Jess Phillips
MP for Birmingham Yardley · Labour · United Kingdom
“I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Claire Hazelgrove). Mainly because I am a bit lazy, I rarely prepare to speak in debates, and never have copious notes. Her remarks have led where my remarks will go. I will cover the issue of coercion, which hon.”
“Then, when it came to the point that a doctor made the call and said, “Your mom is about to die,” my brother could not come back—this was about four weeks later. So it was me who was with my mom when she died—not all of her children, and not all of her grandchildren. I am eternally grateful that I was there.”
“She was doubly incontinent by this point. To give hon. Members an idea of the kind of woman my mother was, she was an absolute titan. She was like Erin Brockovich, but with a bad perm, in the 1980s. She could lay claim to being able to spot talent, because she gave a job to the current Prime Minister, who worked for her for some time.”
“She did not die in terrible pain—I recognise what my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Ashley Dalton) is saying. She was not writhing. It was not awful. However, she should have been able to choose to have her family with her. I will vote for this Bill.”
“Suicide currently outstrips homicide as the main reason for the deaths of women in cases of domestic abuse and coercive control, so what the right hon. Gentleman outlines is currently happening. Arguing for the status quo is not something I feel comfortable with.”
“It is very good to hear the Minister commit to checking whether guidance is enough. Many of us who have tried to rehouse victims of domestic abuse, even after great laws have been written into legislation in this place, will know that getting them the priority need status under the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 still takes a huge amount of advo…”
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“It was the ’70s, Ms Furniss—things were different in the ’70s. He is fine, to be clear, but I like my mother’s direct action with antisocial behaviour, doling out immediate action to prevent it. I do not think he ever bit my brother again. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley and others have powerfully set out how antisocial behaviour remains a constant menace in communities around the country. Whether in Dudley or anywhere else, it has a damaging effect on people and places, which is why we are pushing strongly to tackle it. I know this is an area of focus for the Minister for Policing and Crime Prevention, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham (Dame Diana Johnson). My hon.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Furniss—I always say that, but it actually is a pleasure. Let me start by thanking all the Members who have come today and contributed. I am especially grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Sonia Kumar) for securing the debate. As a fellow midlands MP, I am delighted that her constituents have someone fighting so diligently on their behalf. Just because I have a bit of time, I have a good Dudley-related antisocial behaviour story from my childhood—or rather, from the ’70s, before I was born. My mum and dad lived in the Black Country at the time. When the younger of my two older brothers bit my elder brother, my mum said that if he was going to behave like an animal, he would have to go with them, and she drove him to Dudley zoo and left him there.”
“We are moving ahead with that commitment, and we have confirmed that funding will be made available to Oldham council as part of this work. We are currently working with a range of experts to develop a best practice local inquiries framework, so that local areas that conduct inquiries do so in a way that actually delivers justice, accountability and truth, commanding the support of victims and survivors. Our focus is on delivering meaningful, tangible change for victims and survivors. That means delivering on the key recommendations of Professor Jay’s national inquiry, getting perpetrators behind bars and, most importantly of all, protecting children today.”
“The Home Secretary and I have always been clear that the first priority in tackling this heinous offending is getting perpetrators behind bars, and getting justice for the victims and survivors. That is why all police forces in England and Wales have been asked to review historical grooming gangs investigations that were closed with no further action, and to pursue new lines of inquiry and reopen investigations where appropriate. We are also going further than ever before to support local areas to hold independent local inquiries, which can drive action and accountability at a local level. That is what inquiries in Telford, Manchester and Rotherham have delivered effectively, and that is the approach we would like to see rolled out elsewhere. In January, we said that we would support five local inquiries.”
“This Government are determined to get to the truth of both historical and current grooming gangs, to ensure that perpetrators are punished and to deliver justice and accountability for victims and survivors. That is why we are pressing ahead with the key recommendations of the independent inquiry, including the mandatory duty to report. Baroness Casey, who conducted a no-holds-barred review into grooming gangs’ offending in Rotherham, is currently overseeing a national audit of group-based child sexual exploitation and abuse. The audit will identify what further work is needed. It is looking at the scale, nature and profile of group-based abuse, including the characteristics of offenders. It will conclude in the coming weeks, and I have already committed to publishing the findings.”
“The shadow Home Secretary was away when I updated the House on the Government’s response to the independent national inquiry into child sexual abuse, and on the action that we are taking to investigate and tackle child grooming gangs across the country. As I have said many times, people up and down this country are understandably horrified by the appalling crimes committed by despicable grooming gangs. Children were subjected to the most unthinkable sexual violence. Frontline services, local authorities and elected politicians turned away or even blamed the children, rather than their rapists. I know this because I speak to victims week in, week out, and I have done so for decades.”
“I have been trying to change things on the ground all my life, since the very first time I met a girl who had been ignored. I will continue to do that, and do what is right for the victims.”
“I thank the shadow Home Secretary. I do not need to read out the things found in other local inquiries to know, because I speak to the victims. I spoke to some of the victims of grooming gangs this morning, and I will speak to some more tomorrow. I have spoken to them from Oxford, from Birmingham, from Rochdale, from Rotherham and from Oldham. I know exactly the issue of the cover-up, as does everybody already, because of the many local inquiries that have told us this happened and the national inquiry that has told us there were cover-ups. What we must focus on is making sure, as happened in Telford, that there is a local process of accountability that actually changes things on the ground, and that is what I will do.”
“I absolutely agree that action is what is needed, which is exactly why the Home Secretary has written to all police forces in England and Wales seeking to ensure that more arrests are made in these cases. The grooming gangs taskforce has in the past nine months made 597 arrests, surpassing the entire previous year, because we are so heavily focused on ensuring that these people end up behind bars. I think Professor Jay was ignored by the previous Government, and had we had mandatory reporting 10 years ago, when the current Home Secretary asked for it, perhaps more people would have been held accountable.”
“I thank the hon. Lady, and I agree with her that inquiries are only worth anything if we crack on. That is why, when I came to this House before the recess, I said it would go alongside the publishing of an action plan on the recommendations of the Jay report and Jay’s work into grooming gangs. That has all been published as part of a Government plan, but it is only the beginning. Actually, this is going to take years and years. On the duty of candour, it seems appalling that we have to ask people to tell the truth, yet here we are. Of course, that is what we must be striving for, as the hon. Lady says, on behalf of the victims and survivors.”
“Yes. As was outlined in Professor Alexis Jay’s report, the need for an overreaching authority to ensure accountability across the child protection system was made very clear. As we roll out the new authority, we are consulting many experts on what exactly it needs to look like and ensuring that we get the very best possible. I am sick of hearing lessons learned in a serious case review about a child rape, a child rape gang or a child death. There needs to be genuine accountability and things need to change.”
“I will answer the question of when. The framework for what local authorities will be tasked with will be released later in May, as will Baroness Casey’s review, which I have committed to publishing. All those things will be dependent on each other. I cannot stand here and say exactly what that will look like, because I do not know what Baroness Casey will say about any particular area and what I might need to focus on. I will go on the basis of facts—something that does not happen very often in this debate, I have to say. I will follow the facts; wherever they tell me that there are victims who need help, that is where I will go.”
“As my hon. Friend points out, I have spoken to and worked with victims of crime for many years. What they want, fundamentally, is for the things that happened to them not to happen to children today. That is the change they wish to see more than anything—more than they want any sort of justice. Ensuring that the new authority does that, and that it is not just words on paper, will therefore be absolutely vital and will deliver that fundamental victims’ need. When we consult experts on the child protection authority, we will ensure that organisations such as the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, which has panels of specialist victims groups to assist its work, will be part of that.”
“Once again, I praise the hon. Gentleman for raising this issue over a number of years; others have come to it more recently. We have a meeting in our diary, so I will make him an offer: I would very much like to meet the victims he is talking about. I will gladly sit down with them. I want the hon. Gentleman to know that he has my guarantee that, if in the work Baroness Casey is doing around problem profiling and police forces across the country local authorities are found to have problems, I will pursue them.”
“I agree with every one of the asks of that sexual assault referral centre. I am working closely with the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones), to try to do all those things. Unfortunately, we cannot mend a very broken system overnight. It is very important for me to say, though, that the cases of grooming gangs that I have come across are horrible—some of the worst I have ever seen—yet sometimes we forget how harrowing it is for children who have been raped by their fathers, their stepfathers or people in children’s institutions. There is no hierarchy; they all deserve our love, care and dedication to taking action for them.”
“That does not deserve a response—and I actually quite like the hon. Gentleman. I have spent my entire career helping— [ Interruption. ] I wonder how many victims of grooming gangs he has sat and held hands with in court, and for how many he has gone round to their house in the morning to get them out of bed to get them into a courtroom. There is no way that I would be part of any cover-up. I will do everything I can, under a Home Secretary who will do everything she can, to ensure that those who are responsible are held accountable.”
“My hon. Friend raises an important point. We often talk about historic cover-ups and failings, but we must also keep our eye on exactly where grooming is going on now and will take place in the future. She points out, completely rightly, that there is an ongoing grooming issue. Through the taskforce and work with various security departments, I have seen great examples of quite how focused police enforcement is on that. Do I think that social media companies could be doing more? The answer will always be yes.”
“As I said, I will consider the situation as it unfolds. What I would say is with the amount of money that the Government are allocating for local inquiries— [ Interruption. ] From a sedentary position, the shadow Home Secretary said, “It’s not enough,” but it is millions more than the zero that the previous Government allocated. When Oldham and Telford wrote to the previous Government to ask for help, answer came there none. I will follow the leads that are left for me.”
“Absolutely, and I say with the voice of the victims I have worked with over the years and have spoken to even today that the fundamental that they want is that children who come forward today—to their teacher, their social worker or whoever it is—do not suffer as they did. Keeping our eye on making sure that people are held accountable for the past will deliver justice only if we also look at the now.”
“I absolutely agree. I remember working in a Rape Crisis centre when the Jimmy Savile scandal was revealed and it was like being hit by a tsunami—the phone lines lit up. As I said before Easter in response to the Jay inquiry, making sure that we have robust mental health support for children who are victims is really important. I also announced that the Home Office would double the amount of money it provides for adult historic rape victims, in recognition that we may bring more people forward and therefore need to improve access to support.”
“Absolutely. There are systemic problems with how women and girls are treated, and sometimes cover-ups are ignored. I am afraid to say that there is still a cultural sense of women feeling that they will not be believed if they come forward. We have to look fundamentally at all the systems across Government, which is what I and my colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones), who is leading on the violence against women and girls strategy, will do.”
“I appreciate that that is where the whole story began for the hon. Gentleman, but it is not where the whole story began. Oldham council had written, I believe, twice before to the previous Government—”
“I will check the record and make sure, but what I am absolutely certain of is the number of times that Telford council wrote and asked. I am aware that Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Oxford, or any of the places that have had an inquiry, were never given a single bean by the previous Government to do that work, and yet here we are and we will do it.”
“I commend my hon. Friend’s work, and I know she is coming to see me with some of those healthcare workers. Sara Rowbotham—a woman I know well who works in sexual health services—was one of the whistleblowers in the Rochdale case. We absolutely need to ensure that, as we make progress, we listen to anybody who interacts with children and that people have space to come forward and speak up. The mandatory duty to report will go some way, but changing the culture to ensure that people are listened to and heard—in the health setting they know that better than in most—is definitely something that we will learn.”
“I delight in the hon. Gentleman’s interest, and what I would say to every single Member of this House is that I will work with absolutely anybody to make this better. I am more than happy to meet him and talk about any level of co-operation, because if people are genuinely here to try to stop the grooming gangs in this country, I am genuinely here to help.”
“I absolutely do not expect it to do that. Baroness Casey is seeking to do an audit of the problem profiles around the country, looking at exactly where the data does or does not exist and where there are failings. It was intended to be a rapid audit. The framework for good local inquiries is being worked on by a series of experts, including Tom Crowther and Alexis Jay. Details of the fund that local authorities can apply to will also be published by the end of May.”
“I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman. I wish to see people who covered this up held accountable within the law and the frameworks that exist. If people have concerns about things and would like to bring specific cases to me, the police have the power to investigate those things. Had mandatory reporting laws existed sooner, we might have been in a better situation, but I completely agree that it is appalling that no one has been held to account.”
“Of course I agree. I want the perpetrators to be held accountable. What I can say without any doubt is that, as local inquiries have told us, people have covered things up, whether asked to or not, for seemingly multicultural reasons. That cannot stand. That said, we will always follow the facts to ensure that we completely and utterly deal with it.”
“Group-based grooming, which includes some terrible examples of British children being groomed from abroad and vice versa, is something that we are acutely aware of. Whether it forms part of what Baroness Casey finds, I will leave to her to say. I will say, however, that it absolutely forms part of the strategy of work that the Government have laid out for preventing child sexual abuse.”
“I want to be clear that local inquiries must be independent. The chair of Telford inquiry was independent, and Professor Alexis Jay chaired the Rotherham inquiry. They are independent inquiries and they are not run by local authorities.”
“The grooming gangs taskforce will work with local police force areas. The whole point is that it works operationally with local police forces to ensure best practice. That has led to 1,100 more arrests for group-based child sexual abuse since the taskforce was set up. There is a huge amount of resource in that centre. I encourage local areas and local police forces always to be working with the taskforce.”
“I will not answer the second point, which I think strays slightly from this urgent question, but what I will say is that I wonder if the hon. and learned Gentleman has read the 200-page document of the national inquiry into group-based child sexual abuse that already exists and has statutory powers. If he or anyone in the House has not read it, I encourage them to do that.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for mentioning boys and giving me the opportunity to say the following. I made a promise to one of the Oldham victims when I met her that I would always say that grooming gangs could happen to boys and girls, because it was her son who had lost his life, so I thank my hon. Friend for allowing me to do that. There will be a delay in the preparation and rolling out of mandatory reporting exactly because we must make sure the guidance and the regulation that sits behind it and the training that will have to be put in place are right. We need that not so much for social workers and others who already have that sort of training, but there will also be sports coaches and volunteers, because huge numbers of institutions work with children, and getting this right is more important than rushing ahead with it.”
“I do not agree with that. Politically, the easiest thing for me to have done in this situation would have been to capitulate, but I do not think it is the right thing to do. I genuinely believe that from my years of work and speaking to the victims and working in Telford with those victims about what changed afterwards. I would not do it—I would not stand here if I did not believe it. And as for the idea that I am trying to protect something of myself, this process has, I have to say, not been protecting of me and, frankly, that is an absolutely disgraceful thing to say.”
“What we have proposed is better because it is about acting now in areas where it is needed. We have already had a national inquiry, which took seven years and wrote a 200-page dossier on group-based sexual abuse— [Interruption.] There was a 200-page dossier specifically on that, and it took two years just to do that, and it made really good recommendations. I genuinely believe that the best thing for me to do is crack on with them.”
“I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s desire to always be respectful. I shall pay it back in kind and say that there is absolutely no way that the Government wish for the past to be forgotten or for a line to be drawn. That is absolutely the opposite of what I want. I want every single perpetrator rounded up and locked up; I want every single victim to feel supported; and I want everybody who covered these actions up to be held accountable for that— [ Interruption. ] I can hear chuntering from the shadow Home Secretary, who does not always show respect. There is this idea that people are held accountable by public inquiries, but that is not the case; nobody has gone to prison following the Hillsborough inquiry. Has anyone gone to prison as a result of the infected blood inquiry? No. Hon.”
“The amendments are therefore unnecessary, although I accept the spirit in which they were probably intended. Amendment 50 seeks to place a duty on the police to notify victims—”
“It is important to recognise that these restrictions are necessary to ensure that high-risk offenders are managed effectively in the community and to protect the public from the risk of sexual harm. I will deal briefly with amendments 36 to 38 tabled by the hon. Member for Stockton West. It is already an offence under section 91 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 either to fail to comply with the notification requirements or to knowingly provide false information to the police in purported compliance. These offences are currently punishable, when tried on indictment, by up to five years’ imprisonment. The amendments would, in effect, considerably lower the existing punishments for non-compliance with the notification requirements. A potential custodial sentence or an unlimited fine is already a strong deterrent for non-compliance.”
“However, the police will still be able to refuse approval in those instances if it is necessary to protect the public from the risk of sexual harm. Clause 66 allows for information sharing between the police and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency so that the DVLA can make the police aware of any unauthorised attempts to change a name on a driving licence. Equivalent processes already exist for passports and immigration documents. This will ensure that those registered sex offenders who are deemed to be at risk of using a name change to commit sexual harm are unable to continue offending under a new name and pass under the radar of law enforcement.”
“This measure will apply to those offenders with convictions for child sexual offences or who are deemed by the police to pose a risk of sexual harm to children. It will ensure that the police receive actionable information with which they can take steps to safeguard children. Clause 66 gives the police the power to issue registered sex offenders who pose an additional risk a notice that restricts them from changing their name on identity documents—namely passports, driving licences or immigration documents—without police approval. Any failure to seek approval from the police will be a breach punishable by a maximum sentence of five years’ imprisonment. The police will be able to give approval to name changes where there is a relevant condition, for example where an offender gets married or changes religion.”
“That 12 hours is not cumulative, leading to potential safeguarding risks and operational challenges. For example, the police face challenges in evidencing an offender’s presence in a household for more than 12 hours or contradicting offenders’ assertions that they were in the household for less than 12 hours. Sadly, abuse can take place in any timeframe. These changes aim to enhance the safety of children by requiring offenders to notify the police in advance of going into premises where children are present. The clause includes a power to specify the premises in secondary legislation, so that the requirement can apply to more categories of premises than households and we can amend the list as and when needed.”
“It is clear from our engagement with the police that the current legislation could be exploited by offenders staying at several different addresses for periods of just under seven days, meaning they do not have to notify. This change will enable the police to receive more actionable information about the offender’s travel plans and it will close the opportunity for them to spend up to seven days at many different addresses without notifying. Clause 61 seeks to strengthen the management of registered sex offenders by providing the police with actionable information in advance of an offender entering specified premises where children are present. The current legislation requires all registered sex offenders to notify the police after spending 12 hours in a household with children.”
“The clause strengthens the current requirements by ensuring that sex offenders give notification of name changes in advance, which will support the police in ensuring that safeguards are in place. Clause 60 introduces a requirement for registered sex offenders to notify the police when they intend to be absent from their sole or main residence for more than five days. It also requires offenders to tell the police of their intention to be absent no less than 12 hours before leaving their home address. Currently, offenders are required to notify the police of any address where they spend seven consecutive days or seven days cumulatively in a 12-month period.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Roger, while we expect a vote. As we are quorate, I will move on with this task. I will come on to answer the questions put by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Stockton West, but will first go through the relevant clauses. Ensuring that the system for managing sex offenders is as robust as it can be is a crucial part of delivering the mission to halve violence against women and girls in a decade. It is important that the police have the right tools to manage sex offenders and prevent reoffending. Clause 59 requires registered sex offenders to notify the police of a new name no less than seven days before using it. Currently, when an offender changes their name, they are required to notify the police no more than three days after the change.”
“She had not heard from him or anything of him for decades, and the effect of the notification on her was one of calamity: it was to see her life turned upside down by something she had moved past. One can only ask how we would administer such a system, with an opt-in and opt-out, when we are talking, specifically in relation to sex offender notification systems, of periods of decades. Therefore, although I absolutely recognise the intention behind the amendment, I wonder whether cases can be cited in which this type of notification would have made a difference but did not happen. I would be happy to hear from and speak to the hon. Member for Stockton West about that.”
“As I was saying before we were so democratically interrupted, amendment 50 seeks to place a duty on the police to notify victims when an offender intends to change their name. Again, I entirely understand the intention behind the amendment, but the police are already able to disclose information, on a discretionary basis, to protect victims from further harm. It is important to note that many victims will simply not want to be notified of information relating to the perpetrator of the crime, especially if they have made considerable efforts to move on with their lives. I handled a case of this type very recently. A woman came to see me about her abusive father.”
“The police may record the employment status of individuals on their systems where that is relevant, but to routinely require forces to collate and publish employment data would have questionable gains. Such resources are considerably better focused on the management of offenders. The Ministry of Justice publishes data annually on registered sex offenders who are subject to multi-agency public protection arrangements, and we are confident that the police already have the systems in place to record appropriate data to ensure that offenders are managed according to their risk. I recognise the spirit in which the amendments were tabled but, given what I have said, I hope that the hon. Member for Stockton West will withdraw his amendment.”
“Sometimes state failure has exacerbated that, so we have to have a pragmatic system that allows for the risk to be assessed and the needs of the victim to be assessed to see whether notification would be a requirement, and that currently exists. New clause 55 seeks to introduce a requirement for data on the employment status of convicted sex offenders to be published on an annual basis. I reassure the hon. Member for Stockton West that registered sex offenders are managed under multi-agency public protection arrangements and will already have in place a risk management plan that considers employment information. That would allow the offender managers to manage risks around employment post conviction.”
“I have met victims of childhood sexual abuse, for example, who have suffered trauma years and years into the future. I have to say that, in recent years, that has been very badly exacerbated by delays in our courts system. I have worked with children who were sexually abused in childhood, who do not see the inside of a courtroom until they are adults, causing a period of developmental delay in their lives. Their lives remain on hold while they are waiting for a system to deliver something for them. I have seen that affect their working lives. I have seen it affect their mental health beyond anything that should have happened.”
“That is absolutely the spirit in which I wish to proceed. I always welcome any conversation that any Opposition Back Bencher, and indeed Front Bencher, wishes to have with me. Question put, That the amendment be made.”