Tristan Osborne
MP for Chatham and Aylesford · Labour · United Kingdom
“My constituents will welcome this defence investment plan, which is more than £298 billion over the next four years. Of course, BAE Systems in my constituency is part of that programme of expansion and the new jobs and opportunities it will bring for young people.”
“Although their water supply was not restricted, in effect they given a warning that it would be and had to prepare for that, and they are next to a key water supply station.”
“South East Water failed to effectively monitor its management of the only product that it distributes; it failed to maintain its assets, from pipes to supply chains and ultimately the storage areas and the places where water was secured from; it failed to invest in its infrastructure; and it failed to respond to and communicate with not o…”
“It was quite telling that when David Hinton appeared before the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, he said, “Well, we couldn’t have foreseen some of these events.” Possibly not, but that was because the company was not monitoring the very things that it needed to monitor before those outcomes occurred.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Sojan Joseph) for securing this debate, and I am also grateful for all the other debates that we have had across Parliament on this issue.”
“More broadly, it must be said that incidents occur in other parts of the country, albeit on a smaller scale, so this represents a structural failure within the sector. I welcome the Cunliffe review and some of the reforms that we are making to water regulation, so that we can take some of these issues by the horns and deal with them.”
The complete record
Every one of 339 lines we hold for Tristan Osborne, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 5 of 7.
“In many off-licences and supermarkets today, age challenge happens at bespoke counters. Individuals under the age of 18 who try to purchase vapes or tobacco-based products are challenged on their age. All the Bill will do is introduce a fixed date, which can then be assessed using any form of digital ID. It is no more onerous than what is currently happening, but it will require training and a transition period. I challenge the comments made by some opposing the measure that it is somehow unenforceable. We already enforce age restrictions on the sales of products—it already happens.”
“We know that public health measures work. Smoking is the largest preventable cause of illness and premature death in the United Kingdom, killing about 80,000 people a year. It is estimated to cost £2.4 billion to the NHS and a further £1.2 billion in costs every year, with smokers five times more likely to need social care support at home. The annual economic productivity loss adds up to £27 billion. Not only is there an ethical and social motivation behind the Bill; there is an economic one as well. Age verification was a topic of debate in Committee. I welcome Government new clause 11 and new clause 6 on age verification. Government new clause 11 introduces digital identification, and links in with Government legislation to introduce digital ID over the next five years. This is absolutely enforceable.”
“I will speak to Government new clause 11 and new clause 6 on age verification and the rising escalator, and I will challenge some of the points made about enforcement. I will also talk to new clause 13 on education and a road map to a smokefree generation, and to new clause 19, which sets annualised reporting on nicotine-based products. I will also challenge some of the Opposition’s misconceptions about trading standards and the regulatory landscape. The Bill is forward thinking and responds to an issue, but it builds on previous legislation over many years and best practice in other places and other countries to regulate and reduce smoking. We know that noble crusaders on public health have in the past taken action to clean our air, clean our water, and introduce seatbelt restrictions and food standards.”
“I appreciate that you want to guillotine speeches to five minutes, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak on the Bill and, as a member of the Public Bill Committee, to see it come before the House. I welcome the contributions of Members across the House, and the quality of the scrutiny we saw in the Public Bill Committee. I also want to reflect on the years of campaigning and service undertaken by Ministers and shadow Ministers that have brought us to this place, and on the advocacy in broadcasts and on the news of people who were smokers but who say that they never should have started. I also welcome the views of young people in my constituency who, when speaking to me at schools and colleges, have told me how vapes are becoming more pernicious and more commonplace in their lives.”
“I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his contribution. I want to take him back to his speech, when he said that he would consider an increase in age to 21 or 25. My concern is that that would introduce a two-tier adult status. If we increase the age from 18 to 21 overnight, there will be adults who previously could smoke who will then be banned from smoking for three years. I do not accept the premise that we should have two-tier adults, which is why I believe in a staged increase in smoking cessation. On new clause 13, I support the Government’s ambition to reduce smoking and I want to make it absolutely clear that this measure is part of a global standard to reduce smoking around the world. The Bill is pioneering and I urge Members to support it.”
“Of the six Education Secretaries we had between 2019 and last year’s election, did any of them propose banning mobile phones in schools—or is this the latest bandwagon from the Opposition?”
“Banning can have a cobra effect in the sense of not enabling children to learn how to manage themselves on these devices. Many of the amendments show the importance of an holistic approach to education. The Bill and the Government amendments acknowledge that academic achievement alone is not sufficient for children’s success, and that agencies and social services have a broader responsibility to support our most vulnerable. Part 1 of this Bill links holistically to other parts, which will be discussed tomorrow, on free breakfast clubs, cuts to school uniform costs, and reforms of pay and conditions. I urge all Members to support these amendments.”
“Where do we draw the line between a mobile phone and a tablet device, such as an iPad—which many children may also bring into school—that allows access to social media? Is there not a conversation to be had with social media providers and other companies about withdrawing services for those under-18, as opposed to stopping them holding the technology, especially as we know that much of this is linked to out-of-school activity as well as to in-school activity? Further debates on this topic are needed before we simply jump to a ban. There are many things that students do in schools that we might challenge, such as eating foods we do not approve of. However, we have to be careful because digital devices and digital literacy are important if children are to grow up into adults who understand the context of the digital devices they hold.”
“However, many schools already operate policies to this effect, including “no phones visible” policies during the school day, and before I could support any such proposals, I would need clarity about the professional distance in relation to any such amendment, including what would happen if a child were to be found with a phone—would that lead to an immediate suspension or expulsion—and what would happen if a mobile phone is concealed? Are teachers expected to challenge students and try to turn out their pockets, because for many professionals that would be a step too far? I would need to see real guidance before advising teachers about trying to challenge students who may not have a visible phone on them, but where there is suspicion that they have one. There also needs to be further consultation work.”
“Children placed with relatives or close family friends are able to maintain stronger emotional bonds, retain connections to their cultural identity and stay within their local communities. The clauses on which I wish the Government to go further on are those to support kinship care, and I urge them to continue to do so, working in dialogue with Back-Bench MPs, charities and third sector organisations. Lastly, on new clause 36, I want to talk from my experience as a teacher about the effective management of banning mobile phones and the safeguarding components specifically linked to part 1. As a former teacher, I know this has significant merit with issues of mental health, social media bullying and screen time causing concern, which is why I welcome the Government’s position of further research in this space.”
“Sadly, as chair of the community safety partnership in Medway, I regularly saw waves of criminality associated with some of these homes. I therefore welcome the measures to tighten up the audit and scrutiny of them by regulators. In addition, I welcome the debate raised by new clause 25 and elsewhere on kinship care in the UK. Kinship care plays a vital role in supporting children who are unable to live with their birth parents, offering them a familiar and supportive environment during a challenging time. There are over 141,000 children in kinship care in England and Wales. The benefits of kinship care are significant, and children should be offered the same redress as those in foster care.”
“This transition is a period of tumult for many young people, but our most vulnerable do not have the support of parents to help them manage it. I welcome the changes to the Housing Act 1996 to clarify that care leavers should not be considered intentionally homeless and should be supported. I also support new clauses 44 to 46, which provide much greater clarity on registered providers. In my area of Medway, many young people were placed with providers where people had serious contextual safeguarding concerns, and many of these residencies were unregistered. Unsurprisingly, these children ended up being involved with the police, and with local authorities as the environment and management of these homes was in some cases unscrutinised and poor.”
“Successive cuts have been made to the numbers of schoolteachers and those supporting children on the frontline, with many children left in contextual settings that were inappropriate, with schools constantly having to chase agencies for resolutions. Of course, we had six Conservative Education Secretaries since 2019—a revolving door that would make the average attendance officer blush. To get to the specifics, new clauses 18 to 22, tabled by the Secretary of State, will ensure clearer responsibilities on corporate parenting. I welcome the strengthened provision for care leavers, including the responsibilities placed on local authorities to support the transition of young people into adulthood and independent living.”
“I rise to support this Bill and the Government’s amendments. Specifically, I will talk to new clauses 18 to 22, on corporate parenting; new clauses 44 to 46, on kinship; and new clause 36, tabled by the Conservatives. As a former teacher in secondary schools in Kent, I believe these measures are overwhelmingly welcomed by many of my constituents, and also by professionals across social work and social care and in the education sector. Of course, the context of the Bill and the Government amendments is 14 years of cuts to many secondary schools and social care services in councils across the country.”
“Did the right hon. Gentleman say that it was a “rite of passage” for young people as young as year 6 and 7 to have a mobile phone, and that it was in the gift of their parents to decide? Last year, did he not suggest that we should wait until the guidance given by Government is fully reviewed and understood before we go for an outright ban? Why has he changed his mind?”
“We all remember the Police Federation’s “Cuts Have Consequences” campaign, and the previous Government slashed officer numbers before recruiting more officers to lower levels per capita. They slashed PCSO numbers and weakened council enforcement teams. Court delays skyrocketed. Probation was privatised, then nationalised and then privatised again. Legal aid was gutted. Prisons were left full. These reckless acts have fuelled antisocial behaviour and shattered public confidence in law enforcement.”
“I rise to support this Bill, which will provide the necessary tools to restore public confidence in law and order. As a former warranted police officer, council portfolio-holder for enforcement and chair of Medway community safety partnership, I have been working with and within my community to challenge many of the issues that this Bill will counter. I thank Kent police and Kent county council staff for all the work they do every weekend, every day and every hour to help and support our residents. However, this Bill does not come without context. For over a decade, the previous Government chipped away at our criminal justice system. They cut police funding.”
“I could not concur more. Police funding and police officer numbers have resulted in fewer fines being issued for many types of crime. In fact, the Bill will give the police more powers to challenge nuisance biking and other offences. The Bill is an absolutely necessary first step.”
“It provides our police with the powers they need to combat crime, supports our justice system to deliver fair and effective sentences, promotes greater community engagement and, most importantly, ensures that victims of crime and our communities receive the care and protection they deserve.”
“We know police officers do this every day, but we also know that the diversity of challenges they face requires new training. As colleagues have said so eloquently, domestic violence is often a hidden crime that leaves victims feeling trapped and powerless to escape. The Bill strengthens the legal framework for protecting victims by introducing new provisions for protective orders, including the ability to ban a perpetrator from returning to a victim’s home even before their trial. It also mandates better support for victims, offering increased access to legal and social services. This Bill is not just about laws; it is about lives, safer streets, protecting communities, and justice that truly serves the people. It represents a forward-thinking, balanced approach to law and order and public safety.”
“As many colleagues have mentioned, that includes child sexual exploitation, as well as exploitation and violence against women. The Bill will introduce more powers to challenge stalkers and strengthen protections against child sexual exploitation. I am a former teacher, and I had to look at safeguarding cases involving online activity on a weekly basis. Without these additional powers, it will be increasingly difficult to catch the malign influences that are harming our young people. I believe that the Bill will also enhance police transparency and accountability. It improves police training, focusing on de-escalation techniques and mental health awareness. It equips officers with the skills necessary to handle a wide range of situations with sensitivity and professionalism.”
“I welcome the measures in this Bill that will allow these vehicles to be seized, which will send a message that those who are caught with these vehicles will lose that asset immediately. Kent police called for these powers when I went on an operation in November and witnessed the cat-and-mouse tactics of perpetrators and the resources needed to impose these extremely weak penalties. Knife crime has surged since 2010 and disproportionately affects younger people. The Bill gives the police new stop-and-search powers in high-crime areas, allowing law enforcement to be much more proactive in intercepting potential threats. I welcome this measure, specifically in areas of high knife crime in the urban centres of Chatham and Aylesford. The digital age has produced new avenues for crime.”
“I agree that insufficient police numbers in recent years resulted in a shoplifters’ charter under the last Government, when people were allowed to shoplift up to a set amount. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Tipton and Wednesbury (Antonia Bance) for her Westminster Hall debate last week, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst) for his ten-minute rule Bill on nuisance biking. The number of reckless bikers and boy racers who tear through our streets and churn up our parks has significantly increased in previous years. Under the previous Government, the weak section 59 of the Police Reform Act 2002 effectively allowed these bikers to get away with a slap on the wrist.”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that the section 59 legislation allowed these bikers to get away with a warning the first time, which just meant that we continued to see persistent biking crime by the same people and the police felt powerless to stop them? That was the consistent position of the previous Conservative Government; they did not listen. Does she welcome the change that is coming through in the forthcoming Crime and Policing Bill?”
“Can the hon. Member confirm which Government left taxes at a 70-year high? Can he also confirm which Government led to interest rates and inflation being at record highs, which has stung so many mortgage holders?”
“Is it not true, though, that special educational needs students are exempt from this proposal? It is not a surprise that while the Opposition are focused on the very small number who go to independent schools, we are focused on ensuring a good education for the large majority of our children in state schools.”
“Challenging violence against women and girls is an absolutely critical mission of this Government. What work is the Minister doing with the Department for Education to promote positive role models in our schools and further education colleges?”
“Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Treasury is already consulting on digital access for vaping products as part of the vaping products duty? It is already going through the process, but we are subject to the progress of that duty in the Tobacco and Vapes Bill Committee just down the corridor.”
“That initiative has not yet been mentioned, but in short, it restricts access to school streets completely during pick-up and drop-off times by using automatic number plate recognition camera technology, which reduces the volume of traffic to only the residents and businesses using that street. It dramatically improves road safety, reduces pollution and encourages active transport, so it serves as a real boon to getting kids out of the car and into a more active transport mode.”
“It is also about the conduct of parents when they are picking up and dropping off their children. In some cases, the conduct of those picking up their children is below the standard that would be expected in any other situation, which has led to other safety concerns about, for example, vehicles mounting the pavements and aggression shown towards staff in many schools, with parking assistants sent to resolve the issue. That is an increasing concern, as is the amount of pollution outside schools. Medway council has looked at a couple of schemes related to the safer streets initiative that was introduced under the previous Government. The council won £300,000 to introduce a school streets initiative.”
“I am a former teacher. The schools I have visited in my constituency, including St Katherine’s school in Snodland, Aylesford school and Walderslade grammar school, have all expressed, through their youth voice, concerns about the dangers associated with getting to school. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Chris Vince) mentioned safety, but there are broader concerns around the school run. I want to talk briefly about them, but also about some of the solutions that my council has looked at. The hon. Member for Chester South and Eddisbury is absolutely correct. Speed is a concern around schools, and I wholly endorse the 20 mph speed limit. We have introduced that around many of our urban schools across Medway, and we have seen a significant reduction in accidents. However, it is not just about speeding.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Jardine. I thank the hon. Member for Chester South and Eddisbury (Aphra Brandreth) for securing this debate. It is such an important topic, and the data has cross-country significance. She gave a powerful testimony about her own constituent and the impact on their family. That situation is replicated for many of us across our constituencies. It is deeply depressing that according to Department for Transport statistics, 14% of child fatalities on Great Britain’s roads occur during the morning school run between 7 and 9 o’clock, and 23% happen after school between 3 and 5 o’clock. Even insurance companies are now taking that account. With a 43% reduction in road collisions during the school holidays, we know that it is a significant factor impacting our constituents.”
“Will the Minister make some of those examples and case studies of school streets more widely known about to encourage our local councils to pursue that agenda so that we can see a significant reduction in accidents? Would the Minister also be keen to promote the ideas of many of our leading councils around the country about education and cycling provision, and some of the benefits of those programmes, to ensure that our children are not getting in the car every morning when they go to school?”
“I absolutely agree. In fact, the next part of the school streets programme is about increasing awareness and education within schools to ensure that they are aware that the scheme is not just about moving traffic to somewhere else, but part of an active transport strategy. Medway has introduced that initiative, which has worked very well among 12 primary schools. Kent county council has introduced a similar scheme to promote education. It encourages cycling awareness and the use of high-visibility key fobs and other items for cyclists to wear. Again, increasing education is critical. This is an important issue for many schools. I have been working with schools in my constituency to promote their knowledge and awareness of the school streets initiative, so that they can apply to the council and ask for involvement.”
“Is it not the case that this Government have, to coin a phrase, a “build, baby, build” approach—as, indeed, has been confirmed by my right hon. Friend—unlike the blockers on the opposite Benches? Can my right hon. Friend also confirm that there is an active private sector interest in the lower Thames crossing, and will he give us a timetable for its progress as soon as possible for the benefit of those living in Kent and Essex?”
“The hon. Lady is eloquently articulating the necessity of controls around advertising. Does she share my concern about the risk of creating a loophole, whereby advertising could still happen if there were warning notes on adverts? The Bill seeks to reduce any type of loophole through which an advertiser might promote vaping—with words underneath that this is a smoking cessation device—in all settings. Does she also agree that the NHS is already able to articulate smoking cessation methods to patients, without the need for brand advertising?”
“The Crown Proceedings Act 1947 specifically talks about Crown liability in this regard. It states that the Crown can have application only if it is applied to private individuals as well, so this entire conversation has already been covered in previous legislation.”
“In relation to the MHRA, we know from our brief look at the data that one in three products contains impurities. That is data that is currently provided. We absolutely accept that we need a robust regulatory environment. Is the shadow Minister suggesting that the regulator should, or should not, be the MHRA, in this case?”
“When it comes to alcohol licensing, exceptions for members’ clubs are, of course, already in statute, so we do have exceptions in other licensing regimes. Does the hon. Lady agree that the online sale of vapes, which constitutes a significant market, might also be an exception with regard to brick and mortar premises? The exceptions covered by the Bill might relate to the type of sale and the area of sale.”
“I understand that the term “cigarette paper” clearly indicates that the primary use for such an item is likely to be tobacco usage. However, it is not exclusive. As a model maker, I use cigarette papers in model making. I understand they are also used in art and in other activities. Although I am not suggesting that there are no alternative products to cigarette papers, it is not 100% exclusive. With respect, I think the clause refers to a person buying cigarette papers for another individual for a purpose other than smoking—if that can be proved. I accept what the hon. Lady is saying, but think she is stretching the point quite a lot.”
“On signs, if we accept the premise that the law is changed—as we have done in clause 1—to include a rolling scale with the date being 1 January 2009, signs will have to be updated in any event to reflect that. The current signs about being 18 would have to be removed. On the definition on the signs—tobacco products versus relevant products—is it not clearer to the public, who are going to be the purchasers of the products, if it is tobacco products? It does not preclude extra signage, which exists in many stores, of what can and cannot be purchased. While I accept the premise of the idea of relevant products versus tobacco products, for the public it would be clearer if it were tobacco products.”
“I appreciate the point that the hon. Lady is making and those that other Members have made. As I understand it, we already have a law that bans people from purchasing vapes from a customer-managed vending machine. The only vending machines that should be selling vapes are managed by someone else. Can I just clarify that that is the case, because I think there is some confusion about how people are getting these vapes at hospitals and particularly in mental health settings? I have a concern about that because it puts vulnerable people, in a sense, with an addictive product. Can I just clarify that vending machines for vapes are currently not allowed in this country, except where they are not individually customer operated?”
“The Bill says that an individual may be liable for a fine, which means that other penalties up to £2,500 may be put in place. The Bill allows flexibility around the fines that might be issued, so I am struggling to understand, now I have made that point, why we are continuing to debate this. Is it the upper figure of £2,500 that the hon. Lady is objecting to, or is it the principle that we are introducing a fine at all? I am struggling to see the overall point of this debate.”
“The question of how we would define that identity is a separate element or, perhaps, a separate amendment to the clause that may expand the list of identity that would be bona fide, but we nevertheless use the concept of identity already in many cases to purchase products. If we are against identity cards or any form of identity, how are we supposed to look at any product with regard to sales, including ones that we might be challenged on, such as when the shadow Minister was purchasing her orchid in a venue? We accept the premise of identity when we sell any licensed product at the present time, so we are merely extending the same premise.”
“May I de-aggregate the two separate, distinct points about the age that will be defined on a driving licence or passport versus the concept of having ID? On the first point, most identity documents will contain a defined birth date, which makes it easier for a retailer or sales individual to check the date. They do not contain an age, per se, but they have the date of birth, which creates an easier means of assessment. The second point about having ID is a separate, distinct issue. In some countries in Europe, they put identity cards on the back of credit or debit cards, for instance.”
“One of the challenges with introducing an age restriction of 25 is that a 19-year-old can smoke today, but that rule would suddenly take away a right that they previously had. However, the proposal on the table is for a sliding scale, whereby they will never have had the right to smoke. We are not taking away a right that someone might have had previously. Does the hon. Lady accept that there is a slight difference between having an age restriction of 25 and a sliding increase in age?”
“I think all of us were therefore thinking that the sensible thing to do, while maintaining vapes as a smoking quit aid, is to avoid a situation where people who are currently not smokers take up vapes, because they will definitely get addicted—the nicotine is there, and there is a high chance in our view that they will have harms, although the size of those harms is currently difficult to put an exact number on over time. Some people come to extreme harms quite quickly, actually, but those numbers are fortunately relatively small.”
“Certainly, should further evidence of harmful effects become available, there is the opportunity and flexibility within the Bill to look at this again. Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I would add only that it took us some decades to work out the extraordinary impact of smoking. Much of that tends to be cumulative over time, so you do not see the major effects of someone starting to smoke in their 20s till they are in their 50s, 60s and 70s. What we do not want is to be looking back in 20 years’ time and saying, “We knew these were addictive; we knew that people were smoking things.” Things that go into the lungs are much more dangerous than things you eat, for a variety of reasons. Just basing it on lab studies is not a safe way to proceed.”
“I know you will hear more about that later from other panellists. That is something that we will obviously need to continue to keep under review. The Bill provides us with the opportunity to introduce further measures, should that be required. However, in all this there is a need for balance. Obviously, the Government—and certainly the Northern Ireland Assembly, when they will be debating this in the coming weeks—will wish to ensure that there is a balance between ensuring that vapes are accessible to individuals to assist cessation of smoking and help them to quit, but also that we are guided by the evidence to ensure that any legislation that is introduced is proportionate. That is incumbent on all of us at this time.”
“Is that a reasonable assumption, given that there has been a long-standing public awareness of tobacco, versus perhaps a lack of awareness around the complexities of vaping products? Professor Sir Chris Whitty: Would Sir Michael like to go first? Professor Sir Michael McBride: Yes. Thank you for the important question. You are quite right that the evidence on the potentially harmful effects of vapes is still developing, and we are not at the stage that we are with our knowledge of tobacco. Certainly, as we have said already, the harmful effects of vapes are, and are likely to be, significantly less than those of tobacco, but are unlikely to be zero. This is an area in which there is ongoing research. The World Health Organisation has raised concerns about the potential impact, particularly in children, in terms of brain development.”