Alex Davies-Jones
MP for Pontypridd · Labour · United Kingdom
“Hopefully, last week the hon. Lady will have seen the Minister for Women and Equalities, my right hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), outlining the Government’s response to tackling some of the covert filming that is causing such anxiety to women in particular, and to other vulnerable people.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for asking that question, because it is important to recognise the abuse that this is causing. The law alone is not enough, but we are strengthening the criminal law through world-leading packages.”
“I have huge sympathy for anyone who is struggling with this issue, whether that is because they have to travel further owing to the nature of the case, or for religious reasons. This issue is deeply concerning. My right hon. Friend will know that coroners are independent judges.”
“I will, of course, look at Harmony’s petition to see what more we can do, and look into the issues that the hon. Lady has raised. I recently met a group of victims and survivors who discussed the impact that technological abuse is having on them.”
“If the hon. Gentleman writes to me with the details of the case, I will of course look into it. Delays of that nature are rare, but they can happen because cases are looked at case by case. I will look into the specifics of that case. To reassure the House, we are aware of the issues with coronial delays.”
“My hon. Friend is right: perpetrators are able to generate and share harmful content at unprecedented speed and scale, and we need to be able to respond quickly. Ofcom does have robust enforcement powers under the Online Safety Act 2023, including the power to impose substantial fines and other sanctions.”
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“There are some natural capacity issues built in, even for lawyers doing that work currently, but those are the organisations—I think one of the earlier witnesses described them as human rights lawyers—where we need to start building up their capacity by making the system as attractive as possible, so that they themselves can recruit and develop the lawyers who can expand this work. We are also already in talks with the Legal Aid Agency about separating out inquest work from the current categories of legal aid, so it is a separate category of legal aid with its own separate supervisor standards and its own separate accreditation process—those sorts of things. Richard, you might want to address the kind of training, development and accreditation issues arising from that. Richard Miller: Indeed, yes.”
“There is a really critical element, however, which was raised earlier today in some of the evidence that I heard, about which types of lawyers are best placed to deliver these services. Despite the challenges that the legal aid scheme has faced, particularly in the last 15 years or so, we are really lucky to have a core of incredibly experienced and expert lawyers who carry out this sort of work. Our advice to the Government would be to start there and then look to expand the capacity of those lawyers. There is an issue around capacity, because inquest work takes such an emotional toll on the lawyers involved. There are elements of vicarious trauma that are involved in these sorts of cases, so it is very difficult for your entire caseload to be inquest work for 100% of your time.”
“There are fundamental weaknesses in the sustainability and in the workforce, especially regarding recruitment and retention, that have been recognised by various recent Government-led reviews. There is lots of evidence there and I am sure that, as a Minister, you are fully aware of some of the challenges you face in trying to plug those. Richard highlighted a really important point about the technical construction of the scheme. We are already in discussions, as is the Law Society, with the Ministry of Justice and the Legal Aid Agency about how we can improve that structure to make the work as sustainable as possible, and as attractive as possible, both to existing providers and new providers.”
“I will start by saying how refreshing it is to come to a session such as this to talk about something positive in relation to the legal aid scheme—a positive expansion—after so many years of giving and submitting evidence to various Committees asking for these sorts of measures to be introduced. I give credit to the campaigning groups that have made this happen and to the Government for taking such a progressive step. Richard is absolutely right that we have to see the expansion of legal aid in the context of the current civil legal aid system in particular, but you cannot dissociate that from the criminal legal aid system because there is an overlap between the two in terms of who is delivering the service.”
“For the Government, it provides greater control and greater quality control over the work. For the families—or, more to the point, for the firms representing the families—it means they are able to apply for payments on account in long-running cases, which is crucial to make this an economically viable expansion for firms. You have to get the structure right in the first place. You then have to build up the capacity and you also have to make it attractive enough overall for lawyers who are not currently doing this work to want to come into it. Those are the three aspects that need to be addressed. Chris, do you want to expand on that a bit? Chris Minnoch: Thank you, Richard. Minister, it is a very important question.”
“Q Thank you both for being here this afternoon. The Government recognise that the provisions in the Bill on legal aid provide a significant expansion of legal aid. Can you talk to us about the practicalities of that expansion and say what the system needs to fulfil this commitment in the Bill? Richard Miller: There are three areas that most need to be covered. First, what is the structure within which legal aid is delivered? We believe that the Bill does not go quite far enough here, in that it provides for legal help—the very lowest level of assistance—to families and it provides for advocacy. In most court proceedings, there is a middle level of legal representation that is provided. We think that level has benefits both for the Government and for the families concerned.”
“Delaying implementation on the basis of concerns about capacity might actually undermine some of the other elements of the Bill that are central to making it work and to the creation of the culture change that we have heard victims and bereaved families speak about so eloquently.”
“Chris Minnoch: To add to that, one of the difficulties with delaying implementation is that—this may come out in a later question from the Committee—the lawyers have a very important role to play in supporting bereaved families at inquests, but they also have a very important role in supporting the inquest itself and the coroner. They will probably play an important role in enabling or assisting the coroner to make determinations around the reasonableness and proportionality of public authority representation. You have heard already today about the extraordinary difficulties that unrepresented bereaved families face in accessing the information they need before the inquest proceedings or an inquiry begins, and that is another role the lawyers can play.”
“It is very difficult—it is a bit chicken and egg—because until the work is there, lawyers might not see that now is the time to incur the cost of developing plans to expand into the area. We need to get the legislation in place and be very clear as to when it is coming in, in order for the lawyers to be able to prepare for it. We can never be absolutely certain, but with a combination of what we are starting to do already and building on the experience of the lawyers who are already working in this field, some of whom have said to us that they believe they can expand fairly quickly to mop up at least some of the additional demand, we can probably get to a tolerable position. It is going to involve work over a prolonged period of time to continue to build capacity, but delaying implementation simply does not help us to address the problem.”
“Q You will have heard that there is a sense of impatience to get this legislation implemented as quickly as possible, and that is justified given how long people have waited for this Bill. Speaking as a constituency MP, not just as a Minister, constituents are already asking me when the legislation will come in, because they are involved in ongoing inquests. Given the reality of the current capacity in the system, it is going to take a bit longer to build the capacity to allow us to fulfil the commitment in the Bill. How long is a piece of string? Do you recognise the need to get the capacity right before we can implement this part of the legislation? Richard Miller: That is why we need to be starting those discussions right now, and we are.”
“That is also why I was proud that the Labour manifesto committed to continuing the support for single-sex exemptions available in the Equality Act.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Reigate (Rebecca Paul) on securing this debate. This is an important issue that inspires much emotion from both sides of the debate, and it is vital that we handle it sensitively and with care. Women make up only a very small proportion of those in custody, yet, as the hon. Member said, they often have some more complex needs than men. Some 68% of women in custody have reported experience of domestic abuse, and more than half have suffered abuse as a child. As the Minister responsible for tackling violence against women and girls, I am very aware of these issues. It is for those reasons that I was delighted that the Government created the Women’s Justice Board, which will help to reduce the number of women in prison.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention—it is important to put on record the nuance in this area. It is also important to recognise that levels of violence in prison are untenable and need addressing, whoever is committing that violence. The level of violence in the male estate is incredibly high and needs addressing, and my priority as the Minister for victims and for tackling violence against women and girls is getting on top of all this, because anyone who feels unsafe in prison needs our support. That is exactly what we are trying to ensure.”
“His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service’s approach to allocating transgender women to prison has been through several iterations over the past decade. It balances the risk that transgender prisoners may pose to others if placed in a prison that aligns with their gender identity with the risk posed to and by them if they are placed in a prison that aligns with their biological sex.”
“My hon. Friend, the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, is absolutely right. That is why, as I have outlined, this Government are committed to the work of the Women’s Justice Board, which is looking at how we can get women who should not necessarily be in prison out of prison, particularly mothers. That is not the right place for them. That is exactly what the Women’s Justice Board—led by my hon. Friend in the other place, the Minister for Prisons—is working on with the Lord Chancellor. However, this evening’s debate is complex because, as we have heard, transgender women can have similar vulnerabilities. That does not necessarily mean that they need to be granted access to the space for biological women, but these matters require thought and tact if they are to be resolved in a fair and balanced way.”
“My hon. Friend is right, and I hope to put on record some clarity and facts this evening, rather than just fuelling misinformation. The current policy, which was brought in by the previous Government, is that no transgender woman charged with, or convicted of, either a sexual or a violent offence or who retains birth genitalia can be held in the general women’s estate, unless an exception is granted by a Minister. I would like to state this evening that no such exemptions have been granted under this Government.”
“I will happily clarify it. I was not accusing the hon. Lady of misinformation; I was saying that there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding this issue, and that it is important that I put on record the facts of the case, which is what I am doing. I want to reassert my last point: no exemptions have been granted under this Government. Exemptions that allow transgender women to be housed in the general women’s estate are recommended only when there is a compelling reason, such as a suicide or self-harm risk, or a risk to the prisoner from others, and where a specially trained multidisciplinary panel has carried out a comprehensive risk assessment that concludes that it has a high level of confidence that the prisoner poses a low risk to other prisoners. Again, though, no such exemption has been granted under this Government.”
“I will ensure that the Minister responsible writes to the hon. Lady to inform her of that. In terms of managing the risk posed to biological women, these policies have been a success. There have been zero assaults and zero sexual assaults committed by transgender women in the women’s estate since 2019. To answer her point, there have been zero assaults.”
“The reason it was created, and the function that it serves, links directly to the vulnerabilities of many transgender women. Those held in men’s prisons are disproportionately likely to self-harm, as we have already heard, and they face bullying and harassment. They are also disproportionately likely to be victims of sexual assault. Between 2016 and 2021, transgender women were victims in 3.4% of all sexual assaults reported in men’s prisons, despite never making up more than 0.3% of the population there.”
“It would not be appropriate for me to comment on the devolved competencies of another legislature—this is something for the Scottish Government to determine—but I can outline what will be doing as the Government responsible for England and Wales. More than 95% of transgender women are held in men’s prisons. Of the small number held in women’s prisons, the significant majority are held on E wing at HMP Downview, a women’s prison in the constituency of the hon. Member for Reigate. It is a stand-alone 16-bed unit, where the prisoners are accommodated completely separately from biological women, in a discrete building behind a gated fence. Like the hon. Member, I have visited HMP Downview and E wing. I have spoken to the prisoners and the staff there. E wing was introduced by the previous Government in 2019.”
“For those who are particularly vulnerable, such as those who have undergone full gender affirming surgery, E wing can, where appropriate, provide an important option.”
“I welcome the intervention by the right hon. Gentleman. He always tries to be helpful in debates, and I welcome that. Some of the prisoners held on E wing at HMP Downview have had full gender reassignment surgery. Some have not. However, full risk assessments are carried out before anyone is placed at HMP Downview. As I have stated, no prisoner has been placed there under this Government, and no exemptions have been made under this Government. The allocation criteria rightly set a high bar for transgender women to be held in the general women’s estate. However, failing to meet that high bar does not mean that a transgender prisoner can necessarily be managed safely in a men’s prison.”
“The prison implemented the change on the basis of a stringent local assessment of the risks to prisoners, and no risk concerns have been raised about the regime access of any E wing prisoners since the supervision policy changed. The prison will keep the arrangement under strict review, and we will make an operational decision to revoke that access if it is deemed necessary.”
“I totally agree with that, and I thank my hon. Friend for his work, both inside and outside this House, to help women in incredibly vulnerable positions. He is correct, and we feel that HMP Downview, with the separate E wing, which is on the estate but not part of the general women’s estate, is the solution. It does work and it is working, as is shown in the data. There has been no change in the requirement that E wing prisoners must remain under constant supervision at all times, but there has been a change in relation to who provides the supervision. Following that change, a dedicated prison officer now escorts E wing prisoners on and off the wing, and if the risk assessment deems it appropriate, the member of staff running the activities in which they participate must supervise them for the length of the activity.”
“I thank all Members for taking part in the debate, but I particularly thank the hon. Member for Reigate. This is an important subject, and while I realise how emotive it can be, I hope that my setting out the facts and assuring Members of the policy directions that exist—along with the fact that there have been zero sexual or other assaults on any female prisoner by a transgender prisoner since 2019—has made clear the balance that we seek to strike in the way in which we allocate transgender prisoners, and has also helped to add some balance to this debate. I can assure the hon. Member for Reigate that as we continue our review of transgender prisoner policies, our approach will always be to seek to ensure the safety of all prisoners, and that I seek to work with her and anyone else with an interest in this important topic.”
“The Government are considering the draft updated code closely, and if a decision is made to approve it, the Minister for Women and Equalities will lay it before Parliament. While I recognise the frustration and the desire to expedite this process, we must bring clarity to service providers. The proposed code of practice is more than 300 pages long, and it is important that the correct process is followed. The hon. Member will appreciate that getting decisions wrong could carry potentially grave consequences, endangering either the safety of biological women or that of transgender women. The Ministry of Justice is working closely with the Office for Equality and Opportunity to understand the implications of the Supreme Court ruling, and we look forward to saying more in due course.”
“We will continue to keep the policy under review to ensure that it continues to be effective. As the Hon. Member for Reigate would expect, we are reviewing all aspects of transgender prisoner policy, following the For Women Scotland Supreme Court ruling handed down earlier this year. We need to ensure that our approach remains lawful, effective and fair. The ruling confirmed that references to “sex” in the Equality Act 2010 relate to biological sex, while making it clear that protections for transgender people remain. That landmark judgment brought much-needed clarity, but the hon. Member will understand that it is imperative for everyone that we get this right. Following the Supreme Court ruling, the Equality and Human Rights Commission has submitted its draft updated code on single-sex spaces to the Government for approval.”
“My priority is ensuring the safety of all prisoners on our estate. That requires a strict regime and a strict policy. I have met far too many female prisoners who—as my hon. Friend has rightly mentioned—are victims of crime themselves, who have been through the most horrific circumstances, and who have ended up in prison when they should not have been there. They should be in women’s centres, or work should be done in the community to prevent them from reoffending. Prison is not the right place for the vast majority of women, which is why the work of the Women’s Justice Board is so crucial. I welcome the interest in this issue expressed by all the Members who have spoken, and recognise the importance of ensuring that prisons are operating safely and effectively.”
“Let me be clear: the Government will always put national security first. Separation centres remain an essential operational tool, and we will continue to use these specialist units to protect the public from the most dangerous offenders.”
“The Deputy Prime Minister has recently announced a further £15 million investment in safety equipment, including to roll out up to 10,000 pieces of body armour to up to 500 staff trained in the use of Tasers. The Abu judgment is very fact-specific and does not threaten the integrity of the separation centres themselves. This Government take the judgment and others that were referenced very seriously. We are clear that any decision regarding segregation must comply with prison rules and human rights obligations, including under the European convention on human rights. We are working to ensure that our referral process is robust and are strengthening our ability to defend against legal challenges. Specialist staff continue to assess referrals rigorously, and placements are made only where the criteria are met.”
“The right hon. Gentleman raises a very important question. Separation centres are a vital part of our strategy to manage those who pose the most significant terrorist risk. Following the horrific attack at HMP Frankland in April this year, we took immediate action to ensure safety in our separation centres. Today, everyone is safe and a stringent regime remains in place. Our prison officers are some of the hardest-working and bravest public servants in this country. It is right that they feel safe as they work to protect the public. That is why, following the attack at Frankland, we mandated the use of protective body armour in our highest-risk units, including our SCs, for the first time.”
“We have been clear that we will not fail to act on reform of the ECHR; in fact, the sentencing Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Jake Richards)—is in Strasbourg right now having discussions with partners on a range of topics, including reform of the ECHR. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the findings of Jonathan Hall KC’s independent review of separation centres. The Government commissioned that following the attack at HMP Frankland, and Mr Hall’s report and our response will be published in due course. Let me just say, for the avoidance of any doubt, that it is the priority of this Government—as it should be of all Governments—to keep the public safe and to protect national security. This Government will always ensure that that is done.”
“The right hon. Gentleman will be well aware that I am unable to pre-empt decisions that are yet to be taken by the courts. The Government will always ensure that taxpayer money is used responsibly and effectively. On the most recent judicial review, announced just yesterday, the Government are considering all the available options, including the right to appeal. I want to put that on the record. I find it quite disingenuous that the right hon. Gentleman—the almost Leader of the Opposition—talks about leaving the European convention on human rights. If he feels so strongly about this, why did his party do absolutely nothing on it when it was in government for 14 years? The Conservatives talk about action; this Labour Government are acting.”
“As I have stated, the Government are committed to ensuring that separation centres continue to prevent those who pose the highest terrorist risk from influencing the wider prison population. That is precisely why we commissioned Jonathan Hall’s independent review following the appalling attack at HMP Frankland. Mr Hall has delivered his findings, which we and the Lord Chancellor are grateful for, and which we are considering very closely and with the utmost seriousness. We will publish the review and the Government response very shortly, but we are taking all relevant steps to ensure that our prisons and our prison staff are safe.”
“We are committed to investing in them to make sure they are safe, as I have stated, with effective body armour and better training. We are listening to them and to the governors of prisons directly about what they need, because they are the best people to identify the needs on the ground, and we are seeking to provide reassurance. I extend a hand across the aisle and offer to work with the Liberal Democrat spokesperson and his party to ensure that we get this right for the sake of everyone.”
“I thank the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for his questions and for the constructive way in which he asks them. He is right to highlight the chronic underfunding of our Prison Service and our criminal justice system over 14 years of Tory austerity. He is right that if there is a dereliction of the duty to look after our criminal justice system, this, sadly, is the result. We are slowly beginning to pick up the pieces of what was left of our criminal justice system when we came into office 18 months ago, and this is yet another example of how the previous Government failed to keep us safe and failed to invest in our Prison Service. This is the result. We realise that more needs to be done and we are committed to doing it. I pay tribute again to the brilliant prison staff and prison officers who work in intolerable conditions.”
“Friend’s question specifically, the Conservative Government, as we have already heard, left our prisons at breaking point. They were at 99% capacity, and the Law Society of England and Wales has stated that the answer to that is not leaving the ECHR.”
“My hon. Friend makes a valid point. In the past, the convention has served the victims of John Worboys, the families of the 97 killed in the Hillsborough disaster and British troops who died in Iraq, and it underpins the Good Friday agreement. It is frankly astonishing that the Conservative party, after 14 years of failing to do anything on the ECHR, seeks for us to withdraw from it, when the only other country to do have done so is Russia under Vladimir Putin. Is that the company the Conservative party wants to keep? We are working to ensure that our referral process is robust, and we are strengthening our ability to defend against any legal challenges. Specialist staff continue to assess referrals rigorously, and placements are made only when the criteria are met, but to answer my hon.”
“We are working very closely with the Home Office on this, and on our proposals regarding reform of the ECHR. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we are bringing forward legislation to clarify exactly how article 8 of the ECHR, the right to a private life, operates domestically in relation to immigration rules, to ensure an appropriate balance between the rights of individuals and the national interest. [ Interruption. ] The shadow Minister speaks from a sedentary position regarding article 3. Again, we are looking at the interpretation of article 3, so that varied prison conditions or access to healthcare is not a bar to extradition or deportation. I reiterate our commitment to do everything we can to keep our national security safe. I will happily write to the right hon.”
“It is right that we equip our prison officers with the most robust security and protection possible. That is why we are working with them, with the unions and with governors to ensure that all steps are taken. I stress that it is also really important that prisoners’ mental health needs are taken into account. We have medical staff advising on the placement of prisoners within separation centres. I will happily write to my hon. Friend with further details on procurement, but I reassure him that we are doing all we can, working with our prison staff, who work in exceptional circumstances, to ensure that they feel reassured and safe.”
“I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question. I do have a can-do attitude, and I am willing to do everything we can as a Government to ensure that we get this right—that we keep our public and our prison officers safe, and keep dangerous criminals locked up where they belong. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the legal proceedings are still ongoing. I reiterate that we are looking at all options available, including the right to appeal, because we will be as responsible and effective with taxpayers’ money as possible.”
“I will not pre-empt the findings and outcome of Jonathan Hall’s review, but we believe in separation centres. They are a valuable tool, as the judgments state. We are ensuring that all our prison officers are kept safe, and once the recommendations of Jonathan Hall’s review are published and the Government have carefully considered them, I will happily speak with the hon. Gentleman, and work with him to ensure that they are followed through.”
“I echo my previous comments: we cannot pre-empt the judicial decision and we are looking at all our rights, including the right to appeal. There are select criteria for prisoners to go into a separation centre. Prisoners will be selected only if all other options have been considered. This is not the case if it is the most desirable location. They are entitled to challenge their selection and raise complaints if needed; however, as I have stated, our priority remains the safety and security of our prisons, our prison staff and the general public.”
“Separation centres were never intended for use with all terrorist offenders; they exist to separate the most pernicious radicalisers. We are achieving that aim successfully using the current separation centres’ capacity, which is kept under regular review. We are awaiting the findings of the Jonathan Hall review, and we will look closely at the judgment from yesterday’s decision to ensure that all steps are taken and that we are working with governors and prison officers on the best steps forward. We are determined to ensure that prisons are kept safe.”
“I am grateful for the extension of an offer to help. I will ensure that that is followed up with our counterparts in Northern Ireland. We will follow the evidence and do what works to keep our prisons safe. We will assess the risks of any further radicalisation in our separation centres and our prisons to ensure that that is not happening, and we will keep under review whether any individuals pose a danger through extending their views to the prison population or to the public. I look forward to working with counterparts in Northern Ireland to share knowledge and expertise to ensure that we get this right for everyone across the United Kingdom.”
“The changes would make sure that victims of crime are able to access appropriate support from the right agencies and professionals without the fear of legal consequences from an NDA, in order to cope with and recover from the impact of crime. They will pave the way for future reforms under the Employment Rights Bill and the Victims and Courts Bill. I therefore commend this instrument to the Committee.”
“Once commenced, the Victims and Courts Bill measure will repeal and replace section 17 of the 2024 Act, including the changes proposed by this instrument. This is effectively a bridging measure. However, we recognise that the Victims and Courts Bill may take time to achieve Royal Assent and to be implemented. As such, commencing section 17 from 1 October 2025 and then taking forward the changes proposed under this instrument ensures that victims can benefit from these protections without delay while work continues on passing and implementing the Victims and Courts Bill. This instrument seeks to make three technical changes to section 17 of the 2024 Act to ensure that it comprehensively achieves the policy aim.”
“That change removes unnecessary barriers and ensures that victims can seek legal advice without fear of breaching an NDA. If this instrument is approved by Parliament, the changes will apply to NDAs entered into on or after the date it comes into force. As hon. Members may know, the Government are seeking to make further changes to NDAs through an amendment to the Victims and Courts Bill that was tabled on Report in the Commons in October. The amendment will void NDAs to the extent that they seek to prevent a victim of crime, or someone who reasonably believes they are a victim of crime, from speaking about the criminal conduct to anyone and for any purpose. That measure complements an amendment to the Employment Rights Bill that provides similar protections for workers in relation to certain work-related harassment or discrimination.”
“The third and final change the instrument introduces is an amendment to the definition of a qualified lawyer in section 17(6) of the 2024 Act. Currently under section 17, victims may disclose information to a qualified lawyer for the purpose of seeking legal advice about criminal conduct. However, the definition does not include registered foreign lawyers—those who qualified outside England and Wales, but are registered with and regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority. Those lawyers can own and manage authorised law firms and, in certain circumstances, provide reserved legal services. The provision will ensure that victims can make disclosures to any regulated lawyer in England and Wales for the purpose of seeking legal advice about criminal conduct, without needing to verify where that lawyer qualified.”
“Flowing from that, the second change will amend section 17 to allow disclosures to courts and tribunals for the purpose of issuing or pursuing proceedings in relation to a decision by the authority on such claims. That makes it clear that appropriate disclosures are permitted throughout the entire legal process for pursing compensation from the schemes that the authority administers, including in the small number of cases where a compensation decision is challenged in the courts. It is vital that the Courts and Tribunals Service has access to all relevant information, and this amendment makes it clear that an NDA cannot be enforced against a victim sharing certain information with courts and tribunals in that context.”