Hilary Benn
MP for Leeds South · Labour · United Kingdom
“As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Irish Government published on 8 June their legislative outline, entitled “The General Scheme of the Legacy of the Troubles Bill 2026”. That is intended to fulfil the commitment that the Irish Government gave in the joint framework to co-operate to the fullest extent possible with the commission.”
“Northern Ireland is a society, as the hon. Gentleman knows better than most, that has been undergoing profound change since the signing of the Good Friday agreement 28 years ago. As the famous lines go, we have a shared history, but not necessarily a shared memory.”
“The right hon. Gentleman raises a really important point, and I am grateful to him for his question. We all have a responsibility—political leaders have a responsibility to call out what was witnessed for what it is and not mince our words, and as I have already indicated, social media companies have a responsibility to ensure that such m…”
“I hope the hon. Lady will recognise that the common travel area, which is more than a century old, is of great benefit to the citizens of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Many people in Northern Ireland live their lives across that border every single day.”
“I do agree with my hon. Friend. The attack on Mr Ogilvie was truly shocking, and there was no justification whatsoever for the racist thuggery we witnessed on the streets of Belfast in the days following.”
“That was, of course, an awful feature of what we saw. One of the things I learned in my discussions was that those from the far right had taken a list of houses in multiple occupation in Belfast—a list that, in the interests of openness, was properly available on the Belfast city council website; the council has now taken it down—and used…”
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“The Northern Ireland Troubles Bill will establish a reformed, human rights-compliant Legacy Commission to carry out investigations and provide answers on behalf of families who have waited too long, enable information sharing by the Irish authorities and provide, in law, safeguards for our veterans.”
“The right hon. Gentleman will have noticed that the new Defence Secretary, who himself served in Northern Ireland, said on Monday: “This Government are absolutely committed to the troubles Bill”. —[ Official Report , 6 July 2026; Vol. 789, c. 15.] The right hon. Gentleman will not have to wait too much longer— [ Interruption ] — to see the substantial package of amendments to which he refers.”
“My hon. Friend makes an important point about this piece of legislation. As we know, the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 did not command support across all communities in Northern Ireland. How can we hope to proceed if that is the case? That is why the Government are committed to reforming, repealing and replacing the legacy Act—that is what is in the Bill. I hope that when people see the full picture they will realise that it is fair, balanced, proportionate and reasonable, and that it seeks to command the confidence of all communities in Northern Ireland.”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns) will have to answer that question, but, with respect, I disagree with him. He worked on the package of amendments during his time as a Defence Minister. In the end, we have to strike a balance, as the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart) is well aware. When people see those amendments, they will realise that they are fair and reasonable with regard to the protection of our veterans. Crucially, they will put into legislation for the first time protections that were not in the Act passed in 2023.”
“I do not accept that, because all the Northern Ireland political parties were opposed to the immunity that was at the heart of the 2023 legacy Act. It had no support from political parties in Northern Ireland or from victims and survivors’ organisations. That is why these changes have to be made, and that is why the Government will proceed with this Bill.”
“We will come to debate that amendment, along with all the other amendments that hon. and right hon. Members have tabled, when we get to the Committee stage. The judgment in the Thompson case was absolutely clear—it was also referred to by the Dillon judgment—that the ultimate responsibility for protecting national security rests with the Government. That is a long-established principle that has support on both sides of the House. At the same time, I have made it clear that I wish to see the maximum possible disclosure, consistent with that requirement that falls on Ministers.”
“As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Irish Government published on 8 June their legislative outline, entitled “The General Scheme of the Legacy of the Troubles Bill 2026”. That is intended to fulfil the commitment that the Irish Government gave in the joint framework to co-operate to the fullest extent possible with the commission. The right hon. Gentleman is referring to the position today in the light of the Dillon judgment, and I happen to agree with him. Now that the Dillon judgment has made it quite clear that the commission, even in its current form, is compliant with the European convention on human rights and capable of carrying out investigations, I hope that we will see co-operation in response to the requests that the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery is making of the Irish Government.”
“The right hon. Gentleman makes a powerful argument for why the troubles Bill should be passed, because it will enable precisely the information sharing with the Irish authorities that he and I want to see, and that all the people in Northern Ireland who are still waiting for answers would like to receive. That is one of the central arguments for proceeding with the Bill.”
“I regularly meet the Northern Ireland Executive and the Police Service of Northern Ireland to discuss a range of issues in Northern Ireland, including community cohesion. However, given the recent serious disorder, there is a problem that needs to be tackled.”
“I do agree with my hon. Friend. The attack on Mr Ogilvie was truly shocking, and there was no justification whatsoever for the racist thuggery we witnessed on the streets of Belfast in the days following. I met nurses and doctors from a hospital in Belfast, and some of the nurses described to me how, because of the colour of their skin, they were too afraid to leave the hospital at the end of their shift, while others discussed whether they should leave in the back of a colleague’s car covered in a coat or in the boot, because they were afraid of the thugs who had taken control of the streets. The fact that that happened on the streets of our United Kingdom in 2026 should give us all cause for deep concern.”
“That was, of course, an awful feature of what we saw. One of the things I learned in my discussions was that those from the far right had taken a list of houses in multiple occupation in Belfast—a list that, in the interests of openness, was properly available on the Belfast city council website; the council has now taken it down—and used it to try to target houses during the racist violence. There is a clear obligation on social media companies, set out in the Online Safety Act 2023, and there is an obligation on Ofcom to enforce that Act, because there is no doubt that part of the violence was fuelled by that kind of online hatred.”
“The right hon. Gentleman raises a really important point, and I am grateful to him for his question. We all have a responsibility—political leaders have a responsibility to call out what was witnessed for what it is and not mince our words, and as I have already indicated, social media companies have a responsibility to ensure that such material, if it is illegal, is not available on social media sites. I pay tribute to the police and the community organisations, who did an extraordinary job on the night of the 10th to find shelter for people who had been burned out of their homes. Parents also have a responsibility; if someone’s son comes back at 11 o’clock at night wearing dark clothing and smelling of smoke, a parent might ask, “Where have you been and what have you been doing?””
“Northern Ireland is a society, as the hon. Gentleman knows better than most, that has been undergoing profound change since the signing of the Good Friday agreement 28 years ago. As the famous lines go, we have a shared history, but not necessarily a shared memory. The progress we have seen is because Northern Ireland society has been working to move beyond that. One of the people I met who was there on the night of the violence said that we now have “another other” in Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the traditional divisions, but there is now another other: the ethnic minority population of Northern Ireland, who are terrified about what is happening. We do not want to add to the troubles of the past by not being clear how unacceptable it is to see that on the streets of Belfast today.”
“My hon. Friend is right to raise this issue, because five of the main parties have now come forward with various proposals for reform. I have said to the party leaders that I wish to meet them to discuss those proposals. Time and effort is being expended at the moment on trying to sort out the problem of the budget. On the question of the paramilitary displays and flags, the Police Service of Northern Ireland has new powers to remove them as a result of the recommendation of Jonathan Hall, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation.”
“There is a responsibility, above all, on the Northern Ireland Executive to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. There being no Executive in Northern Ireland for 40% of the time since the Good Friday agreement has not helped to achieve that objective. To take one issue, there is an acute housing crisis in Northern Ireland, as there is in other parts of the United Kingdom. In taking action to enable more homes to be built, one of the issues that needs to be addressed is the fact that water infrastructure cannot cope. If that is sorted out, more homes can be built.”
“We have already increased the number of operations and arrests in Northern Ireland in the last two years, in comparison with the previous period. About 1,000 people who had no right to be in Northern Ireland have been removed, including 500 who have been returned to the Republic of Ireland. The hon. Member will be well aware of the importance of the open border. Intelligence-led policing at the ports and airports under Operation Gull and visits to workplaces have resulted in more people being detained and removed.”
“I regularly meet representatives of the logistics sector and businesses trading between Great Britain and Northern Ireland—for instance, through the Northern Ireland business stakeholders group—to discuss how we can make the Windsor framework operate as smoothly as possible.”
“In respect of the EU emissions trading system, yes, we are applying a carbon charge to boat movements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland—the same charge that is being applied between Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland. The purpose of that is to ensure that the carbon border adjustment mechanism does not hit businesses in Northern Ireland, which the right hon. Gentleman would be very cross about if it were to be the case. Let me simply say this to him: if things are as bad as he suggests, why is Northern Ireland one of the fastest-growing parts of the United Kingdom economy?”
“I met the leaders of the main Northern Ireland political parties on Thursday 11 June to discuss the terrible disorder. The attack on Mr Ogilvie was truly shocking, but the racist violence that we saw in response had no justification whatsoever.”
“The single most important thing that we can all do as political leaders is to be absolutely clear that everyone who has made the United Kingdom their home lawfully should be treated with equality, respect and dignity, regardless of where they come from. That is one of the characteristics of our country.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what she says, and I agree with her. There was terrible disorder in Ballymena last year, as a result of which a number of steps were taken to bring the community together. It was noticeable that the recent disorder that we saw in Belfast was not replicated in Ballymena. That is an example of communities working together to build trust and respect, and we need to see a lot more of it.”
“I hope the hon. Lady will recognise that the common travel area, which is more than a century old, is of great benefit to the citizens of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Many people in Northern Ireland live their lives across that border every single day. Anyone who suggests—I know that she is not doing so—that there should be immigration controls on that border is not being realistic, and it would not be the appropriate action to take. As I indicated in answer to an earlier question, we are increasing immigration enforcement activity across the United Kingdom, including in Northern Ireland, as a result of which 1,000 people have been removed in the two years since the election, including 500 who have been returned to the Republic of Ireland.”
“I join the hon. Gentleman in thanking and praising the brave officers of the PSNI. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Matthew Patrick) and I visited the officers at Strandtown police station, who dealt with the disorder when the bus was set on fire on 10 June. More than 40 of them were injured, and we wish them a speedy recovery. I know that the hon. Gentleman is a doughty advocate for the new training centre, and I look forward to discussing the matter further with him.”
“The figure that it came up with was 124%, and that is indeed the level of funding that the Northern Ireland Executive are getting. My hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch (Katrina Murray) recognises that fact. She rightly points out that, however much money is allocated, someone will always say, “Give us more.” How the money is spent has also been an important part of this debate, and I shall come to the remarks of the former Finance Minister, the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), in a moment. Let us look at what is achieved in Northern Ireland for the expenditure, with 124% of the funding in England. In England, about 4% of people are waiting more than a year to see a hospital consultant. In Northern Ireland, it is nearly 50%, with more funding.”
“I simply want to make the point that funding settlements for all the nations of the United Kingdom are underpinned by the Barnett formula, and it is important to remember that, for example, compared with Wales, Northern Ireland has benefited from generous funding from the Barnett formula in previous years. The UK Government—the last Government and this one—have also committed around £16 billion in funding packages and agreed financial flexibilities from 2014-15 right up to 2029-30 for the Executive to support public services and long-term investment. The Treasury has given a commitment to discuss a fiscal framework for Northern Ireland, where, of course, funding under the Barnett formula can be discussed. On the level of need, the fact is that this was independently assessed by the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council.”
“The Chancellor set out that Northern Ireland would receive £19.3 billion per year on average over the course of the spending review period—the largest settlement since devolution in 1998. In addition, the Chancellor confirmed that the Government would be providing almost £750 million in additional funding through the Barnett formula over the spending review period as a result of decisions made at the autumn Budget and the spring statement. That includes an extra £373 million in the current financial year, 2026-27, and that money is available to the Executive. To pick up on one point, I am aware of the arguments about the funding in comparison to Scotland and Wales.”
“I join others in congratulating the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi), on having secured this extremely important, timely and useful estimates debate and on the work she does to scrutinise what happens in Northern Ireland and the work of the Northern Ireland Office. The Committee is exceedingly energetic and will be getting full value for money from the small ministerial team, as it did today and will do over the next couple of weeks. I shall begin by addressing the most important question that has been highlighted, to which the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart) just referred: the lack of an agreed budget. He has just reminded us that he thought the spending review was a pretty good settlement.”
“I believe in devolved Government in Northern Ireland, and the Government believe in devolved Government in Northern Ireland. There is a matter of principle here: the funding is available to the Executive; it is for them to decide how much they allocate to policing as opposed to other priorities.”
“From memory, I think some 42 officers were injured in the recent disorder. I appreciate the financial pressures faced, but this is a devolved matter. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim said that he thought it was a profound mistake to have devolved responsibility for policing and justice. I respectfully disagree with him. The trouble with the call for ringfencing, which we have heard from other sources this evening, is this: we either believe in devolved Government—the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland taking decisions about how the money is spent—or begin to move back towards a ringfence; once we have a ringfence for the PSNI, it will not be long before someone says, “Can I have a ringfence over here?” In the end, we have a choice to make.”
“No funding has been identified for the ports fund, but there is money in the local growth fund. I also point out that Belfast harbour has a masterplan, which I understand it is looking to self-fund, and that the Government have made available an increase in capital funding to the Northern Ireland Executive. If the Executive wish to put money into port infrastructure, they are entirely able to do so. Let me turn to PSNI funding. I once again pay tribute to the officers of the PSNI who, every time there is disorder in Northern Ireland, show extraordinary courage in protecting the public from those who are setting fire to buses, throwing bricks and burning people out of their houses. I had the chance to thank some of those officers when I returned to Northern Ireland the week before last, following the disorder. They are very brave.”
“I said to the Executive, “How about putting the extra Barnett consequentials that you now have, including £373 million in the current year that you were not expecting, together with the £9 million? We could then enable those projects to continue.” That is an example of what can be done if we put our minds to it. The extra capital allocation in the local growth fund may in part be the answer to the question asked about the ports fund. A number of commitments were made in the “Safeguarding the Union” document. I remember a large commitment that Casement Park would be fully funded so that the Euros could be hosted. Well, no money was allocated for it at all. The previous Government were very free with the promises, but they did not do the work to find the money.”
“Friend the Member for Wirral West (Matthew Patrick), has spoken about in the House; the enhanced investment zone; and the local growth fund. A point was raised about the local growth fund. I recognise and accept that the change in the profile from revenue to capital has created a difficulty for the voluntary sector. That is why I met representatives of the voluntary sector and said to them, “There is unspent money in the PEACEPLUS programme; you can make a bid to that.” I think about £12 million is available in revenue. The Exec came to the Government and said, “We would like to keep £3 million of that for Go Succeed; we think it is a great programme, and we’d like you to carry on backing it.” We said, “Fine.” That left £9 million available in revenue for the economic inactivity programmes that the voluntary sector has been running.”
“These structural issues are visible in the relatively high public sector pay bill, limited revenue-raising”— a point just referred to— “and persistent overspends.” Whatever the size of the budget that anyone has, we have, in the end, a responsibility to find a way of living within that and to raise more revenue if that is open to us. That is what all Governments must do. The current Government have done it in relation to the public finances, and the same is true for the Northern Ireland Executive. In addition to the funding I have already described, there is the £617 million from the UK Government that is going into the city and growth deals, as well as the defence growth deal, which the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my hon.”
“Are they absolutely unavoidable legal commitments, are they things we would like to do or are they things in between? Trying to interrogate and understand the nature of those pressures and to see what the Executive tell the Government about that is the first requirement. The second requirement is a plan for how we will move from this year-to-year crisis—which was very clearly articulated by the right hon. Member for East Antrim in his contribution—because we need to see something that will address this in the longer term. I am much struck by what the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council said in its report on the sustainability of the finances, published on 16 June. It said that “these immediate issues facing NI’s public finances reflect an unsustainable trajectory resulting from the underlying structural problems in the Budget.”
“I have been talking regularly with the Minister for Finance, who clearly faces a huge challenge in trying to get an agreement, and those conversations will continue this week, because we need to get to a multi-year budget as quickly as possible. I said about a month ago that the Executive needed to come towards the Government and meet us halfway, and there are two essential requirements. The first relates to the fact that the amount of money currently being forecast as the overspend for this year is going up, beyond the level that we saw in the last financial year. The word “pressures” is heard frequently in Northern Ireland. People say that they have budget pressures. Well, everyone has budget pressures. Quite reasonably, the Government have asked what the nature of those pressures is.”
“I absolutely acknowledge the work that Mike Nesbitt has been doing in health, and it shows what can be achieved if minds are put to it. It is a difficult balance between, on the one hand, running the services today and keeping them going and, on the other hand, investing in transformation. In the end, however, investing in the transformation is the way in which we will be able to deliver better public services for the people of Northern Ireland. I share the concern that has been expressed right across the House at the absence of an agreed multi-year budget, which is creating, above all, significant uncertainty for the funding of public services.”
“In addition, the framework agreement, to be given effect by the troubles Bill, will enable the Irish Government to commit a further €25 million for legacy mechanisms. We are talking regularly to the ICRIR and the Treasury on a business case, but I say to the hon. Gentleman that the caseload faced by the legacy commission is entirely the product of the piece of legislation that the previous Government passed.”
“However, if we divide the grant by the population, we get £19.42 per head of funding; if we divide the additional security funding for Northern Ireland by the population of Northern Ireland, we get £19.61 per head. When people ask why Northern Ireland is not eligible for the counter-terrorism grant, the answer is that it is getting the same funding per head from the additional security funding. It is for the Chief Constable to decide how best to use that money. Let me turn to legacy funding. The hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar, speaking for the Opposition, is right that the sum was identified some time ago. It is actually £232 million, because £18 million of the £250 million has been set aside for part 4 of the legacy Act.”
“How do we ensure, in return for whatever support a Government give—we have seen a long history of lumps and bumps of money, restoration after collapse, and so on—a consistent, measurable path to balanced budgets year after year, and an end to boom and bust in times of crisis? We have increased the additional security funding, which, from memory, I think was flat for about 10 years under the previous Government. This Government came in and decided to increase the additional security funding. The point has been raised in the Select Committee about the comparison with the counter-terrorism policing grant that is available in England and Wales.”
“I will reflect on that point. I do not know in what sense the right hon. Gentleman uses “remote”; if it is geographical, I agree with him entirely. I acknowledge that, as he said from experience, agreeing a budget is difficult in a power-sharing system. It is difficult. He told the House an interesting story about being faced with reductions in budget and it being possible to come together and agree one. All Governments have to deal with the financial and fiscal circumstances they find, but when we take office, we have a responsibility to fulfil the tasks that are in front of us, which include balancing the budget. He also made interesting points about conditionality.”
“The final point I would make on this issue—and I did make this point to the Select Committee when I was asked about it—is that we are looking in particular at schedule 4 to the Bill because Jon Boutcher makes the point that if there is a requirement to sift all the material to identify that which is of high security before handing over the files, that puts an obligation in place. We are looking at what we can do to ease some of the cost burdens, as hon. Members have said, as more people come to the Legacy Commission—and I hope more people will come forward. I will turn now to a couple of other points.”
“Well, it is entirely the result of that. The funding that was made available was the fixed sum to which I referred a moment ago. That is the first point. Secondly, the Department of Justice had put aside a sum of around, from memory, £50 million when the inquests five-year plan was put in place. It thought it would have 50 cases. A number of those, of course, are now not going ahead, and the troubles Bill proposes to restore nine and to sift the rest. Thirdly, prior to the legacy Act’s coming into law, the PSNI had about 1,000 cases to investigate; had the legacy Act not been passed, it would have continued to have to investigate those and receive requests for disclosure.”
“The hon. Gentleman invites me to speculate on discussions I may or may not have had, and I will kindly resist the request that he has just made for reasons that I am sure will have been obvious to him when he wrote that question into his speech. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) and I have discussed the internal market many times before. He talks about the firms that have stopped shipping stuff to Northern Ireland. He will find many, many firms that have stopped shipping stuff to Europe for exactly the same reason: the decision to leave the European Union. It is from that that all the consequences have flowed.”
“I would indeed accept that point, if it was not for the fact that a decision had been made to leave the European Union when there is an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That was the fundamental problem that had to be solved, and none of the alternative suggestions would enable us to do this. I want to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jen Craft) about the Muckamore hospital report. I think that every single Member of the House was deeply shocked by what we read in that report, and our hearts go out to all those who have been affected by the mistreatment that has been revealed. I think the answer to the very reasonable question that she put is that we all hope to see all the many recommendations in that report implemented.”
“I think the hon. Gentleman was responsible for establishing the inquiry, and I pay credit to him for doing so. The real way to honour those who have suffered is to ensure that the recommendations of the report are fully implemented.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member on having established the inquiry, because when things go catastrophically wrong, it is what we do about it that counts, and that requires an independent look and for the truth to be told. In conclusion, it is of course for the Executive to agree a budget—above all, for the citizens they serve. That is the fundamental principle of devolved government in Northern Ireland. I repeat what I said earlier: both myself and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury are ready and willing to try to assist the Executive in doing that, but we need to see the things that I described earlier to be able to do so.”
“All of us have a responsibility now to urge calm and let the police do their job.”
“We have it because it protects the liberty of all of us.”
“Instead, a number of them stepped forward and, at immense risk to their own safety, intervened to pull the assailant away and protect the victim until the police arrived. To those individuals, I would like to say this: you showed the very best of humanity, and you have the profound gratitude of this entire House. This was a horrific and brutal attack, and the PSNI is seeking to provide support and reassurance to the local community. The Chief Constable, to whom I have spoken twice this morning, and his officers have our full, unwavering support as they pursue their inquiries. I would also like to repeat their appeal not to share or repost footage of the attack out of respect for the victim’s family. I echo the words of the Prime Minister this morning that there is no place for such violence on our streets.”
“I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question. Shortly after 10.30 pm last night, a man in his 40s was subjected to a horrific, sustained knife attack on a street in north Belfast. He is in hospital in a serious condition, having suffered very severe injuries. I know the thoughts of the whole House will be with him and his loved ones at what must be a time of unimaginable distress. The response from the Police Service of Northern Ireland was immediate. A man in his 30s was arrested on suspicion of attempted murder. He remains in police custody, and the PSNI is continuing to investigate. It has declared this a critical incident. Amid the horror of what happened, we also saw something extraordinary. When confronted with scenes of terrifying violence, members of the public did not walk on by.”