP that has mastered the use of the internet in communicating its message. In that respect, it leaves all the other parties standing. But no matter how well dressed they are, how smooth their presentation may be, no matter what technological wizardry they employ, their underlying message is still the same. It is about hatred, it is about intolerance, it is about racism and it is about total rejection of our multicultural society. Whatever their guise, they are as abhorrent as they have ever been. The BNP and its ilk are one threat. The other threat, of course, is terrorism. Islamic extremists have made no secret of how they regard the Jews.”
“It certainly makes me sleep a little easier at night knowing that my noble friend is there to be consulted and to help. He knows full well that I will seek his advice and seek it often. His work on behalf of the Jewish people is legendary, and we all owe him a huge debt for his tireless work. When the results of today's local elections become known, we may well be horrified to learn that the BNP has made significant advances. For that to have happened should concern us all. It should act as a wake-up call to the many ethnic groups in this country, and we should be working together to counter that enemy. The BNP has become very sophisticated—no longer unkempt thugs, today its members dress in suits and ties, understanding full well that they need to change their image.”
“My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hameed, is to be congratulated on introducing this debate. The noble Lord’s commitment to interfaith activity is total and his excellent and, dare I say, brave speech makes it abundantly clear that he is prepared to stand up and be counted. I have recently become chair of the Coexistence Trust, and I feel privileged that the noble Lord, Lord Hameed, is one of our trustees. I have taken over from its founder, my noble friend Lord Janner of Braunstone. I am delighted to say that he is remaining as president of the trust, together with His Royal Highness Prince Hassan of Jordan. I am also thrilled that my noble friend will continue to travel the world enlisting the support of parliamentarians against the twin scourges of anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic activity.”
“My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly. [The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) in the Chair.] Clause 1 [ Warnings on alcoholic beverages ]:”
“There in the bar—not on the glasses but with the bottles—was a clear message that stated that drinking when pregnant can affect the unborn child. There are various ways in which the message can be put across. Even in the club and pub culture, we can do that, as we did in the case of tobacco. I want to keep the provision as it is; I think that it is correct; I do not think that practicability should be an issue. That is where I stand.”
“I see no reason for any exception, even for miniatures. In any other area, you do not get an exception just because you are a small business. It is absolute: if you have to do certain things, you have to. I cannot see the issue. Just as the rules on tobacco were a 100 per cent requirement that had to be complied with, exactly the same should be true of alcohol, without exclusions. There are always issues about phasing in but, as my noble friend said, the Government will look seriously at what is the situation at the end of 2008. It is now May, and there are eight months ago, which is not long. By then, we will know exactly where we stand. On the issue of pubs and clubs, which the noble Lord, Lord Monson, mentioned, I was in a bar in New York a few weeks ago with some friends.”
“Labelling will only be effective if part of a wider package of responsible drinking communication including programmes, interventions, websites and other resources”. When it comes to it—when the independent survey to which my noble friend referred takes place—Diageo may well not have complied, because I do not think that it wants to. It is absolute: it wants in black and white what it should and should not do. I listened to what noble Lords said about the amendment. I have thought a lot about the issue of miniatures. Clearly, you cannot have a label bigger than the bottle. That is not practicable. The American example is good. You may not be able to read it, you may need good eyesight to be able to read something on a small bottle, but it is there. It is part of a method of thinking; it is part of where we stand on the issue.”
“I shall read what the managing director of Diageo Great Britain wrote; it is worth listening to: “We believe that this is crucial if we are to avoid confusion among women. If a pregnant woman walks into a shop and sees two bottles of wine, one with a pregnancy message on it and another without, we want to avoid her thinking that one is better for her than the other. A voluntary labelling agreement would carry this risk”. It continues: “We have been waiting for NICE to confirm its position. We believe that all alcohol producers should include the new guidance on their products. Now is the time for Government to make it a mandatory requirement. We should remember that information on labels is only one way to communicate a pregnancy message.”
“Since Second Reading, there have been a number of developments that are well worth mentioning. First, the National Institute for Clinical Excellence, which had in some ways equivocated on this issue, came up with a strong position regarding alcohol and pregnancy. That was very good for all of us who have supported this position. Secondly, the BMA has been consistent in its support for what we are trying to do and supports compulsory labelling. However, the most interesting thing that has happened relates to Diageo, which is a major drinks manufacturing company. It manufactures Guinness and lots of spirits, and is a leader in the industry. Its position on this is quite clear: it does not like a voluntary agreement and does not want one. It wants legislation. I went to see Diageo, and it issued a press release.”
“The Minister has given me a lot to think about. I will consider very seriously what she said. I am delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, is in her place. It was the right decision to postpone the Committee stage of the Bill. She has been very helpful. She was in hospital, and we are glad to see her on her feet. I am pleased that she is making a contribution to this. In the beginning, I was not absolutely convinced that she was on the side of the angels, but we have spent quite a bit of time trying to find a practical solution to these issues, and she brings a wealth of knowledge from her experience in the drinks industry. There are two areas where we do not agree, and I am certainly less strident than the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, on this issue. It will be interesting to see how the Committee proceeds.”
“Diageo’s exports of miniatures of Johnnie Walker Black Label to the United States have labels on them. I see no reason why that should not be the case here.”
“I do not think that any more graphic an example is necessary. On Question, amendment agreed to.”
“I shall deal first with the questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. I agree that “advice” is a better word than “warning”. Having thought about it and discussed it, I think that we are giving advice rather than issuing warnings. I feel quite comfortable with the changes and I accept the point that a government warning is for most people a red rag to a bull. It is good that the word will be removed. To answer the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Monson, I should tell him that in France a very effective pictogram is used. It shows the outline of a woman who is clearly pregnant and holding a glass of champagne, as they would in France, surrounded by a clear circle with a cross through it. It makes the point that, whether you are pregnant or thinking about becoming pregnant, alcohol should be avoided.”
“I am not quite sure how to answer the point, but I think that there is an inconsistency and I accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Monson. On Question, amendment agreed to.”
“I accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, says on this. The way the wind is blowing is clear from what my noble friend the Minister said. We already have a memorandum of understanding. If that is not complied with, it is clear that the Government will come down like a ton of hot bricks—or at least I hope they will. People in the industry will read this debate and be well aware of what is behind it all. I am happy to go along with the amendment and to lend my name to it. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 1, as amended, agreed to. Clause 2 [ Size of warnings ]:”
“If they are fined, they are fined and they will just get on with life. There should be real teeth to this provision and the wording in the Bill should stand.”
“This is another clause on which we disagree. On the fears that women might have in this country, given the amount of media publicity on foetal alcohol syndrome and the dangers of drinking when pregnant or thinking of becoming pregnant, I think that most people have begun to get the message by now. I am not sure that that is particular. I have a real problem with this amendment. I cannot see that there is any difference between a label on a packet of cigarettes and a label on a bottle of alcohol. A label is a label. There would be a legal requirement and if somebody chooses not to comply, they should face the same penalty as for tobacco labelling. As far as I am concerned, the clause should stay as it is in the Bill. As far as a fine is concerned, who would be the transgressors? They would be supermarkets, manufacturers and whoever.”
“I am very conscious of the conflict on this. Is there any way that we can defer it for further consideration before we take a position on it?”