Mr Alex Barros-Curtis
MP for Cardiff West · Labour · United Kingdom
“T4. The £15 billion warm homes plan is brilliant, because it will lift 1 million people out of fuel poverty and, as we are seeing in this heatwave, keep households cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. While that is being set up, what are the Government doing in the short term to bring down energy bills?”
“I associate myself with the comments about George Howarth, whom I knew before I came to this place. He was a brilliant man. As we saw only too clearly this weekend, the threat from Russia rears its head at all levels; it ranges from physical aggression, which we know about all too well, to mastering the art of operating in the grey zone t…”
“I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and join him wholeheartedly in standing with the victims—those here and those who are not with us.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement, and I particularly look forward to learning more about the uncrewed systems taskforce. When it comes to the Welsh defence industry, though, can he confirm that today’s defence investment plan will work in tandem with commitments that are already in train—such as the Wales defence growth deal…”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for that brilliant news, and I hope that they will focus on mathematics skills as well—I could do with some of that. Young people were left behind by the previous Conservative Government, with 13.2% in south-east Wales not in employment, education or training.”
“I congratulate all the campaigners who have brought us to this moment, including my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) and the Minister, who has really spearheaded this work in the few months that she has been in the job. She should be really proud of what she has achieved.”
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“I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. I share the concerns expressed by the shadow Minister and by my hon. Friends about inadvertently creating a loophole, which we know the tobacco industry and others will drive a coach and horses through. I understand that part of the purpose of tabling the amendments is to get reassurance and clarity on certain aspects of the Bill, but on the point she was just making, is not the relevant provision subsection (1)(a), which refers to the person “acting in the course of business”? I am sure the Minister will clarify later, but perhaps the clause deals not with medical practitioners, pharmacists or doctors, but with media agencies or companies whose reason to exist is as a business for selling media, for publishing, for design.”
“In my previous life, I worked in commercial contracts. The hon. Lady can be reassured that a typical commercial contract would require that any participant to it must adhere to the laws and applicable regulations in any jurisdiction in which the contract is governed. Regardless of the Government’s intention, which I am sure the Minister will talk about, there should be an overarching clause in most standard commercial contracts about adherence to applicable laws and regulations in the jurisdiction to which the contract applies.”
“I am grateful that the Minister will take away the point raised by the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire, discuss it with officials and come back to us. When doing so, it will be worth reflecting on the fact that, as the hon. Lady knows from her previous work, a lot of commercial contracts tend to have force majeure clauses, which may well envisage legislative changes in countries relevant to the jurisdiction of the contract that could impact the commercial value of that contract. This may not be as big a problem as some fear, but it is something to be looked at as part of this work. Of course, given that the average wealth of a Premier League club is £1.2 billion, I am sure they would survive such a clause being activated in those examples.”
“There is one further point that I wish to make. The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire and the shadow Minister were talking about the display of logos or company names on football shirts as an example of the practicalities of enforcement. Would my hon. Friend like to comment on the fact that, in European games, when teams that are sponsored by, for example, an alcoholic beverage or gambling company are playing countries where that is prohibited, the shirts of the relevant football team tend to have black tape over the logos, to prevent them from being displayed in the ground and on TV across the world.”
“While I fully understand the point and agree with what the Minister is saying, can he take away that point about the ongoing obligation and the advice? That way, people who have these types of contracts can rely on knowing whether they are or are not in breach of the Act—if, as we all hope, the Bill gets Royal Assent and becomes an Act.”
“I appreciate that, and I completely agree. Learned colleagues and others with legal training will probably remember the auspices of what Parliament can and cannot do. I appreciate that this is something the Minister will have to take away but, while fully agreeing that Parliament cannot be retrospective in the legislation it passes, is it not the case with commercial contracts that there will typically be a requirement for the parties to adhere to the laws that apply to the jurisdiction and to the parties themselves? Of course, those laws can change in the future. It is not that it is a day one obligation at the time the contract is entered into and then is never checked again. It has to be an ongoing obligation.”
“I associate myself with my right hon. Friend’s comments. Further to what he has just said, will he assure me that after 14 years of obstruction from the Conservative party, this UK Labour Government will work with our Scottish and Welsh colleagues to deliver the change that the country voted for, as part of a whole-UK approach?”
“In 2023, after the CMA blocked a particular merger, the last Conservative Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Godalming and Ash (Jeremy Hunt), said that it must “understand their wider responsibilities”. He also said: “I do think it’s important all our regulators understand their wider responsibilities for economic growth.” He was right, was he not?”
“Does there not appear to be some confusion about the motion? It clearly says that this procedural motion has to be laid before the House “for the purposes of any Act resulting from” the scrutiny and debate that is to come. If hon. Members on either side of the debate, and on either side of the House, having considered the final version of the Bill, think that it should not be agreed to for monetary reasons, will not that be the time to vote no to the Bill?”
“Although mint, menthol and fruit may be helpful cessation tools, flavours such as bubble gum are clearly aimed at children, and that is absolutely what we need to stamp out.”
“It is interesting that the hon. Lady points to that evidence, because I have actually been considering it myself, although I am not sure that I entirely agree with some of the ways that Cancer Research UK phrased it. On the point that the hon. Lady has just read out—which, for the record, is paragraph 40 of written evidence TVB18 —does she agree that it does not have to be an either/or and that it could be both? Ultimately, what I think we are particularly focused on here—setting aside the cessation point with respect to adults—is the attractiveness and the clear advertisement from tobacco companies to children, with these flavours that have absolutely no relevance to adults.”
“I agree that that sounds promising. I am sure that the Minister and his officials are all over this, but to be clear, will the Bill as drafted give them the requisite flexibility? In two years’ time, should that change have happened, could the requisite regulations be drafted to bring that into effect without needing to come back to the House?”
“The other point that I would like the Minister to explain, which has crossover with similar phraseology in earlier clauses, relates to clause 28(4) about a person who is convicted of a relevant offence becoming a persistent offender. In order to determine that they are a persistent offender, it will be important to have accurate record keeping to keep track of any persistent offences. I know this is not a new concept, but I wonder whether he could say more about that in his response. Record keeping will be critical to tackle repeat offenders. Will he ensure, whether by regulations or any other means, that different local authorities share that information? What we do not want is a persistent offender in one local authority moving to another one, setting up shop and repeating those same offences.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. I thank the Minister for explaining these clauses and I fully support them, but I have two questions pertaining to clause 28. The first question has already been asked by the hon. Members for Sleaford and North Hykeham and for South Northamptonshire and relates to clause 28(2)(c). Could the Minister explain the interaction between that paragraph and the offences created under clauses 3 and 12? Perhaps this is a catch-all provision, or some hangover from the section that the clause is based on and seeks to replace, which is section 12B of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933.”
“I appreciate that the hon. Member for Eastleigh is perhaps in the invidious position of having to talk about something that is not the amendment she originally authored, but I share the shadow Minister’s concern. I note that the current drafting of clause 38 has respect for the devolved position. I am the Member for Cardiff West, so I take a particular interest in the Welsh Consolidated Fund. I am concerned that amendment 2 would replace those words with “the relevant Local Health and Wellbeing Board”, so it does not take into account the devolved position with respect to Wales. I therefore suggest that the amendment be withdrawn.”
“I agree that clause 45 is really important, for reasons that have been discussed by Members on both sides of the Committee. As has been said throughout, the tobacco industry will find a way if we do not make these measures as watertight as possible. In respect of subsection (3), which relates to the devolved elements, can the Minister reassure me that in his conversations with the Welsh Ministers they have shared his zeal to ensure that these measures are as robust and future-proof as possible?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. The Conservatives are doing another faux outrage, as they were the ones who ceded the airspace after 14 years of colossal failure in our justice system. What lessons can we learn from that failure so that we tackle the problem of drugs in prisons, which are a big driver of drone drops?”
“Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford, on which the shadow Minister is expanding, for which I am grateful, we heard evidence on the question of proportionality from National Trading Standards on Tuesday. The witnesses said that they would not necessarily levy the highest fines in the case of first-time offenders. Building on what my hon. Friend said, I am struggling to see the purpose of the amendment, given that the people who will engage with this measure, National Trading Standards, are very clear that they will employ exactly what the shadow Minister is concerned about—proportionality—in the case of, for example, a first-time offender.”
“At this moment, I think the provisions within the Bill represent a proportionate and reasonable approach with the flexibility that exists within it to be able to respond as new evidence develops, either towards or against the harms that are associated with vaping. I think it is proportionate in that it maintains vaping as a potential tool in the armoury to help people to stop smoking, but similarly it is proportionate in stopping the abhorrent marketing of vapes to children, which Sir Chris has already mentioned, and in allowing the position, which I think is correct, that if you have never started vaping or smoking, you should not. The proportionality of the provisions just now is heading in the right direction, but with the ability to flex as future evidence emerges.”
“Therefore, should the Bill not go further in terms of putting in more stringent requirements in that regard, until we have confidence in the impact on public health across all our four nations? Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: It is very difficult to disentangle the evidence about vaping, because so many of the people who are currently vaping are either current or ex-smokers as well. To do some form of longitudinal study that actually gets to develop the evidence base for any potential harm that is caused by vaping is difficult—although there are attempts to try to do that, such as through the Our Future Health study.”
“Q Building on what my colleague and yourselves are talking about, specifically on vaping, I am trying to drill into your confidence levels on the flexibility in the legislation, which you have been talking about. As has been indicated—you have all talked very eloquently about it—there is not as much of an evidence base when it comes to vaping, for all the reasons you have outlined. If we think of a new car or a new product in the market, it will go through a lot of testing before it is put out there, in order to ensure it is safe. I recognise that in that regard, the genie is out of the bottle. However, the evidence underpinning vaping, as regards the integrity and safety of public health, is not as rigorous.”
“The power of the legislation is its double-pronged approach: preventing people from ever smoking in the first place by raising the age of sale by one year every year, and putting in place a comprehensive package of measures alongside that to control vaping, particularly the access to vaping and the appeal of vaping for young people, to reduce uptake in those communities. All those things together, alongside—you will forgive me for saying this—the investment that will be required for smoking cessation services and to support enforcement by Border Force, HM Revenue and Customs and retailers, will be important components of the Bill’s ability to drive the change that it can make.”
“We heard earlier from ASH Wales about some really good measures that have been put in place, but without that wider context it is hard to cement the behaviour needed to move completely away from it. We need to think broadly about the whole support structure to help people to get off smoking and eventually to move away from nicotine altogether. Dr Ian Walker: I agree. The real killer in the room, if you like, is cigarettes and tobacco. There is no safe way of consuming tobacco. The alternative of smoking versus vaping is very clear; even though we do not know the long-term health implications of vapes, we know that you are much better off vaping than smoking. Having said that, of course we do not want young people and never-smokers to vape either.”
“Q Some of the evidence that has been submitted referred to the gateway effect and how there is perhaps not the evidence to suggest that there is a transition from one to the other. Are your organisations still concerned about the increase in vaping among groups who have not previously smoked cigarettes? Sarah Sleet: That is a tricky one. We know that a lot of people who use vaping to stop smoking end up dual-using for a while. Some then move on to just vaping, and some eventually move completely away from it. We seriously need a comprehensive programme for nicotine cessation and smoking cessation to support people on that journey and make sure that people who go on that journey do not come back in.”
“Q Thank you, Professor Bauld, for your evidence today. Reflecting on your wealth of experience in this area and your analysis of the Bill—with comparisons to our international partners and counterparts—are there any aspects of the Bill that you think could be further improved, noting, obviously, the difference between the previous Government’s version and this version? We heard one example from the previous panel, who talked about the fixed penalty notices. Is £200 too low a number? You may want to comment on that. But, generally, on the wider parts of the Bill, is there anything you think could be improved on to deliver the public health and other benefits that we have espoused in this session?”
“Professor Sanjay Agrawal: From my standpoint, there are the online harms—for example, through social media, gaming and music videos. It is a wild west out there—regarding both tobacco and vapes, actually—and there are lots of depictions that lure people in. There is a lot of advertising and promotion of both tobacco and vaping products. I think that that online and social media area is the one area that we could do much more with. That would strengthen the Bill further.”
“Q I think the professors have probably answered the question, but I am going to ask it anyway, based on the evidence that you have given to colleagues. Recognising that you have said you feel that the Bill strikes the right balance overall, with the different methods it is trying to employ, is there anything else that you would still like it to do? I am particularly thinking about vaping here, given that I think there is pretty unanimous agreement on the tobacco side. Therefore, just on vaping, is there any more that you think the Bill could do, not necessarily in terms of vaping as a cessation tool to support the transition from smoking, but in terms of preventing people—obviously children, but even just adults—from beginning that journey and vaping in the first place?”
“That is why we have the support of the devolved nations and the Ministers, who come from different political persuasions across Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland; we are all in one, as far as this Bill is concerned, and we have shaped it together.”
“Zubir was absolutely right to point out that it was the Scottish Labour Government that first introduced the indoor smoking ban, and we followed suit soon after, but it is really important that the four nations stand together on this, not least because some of this does require a four-nation approach in legislative terms. It also means that we can meet this ambition together, and that we are all in this together, because, for me, a health inequality in parts of Greater Manchester is just as important as a health inequality in Glasgow, Cardiff or Belfast. We need to tackle these inequalities, because they are a scourge on our society. That is why a four-nation approach, alongside the permissive nature of this Bill, means that the four nations can go forward together, but also diverge on the basis of extending consultations and so on.”
“Q Minister, could you say a bit more about why you are taking the four-nation approach? I am a Welsh MP, and we have talked about some of the positive and progressive examples that have been illustrated in Wales, which we can learn from. Is the four-nation approach one of the strengths of this Bill? Will it help to ensure that you get that world you talked about, which I suspect—although I do not want to speak for everyone—we all support? Can you say a bit more about that four-nation approach, and if that is one of the key strengths underpinning this Bill? Andrew Gwynne: It is. The four nations that make up our United Kingdom have gone at different speeds and to different depths in terms of tobacco control over recent years.”
“T9. I was encouraged by what the Secretary of State said about strengthening ties with allies. Can the Minister elaborate on the steps that he and the Department are taking to further strengthen collaboration with our European allies during 2025?”
“I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. Given Wales’s tradition and history of fuelling the UK’s energy needs, can the Secretary of State tell us what his plans are to put Wales at the heart of our energy security and net zero agenda?”
“I am grateful for the urgent question and thank the Minister for what he has said, in particular about the defending democracy taskforce. Can he assure me not only that the Government will do all they can to secure our national security but, with respect to the activities of individuals with known links to the Chinese Government and who are considered to be a national security risk, that the fullest of investigations will be done to ensure the integrity of our national security?”
“T2. Further to the successful international investment summit that my right hon. Friend mentioned earlier, which secured £63 billion-worth of investment for the UK, the First Minister of Wales, Eluned Morgan, has recently announced that Wales will hold its own major investment summit next year. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this demonstrates the power of two Labour Governments working together in partnership to deliver economic growth for the communities we represent?”
“Concerningly, however, it notes that we could run out of prison spaces by as early as November 2025. Aside from the findings of the independent sentencing review, when they come, what other steps does the Minister anticipate the Department taking to bridge the potential gap in prison places?”
“Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I was just going to refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I am a qualified solicitor, and I am also a member of the Justice Committee under the excellent chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith and Chiswick (Andy Slaughter). I thank the Minister for the statement and the commitments she has made. I must admit that my head is still spinning from the extraordinary response from the Tories’ spokesperson, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Dr Mullan), given their absolute failure over the last 14 years to build the prison places that they legislated for, so we will have no more of that hypocrisy. I welcome the publication of the 10-year prison capacity strategy, which I know the Justice Committee will scrutinise carefully.”
“I thank the Minister for the statement, and express my sympathies for those affected and my thanks to emergency and utility workers for all their efforts over the weekend. The storm was of great significance in constituencies such as mine. I appreciate what the Minister has said on the efforts and conversations between the UK Government and the Welsh Government. Can she say any more on that, and assure us that the lessons to be learned from this storm—on resilience and dealing with any future storms—will be shared with all of us in this House, as well as our colleagues in Wales?”
“In so doing, it will save many thousands of lives from the scourge of cancer and protect children from becoming hooked on vaping.”
“Although I recognise that if this Bill is passed, such powers will not be necessary in time—indeed, it will omit section 7(3) of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 from 2027 onwards—I ask the Government to consider whether it would be useful to retain the power of confiscation and expand it to include vapes for the period between now and 2027, so that our police officers have the same legal powers across cigarettes and vapes as a tool in their armoury to combat antisocial behaviour. Aside from that specific point, I reiterate my support for this important piece of legislation. Not only will it align this Parliament with the progressive actions of the Welsh Government on such important health matters; it will bolster our commitment in this place to safeguarding public health.”
“We would not allow that with any other addictive drug, and we should not allow it with vaping. In addition, the Bill does not deal with an aspect of vaping that I would be grateful for the Government to consider as the Bill continues its passage through Parliament. Currently, police officers do not have specific powers to confiscate vapes from children—a power that they do have with traditional cigarettes, pursuant to section 7(3) of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. Having spoken to South Wales police officers and police community support officers, I know that the power of confiscation is an important tool that they use to deal with antisocial behaviour in designated areas of Cardiff, but their work is neutered if they cannot confiscate vapes.”
“Although vaping can be an effective way for adults to quit smoking, vaping cannot be recommended for children, as it carries a serious risk of addiction and future harm. Accordingly, rather than being a deterrent to smoking, vaping will see more children, not fewer, being exposed to nicotine if left unregulated. That is why the measures set out in the Bill to implement a total ban on vape advertising and sponsorship, and, subject to consultation, on the sale of vape flavours that overtly appeal to children, are so important. I fully support them. This Bill is legislation that our teachers, headteachers, medical professionals and health services are all calling for. The vaping industry has been allowed to attract kids with different flavours and bright packaging.”
“Undeterred, in 2021 the Welsh Government launched their tobacco control action plan, which includes actions to protect children and young people from the dangers of vaping, such as tighter regulations on advertising and on the sale of e-cigarettes. That is a clear sign that the Welsh Government take this issue seriously, and it is our responsibility here in Westminster to support and complement those efforts. This Bill illustrates that this Government take seriously their commitment to create the first smokefree generation, and to protect children from becoming hooked on vaping. Let us be clear: vaping is not harmless. In 2023, Action on Smoking and Health estimated that 20.5% of children aged 11 to 17 had tried vaping.”
“As far back as 2016, my constituency colleague Mark Drakeford presented legislation that would have banned e-cigarette use in public spaces, but it fell owing to shameless politicking on the part of Plaid Cymru—whose Members, I note, have not been present at all for this important debate. Rather than agreeing with the Welsh Government and introducing what would have been landmark public health legislation, Plaid Cymru’s Members were joined by the Welsh Conservatives and the Members of the United Kingdom Independence party—remember them?—all of whom described it as unnecessary Government regulation. Plaid Cymru sided with the populist right in Wales to make a political point, and the people of Wales were worse off because of it.”
“This is an overdue natural step towards tackling the scourge of smoking, which claims about 80,000 lives a year in the United Kingdom. Smoking is the No. 1 preventable cause of death, disability and ill health in our United Kingdom, and it is responsible for one in four cancer deaths, killing up to two thirds of smokers. In Wales, tobacco causes 3,100 cancer cases every year, and smoking is still the leading cause of cancer there. However, cancer does not respect borders, so the Bill will serve the health interests of our entire United Kingdom. I welcome that, and I also welcome the Welsh Government’s commitment to supporting this legislation and bringing it into force in Wales from 2025. In fact, the Welsh Government have been well ahead of the curve on this issue.”
“It is a pleasure to follow such powerful contributions from Members on both sides of the House—from my hon. Friends the Members for Suffolk Coastal (Jenny Riddell-Carpenter), for Southampton Itchen (Darren Paffey), for Worthing West (Dr Beccy Cooper) and for Mid Cheshire (Andrew Cooper), and the hon. Members for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) and for Bath (Wera Hobhouse)—as well as the entire Ulster Unionist party delegation in the form of the hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann). I support this landmark legislation, which is an important step towards delivering on this Government’s manifesto commitment to ensuring that the next generation can never legally buy cigarettes, and to creating the first smokefree generation.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and for reminding the House about the first-time funding for coal tips. I notice that Plaid Cymru mentioned coal tips but could not leave the Chamber quickly enough or wait for the end of the statement. I pay tribute to the local authorities, emergency services, volunteers and all those affected by Storm Bert in Cardiff, in Rhondda Cynon Taf and across south Wales. May I ask my right hon. Friend to speak to colleagues in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology about looking carefully into the role of the Met Office? It is clear that its response was slow and that there was an underestimation of the impact of Storm Bert: it put out a yellow rather than an amber or red warning. Our constituents have been let down by this incompetence before. It cannot keep happening.”
“They are opposed to investing in and reforming our public services, which can only mean that they remain committed to continuing austerity. I do not even know where to begin with the Tories’ disgraceful position of allocating no money whatsoever to their promise to pay compensation to the victims of the contaminated blood and Post Office Horizon scandals. My constituent Sue Sparkes and others have fought this injustice tirelessly. This Budget shows the difference being made by the Labour Governments in Westminster and Cardiff, and I celebrate it.”
“I am also proud that the Budget has set aside £100 million to support steel communities, both through the transition board and through the town centre regeneration fund. For the first time ever, it allocates funding to make coal tips safe, with £25 million in new money. But let us not forget why the choices in this Budget were necessary. The Tories crashed the economy, and we had to fix it. In so doing, we have ensured that working people will not face higher taxes in their payslips, and we are increasing the national living wage by 6.7%. When we talk about choices, let us not forget the choices that the Conservatives have made. They have chosen to oppose this Budget, which means they are opposed to the investment that will grow our economy.”
“This Labour Government have chosen to invest in our public services and to end the austerity of the last 14 years. And this Labour Government have chosen to support and work with our devolved Governments, rather than denigrate them. Despite our dire economic inheritance from the Tories, the Chancellor has made some tough choices while holding true to our party’s values in delivering a Budget that supports and invests in working people throughout our regions and nations. This Budget has delivered for my constituency and for Wales more generally. This is the biggest Budget since devolution. It provides a record £1.7 billion spending boost for the Welsh Government to support public services. As a result, my constituents will see the benefits both through the Barnett formula and through direct spending.”
“It is a privilege to speak in this debate following the first Labour Budget in over 14 years and the first in 800 years to be given by a woman. This might not be an achievement that the Leader of the Opposition thinks is of any note, but I can tell her and the House that in my constituency of Cardiff West it is a proud moment, and one that women and girls in my constituency take great pride in. After 14 years of chaos and instability, this Labour Government have made their choices known in this Budget. This Labour Government have chosen to deal with the £22 billion black hole left by the Tories, and to be honest about it with the British public. This Labour Government have chosen to stabilise our economy so that we can grow our economy.”