Sarah Smith
MP for Hyndburn · Labour · United Kingdom
“The Secretary of State mentioned in his statement that part of the driver of the proposals is that he wants to do something about areas of high deprivation. However, the plans presented today would make East Lancashire one of the most deprived unitary authorities in the country.”
“Shabir Ahmed’s crimes are the worst imaginable, and we are all just horrified to learn that he has now been released. As the Government look at every option to remove this vile individual, can the Minister confirm when he expects to bring forward those options and legal solutions to this situation?”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that it would also give some comfort to my poor residents on both Ribblesdale Avenue in Accrington and Lyndon Park estate in Great Harwood, who are currently faced with the impending truth that FirstPort will shortly be their managing agent?”
“While our brave servicemen and women were defending our national interests over the weekend, today it has been reported by the BBC that Russian state operatives were linked with arson attacks on our Prime Minister. Just last week, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon was meeting Errol Musk in Russia, and the hon.”
“Today, more than ever, we need to be the change by creating those spaces, when so much in the political discourse is desperately seeking to intimidate and put off women and minority groups.”
“We must all choose to confront the climate of hostility, division and malevolence that allows this online practice to fester, which also falsely claims to offer our young people a sense of belonging or empowerment. If there is a key lesson we can take from Jo’s life, and there are of course many, it is that hope is not passive.”
The complete record
Every one of 219 lines we hold for Sarah Smith, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 2 of 5.
“I ask the Minister whether the Government will push Israel to agree to and implement a UN action plan to reduce harm to children, and ensure it remains listed in the report until that has been fully achieved. I commend the work of the Labour Government. The latest figures show that they have provided £241 million in official development assistance to the Occupied Palestinian Territories, including £154 million in humanitarian funding, between 2023 and 2025. That has enabled more than 500,000 medical consultations, food for about 647,000 people and sanitation for another 300,000. I pay genuine tribute to the important work that my hon. Friend the Minister does, and I thank him for his dedication to the region, both before coming to this place and since he has taken on these responsibilities.”
“Absolutely. I recognise my hon. Friend’s expertise: she worked in this area prior to coming to this place. Unfortunately, that statistic is no surprise, given the situation that children face in Gaza. This Parliament has repeatedly affirmed that human rights are universal, that the rights of the child are not suspended at borders or battle lines, and that international law must be upheld consistently and without double standards. The convention on the rights of the child obliges us to protect children from all forms of violence, including during armed conflict, yet in Gaza that obligation is being flouted with impunity. The United Nations continues to verify grave violations, and keeps parties that violate children’s rights on its monitoring list—a solemn reminder that we cannot look away.”
“It is welcome that Gaza’s key Rafah border crossing is gradually being reopened. According to local hospitals and the World Health Organisation, about 20,000 sick and wounded Palestinians are waiting to leave Gaza for treatment. Can the Minister inform parliamentarians what discussions have taken place with the Israeli Government on the process for the evacuation of all severely sick children now that the Rafah crossing is beginning to open? Does that allow for humanitarian and medical specialists, UN agencies and civil society organisations to gain access to the Occupied Palestinian Territories to support the unobstructed monitoring and reporting of grave violations against children?”
“Unfortunately, the official numbers no doubt do not represent the full situation yet it is devastating to hear what my hon. Friend says. His intervention also points to a broader challenge, although it is not part of this debate, about the need for the international or global human rights order at the current time, and the importance of organisations such as the International Criminal Court and the UN in upholding that order and campaigning on these critical issues. What matters now is whether we act on what the research from the UN’s children and armed conflict agenda makes unmistakably clear. Childhoods are being destroyed and places of learning, safety and sanctuary are being decimated. We need to uphold international law and be a country that is promoting peace.”
“Another important factor in support for our brave troops is the provision of military clothing. The previous Conservative Government tied us into a contract whereby about 90% of Army clothing is secured through overseas suppliers, and a significant amount is secured from China. In my constituency of Hyndburn, the home of textiles, many businesses are eager to meet the needs of our British troops. Will the Minister review this and look into whether British companies can meet those British needs?”
“This Government are clearly committed to the important agenda of devolution, but it would potentially undermine some of those efforts if in the transition phase—while we are trying to move as quickly as possible for as many areas as possible to benefit from that full devolution opportunity—a national body is undermining the local plans and those on the ground who understand the complexities of the needs of somewhere such as Lancashire. I would thank the Minister for reassurances in that regard.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Western. My remarks will be incredibly brief, ahead of the Minister’s responses. To echo some of what my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth said, as a representative of Hyndburn in Lancashire—which is currently not part of a mayoral combined authority—I look for reassurances that GBR will have regard to Lancashire’s transport authority and the local transport plans.”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that under this provision, with the right economic drivers, there could be consideration in future for family-friendly trains—a service seen in some parts of Europe, where entire carriages are set aside for toddlers and children to travel in comfort, which might no doubt also increase the comfort of passengers not travelling with children?”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that while it is easy to debate who is getting it right and who is getting it wrong, fundamentally, we require a systemic shift in how we look at the problem, which is generational and intergenerational? Everything that she is outlining shows that we are taking a systemic view, to get to the cause of these problems, so that we can finally move forward for the generations that have been let down. We did not have that approach from the previous Government.”
“All those different things are in play at this moment of time, so where do you get that confidence? The Bill is not strong enough in that area, particularly not for passenger service operators.”
“The first time that GBR says to somebody, “Take your freight train off my network because I want to run this service instead”, if we have no or very limited right to appeal, it will absolutely start to spook the market. Steve Montgomery: I know your question was about freight, but private sector investment, particularly in passenger rolling stock, is an area you have to look at and ask, “Where’s that coming from?”. We have committed to spend £500 million between buying new trains and maintaining them, and that keeps the supply chain going. We have potential future orders that we want to place, but we are again getting caught up in the mechanics of whether there will be open access, or whether we will lose our rights at any point under clause 71.”
“Keith Williams picked up his biro in 2018; you could have raised a child in the time since then, so of course business has to go on. People are making good investments and, as I said at the beginning of the panel, we are pleased with the support of this Government. What we are looking at in the Bill is whether we have a framework that will enable those investments to happen in five, 10 or 15 years’ time, under a different Administration with, potentially, a different mindset, which might be better or worse—we do not know. That question has different layers. Are we unnerved now? Yes. Is that stopping investment now? Not everywhere, but possibly in some places; other factors are at play too, of course. Will it start to impact investment? Yes, it will.”
“Q In my constituency, we have a potential site for a rail freight terminal, and I welcome the commitment to rail freight growth in the Bill. As I understand it, GB Railfreight has invested in 30 new locomotives so far, and has raised more than £218 million of debt available for capital investment. Do you not agree that that demonstrates industry confidence, and that those steps, plus the other things happening in the industry at this stage, suggests that the industry is not unnerved by the progress being made by the Government and what is currently outlined in the Bill? Maggie Simpson: The industry is unnerved by the provisions in the Bill—I have members writing letters across Government to set out their concerns—but business goes on.”
“Q I have a very short question about a slightly different area. John, I understand that you have worked across Europe and looked at different approaches across the world. In Finland, as I understand it, they have gone all out on family-friendly trains and ensuring inclusive access to trains in the widest possible sense. Is there anything we can learn from that part of the world on how we can meet the ambitions for accessible services laid out in the legislation? John Thomas: I am fairly new to the role. We are a Brussels-based organisation and we do have lots of European members. I am not familiar with the Finland example, but the European Union is going in completely the opposite direction from us. They are continuing to liberalise, opening up their markets—in the United States, in Australia, in South America—”
“Q In Hyndburn, we are less than 40 minutes from Manchester, but very proudly in Lancashire, obviously— Andy Burnham: We have no plans to annex you yet, but I will let you know if that changes!”
“I know that is quite geeky and very technical, but that is broadly where I think we need to land in terms of strengthening. GBR will set a framework that we have not had before, which should benefit every part of the country. I think that is what the Bill will do.”
“We will have a structure and a body that, almost as a minimum, seeks to deliver a good passenger journey and good access, whether that is for freight or whatever. We are starting from a stronger base and probably with greater clarity, but we have to acknowledge that different areas, such as Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, have been given powers and funding, and with that comes greater responsibility. They are all prepared to take that on and, conversely, with that they should have greater strengthening and probably deeper partnerships. I think that needs to be written into the Bill, to better define it. There are 20,000 words in the Bill, and the addition of probably only 500—about 2% of the overall text of the Bill—would make that relationship much stronger.”
“In effect, there will come a point where your constituents, Sarah, will be able to tap into the Bee Network cap and come into Manchester and then use our trams and buses at a much lower cost than might otherwise have been the case. I think that is the way to think about it: as this spreads out, in the end, it will make travel more convenient and more affordable for people everywhere. It is really just within the city region boundaries at the moment, but it will grow beyond that, and I believe that your constituents will feel the benefit in three to five years, possibly, but maybe not as immediately as others. Jason Prince: We also have to remember that the reason we are here now is that the railway system did not work. What GBR will do, through the legislation that the Government have brought forward, is bring a much stronger focus.”
“The Reform county council is trying to delay our progression towards a mayor, which is deeply frustrating because of all of the things you have outlined, and much broader things as well, about the benefits of devolution. What benefits might Hyndburn get, without being part of a mayoral authority, as the Bill currently stands? What more might we be able to do to benefit areas that are dependent on that progress before they can be talking in the way that you are today, Tracy and Andy? Andy Burnham: Obviously, from Hyndburn, people will travel to Manchester, but also to Liverpool, Preston and other places. Once you see the emergence of more integrated systems in which Hyndburn is included, travel will become more convenient and cheaper.”
“We actually had to do an audit to look at where we had accessibility to begin with, and I would encourage you to keep the pressure on that one. It is one thing to have an audit of what does and does not exist, but the next thing is to prioritise what really needs doing going forward. I think that is part of the longer-term strategy for the railway, which is in governmental hands.”
“The improvement of accessibility is mentioned at several points in the Bill as a duty or responsibility or something that is important, and as something to be taken fully into account in planning and developing investment schemes. I think the Bill actually provides greater impetus on that score, but this is a long-term thing. There are railways with platforms and track such that you have to cross over the track to get from one platform to the other, and there has been a long-term programme of investment to try to improve accessibility with things like lifts. This needs to carry on, and ideally at a faster pace. Keith Williams: One of the disappointing things for me, when I did the review, was that we did not really know what accessibility was.”
“Q I spend about four hours a week on a train with a toddler, so I know well that inclusion on our railways is not just for those with disabilities, although that is incredibly important. I am interested in whether you think that the provisions in the Bill around accessibility are strong enough and will go far enough to ensure that we have a railway that truly works for everybody, as it needs to if we are to persuade more people out of their cars and on to the railways, and as is right given the endeavour around net zero and the Government’s wider ambitions. Richard Brown: Yes, I do. There are clear duties placed on the passengers’ council, for instance, to produce standards for accessibility. Those can then be enforced by the ORR or by persuasion with GBR.”
“But, unless there is a statutory incentive for GBR to grow passenger use over time, we think it may find itself perversely and unintentionally, or at least in terms of its other duties, reducing service frequency and crowding people off the network through fares, because of the specific requirements about passenger service standards that we discussed before. I think it would be very helpful in the drafting to provide an equivalence for GBR for passengers so that is like the freightduty.”
“We think that, for consistency, and to give a statutory incentive for GBR to grow passenger use alongside its commercial incentives, there should be an equivalent duty to promote the use of the network for passengers and disabled passengers, and a separate duty for the Secretary of State to set a growth target for passenger demand over time. The Secretary of State will obviously need to determine that growth target in the light of financial circumstances, network capacity and all the other things that will determine what could realistically be achieved.”
“Q Ben, I want to come to your proposals around the duty to grow passenger use. Could it not be assumed that that runs throughout the Bill? Why do you think it is needed as an additional explicit provision? Ben Plowden: Clearly, in broad terms, GBR will be incentivised to increase passenger demand, not least because of the revenue that would flow from that, as well as its ability to deliver its other duties, such as the public interest duty. It seems odd to us that there is a difference between the way that incentive is expressed for passengers versus freights; there is a very clear requirement in the Bill to promote the use of the network for the carriage of goods and for the Secretary of State to separately set a freight growth target.”
“Putting GBR in a position where it can make those decisions, plan long term, and get some consistency to a higher and better standard is what we are hoping for, and I believe we can do that with the changes that are being made. Michael Roberts: I think at the nub of your line of inquiry is the need for inclusion in its broadest sense. However a duty is expressed around the interests that GBR needs to take into consideration, whether in the Bill or in other statutory documents, I think some consideration ought to be given to, for example, diversity in its widest sense—that is, the nine protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 rather than just necessarily one of those, important as the needs of disabled travellers are. There are needs of other travellers that also need to be taken into consideration.”
“You want to have people in the room making those decisions with you and balancing the competing the interests of different passengers, and you have to do that throughout. That did lead to—I hope this is reflected by people’s experience in Liverpool—a much better experience for disabled passengers and for the general travelling public. How much you could legislate for that I am not entirely sure, but it will have to be absolutely integral to how GBR goes about its business. The other advantage you will get through having GBR at the network-wide level is that we know that we have trains of different sizes, platforms of the wrong height—it is a mess across the network.”
“I want to stress that if accessibility provisions and things that are built in to promote accessibility are done correctly and in consultation with disabled people and other passengers, you will not have that conflict in access needs. Universal design would allow everyone to benefit from those improvements. Alex Robertson: I agree absolutely with what Emma has said and what we are trying to achieve with this. The question, and this is obviously why you are asking it, is how much you can legislate for that. We had an experience with Merseyrail developing its new trains in and around Liverpool. You completely need to engage disabled passengers throughout the process, from the specification to the design and implementation, because things that you think are possible at the beginning may lead to trade-offs later on.”
“By definition, if you want to increase the volume of travel by rail, you need to make that network meaningfully usable by the broadest segment of the population that you can. That also relates to issues around affordability that we might come back to. If GBR had a legal incentive to increase demand over time, as well as a duty to demonstrably increase accessibility over time, I think that would encourage it to think very broadly about how to get the largest number of people possible using a safer, more accessible, more reliable and more affordable network. Emma Vogelmann: In terms of true co-production, you are really looking at how to create universal design. That universal design is beneficial to everyone.”
“Q Do you think that duty could help to ensure that inclusivity is taken in the widest possible sense? I travel with my toddler, and there is a risk when I go to the toilet with him that he will hit the emergency open button and I will be exposed to the train. There is a conflict there: I absolutely recognise that disabled people need to be able to use those facilities and get support, but I also need to be able to use the train safely as a mother with a small person. How will we ensure, if we move to co-creation in how we deliver accessibility, as Alex was proposing, that we consider a slightly wider group of people—as much as disabled people are absolutely the priority—to ensure that we deliver inclusive railways? Could that duty help to provide a bit of a framework for that to be considered going forward? Ben Plowden: Yes.”
“I want to put on the record my gratitude for the leadership that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have shown on this issue as it evolves. Does she share my confusion about why Members of this House who claim to be patriots would join a party that blames NATO for starting the Ukraine war, that has a leader who admires Vladimir Putin, and that has a former leader in Wales who is serving 10 years in prison for taking Russian bribes?”
“The family of my constituent Jay Slater, who tragically lost his life last summer, have been subject to the most horrendous harassment and misinformation online while grieving their son. Sadly, it does not appear to be an isolated case, and there is evidence of the same content creators targeting multiple victims through tragedy trolling. Will the Minister agree to meet victims to explore how we can tackle this horrific abuse and give families the space they should have to grieve in peace?”
“About 38% of children in my constituency are sadly growing up in poverty. This Government are committed to ensuring the best start in life for all children, so in addition to the increase in mental health support teams in schools, does the NHS workforce plan currently address the vital need for trained specialist community public health nurses in schools?”
“I welcome the news of the UN security resolution passed last night, the establishment of the international stabilisation force and the arrangements that will follow for the board of peace and the Palestinian committee. With a record 260 Israeli settler attacks on the west bank taking place in October alone, does the Foreign Secretary agree that failure by Israel to punish such attacks is inconsistent with international law? What further steps will she take to put pressure on Netanyahu and his Government to stop these attacks?”
“Will the Chancellor join me in congratulating the great work of Red Hat, a catapult based in Hyndburn that has supported the safeguarding of over 300 jobs and the development of 46 new products? Will she meet me to consider the role of catapults in supporting economic growth in places such as Hyndburn?”
“Does the hon. Lady not recognise that personal independence payment is not a benefit paid on your ability to work—it is paid regardless—so providing that case study is perhaps not the most appropriate to making the argument she is trying progress?”
“I recently met a constituent who was made unemployed in 2020 during the covid pandemic, and she has struggled ever since to find and hold down a job. She has an autism diagnosis, and it is only since this Government started improving the system that she has had access to a disability-trained job coach, who has supported her to get some volunteering and move into a college course; she now has a job ahead of her. That is what we are doing to grasp the system and tackle its challenges.”
“Scandals have eroded trust, as bodies and public officials have misled people—and, frankly, hidden the truth—to protect themselves rather than the public. The Bill provides an opportunity to restate that public services are here to be on people’s side. My constituents, and all the communities we serve, deserve to feel safe and supported. To regain legitimacy, the public need to know that words and evidence from our public officials and bodies can be trusted. I hope that the Bill will lead to greater integrity and further person-centred reform to public services, which I know this Government are committed to building.”
“Bringing an end to that imbalance of power will support the inquisitorial nature of any legal proceedings, and, I hope, offer protection against the efforts of a public body to obfuscate, intimidate or even withhold information. I would like us to consider how we can best ensure that any learnings and recommendations from inquests or inquiries are implemented. The honesty and integrity that the Bill mandates will further help coroners to establish the facts and come to conclusions about what events or actions could or should have been prevented. Families want their painful stories to lead to change, but learning leads to change only if public bodies are made to act. I will finish on a wider cultural point. I do not think anyone would deny that public trust in our politics and public institutions is at a very low level.”
“We cannot let truth be concealed ever again. No future family should have to fight a system for answers or be retraumatised by a process that is fuelled by, as Bishop James Jones eloquently put it, “the patronising disposition of unaccountable power.” I welcome in particular the measures that go beyond the fundamental new duty of candour and offer assistance to families facing an inquest. That will ensure a parity of representation between them and the state, in cases in which a public body is to be legally represented. Let us not forget that, at the first Hillsborough inquest, families received no public funding for legal representation, while senior police officers were represented by five separate legal teams.”
“Friend the Member for Liverpool Wavertree (Paula Barker). It has been said that grief is just love persevering. The families’ pursuit for justice and truth, because of that love, has persevered through decades. The Bill will ensure a lasting legacy—on top of that which has already been built—for those who tragically did not return after simply attending a football game. It will also benefit us all, and we owe the families a deep debt of gratitude. In straightforward terms, I see the Bill as providing in statute that truth can never be discretionary—it is an intrinsic and legal duty of being in public office and public service. It has not been an easy road to get to this point. I commend the Prime Minister for delivering on a promise that he made personally, regardless of any institutional resistance.”
“It is a privilege to witness proceedings and to speak as this landmark Bill is given its Second Reading. As others have remarked, this day is a testament to the courage, resilience and awe-inspiring fortitude of the bereaved families of the 97 Liverpool fans who were unlawfully killed at Hillsborough, who shall never be forgotten. I pay tribute to the many Members of this House who have been involved—those who sit here today and others whose time here ended before they were able to see this crucial legislation. I acknowledge in particular the campaign that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool West Derby (Ian Byrne) has seen through with such courage, and the powerful speeches that we have heard, including from my right hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool Garston (Maria Eagle) and my hon.”
“I place on record my thanks to the Minister for his tireless work on the issues in the middle east. The devastation continues for Palestinian people living in Gaza, whether from the murderous intent of Hamas or from further strikes from Israel, which reportedly killed 104 people, including 46 children, overnight. Alongside that, Gaza’s healthcare system has been decimated, and it is always women and girls who end up being the worst victims in such circumstances. Does the Minister agree and will he update the House on how further aid can be directed to support women and girls in particular, and to rebuild healthcare systems in Gaza?”
“I am confident that they will make a real difference to my constituents in Hyndburn, who are rightfully frustrated that they see the same people causing the same problems, and no real solutions to the crimes that those people are committing.”
“For the Probation Service, the Bill’s provisions also include strengthened investment in community supervision, better tools for monitoring and enforcement, and clearer mechanisms for rewarding compliance. In conclusion, the Bill represents a significant advance in our justice framework, offering modernised, flexible and robust community sentencing options that strengthen public protection, shore up victim confidence, support rehabilitation and make more effective and efficient use of our resources. The new community order requirements and community requirements are central to that: by giving courts more precise, meaningful powers, they ensure that justice is done in the community as well as through custody.”
“At the same time, the reforms encourage compliance—for example, by introducing a community sentence progression scheme, under which offenders who fully comply with the requirements and complete their sentence may have their community order terminated early. There are practical benefits for communities, offenders and the Probation Service. For communities, community orders become more visible and meaningful. The added conditions reflect the reality that punishment and supervision in the community should be not lesser than custody, but different. For offenders, the structured environment of a community sentence with tailored requirements offers the possibility of real change through supervision, conditional freedom and accountability, rather than automatic imprisonment, which can increase harm and reoffending.”
“By strengthening community orders and equipping the courts with more tailored requirements, the Bill supports the case that many offenders can be managed in the community through conditions that deter, restrict and rehabilitate. For far too long, the evidence has shown that it is those changes that will tackle the ongoing problems that the courts and prisons are facing, as well as the ongoing issues with that low-level but incredibly damaging crime happening time and again in our communities. Such approaches help to reduce prison overcrowding, better align our resources, and focus custodial capacity on those who most require it.”
“Those measures reassure victims that offenders remain under meaningful restrictions and that community sentences carry real weight and oversight, rather than being a passive “watch and wait” approach. In turn, that helps to maintain public confidence in our justice system and supports the principle that people who offend should face real consequences. Furthermore, the Bill supports rehabilitation while reducing the unnecessary use of custody, which must be for the most violent and serious offenders. It complements the broader move to ensure that custody is used appropriately—not as a default for lower-level offenders, but reserved for cases where it is necessary for public protection.”
“That enhanced flexibility means that sentences in the community can be more meaningful and effective—not just a series of generic tasks, but specifically calibrated to the offender’s behaviour, the harm caused and the need to protect the public and victims. It ensures that community-based sentences are not perceived as light or ineffective, but carry real conditions and consequences. The Bill also strengthens public protection and victim confidence; in fact, bolstering protection for victims and communities is one of the key aims of the reforms. By allowing restriction zones, bans on attending premises that sell alcohol or public events, and driving prohibitions, the Bill enables courts to impose orders that explicitly guard against certain behaviours or contexts associated with risk.”
“Although we must be tough on crime, we must also tackle the root causes of crime and ensure that the system delivers for victims and stops the revolving door of our prisons that serves none of us. The reforms to the community order requirements will lead to less crime and safer streets for my constituents in a number of areas. The Bill will provide a more tailored and effective approach to punishment and rehabilitation, because courts will have expanded tools to tailor community and suspended sentence orders to better fit the individual offender, the offence and the risk posed. The Bill adds new community requirements to the list of options attached to a community or suspended sentence order, such as prohibitions on driving or attending pubs, bars, clubs or public events, and being restricted to geographic zones.”