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UK PARLIAMENT · SITTING

Sir Keir Starmer

MP for Holborn and St Pancras · Labour · United Kingdom

IN THEIR OWN WORDS

That meeting with President Zelensky happened the day after he was evicted from the Oval Office. He left alone. He got on a plane. We got him to come to London, and I asked him to come to Downing Street straightaway. I walked out to meet him. I gave him a hug, and then I showed him what was in the street.

ENGAGEMENTS · 2026-07-15 · READ IN HANSARD

You have been instrumental in defending the safety of every Member of this House, Mr Speaker. I believe we must do more to defend our democracy, and have tasked officials across Government with identifying the best mechanisms for taking this work forward so that it can move as quickly as possible.

ENGAGEMENTS · 2026-07-15 · READ IN HANSARD

Well, Reform intends to spend the summer arguing with a bin. My advice to everyone is: put your vote in the Bin! [ Laughter. ] I am delighted that today we are joined in the Gallery by some of the people I have met across the country in opposition and in power.

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She knows that this is robust, and it has to be robust—that is the way politics is done—but the kindnesses that sit behind it privately are often just as powerful, if not more powerful, and I thank her for that. I also stood at the Opposition Dispatch Box, for four years as Leader of the Opposition.

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I join the right hon. Lady in her tribute to Ann Widdecombe. I know that the hurt is keenly felt across all her friends and family, but it is particularly keenly felt by political colleagues in the Conservative party—her party for many years—and in Reform as well.

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I thank my hon. Friend for her question, her support and her friendship for me, Vic and the kids. Whatever the challenge, she has always been there for us, particularly Vic and the kids, and I really thank her for that. This will be my last answer from this Dispatch Box.

ENGAGEMENTS · 2026-07-15 · READ IN HANSARD

The complete record

Every one of 2,995 lines we hold for Sir Keir Starmer, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 37 of 60.

  1. We have been a leading advocate of Ukraine having a role in the JEF. Ukraine already has an enhanced partnership with the JEF—the first of its kind. That was done the last JEF meeting that we had in Norway a few months ago, where we were one of the leading nations pushing for that greater involvement. We will see over time whether that partnership can be taken further, either with the JEF or NATO, but it was an important first step—not only a reflection for Ukraine but also a message to Russia.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  2. I thank the right hon. Member for his questions; they are all good ones, so I will endeavour to answer each part of them. Sanctions are being discussed intensely, as he will understand, and there are two elements. The first is the immediate application of sanctions in relation to Russia. We are attempting to ensure that we all act together—the US, the UK and the EU. That is the focus of our discussions and what we are urging on the US. The right hon. Member will know that there is a piece of legislation in the US that is ready to go; that needs to be co-ordinated with what we are doing. In the longer term, we need to look always at whether there is more we can do within the framework on sanctions, and we can discuss that in this House. The right hon. Member raises an important point about Ukraine and the JEF.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  3. I am happy to remind the House that we had 2.5% of GDP on defence spending under the last Labour Government, and we will have it under this Labour Government. In 14 long years, the Conservatives did not do that.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  4. The right hon. Lady must have missed the record investment in our country in the last 12 months of £120 billion, the four interest rate cuts, and the fastest growth in the G7 in the first quarter of this year. Every time we have increased defence spending, as we did with the 2.5%, we have at the same time set out where the money is coming from.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  5. There are two or three principles here. First, we need to see the increase to our defence spend reflected in good, well-paid jobs in constituencies across the country. Secondly, the big sectors in defence will obviously benefit, but we have also put together a hub for smaller supply chain businesses—which, whether defence-specific or not, are in pretty well every constituency —to ensure that they take advantage of the contracts and extra spending on defence. In that way, we can ensure that there is a dividend back in the United Kingdom from the extra spend we are putting in place.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  6. We made the commitment to that capability, and we are now talking to allies about precisely what the timetable will be; I will update the House. The important thing is that the commitment is there. It is a commitment to the NATO initiative, and it brings us within that initiative. Therefore, there are a lot of moving parts, but we have made a very firm commitment, and I will set out the timeline and progress on that in due course.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  7. Yes. I have long been a supporter of the BBC World Service. My hon. Friend’s question chimes with other questions about the soft power of this country. We have incredible soft power and incredible strength in our diplomacy, and that very often achieves results in a way that then makes it less necessary to use the hard power.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  8. I think the hon. Member is in discussion with Ministers about this, and we look forward to taking that forward. In relation to the scepticism of his Huntingdon constituents, I reassure them that this increased defence spend will bring yield to Huntingdon in the defence-specific sectors and in the supply chains.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  9. We have an absolute commitment to international humanitarian law, and it is extremely important that we keep to that, whether in Gaza or Sudan. It is the framework through which we make our decisions.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  10. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we keep proscription under constant review and will not hesitate to take the most effective measures against the Iranian regime. He will know that we have already sanctioned the IRGC in its entirety, including individual commanders, but we do keep the matter under constant review.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  11. There is a debate going on across allies as to how we can work together on the increased spending: on the spend itself; on the financial arrangements, be that development banks or others arrangements; and on ensuring that we co-ordinate our capability, because the last thing we want is everybody spending more money in an unco-ordinated way. There has been intense discussion about that.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  12. Beat them. This is not just the usual politics; it is a serious question of national security. The at-sea nuclear deterrent is housed in Scotland, and just a few months ago I went and saw one of the subs coming back in. It was a very humbling experience, quite frankly, and I got an even deeper sense of what they do for our country. It should be supported in its own right and as an essential deterrent. That matter is among the reasons that we need a change of Government in Scotland.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  13. I agree. All I can say is that, in fairness, I see on the faces of some Conservative Members disquiet at the approach that the Leader of the Opposition took. That is not surprising.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  14. The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the issue. Obviously, we carefully review and monitor any Chinese involvement in any elements of security. But it is right that we now include resilience in our overall definition of national spend, and act accordingly.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  15. Yes, I can. My hon. Friend is right to raise the issue and describe it as she did. We are a leader on this and continue to be. We want to get our aid budget back up, but in the meantime I want to work with other countries to find other ways of financing that support as a matter of some urgency.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  16. When we went to 2.5%, we set out in clear terms both the date and the way we would pay for it. That is the way we do business on the Government side of the House. For 14 years, the Conservative party lost control of the economy, left our armed forces hollowed out and left a £22 billion black hole. Frankly, they are in no position to lecture anyone about these issues—still less after the response of the Leader of the Opposition, which shows exactly why the party is sliding into irrelevance.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  17. My hon. Friend should not worry too much about the Leader of the Opposition representing our country—she never will. If she did, presumably the chair at the NATO summit would have a little sticky note on it saying, “Busy at PMQs”. That is how unserious her point is. On the substantive question of jobs in Scotland, there is now the real potential to build on what Scotland does. It has a proud history in relation to our defence and security. This provides an opportunity to build on that platform.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  18. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have that discussion with our US allies, both at leader level and between our teams, on an ongoing and constant basis. Israel has the right to be safe and secure, and it is neither safe nor secure at the moment. We have to be absolutely clear about that and about the right of Israel to defend itself. That means discussions about the IRGC and Iran, which has been a constant source of threat, terror and conflict in the region. Yes, we discussed not just the attack on Saturday, but the further measures that can be taken to ensure that Iran never has the capability to develop nuclear weapons.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  19. They should do that, and we are urging that they do. The current arrangements are intolerable and are never going to work; we need to be really clear about that. We will continue to urge that, with our allies and talking to leaders across the region, as my hon. Friend would expect. But now is also the time to push on for the broader ceasefire, to alleviate the situation more generally and allow a path to open for the long-term conflict resolution that is needed.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  20. I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. I have visited Blackpool many times, as he knows. I know first hand just how important it is for those young people to see money going into their economy, with jobs in Blackpool for them. I profoundly remember asking a group of 17-year-olds, I think, at a sixth-form college in Blackpool how many were proud to be from Blackpool. They all put their hands up. When I asked them how many thought that their future jobs would be in Blackpool, only one put their hand up; the rest all thought they would have to leave Blackpool to get the jobs they wanted. We need to turn that around. This gives us an opportunity to start doing that.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  21. Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) (No. 2) Bill Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 56), That the Bill be now read a Second time. Question agreed to. Bill accordingly read a Second time. Question put forthwith, That the Bill be now read the Third time. Question agreed to. Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  22. My most recent visit to the primary school was to roll out our free school meals policy. I was happy to do that by serving school meals myself—if all else fails, I’ve got a back-up. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. At a time like this, the House usually comes together and speaks with one voice, and we are the more powerful for it. President Zelensky has told me on a number of occasions how much that means for his people. In fairness to the Conservative party, it has always been resolute on Ukraine. The Leader of the Opposition needs to look again at her approach. At a time like this, the sooner we get back to the kind of cross-party unity that we had, the better. Our adversaries know that when they see unity here, that is much more of a problem for them than when they see unserious division.

    G7 AND NATO SUMMITS · 2025-06-26 · READ IN HANSARD

  23. We have done that to uphold human rights and defend the prospect of a two-state solution. We will continue to support all efforts to secure a ceasefire, the release of all hostages—despicably held by Hamas—and the humanitarian aid that needs to surge in. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  24. Mr Speaker, may I first wish you a happy birthday for yesterday, and say that we are all delighted that Sir Billy Boston—a great British sporting icon—has received his richly deserved knighthood? It is long overdue, if I may say so, for him but also for rugby league. This is Carers Week, and I know that the whole House will join me in celebrating the selfless dedication of our unpaid and young carers. This weekend also marks the eighth anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire. We will honour the 72 men, women and children who lost their lives by delivering meaningful and lasting change—a country with safe and secure homes for everyone, where justice is done for the Grenfell community. Acting alongside our allies, we have sanctioned individuals responsible for inciting appalling settler violence and expansion.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  25. I thank the hon. Lady for raising this horrific case and the other, similar cases. My thoughts—and, I am sure, the thoughts of the whole House—are with Michael’s family and all those affected by such vile crimes. I think we all need to listen to what they have to say. I know that she has been working with my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer (Mr Charters) on this issue, and I pay tribute to her and to all those who are working so hard on the issue. I am sure that the Justice Minister will be in touch at the first opportunity to take this forward. I thank the hon. Lady again for raising a really important issue.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  26. My hon. Friend has great expertise, having worked for many years in the NHS as a GP, and I support the work he is doing. As he has pointed out, our plan for change has cut waiting lists in his local trust by almost 5,000, and we are going further, including through state-of-the-art radiotherapy machines rolled out across the country. There is one going into my hon. Friend’s constituency, and more scanners are going to 27 other hospital trusts, including two hospitals in the constituency of the Leader of the Opposition. This is all made possible by the decisions we have made, and I know that the Leader of the Opposition will want to stand up and welcome that.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  27. Since the general election, 500,000 more people are in work. I know that the right hon. Lady does not mention that—she is fixated on talking Britain down. We are investing in the future. Even in the last two weeks, we have had the strategic defence review, with 30,000 new jobs building submarines. Yesterday we had the Sizewell announcement, which will create 10,000 new jobs, and there will be tens of thousands of construction jobs building the social and affordable housing that was announced this morning. That is the difference that Labour makes in government.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  28. The right hon. Lady has obviously missed the interest rate cuts, the growth figures for earlier this year, the strategic defence review, £15 billion going into local transport, free school meals, Sizewell and social housing. She stands at the Dispatch Box to lecture us, and I see that Liz Truss is obviously back in vogue, advising Reform officially now and haunting the Tories. I remind the Leader of the Opposition that the shadow Home Secretary, who I think was then Chief Secretary to the Treasury, gave the Liz Truss Budget 9.5 out of 10. The Leader of the Opposition said that what was wrong with Liz Truss’s Budget was not necessarily the package—that was all right—but the way it was sold. The Tories have learned absolutely nothing.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  29. At the weekend, the right hon. Lady said that she would be getting better in the role. She could start by apologising for the Liz Truss Budget; that would be better.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  30. The Conservatives left a £22 billion black hole that we had to fill, and that is why we took the right decisions. We have stabilised the economy, which is why we have seen four interest rate cuts. We have committed to the triple lock, which the Opposition say is unsustainable—that is £470 for most pensioners—and we have had good quarter 1 growth. Three weeks ago, I said that I wanted more pensioners to be eligible for the winter fuel payment. I am really pleased that we set out the threshold and the certainty that is needed. The right hon. Lady says that I do not want to talk about our record, but what about three trade deals, record investment, free school meals, breakfast clubs, social and affordable housing, the defence review, Sizewell—we could go on all morning, but the Chancellor will say even more in a minute.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  31. I think the right hon. Lady let slip on the Matt Forde programme the other day that she rehearses her fury for PMQs, so there was a very good rehearsal this morning, I think. She asks what we are doing. At the Budget, we put record investment in our NHS and our public services. She comes every week to carp on about national insurance, but she does not stand there with the courage of her convictions and say that she will actually reverse it. The reason she will not is because she will not stand up and say she is against the investment in the NHS. She will not stand up and say she is against the investment in our public services. We will all listen very carefully in just 20 minutes, when the Chancellor lays out more record investment, as to whether the Conservatives welcome it or whether they say they would not support it.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  32. Diego Garcia is a vital intelligence and strategic capability, and it is absolutely clear that legal uncertainty would compromise it in very short order—that is why the Conservatives started the negotiations in relation to it—and no responsible Prime Minister would let that happen. We have secured the base for the long term. That has been welcomed by our allies—by the US, by NATO, and by Australia, New Zealand and India. It has been opposed by our adversaries—by Russia, China and Iran. In the second column, we add Reform following Putin, and the Tories following Reform.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  33. It is very important that we make the changes to our welfare system. It is not working, and it needs reform. I think everyone agrees with that. It does not work for anyone. We will do this on a principled basis, namely that those who can work should work, that those who want to work should be supported so that they can do so, and that we must protect those with the most severe disabilities who will never be able to work—and we are doing that by ending reassessments and paying a new premium.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  34. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the health crisis created by the previous Government cannot be— [Interruption.] Opposition Members groan, but that is exactly how the country feels about the last 14 years and the mess that they made of everything. Yes, we do need to fix social care as well as putting money into the NHS. We are putting record amounts into the NHS, which is the right thing to do, and we are seeing the results. We promised 2 million extra appointments in the first year of a Labour Government, and we have delivered 3 million. So there will be that extra funding, but let me gently say to the right hon. Gentleman that while he welcomes all the extra funding, he cannot at the same time simply say that he is against any way of raising the money for the funding. There is an incompatibility there.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  35. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that is an issue that is being considered, but it is complicated and there are a great many countervailing factors that need to be carefully balanced in any decision. We are talking to allies about it, but I do not want to pretend to the House that there is an easy answer on this, because there is not.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  36. I thank my hon. Friend for raising this. I believe this Government must seize the opportunities of net zero for working people, creating good, skilled jobs and taking them off the rollercoaster of volatile fossil-fuel markets. Under past Governments, hard-working communities had their pride and their jobs ripped away, and we will never do that in relation to a transition. We have already seen £40 billion of investment in energy and renewables, and the CBI data shows that 38,000 jobs in Wales are linked to clean energy. I want to see more of that; both the Conservatives and Reform are against it.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  37. It is important that we have a legal duty of candour and we will be introducing that, because, as she says, there must be the truth here, based on all people being dealt with on the basis of dignity, fairness and accountability.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  38. May I start with the important point that the hon. Lady makes about Ballymena? I utterly condemn the violence that we saw overnight in Ballymena and other parts of Northern Ireland, including against PSNI officers. It is absolutely vital that the PSNI is given the time it needs to investigate the incidents concerned, rather than face mindless attacks as it seeks to bring peace and order to keep people safe. The Northern Ireland Secretary is in touch with the PSNI and the Executive, and I am being kept updated in relation to that. In relation to the tragic cases that the hon. Lady mentions, I thank her for raising them.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  39. My hon. Friend will have seen the statement we made yesterday and the actions that we are taking with allies. The humanitarian situation is dreadful and distressing, and the scenes that we have witnessed outside aid distribution centres are frankly heartbreaking. More aid into Gaza is needed at volume and speed, and Israel’s plan for aid delivery is inadequate and insufficient. What is needed is for the UN and other agencies to deliver that aid according to well-established mechanisms, and Israel must allow this. We are working with allies to do all that we can to make this happen, as well as to get the hostages out—they have been held for a very long time—and a desperately needed return to a ceasefire.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  40. I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising this important case of Spirit AeroSystems in Northern Ireland. I know how important it is for the workforce; I have visited them myself on more than one occasion. Airbus’s decision to expand UK operations is good news for the sector and testament to world-class manufacturing expertise, and I want to see those high-skilled jobs protected. The Northern Ireland Secretary has met Airbus, the trade unions and Assembly representatives to discuss the best outcome. The Minister for Industry is continuing engagement with stakeholders, and we will do everything we can in relation to this situation. I am grateful to him for raising it.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  41. I know my hon. Friend has been fighting hard for this project for years, and she is right that the previous Government failed to deliver. You could say that about anything they touched, Mr Speaker. The Rail Minister is working with the Mayor and the Housing Minister to get an appropriate solution to unlock housing in the area. We will also bring c2c back into public ownership, improving reliability and performance, and ensuring every penny is focused on better services.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  42. I thank the hon. Member for raising this. The epidemic of absence in our schools really does worry me. Thanks to the efforts of schools and parents across the country, we have seen over 3 million more days in school this year compared with last, which is really important, but we do know that pupils with special educational needs face more complex barriers in relation to school attendance. We will of course look at all amendments in the usual way, but in this instance I do think we have struck the right balance.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  43. I join my hon. Friend on his comments about Billy Boston, and I think the whole House will, Mr Speaker. We are turning the tide on the housing crisis, with the biggest investment in social and affordable housing in a generation. The Chancellor is investing £39 billion over the next 10 years—almost double what we saw under the last Government—and it is no wonder the National Housing Federation welcomed this as transformative, saying it offers “real hope” to the thousands who need safe, secure and affordable homes.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  44. I thank the hon. Member for championing this really important issue. My late mother had diabetes, so I know at first hand just what a struggle it can be and how important this is. Type 1 diabetes is not preventable, as she knows, but the sooner we can reach people, the sooner we can care for them. We have a screening programme in the UK available to families across the country, and over 20,000 children have already taken part. It is really important that we continue to deliver that, but I thank her for continuing to champion this and to raise her voice on this very important issue. [ Official Report , 2 July 2025; Vol. 770, c. 3WC.] (Correction)

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  45. It is important that we take action to protect our children. From July, tough new rules will mean platforms must protect children in the UK from seeing harmful and violent content. We do need to look at what other measures are needed to create safer online experiences for young people and we will not hesitate to take further steps.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  46. I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this really important issue for his constituents. I think it does impact rural areas in particular. We have set out record funding for the NHS. We have our cancer plan, and I can give him that reassurance.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  47. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the role that she and others played in seeing Davy Russell elected. He will be a dedicated champion for his and her constituents. After nearly two decades in power, the SNP got its verdict last Thursday: Scotland wants change. People know that the SNP is completely out of ideas. That is why they want a Labour Government to deliver real change.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-11 · READ IN HANSARD

  48. Today we are investing £15.6 billion in the transport infrastructure of the north and of the midlands. We are decisively turning the page on a failed economic model of low investment, and we are backing the talent and prospects of the whole country. Over the coming weeks we will set out plans for further investment and renewal. Our strategic defence review shows that this Government will never gamble with our national security. Through the biggest sustained funding increase since the cold war, we will transform our defence, strengthen our nation and invest in jobs and industry across the United Kingdom. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-04 · READ IN HANSARD

  49. One of the greatest achievements of the last Labour Government was the 2012 Olympics in London, and we all remember it— [Interruption.] Given that response, can I pay tribute to the extraordinary contribution of Tessa Jowell to those games? I agree that there have been huge economic benefits from hosting major sporting events as well as an important legacy.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-04 · READ IN HANSARD

  50. Well, I am glad to see the right hon. Lady is catching up with what happened two weeks ago. At the Budget, we took the right decision to stabilise the economy because of the £22 billion black hole that the Conservatives left. We took the right decisions and the growth figures are up, interest rates have been cut, and we have free trade deals. So we will look again, as I said two weeks ago, at the eligibility for winter fuel and of course we will set out how we pay for it, but because we have stabilised the economy, we on this side are committed to the triple lock, and that increased pensions by over £400 this April. The Conservatives say the triple lock is unsustainable. I think her position is that she wants to means-test it.

    ENGAGEMENTS · 2025-06-04 · READ IN HANSARD