Neil Coyle
MP for Bermondsey and Old Southwark · Labour · United Kingdom
“Hundreds of constituents on Acanthus Drive, Abercorn Way and Achilles Close face eviction threats, rent hikes and pressure to sign weaker tenancy agreements from their landlord Freshview and the freeholder BMR St James.”
“Ms Lewell, given all the references to Dracula, I am tempted to point out what a shame it is that none of the bloodsuckers from Reform is here. Given the point the Minister has just made, I invite him—and colleagues—to visit the Golden Hinde in my constituency.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for making an amazing speech and celebrating local history. In my constituency we have the Brunel Museum, which is a fantastic local resource covering engineering history, the Thames and the Brunel family. It makes an estimated £150,000 social value contribution, but it struggles to compete for resources.”
“Does the hon. Member also agree that there is a gap in the information that politicians and those who fund us need to supply? It cannot be acceptable for any Member, or any political leader in the UK, to forget that they met the Russian ambassador, to forget that they met someone who later turned out to be a Russian spy—as did the Reform…”
“Does the hon. Lady at least welcome the job guarantee for 18 to 21-year-olds? Does she think that that represents this Government working with employers such as the Premier League and the FA to create opportunities? Is that not in stark contrast with her Government, who watched opportunities disappear while they did FA?”
“Q6. Yesterday I welcomed Bermondsey PC Kevin Webster to Parliament, after his recognition as the Met’s Police Constable of the Year 2025. Will the Prime Minister commend Kevin for his local work, and that of Labour Southwark council’s amazing night time and antisocial behaviour team?”
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“4. What recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the Crown Prosecution Service in ensuring access to justice for victims of crime.”
“The Ministry of Justice’s early legal advice pilot scheme has just reported. It ran for five months, cost £5 million and supported a sum total of just three people. Instead of the Attorney General and the Government trying to reinvent the wheel by making it square, why do they not deliver better access to justice by supporting more people through legal aid?”
“Amendment 118 would make a person marketing goods online a trader for the purposes of the Act. Amendment 119 would make it an unfair commercial practice to sell goods online unless the specified safety requirements have been complied with. Amendment 123 should be self—”
“Thank you, Mr McCabe. It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair. In speaking to the amendments, may I thank the organisations that have contributed? There is a whole range of them, but I would particularly like to thank the British Toy and Hobby Association and Electrical Safety First, not least because they are based in the best constituency in the country: Bermondsey and Old Southwark. The other organisations include Which? and trading standards bodies. There is a range of amendments in my name covering a range of issues. They have at their core the need to protect British consumers, British businesses and British standards. I want to air a lot of issues. I hope I will not need to force votes and I am keen to hear what the Minister has to say in response.”
“I beg to move amendment 118, in clause 217, page 146, line 11, at end insert— “(c) a person marketing P’s goods for sale online.” This amendment makes a person marketing goods online a trader, for the purposes of this Act.”
“It is insulting for them to have others trading on profitable sites such as Amazon and others with contempt for UK law, in a way that would be tackled if it was happening in a physical shop or even down a market. The truth is that Del Boy’s products would meet higher standards than some of those sold online. Platforms have been accommodating counterfeit, hooky, shoddy and dangerous goods for far too long.”
“Frankly, it is a bit shocking that some of these amendments are necessary, but they are. The British Toy and Hobby Association survey “Don’t Toy with Children’s Safety” highlights some significant concerns. The toy industry is worth £3.2 billion to the UK economy—it is a massive sector. The survey showed that, in 2021, 60% of the toys tested were unsafe for a child to play with, and 86% of the toys freely available online were illegal to sell in the UK. That is appalling for lots of reasons, including because some of it is counterfeit. We touched on this point in previous debates. British companies trade legitimately in goods that they are licensed to provide and make. They hold a trademark.”
“In its US annual report a couple of years ago, Amazon acknowledged that it was, in its own words, “unable to prevent sellers in our stores or through other stores from selling unlawful, counterfeit, pirated or stolen goods”. I use Amazon to represent online marketplaces more generally, because of the familiarity of customers. They believe it is a reputable organisation and trust that it meets standards, but that is not the case. Of course, Amazon also has an ongoing battle with the GMB on recognition, which it should have resolved some time ago. Ministers should have been supportive on that issue: they say they want a high-skills, high-wage economy, and that is what trade unions set about to deliver, and that is certainly what the GMB is seeking, in partnership with the Amazon workforce.”
“715.] This group of amendments, and particularly amendment 124, help deliver what the Minister said he would like to achieve, and what I hope the Bill will achieve by the point it completes its progress through both Houses. Fundamentally, it comes back to what customers believe. My constituents, and customers, believe whether they are shopping at Argos on the Old Kent Road or on Amazon online that the goods they are buying will meet the required UK standards. That is simply not what is happening. Some 90% of toy sales online are through Amazon, eBay and AliExpress. I have referred to Amazon previously, and I do not want to pick on Amazon, but it is one of the big three. It has done some work to try to address the concerns of organisations and trade bodies, but it is simply not enough.”
“The main amendment that I wish to speak to is amendment 124, and the takedown power to require the removal from online trade of counterfeit or dangerous products. This would deliver, in part, what the Minister, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, said on Second Reading of the Online Sale of Goods (Safety) Bill, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), when pressed about taking items offline. He said that, “we should go further than that and require marketplaces to ensure that such products are not on their sites at all, ever, and that they check to ensure that they do not appear and, indeed, remove retailers who have transgressed.” —[ Official Report , 20 January 2023; Vol. 726, c.”
“For those not familiar with the genre, that is the third film of Sergio Leone’s trilogy, and Clint played an antihero. He takes Tuco in to claim the reward, and then shoots him down from the noose, in order to claim further, higher rewards down the line—so that is an intriguing analogy from the Minister. The first film in the trilogy was “A Fistful of Dollars”. I am here with “For a Few Dollars More”—the second in the trilogy—to offer a better system, with some improvements to what the Government have put forward, to try to do a better job. For those who are familiar with “The Good, the Bad and the Ugly”, there are only two kinds of people in this world—those who have seen the film, and those who have not.”
“Amendment 122 defines an online marketplace and safety requirements, in line with the bodies who have contributed who are still concerned about where things are at in the Bill. I think the Government’s original aim was to publish a draft Bill; this Bill took some organisations by surprise, and I think a lot are playing catch-up, hoping that issues will be aired here and that Ministers will be meeting with them soon, ahead of the Lords stages. They hope to see a bit more progress on some measures in the Bill. Most accept the need for this legislation, but very few seem convinced that the Bill does the complete job. Mr McCabe, you were not in the Chair for our evidence sessions, where we had all the “wild west” references. The Minister suggested a Clint Eastwood in “The Good, the Bad and the Ugly” character to help take action.”
“It will surprise no one that I wish to speak to these amendments; I am sorry for being rusty. Having been on Bill Committees previously and managed to get amendments through, or at least poached by the Government, I feel embarrassed to have slipped up on this one. I went through the amendments previously, so I hope Members can copy and paste from previous debates. Amendment 123 is self-explanatory. Amendment 120 would make it a misleading action to sell goods online without taking reasonable steps to ensure that the goods have not been subject to a recall. Amendment 124 would create the takedown power—the power to remove dangerous or counterfeit goods from online sales. Amendment 121 defines reasonable steps.”
“Ministers claim that they want to make the UK the “safest” place in the world to be online, and here are the means to deliver that laudable aim.”
“One meeting I had with the Met revealed that more than 300 requests to take down videos had been ignored by YouTube. They included calling for revenge and the murder of specific individuals in revenge attacks between gangs in London. The police should have a stronger power than that, but as with this legislation, the power to request that something is removed is insufficient; it must be the power to compel the removal, similar to—for those familiar with local authority powers—a cease and desist order by a planning body. That would be a comparable power if the Government are keen to have something stronger than that offered in the current legislation. I hope that amendment 124 helps British businesses, jobs, standards and customers and helps the Government —that is why I am here today.”
“I hope that amendment 121 in particular, but also other amendments in this group, are useful to the Government in delivering their aims and defending customers and businesses. The wording of amendment 124 is crucial; I hope that the Minister will come back to this when he responds to the debate. It would “require the removal”. It is not a request to remove a product; it is a requirement to remove a product. It could be put in the hands of all the bodies in clause 143, with penalties and timely action to prevent a fatality if this is not done quickly enough. The use of the word “require” is deliberate, because the power to request is in other legislation. For example, the police can request the removal of video footage from YouTube that is incitement to violence or hatred, is homophobic or is incitement to violence between gangs.”
“Maybe it is still in the internal post. I thank the Minister for the letter; it would be nice to know what it says. The point is that the Bill does not make clear how customers will secure redress. It presents a convoluted route of multiple agencies and potential court action that people simply will not want to take. My amendment does not go as far as some have suggested. It is a moderate suggestion. There have been suggestions that there is full and shared liability for platforms for any product sold and that some of the measures should be retrospectively implemented so that there should be penalties on those who have sold goods that they know to be counterfeit or dangerous going back for years.”
“I do not remember any western in which a sheriff held a roundtable. In terms of the outcome, what is the pace at which counterfeit or dangerous goods will be removed? That is the concern for consumers. Even if I buy something, discover that it is shoddy and report it through the process in the Bill, there is still a significant gap in time before something is taken off. The takedown power is crucial to prevent further hundreds, thousands or millions of that product being sold or marketed to people when it is known to be dangerous or faulty and could put lives at risk.”
“The Minister is coming to it, but the takedown power is the crucial bit to do that and it is what the OPSS, which he refers to, says it wants.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way and for his reassurance that this will be looked at over the summer. As things stand, the Government are saying—the Minister has just said—that a product could cause a fire and potentially a fatality, but still the process would be to report it through a particular agency and possibly take court action, rather than what the regulators want to do and customers want to see, which is the take-down of the item to prevent any further dangerous incident or potential fatalities. I hope that the Minister gets to a point where that immediate power will be available.”
“With that reassurance of looking at this further over the summer and to improve on where things stand, I will take the Minister at his word. The idea that we can support everything in a product safety review that will start we know not when feels a bit like missing the bus—or missing the stagecoach, to stick with the analogy. The powers need to be in the Bill to ensure that when the product safety review is done, the vehicle is already available to enable dangerous or counterfeit goods to be removed, but given his reassurance, I beg to ask to leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn . Clause 217, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill . Schedule 18 Commercial practices which are in all circumstances considered unfair”
“Those goods, known to be dangerous, are still online. Removing fake reviews might help to prevent people from buying such shoddy items, but removing the goods altogether should be the fundamental aim. I politely suggest that the Minister adds ESF and specific consumer groups such as Which ? to his round of pending meetings, to ensure that the Bill is improved—and to tackle the problem that he previously acknowledged existed. He likened himself earlier to “Pale Rider”. He may think he is “Pale Rider”, but I am not convinced that he has turned up on a horse, or even on a pony. Given that there is no baron here, it is more as though he is on a rocking horse.”
““A portable heater” was on eBay and people were saying it was fine, but it had “easy access to live parts with 240 volts running through the heating element, posing” what ESF called “an imminent risk to life.” Another example is a “‘water-proof’ extension lead… on Amazon.” Guess what? There are “no water-proof capabilities” and this “presents a significant risk of electric shock. This item has already been recalled as unsafe by the Office for Product Safety and Standards”. A combination of the takedown power and the removal of fake reviews that claimed that these products were okay and good to use would be a significant step forward—one that, sadly, is not in the Bill. One last example is the bargain beauty products—not something I buy often for myself—on eBay that had no fuse in the plugs. That is how dangerous they were.”
“It would be better for good business, better for customers and better for ensuring that standards were upheld. The charity Electrical Safety First, which is based in Bermondsey and Old Southwark, has said that in one of its investigations 93% of products bought from online marketplaces were unsafe—93%! In some significant part, that is down to fake reviews imposing a false legitimacy on goods. People buy because they believe other people have bought and have had an enjoyable experience or got the product they sought. My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston has already provided examples of the need to protect consumers, and I draw the attention of the Committee these live examples, which are happening right now.”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston and the hon. Member for Gordon have already made some excellent points, so I will be brief. Amendment 125 would add fake reviews to the list of banned practices. No customer should be hoodwinked by the deceitful practice of submitting a fake review. Fundamentally, many customers see fake reviews as fraud, which is the fastest-growing crime. Our police services are overstretched and sadly, under this Government, they do not have the resources to tackle fraud. The amendment examines alternative routes to securing action to tackle a problem that is leading to dangerous circumstances, as has been outlined. Amendment 125 would provide a stronger power than the one proposed, and it has been called for by organisations representing British customers and responsible British businesses.”
“I hope that airing that specific, possibly niche concern today will give us greater time to capture it and ensure that the Bill does not preclude action against rogue traders where specific prices are agreed up front but that is not the deal that takes place, because someone pays for a cheaper or even a more expensive alternative that does the same job. Having flagged that concern, I hope that the Government will look again at the wording and at how they will meet their overall aim, which I support.”
“An example might be where someone arranges for a person to come and fix a car part, a boiler or a pipe leak, and that person then arrives and says, “The product you’ve looked at online is not compatible with your boiler,”—or their fittings, their car or whatever it might be—“but guess what: I’ve got a different one in the van that’s a bit cheaper,” or a bit more expensive, “but will do the job better for you.” By making a slight change to the wording of the Bill to remove the words “and its price” on page 150, amendment 126 would deal with that kind of rogue practice, which is out there and which has been raised by trading standards. The fear among the bodies that are trying to secure greater action against rogue traders is that the existing wording of the Bill allows wiggle room and will let the dodgy practices continue.”
“The existing wording might stop the Government meeting the aims that they are setting out to achieve. The suggestion is that the specific requirement that the price be covered, if that is not the price paid, will potentially prevent action from being taken against a trader who deliberately advertises a price, but then changes it.”
“I have a few brief supplementary comments, further to the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston. I just want to point out an anomaly and the problematic nature of the wording of the Bill, which I hope the Government will re-examine before they go further. Amendment 126 would expand the definition of “invitation to purchase” to cases in which the information provided to a consumer covers the characteristics of a product, but not its price. That might sound counterintuitive, as it did to me when I first went through this with organisations, but it would expand the goods and services covered by the legislation. That is important, because the use of “price” in the wording of the Bill could prohibit action against a rogue trader.”
“The Minister says that clause 250 is relevant only in certain circumstances. Can he be clear that the Government’s intention is not for the provision to cover someone who has perhaps been a decades-long subscriber to, for example, Sky? I hate to pick a particular company, but it is for the purposes of the conversation—I am not a Sky subscriber. Is the Minister saying that, if a person had had a contract for a decade and was a regular viewer of sports channels, or whatever it might be, they would not be caught by the clause? The “certain circumstances” do not seem to be well understood by some businesses outside this building.”
“I think that Sky briefed quite widely—it briefed members of the Committee and beyond—that it thinks that it is caught by the provision and that it covers all contracts. I can understand that a person would be caught by the new provisions if they had a new contract where there was a discount, as my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston already pointed out, but to impose the condition retrospectively on business contracts that someone could have had for decades seems to place a new onus on existing business arrangements. The Government have avoided doing that in other legislation, and I wonder about the rationale. I picked Sky off the top of my head, but it is an organisation that is concerned.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way; he has been very generous. To be clear, is it the Government’s expectation that a subscription could be cancelled through a single communication from any device or social media platform? Over recent days, significant figures have tried to close bank accounts and other things by tweeting. Is it the Government’s expectation that this communication would come from a verified point of contact, such as an email address or phone number that the company holds? Otherwise, I could set up a Twitter account—or a Threads account, as we have seen this week—in the Minister’s name and then cancel his TV, or other, subscriptions.”
“Sorry if I was not clear. I thank the Minister for checking. Will it have to be from a single point of contact, such as a verified address, to protect the customer as well as the business? If I wanted to cancel a contract, would I have to use the email address or phone number that the company holds for me and not, as the Bill currently reads, a Facebook post or something that the business may not be able to confirm is mine? Does that help?”
“I think that last comment about a tweet not being sufficient would be welcomed by responsible businesses that just want to use the verified contact details. The other point is perhaps a bit more worrying, Chair. We are quite well into this Bill Committee. There is an economic impact assessment. The Minister has said today that the measures would be implemented immediately, but has just corrected that in his final comment. The assessment set out here does not now include the cost to business of implementing these measures, because we do not have a start date. How can businesses plan to implement measures when they do not know their start date, and they do not know because the Minister is still clarifying what would be considered sufficient contact from a customer to close an account?”
“It is important at this stage to flag that concern, because there is a deep resentment, almost, from the sector over the Government’s suggestion that trading standards take this on, yet the Government still insist that it is the appropriate vehicle. I hope there is still time to review which alternative body might be able to take on this task. This feels like something that a national body should deal with, and it should not sit with local authorities as operators and rogue traders may cover whole regions of the country, not one single local authority. I did listen to the Minister, and take onboard his suggestion that the FCA is not necessarily the right vehicle, therefore I am prepared to withdraw this amendment, as drafted, but I would like to see a commitment to reconsider where this responsibility sits.”
“New clause 7 would have made the FCA the relevant body, rather than local authorities, but the point of the new clause is that trading standards should not be made responsible for something when they do not have the expertise or resource to be effective. If the Government do not think it should be the FCA, it is up to the Government to come back and find the right body. It is the Government’s legislation; they want it to be effective, and for these saving schemes to not collapse and leave people without, so it is incumbent on the Government to come up with either the resources and skills—training, whatever it might take—for trading standards to do this, or an alternative body to oversee these specific saving schemes.”
“Again, this is the Government trying to insist that local government take on greater responsibility after cuts to their own resources. Southwark is a case in point. We have seen similar cuts to trading standards, but also to the overall council’s budget. The Government reduce the responsibilities of central Government Departments, such as the Home Office, and pass on additional costs running into the millions for things such as emergency children’s services with no recourse to public funds, without giving additional resources to councils to do so. This is another case in point where the Government are trying to push a new power and demand on to an already overstretched and under-resourced arena.”
“I will come back to its direct comments— “and therefore should be in the remit of a national regulator with the experience and resources to deal with financial matters. CTSI would like to see all references to local authorities removed in these provisions and to pass on responsibility.” The Minister says that the FCA is not the right vehicle or body. Perhaps there is space and time to examine what that body should be. The point made by trading standards is that they do not have the skillset to oversee financial services in the way that the Government are demanding. They do not have the resources—that is the point made in our evidence sessions. This follows 13 years of cuts to weights and measures—to trading standards—which we have seen across the country; there has been a 50% cut in their capacity to do the job.”
“The Government say that they have assessed where this should sit; they say that they have worked with partners and consulted, but that does not seem to be the feeling of the chartered institute covering the sector, whose language is interesting: “These brand new provisions have been inappropriately dumped on local authority trading standards to deal with, but it would be much better placed to give the Financial Conduct Authority the responsibility to regulate new provisions on savings schemes which are similar in nature to banking and other financial matters already regulated by the FCA. Saving schemes are often national schemes”— such as Farepak, which Members will be familiar with. No individual local authority could have prevented what happened with Farepak; I think that is the point it is making.”
“I have a couple of points; I will try to keep them brief. The clause fundamentally rejects where the Government suggest the responsibility for oversight of a savings scheme should sit. I was just listening to the Minister, and it is probably worth flagging up the message from the Chartered Trading Standards Institute on this.”
“I wonder whether the Minister could pinpoint where in the Bill’s impact assessment documents the estimates are for the number of cases that the Government expect under this legislation, the average time for a case to be heard and the amount that the Government will be resourcing courts?”
“Will the Minister say why the Government chose a costly court process—costly to Government and to individuals, as well as more time-consuming—rather than a specific measure that allows for a body already set out in a schedule to require the removal of information on products that are known to be faulty or counterfeit?”
“In the time that someone is going through the process—potentially for months and months—products that are dangerous to individuals might still be online. I am keen to hear from the Minister what will happen in the interim. What is to stop sellers and online marketplaces continuing to retail products that are dangerous to individuals or are counterfeit goods? We will come to this next week, I think, but there is an alternative: the take-down power suggested by trading standards. With what is out there currently and what the Bill intends, we hear lots of analogies about the wild west, but it all feels a bit as if, instead of getting a Clint Eastwood figure to address the problems, we are getting a Deputy Dawg.”
“I was promised some further information that has not arrived yet; I do not know whether it is in the snail mail or the Minister’s crayons ran out or something, but I hope it is coming. As has been raised this morning, there is no information yet from the Government about their expectations for how many cases will be taken to court, how that will have an impact on the backlog, or what the cost will be to Government or individuals. The reason people will end up at Citizens Advice is that they are seeking legal information; Citizens Advice needs to be resourced to support people and to take cases. In connection with this group of clauses, we are not hearing what the Government intend to do to support cases that need to be taken. And, of course, it takes time.”
“I did not intend to speak, but I want to press the Minister on the approach that the Government are choosing to adopt in this group of clauses. What the Bill intends is welcome, as we have heard from witnesses and from elsewhere. Fundamentally, customers want quick redress, and businesses want justice and the removal of counterfeit or fake products that undermine their licences and appropriate trading. The Government’s approach—specifically in these clauses, heading for the courts—ignores the backlog that my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston has spoken about. On Tuesday, we heard from the Minister for London that the Government did not have an agreement with Citizens Advice, or funding set aside for Citizens Advice, to support people to take a case through the courts.”
“Within clause 181 there is the option for someone who is potentially identified as selling rogue or dangerous products to use a reasonable excuse. Can the Minister better define what a reasonable excuse might be? Companies and individuals could choose to prolong the timeframe involved in order to sell more goods that are hooky while the process is followed.”
“To be clear, I am not looking for a list of what companies or individuals might use as an excuse for selling dangerous goods; I wondered whether the Minister would set out the timeframe, as the clause, and associated clauses, are not clear about how long companies and individuals get to provide information or remove dangerous products. What is there to prevent someone from saying, for example, “We have this product on our online marketplace, but it is manufactured in another country. We have been trying to contact the manufacturer, and it has taken some time to identify the specific individual.”? In that time, of course, the individual could have sold more counterfeit and dangerous goods, or have changed their email and other addresses in order to avoid the removal of their products online.”
“South London and Maudsley is the mental health trust that covers my constituency. This year, as a direct result of the Secretary of State’s wider policies, SLaM is cutting £45 million from services. He has said today that he wants to improve mental health care and that he takes safety concerns seriously, but when will those words be meaningful for mental health care for patients and their families in Southwark?”
“Is there a reason why trading standards is not on this list? It would be the go-to for a consumer or business under existing law, so why is it absent from this list?”
“If a consumer believes that they have been sold something that is counterfeit or damaging, which might meet the “detrimental effects” test, where would they go to find out how to address that issue? If a British company has a licence and a trademark, and it sees someone selling fake goods online, thereby undermining the company’s work and trademark in the UK, how does it go about addressing that? In the evidence session, a question was asked about raising awareness of changes to legislation. Could the Minister take a brief moment to explain those two routes to getting change?”