Ms Marie Rimmer
MP for St Helens South and Whiston · Labour · United Kingdom
“I was thinking to myself about coming to this debate and what is going on in the world now. I was thinking about religion and belief and why people are fighting when they should not be. Every single religion is in this book and is represented with beads on this bracelet.”
“Thirdly, because the evidence before us shows that China’s repression is becoming more systematic, more legalised, more normalised and more exportable.”
“We should condemn the persecution of Uyghurs as what it is—a genocide. We should press for transparency in administrative and criminal detention, an end to secret detention practices, proper access to lawyers and families, and due process consistent with international standards.”
“It shows how the law in China is drafted in deliberately vague terms to condemn believers, vaguely accusing them of “harming national interests”, “disrupting social order”, “resisting infiltration” or “extremism.” Such phrases are not carefully bounded legal concepts; they are instruments of selective enforcement.”
“It means that every religious tradition must first be made subordinate to the ideology, priorities and authority of the Communist party. The goal is not merely to make religion Chinese, but to ensure that religion is stripped of its independence and made to serve the party’s political project.”
“The so-called Three-Self Patriotic Movement, a state-sponsored form of Chinese Christianity, is presented by the authorities as the legitimate framework for Protestant worship. This is not simply a matter of registration; it is a matter of subordination.”
The complete record
Every one of 606 lines we hold for Ms Marie Rimmer, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 8 of 13.
“That is an unsustainable situation for Pilkington and its supply chain and for other heavy industry, not just gas production. The Government need to support British glass and heavy industry. Glass customers are now looking to Europe for their glass—one of Pilkington’s largest customers is looking to Europe. It cannot compete. Why? Yes, energy prices are surging there, but the Governments there are working in partnership to share the burden with glass and other heavy industries. They are helping them when they need it—it is called partnership working. That is what partnership is about—not just gloating when things are going right but being there to help at times of heavy demand like this.”
“The average before the energy surge was around £1 million a month. These are acceptable business variances—a hedging strategy—yet in autumn last year, the price surged to £3.6 million a month. At that point, the industry asked for help from the Government and met the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. No support was given and there was no response. In December, the price surged to £5.4 million. The industry again asked for support. Once again, there was no support and no response. This is about not just Pilkington, but heavy industry. As if the prices were not bad enough, Pilkington’s energy bills have now hit £8.2 million a month from an average of £600,000 a month. That is more than eight times higher than what it is used to paying.”
“St Helens has been at the heart of the global glass industry for over 200 years and is, in fact, known as the world leader in glass. Glass is part of the past, present and future of our town. In fact, that security glass up there in the Chamber was produced in St Helens and erected by men—as it was at the time—from St Helens. Pilkington glass, or Pilks to us locals, is a business that is part of our furniture. Pilks is a business that is close to my heart, as I spent a lot of years working there. Energy bills for Pilks and other energy-intensive businesses have skyrocketed. There are numbers and variances that the business can cope with—the Minister referred to that as a hedging strategy. In April 2020, during the first lockdown, Pilks’ energy bills were £540,000 a month—just over half a million pounds.”
“In St Helens, 99% of care home staff are vaccinated, and at Whiston Hospital, the best one in the country, 91% have had the first vaccine, 89% the second vaccine and 64% the booster. That has all been done with persuasion, not with the threat of the sack. These people are in a vocation. It is not just a job to them; they believe in the patients. We must not get to the stage where we are threatening people. The GPs have even been involved in persuading the care home staff. Everyone has been involved for some considerable time and that is the way to do it—”
“I apologise. I know my hon. Friend knows about care and health workers so she knows how dedicated they are; they have a vocation. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government can and should stop going too far? Let us not break the trust between patient and worker and between Government. Let us go down the route, which has been proven to work, of persuasion and education, and ask them and work with them to distil the fear.”
“The Minister claimed that a revised code of practice covered this, but a code of practice is not law. Surely the sanctity and dignity of the human body demand the power of legislation. I call on the House and this Government to step up and do their part to stop this crime against humanity.”
“Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris) for raising these new clauses in Committee. The Minister sympathised, but expressed certain concerns. He was worried that countries could have a deemed consent system in which everyone was automatically a donor. Deemed consent is acceptable only if people can opt out. Under a new provision, the Secretary of State will assess the deemed consent of each country. The Minister was also concerned that the recipient of an organ could face criminal consequences. It is the duty of a Government to ensure that people are aware of what is a crime, and supporting or funding a crime against humanity must be illegal. New clause 25 would make imported cadavers require the same consent as bodies sourced from within the UK.”
“Evidence was heard at the China and Uyghur tribunals that mass DNA testing is taking place in the internment camps in Xinjiang, enough to compile a Uyghur organ database and bank ready for withdrawals on demand. The world might believe that China had an ethnical organ donation system based on the World Health Organisation’s assessment, yet that assessment from the WHO is based on a country’s self-assessment—in this case by the Chinese Communist party. It is a barbaric practice, and every democracy in the world should be looking at what it can do to stop it. I am grateful to Members from every party across this House for supporting my new clause. It will not stop the trade, but it will show that we in Britain are doing our part and helping to influence other countries to do the same. I thank my hon.”
“Forced organ harvesting in China is one of the worst crimes against humanity of the 21st century. That is why I wish to speak to new clauses 24 and 25 in my name. It is a crime that no British citizens should be taking part in, and a crime that humanity has a duty to stop. New clause 24 aims to put a dent in the forced organ harvesting trade. It would prohibit UK citizens from receiving a transplant abroad without the clear consent of the donor. The forced organ trade is a big money business. The organs of a young healthy adult are worth in the region of half to three quarters of a million US dollars. That is money that people would, and do, kill for. China started with political prisoners, with the religious Falun Gong group being the main source. Now it has moved on to Uyghur Muslims, some Christians and other minority groups.”
“It is estimated that, currently, at least 30% of 16 to 18-year-old students have chosen to study a BTEC. This Bill will eventually take that choice away. If the Government are as committed to levelling up as they constantly claim, then why are they looking to scrap one of the best tools to achieve this? BTECs have been the engine of social mobility. Some 44% of white working-class students who enter university studied at least one BTEC, and 37% of black students enter university with only BTEC qualifications. There is no levelling-up agenda if the Government scrap the BTEC lifeline.”
“To borrow a phrase, “The best way to level up our country is through education”. Education, coupled with opportunity, is how we give our nation’s children the best chance in life. Each young person is different. Under the current system, students can decide whether studying A-levels, T-levels or a BTEC is best for them. Yet, under the Bill, the Government plan to scrap BTECs. That is what is behind this: cut the funding and scrap the opportunity. BTECs have been a lifeline to many young people in my constituency. Indeed, when I was a governor for many, many years—40 years, in fact—it was a joy to see the number of young people who carried on in education when BTECs were introduced. I am sure that the same is true in many other Members’ constituencies.”
“Member for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt) seems to be sniggering on the Back Benches, but there is nothing to snigger about. I see young people achieving opportunities now when they did not in the past before BTECs. We cannot treat all young people the same; they are not all the same. For some young people, A-levels are best. For others, T-levels are the way to go. Many also find that BTECs are the route for them. We must protect all three routes. After all, our education system should be there to help young people excel in a way that suits them best. The Government should not be attempting to force them down a path that is not right for them. This is all about ending an opportunity for young people whom the Government do not value as much. There is no chance of levelling up with the Government at present.”
“The Government are taking the funding away, and it is that that will stop young people getting these qualifications. People need to wake up to what is happening. The Government are taking the funding away. They are not cutting the opportunity straight off—it will just drift away. Young people will not go forward to T-levels. They will drop off and leave at 16. They will not go into further education. That is what will happen and that is what is intended. T-levels are a welcome introduction, but they are not the same as BTECs. I have been implored by Carmel College in my constituency, one of the finest colleges in the country, to stress the following point: scrapping BTECs will lead to more young people dropping out of education altogether. The hon.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this important debate to the Chamber today. Does he agree that it is a heavy, damaging and frightening environment for the public out there when they are being threatened and intimidated by unscrupulous bosses telling them not to go to their trade unions? They are being picked out individually and forced down that route because they are afraid of not being employed if they go to their trade union for support.”
“What material factors would be considered appropriate to reconsider this situation? What would be necessary to re-examine or develop this further? Are the Government waiting for incidents to happen? Risk is supposed to be based on hazards and the likelihood of them materialising. Risk assessments are supposed to avoid materialisation, but that is not how the Bill is drafted.”
“It is a pleasure, Mr Dowd, to serve under your chairmanship. The certificate is a piece of paper that is on display but what will ensure that there is compliance with the policies, procedures and arrangements that lie behind the provision of the certificate?”
“The Committee has talked about the culture in the building industry and how there has been a lack of trust. At its core the Bill is about changing that culture and bringing about safety. The issue is in training people, ensuring that they keep that training up, quantity and compliance. We must ensure that the procedures on which people are trained are adhered to consistently. That must be part of the arrangements. We should be really concerned about that—I am not saying that we are not—and ensure that that happens. The culture of the people working in the industry is vital.”
“Is the certificate transferrable within an organisation to individuals? Would the Health and Safety Executive have some responsibility to ensure that if a new manager came along in the future, or a new accountable person, they would be up to the skills required to qualify for the original certificate?”
“The Bill is already setting criteria for the building safety case report, inasmuch as it refers to 18 metres or seven storeys. Beneath that, a building does not comply, so how or where do we get the building safety manager’s freedom to do a personal risk assessment of a building that is below seven storeys or 18 metres? Can the Minister quantify or qualify how they are going to be able to do their job, or is this one of the “developments” that we are looking for to change the criteria, to bring buildings below that measurement in?”
“However, the ABI has made a number of significant comments about using modern methods of construction “to ensure these buildings are built and maintained in a way which enables them to access affordable insurance for the lifetime of the property.” It has also called on the Government to develop “a publicly accessible database of buildings developed using Modern Methods of Construction which provides information on the materials used, methods of construction and relevant standards or certification” and to mandate “the installation of high integrity fire alarms in all new developments to address the high number”—”
“Sadly, the construction industry does not enjoy a lot of confidence, which is no surprise, mainly because of the fires we have had. Professional indemnity is very difficult to get; far more questions are being asked to obtain it. The Association of British Insurers has been very involved with the Government and is broadly very supportive of the Bill—it is the right step and will improve the building industry and commercial and residential premises.”
“I do not consider that the Bill will address all the insurance problems. I am concerned that we may end up in a situation where we do not get the buildings done, because of the insurance problem. I do not believe that we can do everything in the timescale to enable the construction of the homes that we need—”
“I should not apologise, because I need to make a point. There is too much dependence on secondary legislation, and we do not have sight of it. When will it be introduced? I like to make informed decisions, but I am not able to when there is this constant reference to future regulations and secondary legislation. When I get to read about the regulations, it says that they are subject to or delegated to statutory instruments, so I am going from the Bill to secondary legislation and then to statutory instruments. Will they be affirmative or negative? I do not feel in a position where I am able to make an informed decision.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Could he explain how we will prevent these charges being passed onto leaseholders? Is there anywhere in the Bill we can tie it down?”
“The report concluded that, for such an arrangement to work as intended, the public sector should regulate private third-party professionals and firms and reported that in 76% of economies that make use of third-party inspectors, regulations explicitly require the independence of third-party inspectors; they should have no financial interests in the project and should not be related to the investor or builder. The report concluded that private sector participation should be accompanied by appropriate safeguards that favour the public interest over private profits.” That is the nub of this. The evidence goes on: “We believe that the change to remove the ability for clients to choose their own regulator, is necessary to apply to the whole of the built environment.” And that point was made by the World Bank.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. The National Fire Chiefs Council talked about the need for building control independence. We know that things have gone wrong in the past and that there is scope for that to happen in the future with the private sector being involved, as highlighted in Dame Judith Hackitt’s report. In its written evidence, the NFCC wrote: “While there is ample evidence that private sector participation in building control can bring efficiencies, if not implemented correctly such a delegation of regulatory mandate can come with significant unintended consequences.” I do not believe it is intended to have those consequences but that is what has been said. It continued: “A 2018 report by the World Bank found private sector participation in construction regulation in 93 out of 190 economies.”
“As Sarah said, the key thing for me—we have seen this with other workplace health and safety requirements—is that, although the building safety manager will have an important role on a day-to-day basis in effecting the safety, engaging with residents and so on, the accountability for the accountable person who is ultimately responsible for that building is not inadvertently delegated to the building safety manager, so that the BSM effectively takes on the ownership of the risk. That should be firmly with the accountable person, because they are the individual or the company that has the resources and the capability to really manage the risk. Graham Russell: This is not an area for me.”
“It is therefore important that the responsibility for driving improvements, and for ensuring that people have the right kind of competence and do the right thing, rests squarely with industry, as well as the ownership of safety within individual buildings resting squarely with the owners of the buildings who are responsible for safety within them. They are the only people on the ground who can, day in, day out, ensure that things are being managed properly and that people are competent and are appropriately fulfilling their duties and obligations under the law. Peter Baker: I would add that it will be set out in the legislation that a building safety manager is required.”
“Q Good morning to each of you. The Government have chosen not to legislate for a register of competent building safety managers, and said that any register should be industry-led. Are the Government right to leave it to industry? Sarah Albon: I think there is always a balance between what industry needs to do and what the overarching regulatory regime seeks to do. From my perspective, it is important, in addressing the cultural issues, that we recognise that, ultimately, it is not the regulator or Government who will lead to a sea change in behaviour, but industry.”
“You would never be able to set a series of requirements to cover every aspect of a job, so a framework is an important first step, but it also provides flexibility for duty holders to have a whole range of other roles associated with that building safety function.”
“Q The Government have not yet published the competency framework for the BSM. How important is the framework for recruiting and training people for the role? Peter Baker: Having a competency framework is really quite important for a lot of the safety-critical roles in the regime, for a number of reasons. One is to make sure that there is a consistent level of competence, performance and behaviour among the individuals who undertake a lot of those important roles. That is not just the building safety manager but the client representative, the contractors and everyone involved in the lifecycle of a building. A framework is key to ensure that the important things are part of a person’s training and induction.”
“If organisations are managing the risks in their buildings well through their existing arrangements, it could be quite an easy transition to the building safety manager role. I would stress, as I said, that it is key for the BSM not to be seen as the duty holder and to own the risk—that should firmly be with the accountable person to ensure the buildings are safe.”
“Certainly, in the engagement that Peter and other colleagues from the HSE and the Department have had with the industry, we have encouraged and pushed them to get on with it and start ensuring that they have the right degree of skills available to them, and they are thinking now about who they need to train and how they need to support their staff with a view to the Bill coming in. Peter Baker: One thing I would add is that a lot of organisations in the social and the private sectors already have individuals and companies that help them support the management of their buildings. I do not necessarily see the BSM role as something very new and necessarily too daunting. It can be part of a transition from what currently happens.”
“Having said that, there has been a lot of notice that the new functions are coming, and there has been a lot of focus already in the industry on the need to improve the overall safety of buildings and the regime. There is no reason why owners of buildings and senior people working in the industry need to wait for the Bill to be finished before they start driving up the skills and competence of the people working for them. Fundamentally, this piece of legislation will put in a new framework that requires people to meet certain standards, but they can be working on that already.”
“Q The success of the regime will depend largely on there being enough competent individuals to fill the role of the BSM, which in essence is an entirely a new profession, as we know. From the Healthy and Safety Executive perspective, do you foresee any problems with the necessary upskilling and training? Sarah Albon: There are a number of new roles, as well as a requirement for increased competency and a range of other existing roles, that thread right the way through the Bill. It is inevitable that there will be a significant focus on the need to get new people to join various professions and to have training and experience available to people. It would be unrealistic to suggest that it will be without problem in terms of training and getting new people.”
“Graham Russell: I think your point about culture goes right across the sector. What we have seen in evidence given to the public inquiry on Grenfell Tower and in other contexts reveals that a cultural shift is required. The points that colleagues have made about responsibility having to sit with the industry applies as much to the industry of creating the construction products as it does to the building industry—it is one system and one sector. It is clear to me that we must address those cultural issues. Regulation is important as it provides a framework and a set of expectations, but it is behaviours that have to change. In that sense, what we are embarking on through the Bill, and the work that we are doing with our colleagues, is addressing that culture.”
“Q You do not think there would be any problem tackling the cultures that have existed up to now. Cultural problems on building sites have been one of the main problems. Peter Baker: Absolutely. Dame Judith recognised the need for cultural shift, particularly in the design, build and refurbishment of new builds. There are a number of provisions in the Bill around the gateways and the design and build, and there is a strong emphasis on improving competence right across the built environment. It is important to remember that the Building Safety Regulator will not just regulate high-rise buildings but will have other functions of stimulating and encouraging competence right across the built environment, which is one element of improving the culture of the construction industry and the landlord and housing provider industry.”
“I think that is probably quite a neat place for the building safety charge to become a specific sub-item within the overall service charge budget. Then, you are not really giving residents extra information—they are not understanding what the extra charge is really for—and it also helps to mask any chasm that might be in place between life-cycle maintenance and building safety maintenance, and where there is a crossover. It can become a bit ambiguous. So long as the regime is clear, understood and, frankly, does not increase the financial burden on people living in their own homes, that is where the focus should be.”
“Q I have listened to your comments, but are the Government right to introduce the building safety charge on residents, by which building owners can recover the cost of building safety measures? If not, could that be done through the existing service charge instead? Richard Silva: It is a very good point. We engage with a lot of the managing agents who manage our blocks on a day-to-day basis and I think that there needs to be clarity on this point in the Bill. A separate regime for levying a charge to residents living in a block comes with cost and complexity; people need to understand what it is for. It is a difficult one. There is service charge legislation in existence. There is a regime for it, with all of the reasonableness tests, information, budgeting, finalising of accounts and so on.”
“Once all of the stock is where it should be, with a full suite of goals and a set of further information, with a clear and unambiguous accountable person and a building safety manager appointed—let us assume that it will take 10 or 15 years to get all of that infrastructure in place for existing stock—I think that the regulator’s role will cover all stock, whether existing or new build. But the transition period is really important—there is not enough clarity in the Bill, frankly.”
“Q The Government say that the purpose of the BSC is to cover the ongoing costs of the new regime, not historical costs. Is that explicit in the Bill as drafted, or could the Bill commit building owners to recover historical costs through the BSC? Richard Silva: The way that I read the Bill, the historical costs are, to be frank, left firmly at the door of the leaseholders, so it does not protect them at all. Again, this goes back to my first answer to Daisy Cooper: there are probably more equitable ways of trying to get the existing stock up to scratch.”
“Q Does the Bill provide adequate means of redress for residents who want to challenge elements of the building safety charge? Richard Silva: There is lack of detail at this stage. Clearly, the service charge legislation gives residents that means of redress and the ability to query and question stuff. If that is replicated in the building safety charge regime, wherever that sits ultimately, whether in this Bill or other existing legislation, hopefully that will be fit for purpose.”
“Q A burning question: does the Bill protect leaseholders from unaffordable costs? Richard Silva: For existing leaseholders, no, it does not.”
“I do not know whether Mr Walker would like to comment on any of those questions. Kieran Walker: It is not an area for the HBF. I will not comment further.”
“It is difficult to prepare without the information, so I am less concerned about the mechanism; I am just concerned that we need to see the rules.”
“Obviously, we are very keen to see the safety measures implemented as soon as possible, but there needs to be a prioritisation of high-risk buildings in the meantime. That goes back to a holistic assessment of those buildings. We think that we need a transition period of about five years, and we need that clarity as soon as possible. Andrew Bulmer: I am relatively unexercised about whether it is done through enabling legislation or written in from day one; what I am exercised about is getting the regulations delivered quickly. We are trying to prepare for the future regime. Dame Judith Hackitt called for a culture change and we, as an organisation, are driving that hard into our membership. They are receptive, and wish to adapt and move to the new regime as quickly as they can.”
“Q The draft Bill is largely a framework Bill, sometimes referred to as an enabling Bill, which provides for key parts of the new regulatory regime to be established by delegated legislation and building regulations. Do you find that acceptable? Is enough tied down to get the secondary legislation done quickly enough? There is no timescale—just what is “reasonable”. Is that acceptable, or do you have any concerns? Councillor McCoy: We have some concerns. You are right that timeliness is key. It reflects the points that I made earlier about having time for industry to gear up. There needs to be a proper, informed transition period. That is London Councils’ view. There needs to be a transition period that allows time for the capacity to be built. It needs to be fully funded, and there needs to be prioritisation within it.”
“The Bill reinforces that because, again, we have a new homes ombudsman. For two years, we are not proposing to change in any way the idea that somebody builds a building, keeps quiet for two years that they have problems with it, and then says, “I’m sorry, Mr Customer, you are not protected by the normal Consumer Protection Act rules because this is a property, not a toaster.””
“Q On a similar line to my colleague on the right, will the Bill deliver what we are looking for in the future? We are talking about a Bill for the future and not historically. Does it handle the design of buildings? Does it adequately answer the questions about construction, materials and insurance? Will it prevent future incidents such as Grenfell? Martin Boyd: No. Judith Hackitt said the problem is that we need a fundamental culture change in the industry, but I have to defend the industry. If you are providing into a market that says, “You have liability for a product for two years. After that two years, the liability moves over to a warranty scheme for another eight years, and then after that you walk away scot-free,” how does that encourage developers to produce high-quality products?”
“If you buy a leasehold flat that is new, it is never surveyed. You do not have a survey of that building. In other countries that have a commonhold system, part of the conditions of the initial purchase is that a completely independent survey is carried out that validates that the building has been created to a reasonable standard. We are proposing part of that within the Building Safety Regulator, but there does not seem to be a final sign-off that says, “Here you are, Mr Customer. We have checked the building for you as the customer.” That would make things an awful lot easier than creating yet another ombudsman, who in reality will do like most other ombudsmen do, which is reach some small decisions but find it very difficult to reach big decisions.”