Dr Kieran Mullan
MP for Bexhill and Battle · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I welcome the opportunity to give my personal views on this Bill, as colleagues in health have taken over responsibility for it. I have spent most of my life as someone who was highly sympathetic to the cause of assisted dying and imagined that I would support it if I ever was an MP, but that changed in 2018 when I read the Gosport War Me…”
“I will not; there is not time. While I do not seek to say that the Bill will be used in that way—to deliberately bring about an end to the lives of confused or elderly patients—my worry is about how it will insert itself into that battle in our country between the best and worst of our natures, in families, conversations and settings wher…”
“The report describes what happened to some of them. One patient was admitted for respite care but deteriorated and became confused during his stay. Staff asked permission to give him diamorphine, but his daughter refused as he was not in pain. However, his wife later agreed, and he was started on diamorphine via syringe driver.”
“It happened because the staff in that hospital and on that ward had developed a culture of prioritising convenience in looking after patients over the value of their lives.”
“I remain deeply sympathetic to the scenarios and circumstances that people have described, and I can personally foresee a situation where I would want to make use of this Bill and feel that it would benefit me, but we should not legislate for what we might want.”
“Then there is something that perhaps seems benign but is sometimes very challenging: the patients who continually call out for help again and again and again, perhaps asking for a medicine or a meal that they have already been given, and refuse to be consoled.”
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“At present, the income threshold to qualify for a publicly funded lawyer is significantly lower in the magistrates courts, at £22,305, than in the Crown court, at £37,500. JUSTICE has highlighted the severe unfairness that this creates. Individuals in full-time, minimum-wage employment, who would be eligible for legal aid in the Crown court, will find themselves ineligible in the magistrates courts. We face a reality where a defendant could be facing a two-year prison sentence while being forced to represent themselves, because they cannot afford a lawyer and do not qualify for state support. As JUSTICE warns, unrepresented defendants are often observed to receive harsher sentences, as they do not know how to mitigate.”
“The Criminal Bar Association has been blunt in its assessment, calling the extension of summary justice to cases carrying two-year terms a “recipe for rough justice”. That concern is backed by the Government’s own impact assessment, which assumes that magistrates will complete those more serious trials in just a few hours. As the CBA notes, that assumption is “clearly naïve in the extreme”. Either the cases will not receive the scrutiny they deserve, or the predicted time savings will never materialise. One of the most troubling aspects of increasing sentencing powers is the legal aid gap. Given that we were unsuccessful with amendment 53, it is important to reiterate the impact of that gap when considering the clause as a whole.”
“That expansion of power comes at a time when the system is already under immense strain in the magistrates courts, and it is the view of the Criminal Bar Association, JUSTICE, the Bar Council and others that this move is unnecessary and potentially unsafe for the integrity of our legal system. The central concern shared by legal professionals is that magistrates courts are simply not designed to handle the complexity of cases that may, at some point, carry two-year sentences. As the Criminal Bar Association pointed out in its evidence, the “practices and procedures” of those courts are “necessarily ‘summary’ in nature.” They were built for the swift disposal of what some consider to be minor offences, not for the intricate legal and factual disputes that characterise more serious crimes.”
“I oppose clause 6, which, as we have discussed, grants the Lord Chancellor the power to increase the maximum sentencing limit in magistrates courts from the current 12 months to 18 or even 24 months. While the Government present that as a necessary measure to relieve the backlog in the Crown court, we must look closely at what is being sacrificed in the name of speed. This proposal is not a minor adjustment; it is a fundamental shift in the nature of summary justice. It would allow magistrates—volunteers who have to sit only 13 days a year and who on average sit 17 to 23 days—to deprive a citizen of their liberty for up to two years.”
“If people end up being seen in the magistrates court when under the old measures they would have been in the Crown court, there will be lengthier trials and, potentially, a more expensive legal aid bill. It may not necessarily even be an issue of resource; it is just about making sure that legal aid follows the cases where they are being heard, which may well even save money.”
“Further to that point of order, Ms Jardine. I seek your guidance. We are discussing issues on which amendments were tabled, but we were unsuccessful with those amendments, so is it not perfectly legitimate for us to discuss all the consequences for the Bill that flow from the fact that the amendments were denied? The Minister may be frustrated and think that that is not a good use of time; we were previously debating things that might not have happened, but now that the amendments have failed, we know exactly what the Bill will do, so it is perfectly in order to go back through the concerns we had. That is my understanding of it.”
“The Prime Minister is suggesting that the idea that the security services had concerns about this appointment was a bolt from the blue to him two weeks ago, despite the fact it had been on the front page of a national newspaper in September. However, my question is not about the vetting file, because we all know the answer that the Prime Minister is going to give on that. This is separate from the vetting file. Was he at any stage made aware of any element of the security services raising concerns about the appointment of Mandelson?”
“There will be some back and forth about who wants what elements of this scheme and in what ways, but I think the Minister was wrong to say that our focus was on it being for everybody. I have been clear from the start that our focus was also on extending the provision for victims and their families, and not for everybody.”
“We’re grateful these steps are being taken to redress the balance that so often feels weighted against victims.” Tracey said: “After…years of relentless campaigning through the Josh Hanson Trust, this is a significant and long-awaited victory for victims’ rights. Following our extensive advocacy, the Government has agreed to transformative amendments to the Unduly Lenient Sentence (ULS) scheme. These changes represent a hard-fought victory in ensuring that families are no longer left in the dark or rushed through a traumatising process during the most painful moments of their lives. These reforms are a testament to Josh’s memory and the passion and dedication of everyone who stood with the Josh Hanson Trust. We have moved forward, but the fight for full equality in the eyes of the law continues.””
“Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Blake Stephenson), who has done a great job of advocating and lobbying on Tracey’s behalf. I am glad that the Government have been persuaded to act. They will now allow up to six months for victims and their families to make use of the scheme in certain circumstances. I want to allow space for Katie and Tracey’s words on those changes. Katie said: “It’s a relief that, in Sasha’s memory, victims and their families will have 6 months to challenge an unduly lenient sentence, and the new legal duty to be notified means every family will know their rights to be able to do so. No family should ever be left in the dark like we were, every victim deserves support.”
“I have also had the opportunity to meet Tracey Hanson. You have given us guidance on addressing visitors in the Public Gallery, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the Minister has already done it for us. Tracey has campaigned for many years on this issue, and works on victims’ behalf more generally through the Josh Hanson Trust, which is named after her son. I know that she has been supported by the Victims’ Commissioner in that work. As the Minister said, Joshua was 21 when he was murdered in an unprovoked knife attack. Tracey and I have not always seen eye to eye on exactly how the scheme should be reformed, but that in no way diminishes the incredibly vital role that she has played over many years in campaigning for improvements to the scheme. I pay tribute to my hon.”
“I also met Ayse Hussein, another member of Justice for Victims, who campaigns on behalf of her cousin, Jan Mustafa. Jan’s killer had raped, tortured and imprisoned various girls and young women. He murdered Henriett Szucs and Jan and hid their bodies in a freezer, one of top of the other. He did not receive a whole-life sentence and may leave prison one day. Again, Ayse and her family never knew anything about the scheme. I have also had the pleasure of meeting Lauren Redmond, who lost her ability to appeal a sentence purely because of errors made by the Crown Prosecution Service. When a request to appeal the sentence was placed, the Attorney General’s office asked for the relevant files. The CPS sent the wrong date to the Government, who then worked towards an incorrect timetable. As a result, Lauren was denied the right to appeal.”
“Despite all Katie’s amazing work on this issue, the scheme is not retrospective, which is something the family will have to accept. Katie was so upset about being unable to successfully appeal the sentence that she collected more than 10,000 signatures on a petition to remove the 28-day limit for appeals. The way that Katie described the situation has always stuck with me, and I have used it in discussions with Ministers and others. She said that 28 days is the amount of time we have to take something back to a shop. Someone has the same amount of time to decide whether or not they like a top that they have bought. How can we have the same test for something so serious? That measure was a cross-party one—we did not amend it when we were in government.”
“Member for Blackpool North and Fleetwood (Lorraine Beavers), who made a particularly powerful and effective speech on this matter last time it was before this House. She has been very effective behind the scenes in driving forward this change. Katie’s sister, Sasha, was murdered in 2013. This is difficult to talk about, but it is the reality of what people are going through. Aged just 16, Sasha was raped and stabbed more than 100 times, and her body was set on fire. Katie and her family believed that Sasha’s killer met the existing criteria for a whole-life order, but he was given only a minimum sentence of 35 years. In reality, that meant that there was every possibility that he would end up getting out of prison.”
“The Government’s original plan for the ULS in the Bill was not to give victims more time, but to give themselves more time. It was not on their radar, in any way, shape or form, to extend the time available to victims and their families. When we sought to amend the Bill in that respect, we were told that it was not possible and that we would have to wait for the findings of the Law Commission’s review of criminal appeals. I think the Minister must now accept that that was not true—as we knew at the time—because here we are making amendments before those findings are published. I do welcome the amendments, however. I pay tribute to those I have worked with directly, many of whom the Minister has mentioned. I have worked closely on this issue with Katie Brett from the campaign group Justice for Victims. I pay tribute to her MP, the hon.”
“The Government have agreed to a statutory duty to notify victims of the existence of the unduly lenient sentence scheme, which will mean that victims and bereaved families can easily find clear information about the ULS and about their rights in the victims code. Will the Minister clarify which body she envisages will have responsibility for that? It is important that we have some kind of plan to ensure that notification is working. I am sure that the various bodies involved would say that they like to think that everybody is told about it, but that is not the case, so how do the Government plan to ensure that whoever is given that job follows through on it? My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Sir Ashley Fox), who is no longer in his place, spoke about what the Government did or did not agree to.”
“I have had the privilege of being able to meet and work with a number of victims and their families. They explained to me clearly the pitfalls in the scheme, and drew particular comparisons between the rights and privileges of the criminals and those of victims and the bereaved, in relation both to awareness and notification of the scheme and to the time available to use it. MPs and others can refer cases to the scheme, but those most likely to have an interest in making a referral or appealing a sentence are the victims or their families, and they do not always know about the scheme. There is not much point in people having a right if they are not told about it.”
“Despite having been convicted of murder and released on parole for that offence, when he committed this second murder, he was given a second life sentence—a term that is increasingly unfit for purpose—with the prospect of leaving prison again. That was plainly wrong, and after I referred his case to the scheme, his sentence was overturned and replaced with a whole-life order, meaning that he will never be released. I have had the pleasure of speaking with Alana’s sister, Jasmine. She has told me of the importance of that outcome, which means that Mr March is serving a sentence that reflects the gravity of his crime. That demonstrates how effective the scheme can be in certain circumstances, but it does not always operate as we might want it to.”
“However, there is a strict 28-day limit within which the Attorney General is able to refer a sentence to the Court of Appeal—and, by extension, a 28-day limit within which the victim or a member of the public can refer the case. If the Court of Appeal finds that the sentence is unduly lenient, it may alter the sentence or substitute it for another. I have used the scheme on occasions when I have considered sentences to be unduly lenient, including, most recently, in relation to the horrific murder of Alana Odysseos, who was murdered by her boyfriend, Shaine March. He stabbed her 19 times when she refused to have an abortion.”
“Although it is not the subject of the debate, I join the Minister in acknowledging the campaigning by the relatives and MPs of Olivia, Zara, Sabina and Jan, which we have discussed a number of times in the Chamber as we passed specific amendments. Today we are considering two remaining provisions added in the Lords. I begin with the Government amendment in lieu of the Lords amendments on the unduly lenient sentence scheme. Many Members of this House will be familiar with the ULS and will have used it themselves. Anyone, including a victim, a relative of a victim or a member of the public, can ask the Attorney General to consider whether a sentence should be referred to the Court of Appeal as being unduly lenient. If the Attorney General considers that it might be, they refer it to the Court of Appeal for review.”
“It is a pleasure to take part in this debate on the Lords message on the Victims and Courts Bill. The Bill has been debated extensively in the other place. I thank the Lords for their care and consideration in trying to improve it, as we tried to do in the Commons. Members will know that, when the Bill was last in this House, we were sadly defeated by Labour MPs on a number of provisions relating to court transcripts, the victims code and the unduly lenient sentence scheme. Since then, the Lords have done a good job in securing concessions from the Government, including an agreement that there should be a clearer and more defined set of rights for victims of homicide abroad, which the Minister mentioned.”
“As we heard from the representatives of the criminal Bar and the circuit, we should give them a chance to try some of these things before we do something so unprecedented that will lead to a curtailment of rights. Nobody thinks that the other, positive parts of the Bill, or the measures that do not even require legislation, take away from anything else; they are just exceptionally positive things we could be doing where we do not pay some kind of price. Surely, we should try those before taking the step proposed in the Bill. Whether or not we think this step is reasonable—Labour Members have made it clear that they do—I doubt they think it will not lead to a loss in relation to jury trial rights.”
“Yes, absolutely. In the NHS, I worked on what we might call change and improvement programmes or quality improvement programmes. We worked hard to replicate the best clinical practice everywhere, but it is simply not possible to directly replicate everything that goes on in every unit, although that is not to say that we cannot do some of what goes on. As the hon. Member for Bolton South and Walkden pointed out, we are not talking about a single court; that is why I was clear about looking at this on a regional basis. I do not think that the data in any of these regions is getting better because of one court that has specific circumstances that cannot be replicated. That is why we have to show a high degree of interest in understanding what can be replicated and in trying those measures.”
“Yes, and my hon. Friend did an excellent job of pointing out that although that might have been in some non-statutory documents, we do not know, because we do not have the details. We do not know whether that was included in the impact statement or the modelling that the Government have relied so heavily on to make their case. As I have said, it is extremely important that the Minister said, on the record, that there was no lowering of the backlogs in any of the regions. The data I can see suggests that there has been a quarter-on-quarter lowering of the backlog in three regions.”
“If we were at the end of the process and had done all the things we all agree are positive and should be done, and that was the rate of return we were getting, we would be having a different debate. But we are not at the end of it; we are at the start.”
“I accept the first point. If the Minister had said, “Yes, there is a drop in the backlog in those three regions, but we tend to see that because of this,” citing the points the hon. Member made, we would be having a different discussion, but she did not say that; she said there was no drop. On the second point, the hon. Member is also right: if that rate of drop was all we were ever going to get, it would not make a material difference to the backlog. That is why I was very clear that, if we are getting a drop, in a context where everybody agrees we are very early in the process and have done a fraction of the things we could do, it is important for us to look at it.”
“Friend the Member for Reigate said, human beings in criminal cases are not neat, so we need a degree of flexibility. There is not flexibility in all parts of the system at the moment, but allowing a judge, on their own, in these types of cases, to allocate, hear the case, determine guilt and issue a sentence is unprecedented in our judicial system—”
“If that data is significantly different from the revised published data, there is sense in looking again at the methodology and seeing whether the gap between the provisional and final data can be closed. But here we are, almost a year later, and the Government have not chosen to reinstitute the publication of that provisional data. I think everyone on the Committee would benefit from seeing that data, so I would be interested to know whether that is the basis on which the Minister has said the backlogs in some regions are not going down, when in fact, from the evidence and data I have seen, they are. Our amendments are aimed at delivering a fairer system. Amendment 23 also seeks to achieve that outcome, in a more specific but equally valid way. As my hon.”
“To all of us on the Committee, on a cross-party basis, it was obvious that those courts would need to carry on for longer—why not just get on and agree that and let them run in that sustained way? There were many things we could and should have done better. That is not to say that we did not do anything or that, prior to the pandemic, our record did not compare favourably to that of the previous Labour Government. As I said, in that particular example we introduced the innovation of making the provisional data available earlier. In June, given the challenges with that data being wrong on occasion, a decision was taken to temporarily stop publication, to see if we could close that gap.”
“If we are talking purely about what happened with the backlogs, our record prior to the pandemic was an improvement on that of the previous Labour Government. That does not mean it is okay; that does not mean we say, “We did a great job,” but it is important, in balancing and understanding the debate, to know that. In terms of what we did in relation to the covid pandemic and all the challenges it posed, we had uncapped sitting days and Nightingale courts, and we took steps to try to address the backlog. I served on the Justice Committee, scrutinising what the Government were doing at that time. I was very frustrated, because we would visit Nightingale courts and one of the biggest challenges they faced was the lack of certainty about whether they would be renewed in the future. I questioned Ministers at the time about that.”
“I draw the Committee’s attention to my remarks at the outset of our proceedings: our judicial system, victims and defendants and how we manage crime in this country are my personal priorities. That is primarily the reason why I sought to be elected to this place, so I will never disagree that justice should get a higher priority than it has historically. I also pointed out that Labour Members more broadly have accepted that justice getting insufficient priority in our political system has gone on for many decades. The hon. Member for Birmingham Erdington is right in pointing out the backlogs that existed prior to the pandemic, and they were actually lower than those we inherited from the previous Government.”
“Although not intentionally, the hon. Member cut me off before I made the point I was going to make, which is that this is unprecedented in cases of this nature, with sentences of this length.”
“I covered that in earlier remarks, when I pointed out that those people are not adults, so it is a different set of circumstances. If the hon. Member is asking me to be ultra-specific—I am happy to be—what is proposed is unprecedented for cases of this nature, with adults, with these sentence lengths. That is, of course, the vast bulk of our justice system. There are lots of things that we do differently for children than we do for adults in the justice system. I am not familiar with arguments suggesting that those distinctions cannot be made, and that something we do with the youth custodial element or judicial process must therefore be perfectly acceptable with the adult estate. We do not do that.”
“Again, we talked about this before. There are degrees of fairness. Specifically on whether a defendant will get a judge who is as fair as possible in terms of representation, understanding their background and so on, I think it is less fair than a jury system. But I made it clear that other factors are given greater weight in the youth court. For example, the intimidation that a young defendant might feel in the adult court versus the youth court is given greater weight. I might think overall that the deal, so to speak, for the youth defendant is fair and reasonable, but that does not mean that I cannot say that the absence of a jury might be less fair for a youth defendant in some regards.”
“We therefore continue to press our amendment 39 and that is why I ask Labour Members to think carefully; this might not be universal, but how many of them would feel happy if they—with their previous good character, and all the damage that could happen to their reputation and income from a conviction—were not allowed to have the option of a jury trial? I cannot say for sure, but potentially some of them might feel differently then.”
“When we put that to Ministers, as I said, they say that it is perfectly fine for those people to have a trial without a jury, and that is fair. Ministers also say, however, that they are keeping jury trials for the most serious cases—but if they are keeping it for the most serious cases, they must at some level accept that it is a superior system in some way. Otherwise, why keep it for the more serious cases, as they define them? The Government cannot hold both positions coherently. Absolutely, as I said, the core issue is fairness. The Government want to have it both ways in this argument, but of course the defendants will not get to have it both ways. The defendants will just have what they are told by the judge, without any ability to exercise their rights in the way that they think is fair or consistent with the broader point.”
“We focused on the example where a first-time offender might end up with fewer rights in our judicial system than a repeat offender; in respect of, for example, loss of respect, reputation, employment or income, the person who has more at stake has their rights removed. That is a point made clearly by JUSTICE, which supports our amendment 39. JUSTICE states that the three-year threshold is likely to lead to outcomes that are seen as unfair by those within the system and by the public. Repeat offenders are more likely to qualify for a jury trial, because their previous convictions would push the likely sentence above three years, while first-time offenders committing the same offence may be denied a jury trial.”
“The Minister might think that makes it a debating point, but I think it is pretty important in politics to be intellectually coherent. We take a different view from the Government. The other point that we think is different, too, is that the proposal will not achieve the desired outcome. Even if we agreed, in theory, that the balancing exercise was correct and that the trade-off that the Government seek to achieve were a reasonable one to make against the loss of the rights that we are talking about, we do not think that the Government will get those outcomes. We therefore think that the Government’s argument is fatally flawed in two respects, which is why we continue to oppose the Bill. As I said, fairness is important.”
“To use the word that the hon. Member used at the start of her intervention, it is a balance. We in the Opposition are clear that the Government have that balance wrong, which is why we oppose the measures. As I said, the Government want to have this both ways: on the one hand, when it suits them, they say that it is a balancing exercise, but on the other hand, when we point out flaws in the balance, they say, “Everything’s fine. You would be just as happy in a trial with or without a jury.” The Government should be consistent. If the Government just said, “This is a balancing exercise. There will be some detriment to people as a result, but we believe that it is right”, and then stuck to that line, at least it would be intellectually coherent.”
“Why does the Minister think it is important that some cases remain with a jury trial? What are the material differences that she sees between a jury trial and a non-jury trial that cause her to seek to allow some to continue with a jury trial?”
“Does the Minister accept that there are elements of a jury trial—not necessarily as a whole, but some elements—that are superior to a trial without a jury?”
“The Minister points to one element of the healthcare system where the state has a greater degree of control, but does she accept that there are other aspects of the healthcare system where we allow people to override what the healthcare team want to do?”
“I have a background in healthcare. The Minister has talked about triage being led by healthcare professionals, but there is another side of healthcare where people can insist on choice. This Government have introduced Martha’s rule, where the family member can not only insist on choice, but override what the treating clinical team think is the right course of treatment. They are given a route to go around them, to call someone, to insist that they are wrong and that they fundamentally disagree with them, and to get somebody else in who will challenge what the consultant in charge of the patient thinks is right.”
“The Minister said earlier, and she just said again, that it was the test recommended by the independent review. But if we are being specific, the test that was recommended was two years. The Government have made the test three years, so it is not the test that was recommended. It is important that the Minister does not repeat that inaccurate phrase.”
“The hon. Member for Bolton South and Walkden highlighted the Post Office scandal. She talked about those involved in that case as an example of people who supported the defendants feeling that there was a risk of greater miscarriage of justice, so it is not a proposition that my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate has plucked out of thin air. Other people with direct experience of these matters think that is a risk, so would the Minister at least accept that it is a valid concern?”
“The hon. Member is doing a good job of highlighting the whole additional set of complexities of the new system. We cannot predict how those are going to pan out. She referenced the separation of what a judge will hear and what a jury will hear, to preserve the fairness of the jury’s sentiment. We are now going to be in a position to a much greater extent—it might happen in other courts and other circumstances—where the judge has to hear material that is not going to be deemed relevant to the finding, and then make a finding. I am sure that there is going to be a whole new set of case law, with challenges where defendants and potentially prosecutors will say, “That clouded the judgment. That made the judgment unsound.” There is unpredictability and greater complexity in using this system.”
“The Criminal Bar Association estimates that up to 30,000 cases will be affected. Not only is this extraordinarily unfair to those who have already elected the Crown Court, understanding that it is a jury trial, it interferes with legal certainty and runs the risk of tying the courts up in appeals, further increasing the backlogs.” I hope that the Minister can reflect, as always, on those clear views, as well as the views of thousands of other legal professionals, academics and former judges, that provisions in the Bill are not necessary to bring the backlog down, and therefore should not be enacted retrospectively. They are fundamentally unfair, unconstitutional and against the usual practices of this place when it comes to retrospective legislation.”
“Mr Robertson goes on: “This means, for all 80,000 cases in the backlog, more time—days perhaps—will have to be set aside for novel pre-trial proceedings featuring arguments about suitability and value of stolen property. There will be legal challenges to the government’s proposal that such legislation should apply to defendants who have already been charged or are awaiting trial. Applying these changes retrospectively amounts to a fundamental injustice, undermining legal certainty and the long-standing principle that individuals should be tried according to the rules in place at the time of the alleged offence.” He is right, is he not? Mr Robertson is not alone. The Bar Council says: “The application of this proposal retrospectively inevitably will face a constitutional challenge.”
“As I have said previously, Mr Robertson, the founder of the chambers that the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Attorney General all practised at—someone they surely give some weight and credibility to—is critical about this. He writes: “Those charged by police with offences currently carrying a right to elect a jury trial will go through newly devised ‘allocation proceedings’ where they will lose that right if it appears to the court to be more suitable to have a non-jury trial or if it appears to the court that the value of the property involved exceeds a sum to be set by the government.” By that, I think he means in relation to the severity of the case.”
“When the Minister is pressed on a disadvantage in one form or another of having a trial without a jury, she insists that it does not make much of a difference as they will still get a trial that, in her view, has all the merits of a trial with a jury, to some extent. We made some progress on that earlier today, when the Minister acknowledged that there is something special about a jury trial. If there is something special about it, she must surely accept that those people who do not get one are missing something special and are therefore in some way disadvantaged. JUSTICE is not alone in its criticism of the retrospective element of the proposals.”