Sir Alec Shelbrooke
MP for Wetherby and Easingwold · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. She has outlined the will of this House, but she may remember that, during the passage of the last Bill, I asked the then Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s questions to do what has happened with similar Bills in the past—on homosexuality, on abortion and on the death penalty—which…”
“I am okay, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will struggle on, thank you very much. The Minister has outlined that there is an investment programme for technology and upgrades, but with software upgrades, there is always the concern that the premise of the programmes will keep getting changed, and that can bring in delays or bugs to a system.”
“I will call Alex Mayer to move the motion and then the Minister to respond. I remind other Members that they may make a speech only with the prior permission of the Member in charge of the debate and the Minister. As is the convention for for 30-minute debates, there will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up.”
“With digital television, these days someone can just stick up a Squarial, point it in roughly the right direction and get their television channels—my wife and I have taken holidays in a canal boat and in a camper van, and we have been able to do that.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Allin-Khan. Universal accessibility is vital in this debate. I agree with much of what has been said so far, but I am concerned about the switch-off of free-to-air as it stands. In the year I was elected, 2010, there were strong proposals to switch off the FM and AM signals.”
“Most of those DAB radios are now in the bin, because DAB+ was brought out and Classic FM stopped broadcasting on DAB; my previous car did not have DAB+, so I had to go back to FM to listen. I am sure we all have certain digital radio sets that now do not pick up many channels at all.”
The complete record
Every one of 602 lines we hold for Sir Alec Shelbrooke, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 11 of 13.
“May I take the opportunity to thank my hon. Friend for reflecting on what I said in Committee and for the commitments given to me by the Government to bring about an amendment to the Bill? I thank him for listening to Back Benchers’ concerns in Committee.”
“As such, although the aims of the Bill are good, we have to make sure that we implement them over a consistent timeframe so that we take the public with us.”
“We are not going to switch off the lights in people’s homes before we switch off an arc furnace, and once it has been switched off, we cannot switch it back on. That is the big mismatch in the Bill, which is why I regret that we will not have a Third Reading debate to discuss these issues on a slightly wider basis. The rush to renewables is happening quicker than the timeline for making sure we have enough turbines, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) pointed out. My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) made very important points as well. Although the aims are there, and I think we all want to follow those aims—not being reliant on foreign energy is highly important—at the moment there does not appear to be a connection between these things as they come online.”
“In the past 18 months, there has been a huge debate about the fact that we cannot be reliant on Russian energy, and yet few Members in today’s debate have recognised the fact that we are wholeheartedly moving towards becoming reliant on China to supply our energy needs. This is a huge Bill. It is a fundamental Bill that we have brought forward as we look to the future, but it is far too big, with far too many aspects to it. It has become a bit of a hodgepodge, saying, “We want electric vehicles. We want electric heating in homes. We want to have arc blast furnaces rather than coal furnaces, so we will ban new coalmines.” I promise this House that if we move to just arc furnaces, we will destroy steel manufacturing in this country, because we do not have the ability now to produce the electricity that is needed.”
“If it was, the underground would have the cleanest air in London, and it does not, because there are a lot of particulates around it. My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) makes it clear through new clause 47 that we have to look at the sources, and new clause 37 relates to where batteries go. We keep talking about the rare earth metals that are needed. Indeed, the hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) talked about being able to maintain baseload by using various aspects of energy storage. We keep coming back to the need for rare earth metals and materials to enable that, and they come from areas of the world that we do not have an influence over.”
“It has been a pleasure to speak on the Bill on Second Reading and in Committee, but I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg) that it is a great pity we cannot have a long debate on Report or Third Reading, to expand on issues further. One of the issues that I wanted to expand on is about some of the alternatives. We keep talking about electric vehicles moving down, but hydrogen combustion vehicles offer a real opportunity to move forward. We also talk about net zero, but this has now moved to zero-emission vehicles. That rules out hydrogen combustion, so again, we are going down a rabbit hole of just having electric vehicles, but an electric vehicle is not a zero-emission vehicle.”
“The public will often see the high-level dealings of parliamentarians, leaders of countries and Ministers, and that is what gets reported. The leaders have civil servants with them, and everything is pre-arranged. The Assembly has, by its very nature, the advantage that we are all Back Benchers. Those Back Benchers come from all 31 allies and partner nations. That often allows us to build relationships and get into discussions about things that it may be more difficult to discuss at a higher level. For example, I have been in conversations, as have other members, about Sweden’s and Finland’s accession and Türkiye’s concerns. We were able to discuss with our colleagues from Türkiye where the concerns lay.”
“For instance, the Parliamentary Assembly made a large contribution to the NATO 2030 strategy, which was adopted in Madrid last year. I chair the Defence and Security Committee, in which allied nations discuss particular defence areas. There is also the Political Committee, the Science and Technology Committee, and the Economics and Security Committee—all important Committees that look at different issues, go to various countries and deal with partner nations as well as allies. They help to form the global image of which NATO needs to be aware. From there, we can feed into and build to summits, such as that one that will take place next week. As I said, the Parliamentary Assembly is a political body. The importance of soft power cannot be overestimated.”
“I also say to those watching that it is a highly experienced delegation; it includes many former Defence Ministers, Ministers of State at the Foreign Office, Secretaries of State and, indeed, hon. and gallant Members, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney). There is a wide spread and a lot of experience. I should start by saying what the NATO Parliamentary Assembly is. It was established in 1955 to bring about political accountability. Above all, we are the political body of the allies. We have political discussions about how NATO should move forward, just as we have discussions about defence—most people would envisage NATO as a defence body. Overall, we contribute to several key areas of NATO policy.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered the NATO Parliamentary Assembly and NATO Summit 2023 in Vilnius. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma. I am very grateful for this debate, because it is important that the hard work that goes on across parties gets an airing in the House. To those watching our proceedings, I want to make the point that the NATO Parliamentary Assembly is a genuine, cross-party Assembly where party politics never comes into the discussion. People seek pragmatism. As leader of the United Kingdom delegation, I have the support of the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who is the deputy leader. That will one day switch, because the Government have the leadership and the Opposition have the deputy leadership, but everybody works very closely together.”
“I am sure that most Assembly colleagues would agree that the transatlantic relationship remains strong; there is strong support for NATO on Capitol Hill, but our Capitol Hill colleagues tell us that they have to constantly inform and make representations to new colleagues about the importance of NATO and what it does. It would therefore be wrong to say to America deals with that in a bubble. It is important that we show the importance of the relationship between north America and the Canadians, who I will speak more widely about later. This is truly still a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. The strength of the partnership has served us well for 75 years, and that cannot be overestimated.”
“I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising that point. He illustrates the political nature of the Assembly, which helped guide those newly formed democracies, as they were starting to flourish and develop in the early days, to ensure that they did not fall off the path to freedom, democracy, free speech and the other things that we recognise as key planks of NATO membership. We are able to have conversations in the background with colleagues from other ally nations, can feed those back to our Governments, cross-party, and help move discussions forward. It should be recognised that the Swedes made enormous strides in addressing Türkiye’s concerns. The soft power at play in the background at committees should not be underestimated.”
“At the transatlantic forum, which many of us with leadership positions take part in—it takes place in December, at Washington’s National Defence University—American politicians saw for the first time, at first hand, the anger that had built across many European nations about the knock-on effects that the policy might have, not least the gaps that it could lead to in defence procurement and the development of technology. All Governments will often pursue an economic policy that fits with their national agenda, and not necessarily see the impacts elsewhere. The forum is another good example of soft power, because conversations can take place and can be fed back.”
“As we approach the 75th anniversary of NATO, and talk here before the Vilnius summit, I think everyone in this Room would agree that NATO is more important than at any time. Only through these alliances and partnerships will we bring about the counterbalance needed to ensure that we can carry on living in freedom and democracy, which the people of Ukraine are fighting for with their life as we speak.”
“That way, even if we do not know where the silos are, we know that there would be a response, and that would reduce the threat. If the Russians want to go down that road, let them, but they still have not got a free pass to do that, because we have the counterbalance. More positively, NATO works on interoperability, and F-35s from the UK have been landing on Italian carriers. Such steps send out important messages to our foes—to the Russians, and to the Chinese in many ways—that NATO is not just a gathering of 31 countries with their own military equipment; it is building its interoperability. The interoperability offered by the F-35 marks a fundamental change in air support in the alliance. I will conclude, to allow colleagues to contribute.”
“That again shows the strength of the alliance: we can come together to face what will become an ever-greater threat. Russia has recognised that it needs to shift the ball, and there is an interesting conversation about the capability of its intercontinental ballistic nuclear missiles and whether it would use them. We have the policy of counterbalance, but it now has developed the Poseidon torpedo, which could by all accounts make its way underwater for six days to the coast of North America, explode a mile offshore with a nuclear warhead and create a tsunami. That changes the counterbalance, which is why, again, this alliance is so important. It is also why it is so important that the UK renews Trident and the Dreadnought fleet, to make sure that counterbalance exists.”
“That arena is increasingly becoming the High North, for them and for the Chinese, who are mapping the area, working out where they can push up and where they can exploit, and where the mineral resources lie. They are also investing heavily. The Assembly has been able to identify and bring more to the fore the problems the Canadians face, not least permafrost. Permafrost is retreating in the High North, which is destroying military infrastructure, such as runways that have been relied on up to this time. NORAD—the North American Aerospace Defence Command—needs updating, and there are fuel supply depots that are not being used. We talk about the UK’s procurement struggles; we need to recognise that many allies have similar struggles.”
“We recently conducted a visit to Canada, which was very much based around its naval training, because Canada is surrounded by three oceans yet has not invested in its maritime capability in the way that we would. Its Halifax-class frigates are slightly different from ours, and are being refurbed at 30 years old; that is the same age as our Type 23s, which we are retiring, yet they are being refurbed to take another 20 years at sea. There are interesting comparisons to be draw in the alliance when it comes to procurement. We might consider what we are doing with the Royal Navy, and the modernisation and the technology that can be brought forward in the realm of the NATO maritime alliance. Russia may not be able to control the oceans in the way that the Americans can, but it is exceptionally good in the arena that it operates in.”
“They negotiated the export of grain; they are constantly patrolling the Black sea to defuse sea mines that have become dislodged; and they are very much protecting that area. Indeed, there are a lot of NATO allies around the Black sea, and they are in a tough region, as we can see from looking at their geographical neighbours. It shows the strength of the NATO alliance that we have countries from so many different parts of the world carrying out very specific roles. I turn to the work of the Defence and Security Committee. When I took on the chairmanship, I wanted to look at maritime security. The High North is coming ever more to the fore.”
“It is not just Members of the House of Commons who are members of the Assembly; five Members from the other place also make a great deal of effort. Lord Lancaster from the other place, who is on my Committee, had his report, “Troubled waters—how Russia’s war in Ukraine changes Black sea security”, published. Security in the Black sea region has changed immensely. I will take this opportunity to thank our allies in Türkiye for their incredible work; sometimes they do not get the credit they deserve. They are looked at in different ways. They enforced the Montreux treaty, which has stopped huge amounts of Russian maritime capital equipment making its way into the Black sea and creating an issue.”
“That is why countries have moved forward with a forward defence presence; for example, there is the joint expeditionary force in the Baltic sea, and the 300,000 troops being lined up along the border, so that the tripwire is not tripped. That is a fundamental difference, because until the invasion of Crimea, NATO had shifted its perspective; it went from being a cold war defence organisation to being a political organisation. It was doing exceptionally important work, as the right hon. Member for North Durham pointed out, as countries from eastern Europe joined the path of democracy. After the invasion of Crimea, there was a switch to both roles being important. It is a tribute to NATO and its leadership that it was able to adapt to the change in geopolitical circumstances so quickly.”
“Reports become the body of the work of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. One issue reported on was the rapid evolution of Baltic security after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. It has led to another very important political point. Everybody recognises article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty, which says that an attack on one is an attack on all, but it has become apparent to many—this is being discussed in our Committees—that article 5 is not an emergency call. It is not a 999 call, or a 911 call, for those in America. It is about re-enforcement—the rapid reaction force, which takes three weeks to get there. Article 3 says that a country must be able to defend itself first.”
“My committee recognised that we must have that constant supply line, and industry must have the confidence to invest; I suspect that the Economics and Security Committee recognised the same. That is a good example of the work that has been done, and fed to leaders in advance of discussions that they must have at the Vilnius summit. As we are all aware, we are involved in a war. It is not a war with NATO, but allies are supporting Ukraine, and doing everything we can to let it stand up for freedom and democracy, and to let the Ukrainian people choose how they live their life and who runs them. It is an important fight; it is the fight of democracy against autocracy and dictatorship. It has, however, posed real challenges. The Assembly is not afraid to highlight those challenges and ensure they are fed into discussions.”
“I agree with much of what the right hon. Gentleman said. That is a very good example of the fact that the Assembly is not afraid of being critical of Government policy. It is not afraid to be critical of Governments of any colour. The committees have been in the building for a long time. I was about to come to the reports produced. A report produced by Defence and Security Committee is about ensuring an industrial base for the manufacture of defence equipment and munitions. I do not think it is a state secret any more, particularly as it got leaked on the internet by somebody in America, that there is real concern about the ability to rearm. The right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) touched on the fact that industry has not created a constant supply line.”
“I notice that we have a Foreign Office Minister with us today. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the recalcitrance of the Foreign Office about proscribing the Wagner Group is disappointing?”
“Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this mindset has to be present across all Departments and all Governments at the top? There is a reason why we need warehouses full of billions of pounds’ worth of equipment, and it is not just, “Let’s get that off the accounting books.” What has been shown is just how vital it is.”
“I thank all right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. I am extremely grateful that we were able to show the work of the NATO PA. Anybody who is observing our proceedings can see all the reports on NATO-PA.int, because we are a completely open body with open source material. The reports that we produce go on to form important lessons. It is important that the public recognise the work that goes on constantly at a political level to support and defend democracy and freedom. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered the NATO Parliamentary Assembly and NATO Summit 2023 in Vilnius.”
“To help the hon. Gentleman, I merely say that my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble is unfortunately detained in the Chamber because a huge bomb factory was found in her constituency this morning and she needs to raise that on the Floor of the House. I know that my hon. Friend will be here later.”
“The hon. Gentleman said the proposals will not improve our energy security, but will he comment on what will happen to the steel industry if we are not able to produce the electricity needed to move to arc furnaces in the timeframe outlined by the clause? As I said at the end of the previous sitting, we keep identifying areas that will be powered by electricity, but we do not seem to have the ability to catch up with that. On energy security, will he comment on what will happen if we are unable to generate the electricity that the steel industry needs?”
“The hon. Gentleman is being exceptionally generous with his time. He said that exporting 85% of the coal does not add to our energy security, but does he accept that if we have energy at home and do not have to import it, that is energy security by definition?”
“I do not know, but what I do know is physics. The physics says that we have to maintain a baseload. If we are unable to maintain that baseload, other options may have to be looked at, as Germany has done.”
“Does my hon. Friend the Minister agree with me that although, as he rightly says, electricity production by coal has been as little as 1% and huge amounts of work can be done to reduce that carbon dioxide output, it is vital, with electricity generation, to maintain a baseload? As we saw recently when a gas turbine power station was turned off and we were relying on wind power, the baseload could not be maintained and the system tripped out for a large area of the country. Does the Minister agree with me that the objectives are fine, but physics and reality come in at some point?”
“I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s speech. During his comments, will he reflect on what is happening in Germany with coalmining and coal-fired power stations? He just said that it does not matter where the burning is, it still comes through, so I am interested to hear his comments on what is happening on the European continent with coal burning for power generation.”
“So far, we have talked about using electricity to make steel, the expansion of electric vehicles and charging those vehicles, and the generation of hydrogen, which also involves electricity. We do not actually have the capacity at the moment to generate all the electricity we need, and that leaves us with an interesting choice. Throughout humanity’s history, there are three things that it fears more than anything else: dark, cold and hunger.”
“That was the only positive outcome; all the other aspects of it were rejected. One of the reasons for that is the speed at which things need to happen, which creates a real burden on people. I will touch on a few themes that have been mentioned. The issue surrounding the coalmine, as the Minister described, is about coking coal for making steel. We know that almost all of what we need to achieve in the renewables sector—indeed, in anything that involves manufacturing—relies on huge quantities of steel. A huge amount has been said about the decarbonisation of that process, which, as the Minister pointed out, cannot be an entire decarbonisation, for chemical reasons. Electric arc furnaces have one key word in them: electric.”
“May I say for the first time what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq? Many hours ago, the Minister said that we need to prevent additional costs—I put it in my diary at some point. As we have said many times in Committee, this is a really important Bill, which sets the groundwork for decades to come. At the same time, we are trying to do everything at once. I have a few concerns that we are doing a bit here and a bit there, and bringing things in separately. I am not sure that we are always completely joining up the dots for what it means as a whole. I have spoken before in the House about taking the public with us, which is really important. Some very interesting polling in The Sun newspaper today showed that 65% of people agree with the idea of net zero.”
“We’ll let that one fly. Let us reflect on how well it is going up in Scotland. Therefore, any Government faced with not having enough electricity capacity to do x, y and z will always, as a priority, make sure people at home can switch their lights on, cook their food and heat their homes.”
“Why is that happening? I believe that we cannot just disregard the opening of coalmines, because this is about where we generate all this electricity from. If we cannot generate that electricity, we need back-up plans, including these mines.”
“Indeed that is true. It comes back to the physics of the situation and maintaining the base load. Wind turbines cannot be sped up or slowed down. I do not want to jump around the clauses, so I will come back to local energy grids in a moment. I raised Germany with the hon. Member for Southampton, Test—he gave a very good answer to my question, although I was not quite sure where it was going—because it has got itself into an energy generation situation that it will be difficult to get out of, especially given that it now has to import liquefied natural gas and change things because its whole gas supply system is off. It is not certain that it will be able to stop using coal in the way it wants. As the hon. Gentleman absolutely rightly pointed out, it uses some of the worst coal that can be burned—it is a highly polluting material.”
“Member for Bristol East was right to mention the Inflation Reduction Act, because it is a very important global event. Let me be blunt: this started under Trump and carried on under Biden—namely, protectionism and America first. That has left the EU with no choice but to react by putting something similar in place, and it has created a real difficult for this country. How are we going to approach this area? I do not want an extra set of handcuffs to be placed on the Government, limiting their ability to do what they need to do to stay competitive in the market. We are not able to provide $400 billion in subsidies to ensure that everything is manufactured onshore in the UK. There have been examples of companies pulling potential investments in Europe and moving them over to the United States.”
“We are trying to accelerate very quickly, and I am sure there is not a single Member in this Committee or the House who does not want us to decarbonise as much as we can. One of the reasons I mentioned Germany is that I am frustrated that we are doing a lot, and yet just over the channel there are countries that are not pursuing the agenda that we are pursuing because they say, “We’ve got to keep the lights on and do x, y and z,” following the energy decisions that they have made. This is such a big Bill and it has been discussed for so long, and I do not want the little aspects that do x, y and z to suddenly box us in. We will then find ourselves saying, “Well, we’re going to have brownouts, and possibly blackouts, because we are not able to produce replacements in time.” The hon.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady, because that is sort of the point I am making. Germany made a policy decision to switch off nuclear, and it became far more reliant on coal. It made a policy decision to import all its gas from Russia, and we know where we are with that; that did not reduce the coal either. My point is that these clauses make a policy decision that shuts off an area that could be used in the steel-making industry. We do not have the ability to generate the electricity we need to satisfy hydrogen production, electric vehicles and other new areas, and that will hit industry and homes. I keep coming back to the fundamental idea that we have to take the public with us.”
“This needs to be investigated further. Everyone has the same objectives, but we are trying to do so much through this Bill that at no point is anyone tying up the points and checking whether we can achieve them on top of generating all the electricity we need. I therefore agree with the Minister that we should not be handcuffing ourselves and that we have the option to achieve things in the longer term. My hon. Friend the Member for Workington has pointed out that jobs rely on it and that the industry may collapse if we are not able to manufacture because of a move to electricity. I fully support the Minister. That does not mean that we are taking a luddite approach by opposing this sort of thing. It is just about ensuring that we have the ability to achieve our objectives without drastic unforeseen economic consequences.”
“However, there are problems with the chemicals that need to be used to stop thermal runaway. There are reports from certain areas that it has taken 10 days to put down. Chemicals must be used, not water, yet there is nothing in planning law that states that it must take place at a minimum distance from a residential area. This is a live issue in my constituency. I fully understand where a planning application is going in relation to an electricity substation, but it is not that far from houses and the research simply has not been done on what would happen if all sorts of chemicals needed to be poured, or if chemicals were released from a thermal runaway incident. There is, therefore, a slight concern—I am not making a political comment—that planning rules could be overridden in favour of a local power plant.”
“I am sure we all agree on decarbonisation objectives, but clauses such as clause 270 and the tying of hands will lead to unforeseen circumstances. Looking at the Bill as a whole, I see a lot that we want to achieve but I am not sure that we will be able to do so within the given timeframe. I want to cast a note of caution about local generation. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam made a point about local power plants. Her speech was very interesting and I listened to it closely. A certain amount of battery storge is necessary. This is a live issue in my constituency and around Leeds and other areas of West Yorkshire. Battery storage is a developing technology. We can return to the issue of the resource supply chains of the rare earth elements and their availability.”
“If we cannot generate the electricity in time for arc furnace steel production, that industry will cease to exist. If we are subject to tariffs and are reliant on energy and resources from abroad to do that, we will not be able to achieve some of our overall objectives. We are halfway through 2023 and are moving towards 2035. The Government will have to row back on other things when reality bites, such as the non-replacement of off-grid businesses’ combustion heating systems from 2024—that includes much of agriculture—and the non-replacement of off-grid houses’ combustion furnaces after 2026. I do not think that those are achievable. I do not think the money is there for households or for businesses to achieve them, and I think we will have to give on them.”
“On a point of order, Mr Gray. I apologise to the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, but I want to make this point of order before the sitting concludes. We will shortly move on to discuss energy performance certificates and insulation of privately rented properties. In the past, I have been advised that I did not have to register the fact that my wife has a rental property and that her family have rental properties, but I seek your advice, Mr Gray, for the next sitting: will I have to make some sort of declaration before I comment on those areas of the Bill? I wanted to get that in now, so that a ruling can be made for this afternoon.”
“Further to that point of order, Ms Nokes. It is great to serve under your chairmanship. I am sure the hon. Member for Southampton, Test recalls the comments that I made in the fourth sitting when I abstained on the vote. Hansard will confirm the exact language that I used, but I believe I said that the Government had said to me that they were actively looking to table an amendment on Report. The article that has been produced today ties in with the comments that I made on the record a few sittings back, and I am relieved to hear that because it shows that we are moving forward. I do not believe there is any material change in what has happened because, as I said, I was told that the Government were actively looking at making an amendment on Report.”
“The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about energy security and the ability for outside players—certainly, if we consider this from a Chinese perspective—to take control. On energy security, does he share my concern about the fact that 98% of the materials used in renewable energy come directly out of China? Does that not in itself represent a similar security risk to the one he is outlining?”
“I remind colleagues that when nuclear power came along, it was said that it would be so cheap to produce that we would not be able to meter it. That turned out to be far from the truth.”