Tristan Osborne
MP for Chatham and Aylesford · Labour · United Kingdom
“My constituents will welcome this defence investment plan, which is more than £298 billion over the next four years. Of course, BAE Systems in my constituency is part of that programme of expansion and the new jobs and opportunities it will bring for young people.”
“Although their water supply was not restricted, in effect they given a warning that it would be and had to prepare for that, and they are next to a key water supply station.”
“South East Water failed to effectively monitor its management of the only product that it distributes; it failed to maintain its assets, from pipes to supply chains and ultimately the storage areas and the places where water was secured from; it failed to invest in its infrastructure; and it failed to respond to and communicate with not o…”
“It was quite telling that when David Hinton appeared before the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, he said, “Well, we couldn’t have foreseen some of these events.” Possibly not, but that was because the company was not monitoring the very things that it needed to monitor before those outcomes occurred.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Sojan Joseph) for securing this debate, and I am also grateful for all the other debates that we have had across Parliament on this issue.”
“More broadly, it must be said that incidents occur in other parts of the country, albeit on a smaller scale, so this represents a structural failure within the sector. I welcome the Cunliffe review and some of the reforms that we are making to water regulation, so that we can take some of these issues by the horns and deal with them.”
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Every one of 339 lines we hold for Tristan Osborne, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 6 of 7.
“Q This is a question specifically on vapes. You mentioned earlier that because it is a new product, there is a lack of scientific consensus on the medium to long-term effects. Are we going to see publications around this over the next five to 10 years—maybe sooner? Presumably there have been clinical trials on these products. Can you tell me perhaps the difference between the two? I accept fully the tobacco legislation; my concern is the evidence base for the vapes, and the potential for a cobra effect, where we might see people go back to tobacco-based products because they are cheaper to purchase. The second piece of evidence for this is that in the Regulatory Policy Committee report it says that it expects a 12% reduction in vaping, in a similar trend to tobacco-based products.”
“In particular, unlike the previous Bill, it allows us to regulate around product design and the size of products, so you could, for example, look to make them more expensive by changing the minimum size of the amount of liquid that could be sold. All this needs to be looked at once the Bill has passed. There is an awful lot of work to be done to calibrate around things like price, branding and so on, as the Bill passes and we move on to the secondary regulations. Sheila Duffy: Absolutely—”
“As the excise tax comes into force in October 2026—that is its planned enforcement date—the intention is to raise the tax on tobacco at the same time to maintain the price differential. That is crucial. We do want to find a sweet spot for the price of these products that makes the entry level for young people and non-smokers higher. It is a dissuasive technique so that people who do not need to be using these products do not use them. We obviously want them always to be cheaper than smoked or combusted tobacco, so that there is always that incentive for people to switch from the more harmful to the less harmful. As has been repeatedly said, there is flexibility in the legislation: it allows us to calibrate.”
“Q To go back to my earlier question on product displacement, which you have alluded to, you said there is concurrent evidence that people who are smoking are also vaping. Is there any evidence that there might be a cobra effect whereby, because we are banning disposable vapes, we are increasing the price of vaping, so you might then see people return to the product you were originally trying to get them off? Has there been any conversation in this space around what the evidence would be to show that the legislation is a success, beyond the overall reduction of smoking? Hazel Cheeseman: Currently, vapes are much less expensive than smoking, and that is the kind of gap that we need to maintain.”
“We need to work with our businesses to reduce the cost of applying for those licences, which is why we need the consultation period over the next few months, before we bring in legislation, to ensure that we have worked with our retailers, the public and our communities in order to deliver a scheme that actually works.”
“If you sell 40 vapes in one day, you have paid your fine. Some retailers—very few, because the vast majority are scrupulous—will take the view that they could sell more vapes to under-age people and those they should not be selling to, and pay that £100 fine within 10 days. So yes, we view it as too low. We would like to see a review brought in within a year to see whether it should be increased. If we can align the cost of licensing fees with alcohol licensing, that would enable us to find a way to reduce the burden, because the vast majority of people who are selling alcohol are also selling tobacco.”
“Q My first question is on the enforcement element. We have had some correspondence and feedback that the £200 level is too low. I wonder whether councils or the Local Government Association have a view on the appropriate level. Conversely, if the level were too high, it would potentially damage high streets by loss of trade and shops closing because of fear. Is there a worry in the local government community that we could see high street shops closing as a result of enforcement? Again, those are some of the comments coming out of the correspondence we have received. David Fothergill: I will take the fines element first and then talk about the cost of licensing for those retailers. A fine of £200 is quite a low figure. I think it was £100 previously, so it has been increased. If you pay within 10 days, it goes from £200 to £100.”
“If we can keep that balance to show that vaping is a good option for cessation and is more affordable than cessation, while we keep doing the research on it, I would be optimistic that we are not going to see masses of smokers who are currently vaping to cut down just switch back to smoking in its entirety—hopefully.”
“We have got a distance to run on that, and anything that the Bill can do to assist that would be welcome. On whether people who are dual using, which is a significant proportion of smokers, are more likely to switch to smoking if we take action on, for example, removing point-of-sale displays or take other measures on vaping, I am actually not sure about that. The key point is that we need to continue to make smoking more expensive than vaping and to make sure that we address the availability of tobacco in our environment and in different settings.”
“Has that concern been raised in academia? Professor Linda Bauld: Let me start with the first part of your question. Those data come from the Action on Smoking and Health survey covering Great Britain, which was funded by Cancer Research UK and conducted by YouGov for ASH. Those harm perceptions are really concerning to me because we do not want people who have never smoked or young people to be vaping but, from the evidence I have seen, if more of those 6 million smokers could switch to vaping, we would see health benefits. I think those misconceptions are largely driven by the media and some of the myths—the really harmful stories that get the front page. We need to deal with that and make sure that health professionals and others are empowered to give accurate advice about vaping.”
“Q I have read some of your research from Edinburgh and have two questions relating to it. First, you said that in the research you undertook two years ago 40% of smokers thought that vaping was more harmful than cigarettes. What is the evidence base for that? Based on my understanding of the industry, and from elsewhere, that seems to be quite a high proportion. Secondly, linking to the economic argument you made earlier, you are right that deprivation is key. There is more smoking in deprived communities. I have asked all the witnesses this question. Is there a concern that because of the concurrency of people vaping and smoking, the people who are doing both will move to an economically cheaper option—that is, pick up smoking again because vapes might become more expensive because of other measures that are introduced?”
“I know those conversations are happening, and I think the view is that that kind of simple identification is really important for trading standards. In terms of the 60 mg versus 20 mg, I am afraid I do not have any detailed knowledge of that personally, but I would certainly anticipate that those kinds of challenges and issues would be built into the guidance and information being put to officers and any planned training programmes once we know the final form of the Bill, the excise duty and all the other changes coming over the next few years as the Bill and other legislation progress. I am sorry that I do not have a detailed answer. Lord Michael Bichard: But we can get it for you.”
“Our limit is significantly lower than those of other major economies, so do you think that we might therefore have a problem with products perhaps coming in from other sources that are not the same as tobacco? Is that a concern for your Department? Lord Michael Bichard: I will pass that one to Wendy, if it is not unfair. On the first point, you are right that we think that that is going to make regulation enforcement easier but I will have to leave the second question to Wendy, I am afraid. Wendy Martin: Just to reinforce Michael’s point around the digital stamps, I am not close to this myself, but I know that trading standards colleagues who are operational experts in this field are working in response to the various HMRC consultations about the implementation of excise and tax stamps, and those sorts of things.”
“Q I have two questions. First, on digital taxation, I understand that under the previous Government, in March, vapes were to become digitally registered—with a digital tax—which should make it easier to identify fraud and misaligned products effectively. Is there any commentary around the implementation of that? Have you seen that come forward? Are you working with HMRC on the sort of digital tax regime around that? Do you think that that is important, in your job, to reduce fraudulent products? Secondly, in the United States, you can have products with up to 60 mg-worth of nicotine; that is a standard product in the United States. In the UK, it is 20 mg, or significantly less. Is there an awareness within trading standards of just how much we are potentially out of kilter with some of the key markets that we are aligned to?”
“Q My question is about price. In this Bill, we are looking to ban disposable vapes, which, as a former teacher myself, I used to see in toilet bowls and other exciting locations in secondary schools, sadly. Do you think that that is going to have a major impact in the form of kids perhaps not being able to afford these products, and so we will see a reduction? Do you think that the price differential is going to be an important factor? Matthew Shanks: Yes, but not on its own. It would help, but people will find a way to get something if they want it—we know that. The price hike without the education might increase other instances of unpleasantness between people, such as bullying, bribing, theft and so on. It has to come alongside education. The whole message needs to be that vaping is not something for children to engage in.”
“T5. Pharmacy First is an incredibly popular service that has allowed many residents in Chatham and Aylesford to be referred for illnesses or urgent repeat medicine supplies. Can the Minister indicate whether there warrants a further review and expansion of this offering, to include further access to medicines, including those to treat common dental conditions with bacterial infections, so that patients with these very painful emergency needs can seek immediate over-the-counter appointments?”
“T8. BAE Systems in my constituency recently announced an extra £200 million in avionics investment to support the F-35 programme, which will secure 200 extra jobs in the Warren Wood area. Will the Minister commit to reviewing our investment in our defence industry, to ensure that more jobs are secured by well-trained young people throughout the country? Will he also commit to visiting the site to witness that expansion and celebrate that success with our residents and community?”
“My area of Medway is a shining example of how creativity can transform places, generate prosperity and inspire generations, but we need to go further and faster for the future of all our citizens.”
“Will she report back on some of the changing industries of the future, specifically around gaming, games technologies and e-sports, which represent a significant growth opportunity for our economy and were recognised in the investment programme recently announced by the Government? How can we encourage colleges and schools to look at those sectors of the future and invest in them? The Local Government Association report says that for every £1 spent on arts and culture, £4 is returned to the local economy. How can we change the narrative that arts are not just a by-product of a successful economy? They are an essential part of our economy. I will finish by saying that creative education is not just a luxury; it is an absolute necessity. It enriches lives, builds communities and drives our local and national economies.”
“As an officer of the all-party parliamentary group for video games and esports, I can say that investment in games technologies and art is about not only the past, but the future, and significant revenue and numbers of jobs can be secured in those sectors. It is an economic necessity that we look at the full breadth of STEAM skills that a 21st-century economy needs. Medway in my area has a great legacy of theatre, music and production. I myself was a chorister at Rochester cathedral. We celebrate the breadth of diversity in our area, but we are being let down through our education system. I have a number of questions for the Minister. Will art be a key focus of the curriculum review so that all our children can fully access such subjects?”
“In my own area, Kent county council reported that the number of creative jobs has increased by 24% in Kent over the last five years, with 35% of them in the new sectors of IT, software and computer services. None of that happens in isolation. As the hon. Member for Chichester identified, it links back to education in schools. Every actor, film maker and games designer has a foundation in our education system, yet in recent years we have seen a worrying decline in creative arts education. A recent report published by the University of Warwick indicated that between 2009 and 2023, UK funding for the arts decreased, alongside a 47% slump in GCSE entries in arts subjects. It is absolutely right that the EBacc needs to be looked at alongside the curriculum review to indicate that there is not just a fixation on STEM subjects.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) for securing this debate and for her outstanding speech. The creative arts is a topic that touches the hearts of all our communities, whatever our constituency, and has a direct impact on the economy and our identity across all our nations and regions. The Government estimate that creative industries generate £126 billion in gross value added to the economy and employ some 2.5 million people, yet sometimes people argue that there is an either/or when it comes to education and that the performing arts, and the arts in general, are not an economic contributor.”
“It is absurd to think that in 21st-century Britain, human waste is being dumped in major waterways, and that we have allowed that to be the status quo. To my colleagues in the Chamber tonight I say: support this Bill. To the people of Medway and beyond, who I represent, I say: demand better from those entrusted with your most vital resource. Together, we can build a system that works for everyone, not just for shareholders, but for families, businesses and the environment.”
“We need strong Government regulation to ensure that water companies meet their obligations, balanced with the empowerment of local governments and communities to oversee and protect their resources. The current state of our rivers is a disgrace and we need change. Let us introduce stricter penalties for water companies that fail to meet environmental standards, and push for greater investment in our infrastructure, including significant upgrades to waste water plants. The Bill is about more than just fixing a broken system; it is about creating a sustainable future for our children. Cleaner, greener rivers mean healthier communities, stronger governance means fairer water bills and better services, and a protected environment means that we can safeguard not just our wonderful wildlife, but also the quality of life for generations to come.”
“Over the last 14 years we have seen weakened regulation, a failure to invest in infrastructure, and the turning of a blind eye as water bosses pocketed millions of pounds in bonuses. It was a kind of perverse performance related pay where, it seemed to many, the higher the discharges, the greater the bonuses. Some may argue that privatised water companies are critical for investment and efficiency, that profit motives encourage innovation, and that regulation would stifle growth and deter private sector involvement. It is, however, welcome that there is some element of cross-party consensus that privatised, low-regulation industry has failed this nation. The truth lies in responsible action.”
“Watershed investigations have uncovered a cocktail of nearly 500 chemicals in our rivers, and found that the River Medway—a chalk aquifer, no less—is the joint worst most polluted river in the UK. According to the Angling Trust, chemicals detected include ketamine and fluoranthene—a very toxic compound used in pet flea repellent, which undiluted has been described as “Novichok for honeybees”, with one drop able to kill thousands and thousands of insects. I think of those who walk along the riverbanks, work on our rivers, enjoy our parks, or fish in our waters, unaware of the devastating pollution levels that were allowed under the previous Government. How can we explain to the people of Medway, or anywhere in the UK, that such practices were allowed to continue?”
“I rise to speak in support of a crucial and overdue piece of legislation: a Bill to regulate, govern, and establish special administration measures for water companies in the United Kingdom. This is not just a matter of environmental stewardship; it is a matter of public trust, local accountability, and the health of all our communities. This issue matters to all our constituents, including mine, who have expressed deep frustration with the way that water companies are managed. In 2023 alone, we witnessed 1,011 sewage dumps in the Medway catchment area—in a tidal area known for its sites of special scientific interest and RSPB nature reserves. Time and again we see news of raw sewage being discharged into our waterways, resulting in devastating pollution levels.”
“As we all settle down for Christmas, we will be watching “Mission: Impossible”, “James Bond”, “Ironclad”, and perhaps even “Call the Midwife”, which were all filmed in Medway— [ Interruption. ] And also “The Great Escape”, which was not filmed in Medway, unfortunately. How can we make “Mission: Impossible” possible across our country when it comes to new films?”
“In the last financial year, the oil and gas industry made £6.1 billion in profit, despite the chuntering from Opposition Members. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Conservatives introduced the energy levy? We are simply ensuring that our oil and gas sector pays an equivalent sum, so that we can transition to a green energy future. This money is necessary for that transition to occur.”
“According to the New Economics Foundation, the previous Government’s levy raised £10.6 billion for the oil and gas industry, but the industry invested only £3.6 billion of that in new capital projects, taking the remainder as sheer profits. Does the hon. Lady agree with me that that is exactly why it was a foolhardy proposal? The profits made did not go into investing in new capital assets, but largely went into shareholders’ pockets.”
“I, too, am happy to speak with my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jen Craft) concerning my planning issues, but I am hoping that the Minister can answer the question too. Tory-led Tonbridge and Malling borough council has allowed predatory development in Burham, Eccles and Wouldham, precisely because it has not delivered a local plan over many years. Does the Minister agree that we need firm timetables for the delivery of local plans that are robust and listen to local concerns, but also that training should be put in place for appeals so that taxpayers in those local areas are not burdened with fines?”
“T8. Last week, I listened earnestly to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster at the cyber-security conference, which was timely, given that my local council was subject to a cyber-attack, possibly by a foreign actor, just in the last four weeks. What measures has he undertaken to improve cyber-security resilience in local councils and critical national infrastructure that might impact us in the future?”
“T7. Last week, the House passed the Second Reading of the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, and I was proud to walk through the voting Lobby with my hon. Friends. This Government are committed to implementing the vaping products duty, which complements the Bill, to safeguard our young people. Will the Minister confirm whether the Government are considering using a digital platform tax for that duty?”
“T7. After 14 years of cuts to local government, we see the consequences across council areas, including to my council of Medway, which suffered a 91% cut in direct support grants, coupled with a financial inheritance that according to the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy was “grave”. Will the Minister agree to meet me and Medway council colleagues and finance officers to discuss the support available after 14 years of austerity cuts by the Conservatives?”
“I welcome the announcement this week of respect orders and this Government’s focus on antisocial behaviour; I hope that, alongside those, this Government will focus on and challenge those who persistently fly-tip in the future.”
“As people will be aware through the news and other online sources, fly-tipping has become a significant environmental issue, with millions of pounds being spent annually on cleaning up waste and countless communities affected by the unsightly and hazardous consequences. This problem not only affects the aesthetics of the environment, but poses serious health and safety risks. In today’s debate, I hope to explore the nature of fly-tipping, its causes and consequences, and where we need further Government action. There have been regular debates on this topic in Westminster Hall over the last number of years, including recently in September. I acknowledge that all Governments have struggled with this issue and that solutions have been piecemeal, with successes but also concerns.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered Government support for local councils to tackle fly-tipping. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. We have only 30 minutes for this debate, and I am keen to take as many interventions as possible, so I am looking forward to hearing many contributions from across different sides of this Chamber. Fly-tipping is a major scourge in the local areas of many constituents, not only in my constituency, but across the country. It is the illegal dumping of waste in public or private spaces, often in areas that are designated for waste disposal.”
“I absolutely agree with the hon. Member. We are having this debate not only to discuss how we can better support local councils, but to acknowledge some of the successes of local authorities around the country where they have been challenging this issue, and hopefully to share that expertise. I agree that fines need to increase for those caught, and councils need to be given support from central Government to pursue that. One reason I am bringing forward this debate is that farmers and communities in rural areas in in my constituency have seen significant increases in fly-tipping, specifically around the villages of Wouldham, Burham and Capstone. We have had a long legacy of urban fly-tipping, but this is not just an urban blight; it also affects rural areas.”
“Secondly, we have seen a reduction in waste disposal services; in some areas, councils have had to close household waste recycling services and/or introduce charges. Thirdly, there is a lack of enforcement. Enforcement numbers have been reduced in many council areas due to local government budget cuts and the non-statutory nature of enforcement in councils. In my view there is a correlation between the enforcement potential, the reduction of staff and the increase in fly-tipping.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. Around the country, we see community payback initiatives whereby individuals who commit the crime are then sanctioned to go and clear up the mess either in that location or in parks and other green spaces. I think that restorative justice approach is absolutely a solution to this issue. Of course, this problem remains one of the biggest challenges for council enforcement departments, and the causes are multifaceted. First, there are the economic factors. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned, a key reason people engage in such behaviour is the expense of private waste management companies. People try to avoid disposal fees, and fly-tipping is a convenient alternative.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. In my local council in Medway there were seven prosecutions in 2022-23, which is extremely high and shows the success in that area, but she is right that it is not the same across the country. Environmental waste carrier licences need to be scrutinised, and where we see illegal activity on a commercial level, the Environment Agency and others need support to engage.”
“The ways of calculating these things vary, so one question I have for the Minister is whether we should have a standardised, data-driven approach to recording fly-tipping incidences.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. An element that is not mentioned is untidy land in private space, an issue that is very difficult for councils to enforce. Again, that is a non-statutory service. Some councils deal with untidy land in gardens and other private spaces, but many councils do not because of local Government cuts and reductions in funding over the last 14 years. The statistical basis for fly-tipping is complicated. Different Governments over the last 14 years have measured it in different ways. Between 2010 and 2017 we saw a significant increase, according to BBC statistics, of around 40% in fly-tipping across the country, and that has remained static in recent years.”
“To be fair, although there are no Conservative Members here for this debate, the previous Government did act, increasing fines from £400 to £1,000 under the antisocial behaviour plan, increasing court fines by £526 and abolishing local authority charges—so they were aware of the issue.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for that point. The Labour council in Ilford has very successfully led an enforcement and education campaign, with community hubs and enforcement hubs. Love Medway Hate Litter, in my area, and Love Essex are successful campaigns that challenge litter and fly-tipping, so education is critical. As a former secondary school teacher, I know it is important to get into schools early to raise awareness about the challenges of fly-tipping. The lack of enforcement is concerning. My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire and Bedworth (Rachel Taylor) mentioned the reduction in court fines issued. Their value fell in 2022-23 to £785,000 in total, which just touches the tip of the iceberg.”
“Will the Government monitor the number of fixed penalty notices and court enforcements occurring in each council area, because there is a postcode lottery in this country?”
“I have a series of questions for the Minister. The new respect orders that the Government are introducing are extremely welcome. I entirely endorse the approach undertaken by the Home Office and others to curb antisocial behaviour, including nuisance biking and other persistent behaviours. Will the respect orders include those who engage in persistent environmental crimes, or will the Minister look at other enforcement approaches? Courts can give different fines for fly-tipping, depending on the size, but many councils have a standard fine approach. Will that be reviewed to take into account the size and nature of the fly-tip to dissuade people from commercial fly-tipping?”
“Local authorities are not islands unto themselves, so it is important that Medway works with Gravesham, Swale and other local councils on cross-boundary issues. I note that my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Kevin McKenna) is sitting behind me. We also have a wall of shame in Medway, to publicise people who are conducting this environmental crime by naming and shaming those who are caught and fined. We work very closely with our probation and community payback service to ensure that those who commit the crime clear up their mess. We have increasingly used CCTV technologies in hotspot locations to catch perpetrators. Those schemes in Medway have resulted in successes in challenging fly-tipping but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Jim Dickson) said, that is not the same across all Kent areas.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend that there is a postcode lottery across the country on how councils are managing this issue. I want to celebrate the example of Medway council, my local authority, which has done outstanding work. We have introduced free bulky waste collection for residential waste, working with our contractor, to reduce the quantity of mattresses and other residential waste left on streets across the town. The Love Medway Hate Litter scheme, which followed the Love Essex programme, has raised awareness among the public. We have increased fines to the top level, and it is important that councils send a message by using Government powers to increase fines. It is right that he challenges his council leader on this matter. We also work across boroughs.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for raising the principle of the circular economy, which I entirely endorse. The linear economy that we have, which relies on waste disposal, should be challenged. I am very encouraged that, finally, the EPR guidelines that the Government are pursuing are being enacted. We should be encouraging councils to recycle, and that needs to be looked at in relation to the variations of postcode lotteries that we get. In one of the two local authorities in my area, recycling is done on a two-weekly basis, and in the other it is done weekly. Education is also needed on what can be placed in the bins as well. The producers need to be responsible for their packaging and making it recyclable, so I agree that there needs to be some work in relation to corporate interests on that.”