Jess Phillips
MP for Birmingham Yardley · Labour · United Kingdom
“I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Claire Hazelgrove). Mainly because I am a bit lazy, I rarely prepare to speak in debates, and never have copious notes. Her remarks have led where my remarks will go. I will cover the issue of coercion, which hon.”
“Then, when it came to the point that a doctor made the call and said, “Your mom is about to die,” my brother could not come back—this was about four weeks later. So it was me who was with my mom when she died—not all of her children, and not all of her grandchildren. I am eternally grateful that I was there.”
“She was doubly incontinent by this point. To give hon. Members an idea of the kind of woman my mother was, she was an absolute titan. She was like Erin Brockovich, but with a bad perm, in the 1980s. She could lay claim to being able to spot talent, because she gave a job to the current Prime Minister, who worked for her for some time.”
“She did not die in terrible pain—I recognise what my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Ashley Dalton) is saying. She was not writhing. It was not awful. However, she should have been able to choose to have her family with her. I will vote for this Bill.”
“Suicide currently outstrips homicide as the main reason for the deaths of women in cases of domestic abuse and coercive control, so what the right hon. Gentleman outlines is currently happening. Arguing for the status quo is not something I feel comfortable with.”
“It is very good to hear the Minister commit to checking whether guidance is enough. Many of us who have tried to rehouse victims of domestic abuse, even after great laws have been written into legislation in this place, will know that getting them the priority need status under the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 still takes a huge amount of advo…”
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“I have realised that I did not answer one question after the Divisions. The hon. Member for Stockton West asked about the justification for the regulation-making power in clause 60; I refer him to paragraph 90 of the delegated powers memorandum for the details on that. On amendments regarding a £2,500 fine, under the existing legal framework a person would go to prison for up to five years and face an unlimited fine, so the amendment would weaken the current position. I want to make that completely clear before we divide. On the hon. Member for Windsor’s point about it being a constructive conversation, as somebody who sat on the Opposition Benches and moved hundreds of amendments over the years, in my view the point was always to have a constructive conversation with the Government about what would make things better.”
“Clause 64 Review of indefinite notification requirements (England and Wales) Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“In practice, that will mean that an offender must use, for example, video calling software—which we all got used to—to communicate with their offender manager, with both being visible and audible to each other. In the independent review of the police-led management of registered sex offenders in the community, Mick Creedon said: “I strongly recommend that discretion is incorporated into the notification requirement regime. Whilst the requirements might still be common at the point of conviction, the subsequent risk assessment and management plan should vary, allowing forces to assess which details to collect and how individuals should notify, affording opportunities for online or remote notification where appropriate.” Question put and agreed to. Clause 63 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.”
“It will also reduce the likelihood of unintentional but unavoidable breaches of the notification requirements due to, for example, offenders being unable to travel to a police station before the statutory three-day time limit as a result of health or mobility issues. This measure will make it easier for offenders to comply with the requirements and will allow the police to manage any risks more efficiently. The measures will apply only where the police deem it safe and appropriate to notify virtually. If there is any risk that an offender is misusing the permission, the police have the power to revoke it and require that notification take place in person. The police can allow an offender to notify via a means that enables both parties to see and hear each other without being in the same place.”
“It is absolutely fine, Sir Roger. Clauses 63 provides the police with the power to receive virtual notifications from registered sex offenders in specified circumstances. It was a direct recommendation from Chief Constable Mick Creedon’s independent review into the police-led management of registered sex offenders in the community, which the Home Office published in 2023. The police will be able to give permission to notify virtually only to offenders they deem suitable. The police will be able to revoke this permission at any time, and retain a power to compel the registered sex offender to attend a police station to notify. This change will make it easier and quicker for specified sex offenders to notify changes to the police, thereby improving efficiency.”
“Chief Constable Mick Creedon recommended in his independent review into the police-led management of registered sex offenders in the community that the police should have the discretion to proactively review a registered sex offender’s indefinite notification requirements once the statutory minimum duration has elapsed. Although registered sex offenders already have the right to apply for a review once the minimum duration has passed, these clauses will give the police in England, Wales and Northern Ireland the ability to initiate a review themselves. The process will remain the same as that for offender-initiated reviews. The police must seek information from other agencies responsible for the risk management of registered sex offenders to inform their decisions about whether to discharge the indefinite notification requirements.”
“Registered sex offenders who receive a sentence of imprisonment of 30 months or more must comply with the notification requirements indefinitely after 15 years, or eight for juveniles. They may apply for the police to review and, if appropriate, discharge their notification requirements. There is currently no power for the police to proactively review an offender’s indefinite notification requirements after 15 years. That results in offenders who are unable to make an application—for example, due to a disability—remaining subject to the notification requirements unnecessarily.”
“There is a real need for officers to be really focused on where risk is the greatest, so that they can protect the public. Protection of the public is where Mick Creedon is coming from in his review, and that is why the clause exists. Question put and agreed to. Clause 64 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 65 and 66 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 67 Power of entry and search Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“It came from a Home Office review that was published under the previous Government, in which Mick Creedon wrote: “I recommend that legislation places the responsibility on the police service to proactively consider and, if suitable, apply for indefinite notification requirements to be removed where justifiable without applications from the individuals.” This is coming from Mick Creedon and those who lead police forces, who I have met specifically to discuss the management of sex offenders. Actually, a success in an area of safeguarding law over a number of years is that an increasing number of people have been convicted of sex offences, which is largely down to growing numbers of people being convicted because the evidence base of online child abuse, for example, has grown.”
“I thank the shadow Minister for his questions. These amendments to the law were very much in the predecessor Bill to this one; I think I am the only person who has now sat through this Bill Committee twice. There have not been substantial changes from the point at which the previous Government wished to seek these changes. Frankly, this is a minor amendment that has been asked for by the very experts who currently manage the risk within the community.”
“It will bring the power of entry and search in line with other similar provisions, where lower-rank officers are able to apply for warrants. Finally, clause 68 and schedule 9 make minor and consequential amendments to the Sexual Offences Act 2003 as a result of the changes introduced in this part of the Bill.”
“The aim of clause 67 is to improve the process by which the police obtain warrants to enter and search registered sex offenders’ homes to assess their risk of sexual harm. Currently, under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, a superintendent is required to make an application to a court for a warrant in person. Setting the requirement at that level can cause delays to warrants being obtained. This measure will lower the rank of officer able to authorise an application to inspector and enable the application in court to be made by a constable. Allowing officers below the rank of superintendent to apply for and obtain such warrants will make the process more efficient, which will help improve the police’s management of offenders.”
“The shadow Minister makes some interesting points. It is impossible for me to say now exactly how much this will improve things in the future, but it will obviously be kept under review. The Government have set up a specific unit, the national centre for VAWG and public protection—the creation of a specialist policing centre for specific active training and specialisation in the space of public protection, child abuse and violence against women and girls. I think that specialist training is required not only here but across the board. We need to ensure that all police forces across England and Wales have standardised practice in public protection and safeguarding. Question put and agreed to. Clause 67 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause 68 ordered to stand part of the Bill . Schedule 9 agreed to .”
“Restraining orders were not designed specifically to address the risks associated with stalking, and cannot impose positive requirements that address the root causes of the stalking behaviour. This measure therefore provides for stronger protections for victims of stalking.”
“These changes will enable the courts to make an SPO of their own volition at the conclusion of criminal proceedings in situations where the defendant has been convicted or acquitted. In both scenarios, there can still be a real need to ensure that safeguards and protections are in place for victims. It can be all too easy for defendants who are sentenced to time in prison to continue stalking their victim from prison—I know that, because it happened to me. For defendants who are acquitted, the court may consider there is still a need to safeguard the victim from any further stalking behaviour. The Government’s view is that the current process of using restraining orders in these situations is not sufficient, and that was echoed in the recent super-complaint on the police response to stalking.”
“Stalking is a high-harm, high-volume form of violence against women and girls. It is important that the right tools are in place to manage stalking perpetrators and to ensure that victims are protected at the earliest opportunity. The changes in the clause widen the situations in which a stalking protection order can be issued. SPOs were introduced in 2019, with the aim of ensuring that effective protections were put in place as soon as risk is identified for victims of stalking. Let me pay tribute to somebody once of this parish: Alex Chalk. He is no longer a Member of Parliament, but he was an incredible advocate for changing the law on stalking and always a pleasure to work with when I was in opposition. Currently, only the police can apply for an SPO, with applications considered by the magistrates court.”
“It is quite hard for me to sit here and have people talk to me about how traumatic it is to be a victim of stalking—about the things that happen that change people’s lives forever—because my life has changed immeasurably because of the stalking that I currently experience, and that happens to me all the time. When I have tried to get SPOs for other people, one of the main problems I have perceived is delay in the courts, which others have identified. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam is in the lucky position of representing one of the rare places in the country where people can get a DAPN or a domestic abuse protection order.”
“The legislation is currently under review, as Claire Waxman and others in the coalition recommended. The super-complaint showed that when used properly, SPOs are considered an extremely valuable tool in protecting victims of stalking, but it also identified that not enough are being put in place, as other hon. Members have identified, and that there is not effective monitoring of the ones that are. There is clearly much more to the issue than this legislation. I sat for years considering well-written legislation; I do not have many good things to say about the past 14 years, but the words that got written on goatskin were considerably better than the words that had existed before. But they are pointless if they do not change things on the ground.”
“I will start at the end and work backwards through the questions. It was a delight to hear everybody mention the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which is an amazing organisation that I have had the pleasure to work with for many years. Since becoming a Minister, I have had the especial pleasure of working very closely with the trust on how we come out of the super-complaint with the recommendations and improve the situation all round. I would say exactly the same thing about Claire Waxman, who is both my friend and my colleague. On the issue of the legislation, part of the super-complaint was about the need to look at the different specific offences. I do not disagree that the bar can be too high or that there can be confusion about the two different offences.”
“If someone tries to get an order and cannot, they start to think, “What’s the point?” On the shadow Minister’s point about breaches, any order—and I know because I have them—is only as good as what happens when it is breached. If nothing happens when somebody breaches an order, the victim does not bother reporting them any more, and they certainly do not bother trying to get another order, on acquittal or not.”
“Absolutely. The Metropolitan police’s decision to use those three particular boroughs for the domestic abuse protection orders was undoubtedly based on intelligence, and also on what we can best learn. We have seen with the domestic abuse protection orders that someone can get in and out of a courtroom within 24 hours. That has absolutely not been the case with SPOs classically, nor am I going to stand here and pretend that I can make that happen with all orders. What I am saying is that there is a standard, and safety and risk have to be considered. Looking across the board following the super-complaint, these clauses are a step in the right direction. This is about changing how things happen on the ground and giving people the confidence to access the orders.”
“Again, the courts are well versed in making such balancing judgments. As somebody who has had orders made where the judgment has had to be balanced—for example, where there has been a question whether the respondent has a right to contact me because I am their Member of Parliament—I relied on the court to decide what was practicable in those circumstances. The shadow Minister asked for an example, but it would be dangerous for me as a Minister to give examples that could then be used in a court. Courts deal with balancing the rights of the respondent and the victim. I will not pretend that I think they always get it right, but it is for them to decide how to balance those particular considerations.”
“Well, counter-terrorism has it, and the number of victims of violence against women and girls dwarfs by a country mile the number of people affected by terrorism in our country, but there is not standardised training for police to ensure that, where the legislation might be complicated, they can move things forward—even if the legislation were not changed, which we are seeking to do—or training about how quickly police should be applying for things. These are all things that will take time and training, and we cannot just rely on legislation to answer all the questions. The requirements attached to an SPO must be proportionate, so it is right that a court takes into account the impact on the respondent’s religious beliefs, education and employment, for example. The court is only required to avoid conflicts so far as it is practicable.”
“Exactly. We rely on our courts to ensure that these decisions are proportionate. In order to get proportionate decisions on breaches, we need to ensure that our criminal justice system is better trained across the board. From the Home Office’s perspective, I point to the fact that this Government have finally invested in a specific policing unit on violence against women and girls, public protection and safeguarding for the entire country. That has not existed before. I always say, “I want what counter-terrorism has got”.”
“It is extremely dangerous for victims to be unaware of the true identity of who is stalking them online. This measure is an important aspect of ensuring that victims of stalking have the best possible protections and safeguards in place.”
“I had the privilege of working with Nicola Thorp, who has tirelessly campaigned for this measure after her ordeal with stalking. In her case, the police said they could not reveal the identity of the offender even after he was arrested, despite the perpetrator once saying that he had got so close to Nicola on the train that he “could smell” her. Clause 72 provides for the introduction of statutory guidance, which will set out the process the police should follow to decide whether they can release the identity of a stalking suspect. In doing so, they will need to consider the risk to the victim and what steps are needed to safeguard them from further harm. The police will have to have due regard to the guidance. We know that stalkers will often use multiple online aliases to terrorise their victims.”
“In short, this measure provides a framework to support professionals to better respond to the needs of stalking victims and to better manage stalking perpetrators. I have seen amazing examples of that. In fact, the two best examples in the country are in London and Cheshire, where multi-agency solutions, with local health services, victims services and police sitting together, are dealing not just with the victim’s trauma or getting a criminal justice response, but with the medical element—the psychological issue—of people with obsessive behaviours. I cannot praise those two multi-agency units enough. It is important that the right procedures and policies are in place to safeguard victims of stalking as early as possible. Our manifesto committed to giving victims the right to know the identity of their online stalker.”
“Following what I was just saying about making things actually change on the ground, these clauses are about doing some of that. It is important that professionals with safeguarding responsibilities, such as the police, teachers, healthcare professionals and social workers, have adequate and clear guidance to support them in their work to tackle stalking and to support victims. We must also ensure that such professionals are doing all they can to pursue perpetrators while adequately safeguarding victims. To do that effectively, they must work together. Clause 71 therefore enables the Home Secretary to issue multi-agency statutory guidance on stalking. It will apply to relevant public authorities and professionals will have to have due regard to it.”
“Clause 71 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 72 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 73 Administering etc harmful substances (including by spiking)”
“More broadly, monitoring progress on stalking will form part of the wider ambition to halve violence against women and girls and the work that I, the Policing Minister and the Home Secretary seek to do around how we monitor the standards of policing more widely and assess how well policing is doing in many different areas. I would like to point out something shocking: currently, the police do not have any required standards for reporting on their performance around domestic abuse, sexual violence and stalking. I think the people of this country would be quite shocked to realise that we do not routinely assess the standards of forces on those things. The shadow Minister has my absolute guarantee that monitoring how such things actually work on the ground is something that I will do until the day I die. Question put and agreed to.”
“I wish there was a place where stalking cases were less prevalent—what there will be are areas where stalking cases are less prevalently reported. To return to those two brilliant multi-agency examples, doing a job really well often increases the crime rate in that area, which is sometimes quite difficult for police forces to deal with. I pay credit to those that bother to do it. The shadow Minister points out that the guidance is advisory, but professionals will be required to have regard to the guidance, and we will continue to work with representatives from the agencies, the stalking sector and others to monitor progress in this area.”
“Bringing those supervised roles into regulated activity will also make it an offence for a barred person to apply for or undertake those roles, and an offence for an employer to knowingly employ them in those roles. With this measure, we will reduce the risk of a barred person working with children in a supervised capacity. Question put and agreed to. Clause 77 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. — (Keir Mather .)”
“In the final report of the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, it recommended that anyone engaging an individual to work or volunteer with children on a frequent basis should be able to check whether they have been barred by the DBS from working with children, including where the role is supervised. The Government agree. Clause 77 therefore gives effect to that recommendation. It removes the supervision exemption so that these roles will be defined as regulated activity, regardless of whether they are supervised. That will allow employers to access enhanced DBS checks that include a check of the children’s barred list.”
“That means that people in roles that involve close work with children are not in regulated activity if they are working under supervision. That supervision exemption means that employers cannot check whether such people are on the children’s barred list, which creates a safeguarding risk. It means that somebody who the DBS considers to pose a risk of harm to children, such that they have been barred from working in regulated activity with them, could nevertheless work with them under supervision and without the employer’s knowledge. That cannot be right.”
“The Disclosure and Barring Service issues criminal record checks in England and Wales to support employers to make decisions about the suitability of individuals for particular roles. The DBS also maintains two lists of individuals whom it has barred from working in regulated activity: the adults’ and children’s barred lists. Regulated activity is defined in legislation and covers sensitive roles and activities working closely with children and vulnerable adults—for example, teaching and supervising children. Roles in regulated activity are eligible for the highest level of DBS check, namely the enhanced with barred lists check. Under the current definition of regulated activity, there is an exemption for work that is subject to day-to-day supervision of another person.”
“However, this is absolutely something that we are keenly looking at, and I imagine that when there is future legislation, largely on immigration, we will have these debates again. Question put and agreed to. Clause 44 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause 45 Duty to report suspected child sex offences”
“The Government do, however, recognise that the automatic deportation regime does not capture some offenders, who get shorter sentences. I recognise that and it bothers me. We intend to bring forward proposals later this year to simplify the deportation regime and address lower-level offending. I am not calling child sex abuse lower-level offending, but if we think of the most famous case of child sex abuse offending that we have had in recent years, I believe it resulted in a suspended sentence of eight weeks. While I certainly do not think it is lower-level offending, that is often is how it is treated. At this time, we do not advocate taking a piecemeal approach to making changes in the Bill that would mandate the deportation of every foreign national charged with an offence under section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978.”
“The idea that British children would be made safer by deporting somebody to another country is not something I would recognise. The system of then handing people over, so that actually people serve their sentences here, is probably something that we would be keen to see. The power to deport can be used when somebody has not been convicted of an offence, so actually the powers in the new clause already exist. The Government take the matter of foreign nationals committing criminal offences in the UK extremely seriously. We deport foreign national offenders in appropriate cases, including all offenders sentenced to more than 12 months. New clause 28 is therefore unlikely to result in any more deportations, given these existing powers.”
“However, I would say that that is automatically the case with more than 12 months; where that threshold is not met, a foreign national can already be deported on the grounds that their deportation is conducive to the public good, under section 3 of the Immigration Act 1971. The power to deport under the 1971 Act can also be used to deport a foreign national even where they have not been convicted of an offence. The hon. Member for Isle of Wight East—is that like “Wicked”, with a Wicked Witch of the West and of the East? [ Interruption. ] Oh, the hon. Gentleman is the Good Witch. He certainly made an important point about child abuse, especially online, which new clause 28—this comes from a very good place—seeks to determine: it is not that child abuse knows any border, but child abuse imagery especially knows no border.”
“The UK has existing powers to deport foreign nationals who commit sexual offences. Under the UK Borders Act, a foreign national must be deported if they are convicted of any offence in the UK and sentenced to at least 12 months’ imprisonment, unless an exception applies. As someone who has worked in the field for many years, however, I recognise that some of the most heinous crimes—the ones that worry us the most and those that the Government are really keen to tackle—are those that frequently get a sentence of less than 12 months. My hon. Friends at the Ministry of Justice are looking, in the sentencing review, at how and why we have a situation where some of the worst crimes against the vulnerable end up with such small sentences. I therefore recognise the point that the hon. Lady is making.”
“New clause 28 seeks to extend the automatic deportation provision in section 32 of the UK Borders Act 2007 to foreign nationals charged with an offence under section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978, or found in possession of sexual abuse images. Where foreign nationals abuse this country’s hospitality by committing crimes, it is right that we consider taking deportation action against them. I could not disagree with the sentiment of the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan, although I would not put it down to just those who use child abuse imagery, rather than those who might have had contact offences with children or those who commit domestic abuse, for example. To see that in such small isolation is fairly problematic for a system that needs some serious attention.”
“Friend the Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention thanked Holly Lynch earlier, and I thank a former Conservative Member of Parliament. Pauline Latham was a brilliant campaigner, a brilliant woman, who I worked alongside many times on issues such as this. She tried to get this clause into a number of different private Members’ Bills and so on. She was definitely trying to help, but the previous Government, I am afraid to say, were resisting this clause, perhaps because of time—we have already had this Bill once, and I am not sure why the clause was being resisted, but that is what I found when I entered the Home Office. I am therefore proud to commend the clause to the Committee, and I thank Pauline Latham for always speaking up frankly—regardless of who she was speaking up to—about what was right.”
“I will first answer the hon. Lady’s question about how Border Force officers will decide what reasonable grounds of suspicion are. Officers will rely on various indicators of reasonable suspicion. Those could include whether the individual is a registered sex offender—which is quite clear—frequent travel to destinations included on the list of countries under section 172 of the Police, Crime and Sentencing Act 2022, or the presence of child abuse paraphernalia in their luggage. Unfortunately, I have seen some of the seizures in such cases, and some really horrendous stuff gets found in people’s luggage, so if someone had some of those terrible things—child-like dolls, for example—that would be reasonable suspicion. For the purposes of this clause specifically, I give particular thanks. My right hon.”
“I will answer some of the questions that have been asked, specifically those on guidance for the duty and the people within local authorities whom we are talking about. The Government will set out clear guidance on the operation of the duty, but we will also work with regulators and professional standard-setting bodies to ensure that the new duty is clearly communicated ahead of implementation.”
“In designing the duty, we have sought to minimise any disruption to well-established reporting processes. Clause 45(7), which this amendment seeks to remove, ensures that a reporter will not have to make a notification under the duty if they are aware that a report has already been made. Subsection (7) means that, for example, an inexperienced volunteer or newly qualified professional can refer an incident to their organisation’s designated safeguarding lead for an onward notification to be made to the local authority or the police. The duty will be satisfied when a mandated reporter receives confirmation that the report has been made on their behalf, and it remains on them until that point.”
“When adults undertaking relevant activity with children have reason to believe that child sexual abuse has occurred, either by being told about it by a child or perpetrator or by witnessing the abuse themselves, the new duty requires that they report it promptly to the police or local authority. Clause 45 applies to the new duty, while clauses 46 and 47 define key practical considerations to whom reports should be made and incidents that qualify as giving a reporter sufficient reason to suspect that abuse has occurred. I will now turn to the amendments in this group, although I do not think some of them will be pressed. Amendment 43 proposes to remove the qualification that, once relevant information has been passed on to the authorities, further duplicate reports are not required. We do not believe that this amendment is necessary.”
“A common reason for those failures was the prioritisation of protecting an individual or institution from reputational damage over the safety and wellbeing of children. Many victims who spoke to the inquiry set out the inadequate and negative responses to their disclosures, which meant that they never wanted to talk about their experiences again. The inquiry’s final report recommended that certain individuals in England should be subject to a mandatory duty to report child sexual abuse when they become aware of it. Clauses 45 to 47 give effect to such a duty.”
“I feel quite proud to commend this clause about mandatory reporting. For much of my professional life and a huge amount of our political lives, we have been trying to get mandatory reporting across the line, so it is a proud moment. Clauses 45 and 47 and schedule 7 introduce the new mandatory duty to report child sexual abuse, building on the recommendation of the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, and I will come on to answer the questions that have been asked of me. The inquiry gathered evidence from many victims and survivors who made disclosures or presented information to a responsible adult with no action being subsequently taken to inform the relevant authorities.”
“This may be required to prevent services that provide confidential support and advice to children from closing ahead of the duties’ commencement, leaving significant gaps in safeguarding provision.”
“Nor do we want to discourage young people from accessing services that are designed to offer support in addressing their own harmful sexual behaviour. Clause 50 gives reporters some discretion in this area, by making it clear that a disclosure by a child can be dealt with outside of the mandatory duty to report. We know that, notwithstanding the introduction of this duty, young people may need some safe spaces to explore disclosures at their own pace or with a trusted adult. Clause 51 therefore confers a regulation-making power on the Home Secretary to exempt specific services from the duty on the exceptional basis where their function relates to the safety or protection of children, and where confidentiality is considered absolutely essential.”